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Spyder ,

I wonder if he would say the same thing if Russia attacked the Vatican.

420stalin69 ,

At the rate this war is going, he might have to.

Omega_Haxors ,

Do you really think that’s a realistic scenario worth considering…?

phoenixz ,

Of course not, he’s trying to make the point that it’s easy to tell someone to surrender and give their enemy everything if it’s not your thing.

Would you surrender half your country to Russia?

Omega_Haxors , (edited )

The alternative is fight a battle you have no chance of winning, all the while the area gets completely fucked up pretty much permanently.

There was opportunity for a peaceful resolution and they turned it down because they thought they could win, then the west (which had been egging them on up to that point) suddenly fucked off to do a genocide in the middle east leaving them high and dry.

At that point you would have no choice but to admit you fucked up and would have to accept worse peace terms. This isn’t a video game where winning is the only thing that matters; people’s lives are on the line. The longer you fight the more people that die, and for what?

phoenixz ,

And what do you think will happen if they surrender? Do you really believe it will all be peace and kumbayah for the citizens? I take it you read the news so you know that kids being “reeducated” to love uncle putin, rape, killings, is all on the table.

Do you really believe Putin will actually uphold any agreements made in whichever peace treaty signed? If you do, I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Do you really believe Putin will then say “okay, this has been enough, we’re good now”?

We’re talking pretty much a “mob boss with nukes and a plan” type of person here, so yeah, you keep fighting for your freedom

Edit: unless, of course, you’re one of those tankies that love uncle putin as well.

Omega_Haxors ,

I think you need to work on your media literacy skills.

Trudge ,
@Trudge@lemmygrad.ml avatar

We’re not paying Dalai Lama to stay quiet. Have him say “to the last Ukrainian” immediately!

juchebot88 ,
@juchebot88@lemmygrad.ml avatar

I mean, it wouldn’t be the first time feudal Tibet ended up featuring in Nazi propaganda.

ksynwa ,
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Ah shit the goddamned Pope is a Russian troll

CableMonster ,

Or maybe people that think Ukraine should negotiate are actually just normal people that can analyze facts…

ShimmeringKoi ,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

It’s all good, they were kidding

gomp ,

Yeah, he’s old and didn’t use the happiest words… but the Vatican clarified he didn’t mean “unconditional surrender” and instead only meant “negotiate a peace deal”.

AFAIU (and also AFAIC - “as far as I care”) It’s not entirely clear yet if the Pope suggests that Ukraine should give up territory in exchange for peace (and what about reparations?) or if he just means “be good people and make peace” (which would be much more in line with how he usually talks). I don’t think whatever the Pope thinks will really be of much consequence given how geopolitically relevant this war is (“The Pope? How many divisions has he got?”)

This whole news/argument serves as great marketing for the TV program where the the interview will be broadcasted (which I’d assume is not unintentional)

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I love how mad this is making people.

He’s the Pope. Obviously he’s going to want peace. What the hell do people expect? He doesn’t care if land is Russian or Ukrainian as long as people stop dying. The geopolitics of the situation are simply not part of his ideology.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Interesting that he chooses to say the people having a genocide done on them need to surrender (which they’ve literally done and been shot anyway btw) and not the perpetrators of said genocide needing to stop.

Probably because the Pope is and always has been a piece of shit

Quacksalber ,

It’s like asking the people of Gaza to ‘just surrender’, when the clear goal of Netanjahu is to create as much suffering as possible.

brain_in_a_box ,

So nothing like the situation in Ukraine.

Quacksalber ,

Ah yes, because the people of Ukraine manage to defend themselves from now and because they look like russians, they can just surrender to the bloodthirsty madman invading their territory. Peak logic.

Nobilmantis ,
@Nobilmantis@feddit.it avatar

Interesting that he chooses to say the people having a genocide done on them need to surrender

Huh he didnt say this about the people in Gaza, what are you talking about?

GenEcon ,

Actually he did say the same for Gaza: vaticannews.va/…/pope-francis-angelus-appeal-ceas…

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

War crimes like the forcible transfer of children (i.e. genocide) are for the ICJ to deal with. As a religious leader his prerogative is to reduce suffering and death, by whatever means necessary.

More importantly, Russia can keep this up far longer than Ukraine and he doesn’t want us to fight to the last Ukrainian.

Aidinthel ,

Right, a smaller country can never successfully resist a larger one. That’s why Vietnam has been under US occupation (or was it French? I can never remember for some reason) all these years since Ho Cho Minh wisely surrendered to spare his people’s lives.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

A smaller neighbor is vastly different. Vietnam was on the other side of the planet for America and halfway for France. You can’t ignore that.

ShimmeringKoi ,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

The Viet Minh had the support of the people. The Kyiv regime needs to send out kidnapping squads to fill gaps in their lines. They do not have the support of the people, so their prospects for a successful insurgency are nil.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Leave it to hexbear shitlords to make shit up about Ukraine

You’re a fucking idiot spreading misinformation, and you are disgusting

GinAndJuche ,
@GinAndJuche@hexbear.net avatar

Pokemon Blue/Yellow

Omega_Haxors ,

I remember when they said they said they were going to charge Russia with war crimes and then when they investigated they found Russia wasn’t doing any war crimes, but in the process discovered they themselves were actually doing quite a few of their own. Every right wing accusation is a confession.

brain_in_a_box , (edited )

You have to remember though, this “genocide is anything when our enemies do bad things” concept of genocide is limited to Western ultra-nationalists like yourself. Obviously someone like the pope isn’t going to see it in those terms.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Ah, failed to notice I was on .ml

Hey, Dipshit, that’s not the definition of genocide I use, but keep that straw man going to feel good about your support of genocide.

Ya garbage

420blazeit69 ,

Lmao well you sure don’t use the actual definition of genocide

[T]he ICJ ruled on Friday that it will not address whether Russia violated the 1948 Genocide Convention by using what Ukraine says were trumped-up genocide charges as a pretext for the war, even if the invasion may have violated international law broadly.

Instead, the case will proceed to assess whether Ukraine committed genocide in the eastern parts of the country, as Russia claims – a matter where judges ruled that they have jurisdiction.

aljazeera.com/…/icj-rules-that-it-will-hear-part-…

GenEcon ,

Holy shit… you are completly spinning it around. Insane…

For context: the ICJ said they aren’t allowed to rule about Russia commiting a genocide. But Ukraine has asked the court to check if Ukraine did commit a genocide in eastern Ukraine, like Russia claimed. Its Ukraine asking for this investigation.

‘“In the present case, even if the Russian Federation had, in bad faith, alleged that Ukraine committed genocide and taken certain measures against it under such a pretext, which the respondent [Ukraine] contends, this would not in itself constitute a violation of obligations” under the genocide convention, the ICJ said in the ruling read out by its president, Joan Donoghue on Friday.

The ICJ, known as the World Court, said it did not have jurisdiction to rule on whether Russia’s invasion violated the Genocide Convention, or on whether Moscow’s recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk, two breakaway republics in eastern Ukraine, amounted to a breach of the convention.

But the judges said they would allow Ukraine’s request for the court to rule that there was no “credible evidence that Ukraine is committing genocide in violation of the Genocide Convention” in eastern Ukraine.’

brain_in_a_box ,

Unless you also consider the Iraq war/ Afghanistan war to be genocides, then yes, that basically is the definition you use; you certainly don’t use the actual definition.

GenEcon ,

Its pretty well documented that Russia kidnapped Ukrainian Children for ‘reeducation’. Its a text bookcase of a genocide.

Omega_Haxors ,

Unless you also consider the Iraq war/ Afghanistan war to be genocides

I mean… Lets be real here. They started the “war” on a false pretense and then killed a fuck ton of civilians.

freagle ,

A million civilians AND the birth defect rate went through the roof after the war AND they destroyed every single piece of infrastructure they could find including water and power AND they used chemical weapons like white phosphorous which is the modern equivalent of napalm

pelikan ,
@pelikan@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Well, if Pope is called “piece of shit” for calling to negotiations to prevent more people dying, then who are you, who’s ok with war going on? Entire shit?

Bremmy ,

He didn’t say negotiations, he said surrender

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

then who are you, who’s ok with war going on?

Put more words in my mouth, it makes you look so much smarter

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

This only makes sense under the assumption that if the land becomes Russian, the dying will stop. And that’s not guaranteed. Dropping down from dying to violence - that’s probably guaranteed to occur for a while if the land becomes Russian.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Why wouldn’t the dying stop? Russia is going to need as many workers as possible to rebuild and make up for military losses, on top of the preexisting population stagnation that was already dwindling their workforce. The worst case scenario imo is population transfer, and that’s not good, but I don’t see Russia being able or willing to waste a population boost from Ukraine.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

And yet there've been plenty of mass graves filled with civilians in territory that Ukraine has taken back from Russia.

Russia's been feeding their own people into meat-wave attacks that accomplish nothing but getting lots of their own inconvenient minorities and criminals killed. There's a reason they've got such an atrocious demographic problem to "fix" with kidnapped Ukrainians in the first place. It's understandable that Ukrainians would rather fight than fall under the control of such a system.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

There has to be an independent UN investigation report into the mass graves. Ukrainian investigators have a strong national interest in fabricating atrocity propaganda, just like the bullshit “investigations” getting churned out by Israel. We can’t just blindly trust either side of the war. The UN is looking into it but I’m not seeing any conclusions.

avidamoeba , (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

The sending of own working population into the meat grinder is the more interesting part of their comment. It serves as a counterexample for the claim that Russia’s need for workers would prevent them from killing more workers. If that were true, they could have stopped throwing people into the meat grinder at any point in time.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

There’s quite a difference between sending working age men off to war and just rounding them up for execution.

jol ,

Because Ukrainians wouldn’t just stop resisting.

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

Precisely. Even if the active war stops with Russia taking over Ukraine as a whole or in part, there would need to be repression against the non-conformant Ukrainian population. The fact that the Ukranians haven’t folded a long time ago and keep fighting means there’s a lot of people that would not be happy with Russian government and therefore they should be expected to resist if that happens anyway. Therefore the obvious need for repression. Therefore the continuation of dying and violence under hose conditions.

jol ,

Yip. Russia would not stop until total control of occupied regions and surroundings was obtained.

Quacksalber ,

Tell that to all the people that have been killed and will be killed under russian occupation, you maniac.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

You mean the people died because of the war?

Gosh if only there was a way to prevent that!

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yeah

Russia could stop their invasion

But bloodthirsty fucks like you think it’s cool to watch the little guys die because you’re Rock-Hard for Russia of all countries

Pathetic tankies

Quacksalber ,

People that died in torture chambers, in civilan houses that got hit by rockets, people that have been deported or incarcerated because they have been deemed to be opposedto russian occupation.
Just onesuch example is written about here: theguardian.com/…/a-murdered-writer-his-secret-di…

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Gosh if only there was a way to prevent that!

Also Israel does literally all of that and to an even greater extent, I say we declare war on Israel.

Quacksalber ,

There is, give Ukraine the ability to defend itself and push Russia out.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

That has never been the goal, at least not of the US. The goal has always been to drag the war on as long as possible to maximize the damage to Russia. That’s it.

Quacksalber ,

The goal of the Democrats in the US has been to send much more aid much sooner than the Republicans. It’s the Republicans that want to see Ukraine fail and who are dragging out this stalemate.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Biden proved that he can just do whatever he wants when he bypassed Congress to give a huge military aid package to Israel and how he’s constantly selling arms to Israel using monetary trickery to avoid needing Congressional authorization. Why doesn’t he do that for Ukraine?

Omega_Haxors ,

The moral compass of your average liberal is so fucked up the idea that people should die in large quantities for property is normal to them.

Voroxpete ,

The pope can get fucked.

freagle ,

Lol

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

More blood for the blood god as long as it’s not your blood right?

Voroxpete ,

Would you care to elaborate on what you mean by that?

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

I think it’s pretty clear what I mean by that. If you want this war to continue then go ahead and sign up for the foreign legion instead of cheering for other people to die for your entertainment.

Voroxpete , (edited )

Follow up question; do you believe that Ukrainians, as a nation, are entirely comprised of idiot children?

Because it seems to me the absolute height of arrogance to decide that the Pope, or any other political or spiritual leader, has the right to tell them whether or not its acceptable to fight for their sovereignty.

So please, do explain to me if you can, why you feel that your opinion on whether or not they should continue fighting matters more than theirs?

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

You used so many words to tell us that you’re utterly ignorant of the subject you’re opining on here. Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/9881f4d9-5023-4c4a-8379-779cc4776e1e.png

here’s how the election in 2004 went:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f081fe2a-a9fe-473b-99bc-162d4c405ae4.png

this is the 2010 election:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/1471241b-e5ee-4eec-8465-10708deb1726.png

As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/0dc6494d-a490-44a5-9038-c6c6e1e22709.png

Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.

And of course, let’s not forget how the regime the west installed in Ukraine has been abusing people of Donbas, there’s even a whole French documentary on the subject

yewtu.be/watch?v=bN68OfFKaWs

and there’s HRW statement on Ukraine using cluster munitions in Donbas as early as 2014 hrw.org/…/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munition…

Just a couple of examples of what was going on prior to 2022.

Voroxpete ,

Which is a lot of words to say that you genuinely believe you know what they want better than they do.

No country is a monolith, but ultimately if a nation’s leadership is not representing their people, that is an issue for the people of that nation to resolve.

Unless you’re proposing that “spreading democracy” to other countries in order to install the government we think they should have is actually a good idea?

yogthos OP , (edited )
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Nah, I just know a lot better than you do because I’m not the one pretending that the regime in Ukraine represents the people there. The democratically elected government that represented the people in Ukraine was overthrown back in 2014 in a violent coup backed by the west. Ukraine is literally a product of the west “spreading democracy”.

Voroxpete ,

Ah, of course. You know better because you know better. A tautology that no one can ever disprove. But should anyone dare to suggest that this position is a touch arrogant, they deserve to be ridiculed and insulted.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

No, I know better because I bothered to spend the time to educate myself and I provide sources to support what I’m saying. Meanwhile, you just spew baseless nonsense.

davel , (edited )
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Which is a lot of words to say that you genuinely believe you know what they want better than they do.

Who is this “they”? The Ukrainian oligarchs and their far-right government that are conscripting men to fight their war for them? The Azov Nazis? Or the regular working people just trying to live their lives?

CableMonster ,

What percent of the Ukrainian force is volunteer vs conscripted?

Omega_Haxors ,

ARF ARF ARF

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