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The U.S. Is Giving Israel Permission for War Crimes

The article accuses Israel of potentially committing war crimes in its conflict with Hamas, focusing on a siege on Gaza, airstrikes harming civilians, and evacuation orders. It criticizes the U.S. for not condemning Israel’s actions and emphasizes the need for diplomatic solutions. The piece argues that Israel’s approach could backfire politically and suggests that there’s no military solution to the conflict. It calls for the U.S. to exercise influence to deter such actions, asserting it’s in the interests of both the U.S. and Israel to prevent further civilian casualties and maintain regional stability.

Ace0fBlades ,

This whole situation feels like what Putin dreamed would have happened with Ukraine. A very public and brutal attack on civilians responded to with a disproportionate level of military force with the end result being the land of the initial aggressor belonging to the perceived victim.

Putin had to invent an excuse, but he would have loved a reason such as this. Combined with Israel possessing one of the foremost intelligence agencies in the world and Egypt warning of an impending attack; this feels like, if not planned, a welcome event for the current Israeli administration.

deranger ,

I thought Russia was the initial aggressor against Ukraine. Where’s the retaliatory angle in that conflict? Did Ukraine kidnap people from a music festival like Hamas?

Ace0fBlades ,

Russia absolutely is the initial aggressor in the Ukraine conflict, but emphatically insists they are responding to a threat from the Ukraine in their propaganda.

lolcatnip ,

Who cares what Russia claims? Everyone knows their grievances are entirely fictional. It’s not even a plausible fiction.

insomniac ,
@insomniac@sh.itjust.works avatar

You’re not the intended audience

prole ,

Do you think this attack on the music festival is the first thing that’s ever happened between Israel and Palestine? Surely you’re not that stupid.

Israel is an occupying force and they’re forcibly removing Palestinian civilians from their family homes. They are the aggressors. They are “Russia” in this analogy.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

What a degenerated analogy…

prole ,

Yeah, Israel has been oppressing Palestinian citizens for way longer than Russia’s recent incursions into Ukraine. Good point.

deranger ,

Are they raping civilians?

I don’t have much sympathy for Hamas after what they did to the music festival attendees. I haven’t heard of a similar thing being done by Israel, but I’m willing to listen if you’ve got some links.

breakfastmtn ,
@breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

This is such a bizarre conspiracy theory. Netanyahu will be remembered as being asleep at the wheel for the worst attack on Israel in its history – and the worst massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust. His political career, built almost solely on his ability to protect Israelis from exactly this kind of attack, is almost certainly over. His ability to obstruct his corruption trial is too. That’s extreme risk, no reward and really makes no sense at all.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Ducks ,
@Ducks@lemmy.world avatar

I hope so. He needed to go a decade ago, his time has hopefully come. Israelis should not forget that when this is over.

lolcatnip ,

It worked out great for George W Bush.

breakfastmtn ,
@breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

Apples and oranges.

Syntha ,

Latest polls show indeed a huge drop in support for Netanyahu’s party.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

I don't know, I really think it's a mix. A relatively small attack would have had a similar rallying effect without commensurate vitriol towards the ruling party. It may have been that Netanyahu believed, or chose to believe, that the impending attack would not be nearly so large or vicious as it ended up - another metaphorical bottle rocket barrage that he could use to distract from his other authoritarian undertakings.

But I do agree that any conspiracy that asserts that the current Israeli government was looking for hundreds of Israeli deaths is deluded. Clearly, they did not see or chose not to see the scale of the coming attack.

breakfastmtn ,
@breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

But in this world, Netanyahu would have to trust Hamas to stage a small attack so much that he’d have the military stand down and give them free reign for like 16 hours. Absurd. Not to mention they were already getting small attacks from Gaza and regular violence in the West Bank from the crisis they created that has spiralled out of control. Again, extreme risk for no reward. And the most certain outcome would be gaining nothing and losing his power, legacy, and freedom when caught (if he wasn’t executed for treason).

In people’s imaginations massive conspiracies are easy to pull off. In the real world, conspiracies that would necessarily involve dozens to hundreds of people (and multiple branches of government) don’t stay secret for long – especially when they’re catastrophically fucked up. It takes just one chatty Kathy, one drunk brag, one guilty conscience, one failed attempt at blackmail, one low-level conspirator who wants a book deal to topple the house of cards. Humans are nearly as bad at conspiring as they are at assessing risk.

rambaroo ,

Netanyahu openly admitted to enabling Hamas in order to delegitimize other Palestinian groups. It’s not even a conspiracy theory it’s just a fact.

breakfastmtn ,
@breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

Though vile, encouraging strong extremists relative to moderates to divide Palestinians and discredit the idea of Palestinian government is not remotely the same thing as conspiring to murder thousands of your own citizens for political gain.

(Also, he didn’t openly admit it. There’s an unconfirmed report that he said that during a 2019 meeting. Others close to Netanyahu have said that was basically the policy whether he said it or not.)

sirboozebum ,

A

breakfastmtn ,
@breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

I don’t disagree! I wasn’t disputing that it was his policy, only that he’s openly admitting it.

sirboozebum ,

All good, mate. Wasn’t having at you.

I do think he has openly admitted to his colleagues according to those articles.

xdr ,

Funny how Ukraine is being supported for the reason of “fighting occupation” that is Russia and russia bad.

At the same time, Palestine is being given collective punishment because they are terrorists for fighting for their human rights and water and food and medicine and their own homeland.

nexusband ,
@nexusband@lemmy.world avatar

Well the issue is how they fight… It’s a bit more complicated and not just black and white.

lolcatnip ,

I don’t recall Ukraine targeting civilians, even though it’s clear they could cause horrific civilian casualties in Russia if they wanted to.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

I mean Palestinians don't have an army and no means to create one. The Troubles would be a better comparison. Not perfect, but better.

floppade ,

Israel has a lot of Palestinians prisoners who were civilians and many are children. In order to get prisoners, you need prisoners to exchange. Britney Griner wasn’t brought back from Russia using money or resources but another prisoner. Palestinians have no int’l negotiating power.

So we live in a world that has made rules that criminalize Palestinians right to defend themselves. Some take desperate action, after 50+ years of violence and apartheid, and you’re judging the reaction and not the the thing being reacted to?

I don’t understand logic like this. It leads to awful communities where violent people are propped up at the expense of their victims. No one responds well to apartheid and illegal annexation.

greenmarty ,

Why bruttally murder whole families though ? Take them meat shields and retreat ASAP it gives higher success rate anyway. Why parade naked women body through the streets ? Nah their goal is to kill all Izraelis l and anyone foreing loooking or not taking part their religion.
I’m talking about Hamas not the ordinary Palestinians just tonne clear.

lolcatnip ,

Too bad Israel isn’t attacking just Hamas, or even doing a respectable job of pretending to try. As far as I’m concerned there’s little to no moral difference between Hamas and Israel’s government.

greenmarty ,

It’s for international war court to judge and not some crazy butchers (Hamas) who punished wrong people anyway.
And if you are gonna imply it won’t be just a) specifically killing kids as revenge is definitely not just, b) EU just doubbled their € budget that was already there to help Gaza . So not everyone is only supporting One side

floppade ,

I am going to respond as though you’re being sincere, but it’s hard to tell these days.

Some of the things you’re referencing were debunked. Be careful about what you accept as fact, especially when the people spreading that “fact” have a history of making up similar things to justify war. The US made up similar things about Cubans, Afghanis, Iraqis, and so on to make it easier to justify a population for war or to desensitize the population to illegal actions like water boarding.

I want to be clear that my intention and internal tone as I write this is not judgement at all. I’m just trying to zoom out a bit and ask, “Why, when they’ve done it before, would they not do it now?”

Remember that Israel and Palestine are not the only “powers” who care about this issue or its outcome. And as such, Israel and Palestine are not going to be the only ones taking action – just the ones people pay attention to while other state actors are obfuscated by the smokescreen. There is A LOT of propaganda on this issue in every direction. Every state is looking at the populations of its enemies and figuring out how it can exploit this event for its own security interests.

**With all that said, imagine being Palestinian: **

  • You’ve watched representatives advocate in front of the UN for decades. Your people still don’t have the right to vote in it, but Israel does. So the state killing your people has to right to vote to ignore your pleas on the international level. The bully state has teamed up with all many other bully states. When I say bully, I mean they use diplomacy to back smaller countries into corners and act against their own interests. Voting against them may mean your people starve for the next 5 years due to IMF loans, aide programs, etc.
  • You conclude on the international level there is no salvation coming. No one with power is helping you and actively refuses to acknowledge your people are dying, let alone who’s killing them.
  • Your grandfather died in the Nakbah (sp?), when the west forcibly eradicated 750,000 Palestinians from their homes to make room for Europeans – Jewish or otherwise. Israel made it illegal to talk about what happened to your family. It’s illegal to deny the Holocaust in many places, but it’s illegal to recognize the Nakbah in Israel. Despite it being undeniable reality.
  • Then, the state that has been systematically killing your people – the state whose own internal documents suggest they want it to be drawn out death to make it more socially acceptable and less obviously murderous – is now run by someone who enthusiastically wants to swiftly kill your people off and is trying to reach levels of power that make that possible.
  • You see the Israeli people incapable of stopping him. The ones who care about the idea of your right to life that is. The other Israelis you can see sitting on hillsides watching illegal air strikes and cheering it on like Americans and fireworks. This was something people regularly engaged in before the Hamas attack.
  • This leader ramps up operations where the IDF forcibly evicts your neighbors and family members from their homes. The checkpoints increase, walking around your own town is logistically more similar to prisoner in a US prison at this point. When the IDF says your commute to work stops, it stops. It stops multiple times a day every day. You watch people be beaten during the stops. If they fight back, they’re murdered in front of you.
  • The IDF soldiers are taking more people than they used to suddenly with their new leader. They’re taking more children and civilians. They’re intentionally bombing hospitals. You watch as leaders cry out to the international community, but for 50 years the international community has said your people are liars and deserve to die. Maybe not with its words, they haven’t said that per se, but with the actions and lack of action.
  • You live in the most dangerous part of the occupied territories (afaik), Gaza. There is no way to escape. Israel has bombed all routes out before Hamas attacked. Israel’s violence continues to escalate as the IDF protects settlers who engage in vigilante, racist violence, stealing your friends’ homes.

Every second of every day is a question of when will the Israelis hurt me next?

Again, there is NO way out. Israel is taking more space and engaging in more and more violence as they do so.

So why would they? Because Israel intentionally, as part of their ethnic cleansing strategy, gave them no way out and continued to harass them.

There is no mammal on Earth that won’t get violent at that point.

greenmarty ,

Sorry for not replying to every single point given. Due to the shear amount of text I hope it’s understandable.

My point is that dispute of the past gives no one special right to be extra cruel. Once someone starts killing babies, it no longer matter if they or their grandparents had very difficult life. They are baby killers from that point on. It’s never justified to take revenge on innocent people. Regardless of what side it is.

We are no in 1949 anymore, EU is helping Gaza for instance by humanitarian aid which they doubled these days. UN push against Izrael’s order for northen Gaza. So going to international institutions as humans rights court or war crime court of even just documenting any wrong doing is much more effective at making situation better than butchering bunch of youngsters.

floppade ,

I only gave 2 points and you didn’t respond to either. I won’t give you the benefit of the doubt this time:

  1. You’re spreading a lie, and I’m betting it’s intentional at this point. The baby killing thing was debunked and even the President had to apologize for spreading that low. The IDF even didn’t confirm it.
  2. If you were cornered in the world’s largest concentration camp and things only get worse every day, what would you do?

The mental gymnastics being done to justify genocide. They have a MILLION CIVILIANS in a cage and are bombing the shit out of them. There are NO circumstances where that is an ethical or justifiable action. It’s not hard. You just don’t want to admit you’re Darth Vader and not Luke Skywalker in this.

greenmarty ,

Thx for making it shorter this time.

  1. I do not spread lies I gave an example that should make it clear that people don’t get right to become criminals because they were wronged in the past. You can replace babies with kids/ grandmas/ women etc… Point stays.
  2. I would probably try International humans right court, International war crimes court, ask for azyl in EU, Call UN for help, document and publicized wrongdoings, Emigrade,… Probably few more… But i would not create terrorist cell, attack young people at peaceful music festival and murder families in their homes or kill daughter of one of the few Izreali who invest into Gaza and gives Palestinians work there.

Note: I’m against killing innocent people at any side of baricade but you seem to support the idea killing Jews . I wonder why.

bonus: I don’t play to be Jedi since I left kindergarten, though I have to admit I miss it sometimes. Gotta rewatch original episodes sometime.

floppade ,

I literally am a Jew. I support people defending themselves — even if their assailants are Jewish. You seem to think that Jews are allowed to commit genocide because they’re Jews. At this point, Israel has bombed 5 UN schools that had children sheltering inside. Being a Zionist and being Jewish are not the same thing, and not being able to understand the difference between them, is antisemitism. Killing people en masse has nothing to do with Judaism, and if you think they must be related, that speaks more about you than it does about my people.

greenmarty ,

I couldn’t care less if people are Jewish, Arab, Budhists, Chinese or green mutants. I think that the problem of the west if they still divide people into these categories.

Back to the topic. If you get attacked you get right to defend yourself. If you are oppressed and are too weak to defend your state, you ought to sought help. But Hammas main goal is not peace or end of oppression they stated their goal is to kill all Jews. In meanwhile and if they succeed, do you think Palestinian will get better or they will live under terrorist regime supressing their humans right?

As for Israel , they have to get rid off Hammas. IMHO they can’t do that with shelling. They have to go in and clear Hammad with special force face to face. All civilian casaulties should be maximally avoided.

It’s supper hard but other option is what? Live next to the ticking bomb that will periodacally massacre specifically weakest civilians because , terrorist will quickly learn no retaliation can happen?

floppade ,

Please stop spreading misinformation. You can read the Hamas charter online and it doesn’t actually say that their goal is to kill all of us. Furthermore, the ICJ ruled in — I believe — 2004 for that Israel does not have the right to defend itself against Palestinians as an occupying power.

Many people will have their arguments to justify enabling and funding genocide. Just own that you want to help kill innocent people while ignoring the truth that you’re doing that.

xdr ,

Neither does Russia use white phosphorus if I remember.

greenmarty ,

I don’t know (wo)man, somehow I can’t image bunch of Ukrainians gliding into Moscow’s music festival and youths facilities with aim of killing as many as possible as brutally as possible.
I would compare Hamas rather to Chechen back when Russia invaded them. And Russia killed their own people in at least two occasions when mass taken as hostages in that time.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

Wasn’t there an article yesterday that the US asked for restrained actions even against the hamas?

Uranium3006 ,
@Uranium3006@kbin.social avatar

Biden's not gonna do shit, we all know that

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

I like this, but I’m also pretty biased because I’m ukranian.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Essentially, Biden is very much a 'consensus' leader. In other words, he tends not to make strong deviations from policy unless there is very broad support for them. Supporting Ukraine was pre-existing US policy and popular at the time of the 2022 invasion - so Biden intensifying it wasn't out of character for him.

Opposing Israel, on the other hand, would be contrary to established US policy and something that is not widely supported in the US. So Biden is very unlikely to do anything substantial to restrain Israel, regardless of how horrific the situation gets.

Uranium3006 ,
@Uranium3006@kbin.social avatar

Biden feels like a placeholder president

greenmarty ,

Aren’t President supposed to represent policy of their country though ? What’s the point of head of the state that goes against it’s policy ?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Typically a president must (and should) make a lot of decisions in 'edge cases' and in changing policy. Biden is essentially cautious on both. Not inherently bad, but often frustrating when long-standing policy is questionable or 30% of the country is insa.ne.

greenmarty ,

I see. IMHO Biden seem to have lost respect because his health seems not top notch so it makes people doubt his mental health. If he wasn’t falling or having trouble speaking occasionally, he would be less criticized.

trash80 ,

Biden could be worse, but there’s certainly room for improvement.

Echo71Niner OP ,

never saw one, please share.

assassin_aragorn ,

reuters.com/…/white-house-israels-call-move-gaza-…

“These Palestinian people, they’re victims, too. They didn’t ask for this. They didn’t invite Hamas in and say, you know, ‘Go hit Israel.’” – Kirby

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

They asked. That's not really much. Israel still has a carte blanche from the international community to commit warcrimes.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

No they don’t.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

I mean they're committing warcrimes right this moment and instead of stopping them everyone is giving them weapons.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

How are they committing wacrimes on purpose when they tell the civilians actually to fuck off and get out of the fire? As cruel as it’s sound those civilians are collateral damage, killed because the hamas is hiding between them.

What should they do after this horrendous crimes against their people, then to move against the hamas? Did the US not act after 9/11? Did we as NATO not act when Serbians committed a genocide in Kosovo? High civilian casualties are a welcomed effect by terrorists like the Hamas, cause they are not a regular army.

I don’t find it right what’s happens there but I also have no Idea what Israel could do different in order to save humans lives and also to defend themselves.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

How are they committing wacrimes on purpose when they tell the civilians actually to fuck off and get out of the fire?

They then attack those civilians while they're fucking off, or after they get to the location they told them to fuck off to. Not kidding they've done it five times by my count the past few days. They're also attacking journalists, hospitals and the like. And don't get me started on the white phosphorus.

So yeah, they're committing warcrimes.

What should they do after this horrendous crimes against their people, then to move against the hamas?

Well, after pushing Hamas to the Gaza ousting Netenyahu and installing a PM who's actually interesting in peace would be a good start. There'll never be peace—and therefore violence is inevitable—as long as Netenyahu and his party are in charge. I'm not exaggerating.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

You also can turn this around. As long as they are terrorists like the Hamas backed by the people around them there will be no peace because they have only one goal and that is to wipe the Jews out. I’m not exaggerating, they are actually founded on this, the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are part of their charter.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

You also can turn this around.

No you can't, because:

1-Netenyahu has been standing in the way of peace since the Oslo accords.

2-Hamas and Israel signed two ceasefires before, one in 2008 and another in 2012. Both included that Israel had to lift the blockade. Well that didn't happen so both fell through. Netenyahu also vehemently opposed the short-lived unified Palestinian government because it meant Palestinians would've been able to work towards peace again.

This is what I'm talking about. Hamas had (has?) some fucked up shit in their charter, but in the end they're not so insane as to reject reality. Meanwhile Netenyahu just changes reality to keep himself in power.

Also speaking of which, Hamas changed their charter in 2017 to only demand the return to 1967 borders.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

Yes I can and you also very well know that this is not only about Hamas, but Iran, Hezbollah. But I agree on letting Netenyahu go, he is evolving into an Jewish Putin and quite an extremists.

But your answers are still every single minded.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

But your answers are still every single minded.

That's because Netenyahu is the only reason the conflict has went on for so long. This whole mess should've ended in the 90s with the Oslo accords, but Netenyahu decided to just not appear when his predecessor was assassinated. Like literally he threw away peace just like that. Then he did it again in 2008 and 2012, as I said earlier. When Hamas is willing to end the violence but Netenyahu doesn't, who's the cause of the violence?

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

The next degenerate terror regime, supported by religious fanatics around them I would say…

Historical_General ,

Those are obviously fake documents, written in badly google-translated Arabic. It has clear hallmarks of being translated from a foreign language according to people who actually know the language.

prole ,

You’re right, this situation JUST started with the attack at the festival. Literally nothing ever happened there before that day.

Give me a fucking break.

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

With which war against Israel you want to start? 1948? 1967?

prole ,

The land was Palestine before 1948, the natives who had lived there for generations were Palestinians, and their land was simply taken from them. What the fuck do you mean they “started a war”?

avater ,
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

and even before that it was owned bei Romans, Byzantine and yes the Isrealis.

Kiddo you really need to reed a book, after the UN gave the land to Isreael the countries around them started a war and then another one and then another one…which Isreal won by the way.

greenmarty ,

You can’t go with argument what was sometimes in the past to apply it today, otherwise everyone would just find something that happened earlier and conflict would never stop. It has to be solved with today’s borders regardless if it’s loss for either or both sides unless they both agree upon change.

ParsnipWitch ,

The land was not “Palestine” before. Please read up on the actual history of the area instead of some propaganda blog you found online.

prole ,

[…] killed and exiled them during the world wars and before, those who already lived in Israel.

(That entire second paragraph is one sentence, it was hard to figure out a place to start the quote)

Israel didn’t exist before the world wars. You’ve been taught a warped version of history. Please seek unbiased sources.

ParsnipWitch ,

Congratulations on finding an instance where I wrote “Israel” instead of “that area” because it was easier. Before the speration of Transjordan there was already a Jewish population in that area. The way they were treated and the influx of exiled and fleeing Jews is one of the reasons Israel and Palestine were created in the first place.

Daiken ,

Empty words.

Mrkawfee ,

America is Israel’s bitch.

Echo71Niner OP ,

Biden is a Zionist, acts, walks, and talks, like one.

darthelmet ,

Biden, and any US president, is pro-military industrial complex. Anything that lets them sell more weapons and increase US hegemony is what their ideology is.

trash80 ,

None of them are immune to criticism for it.

Gingerlegs ,

If you think this started with Biden, you’re an idiot

Echo71Niner OP ,

I never said that, if you thought that I did, you are an idiot.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

I mean no but Biden is extra-Zionist. At least Trump blamed Netenyahu for his failure to prevent the attack.

prole ,

Why would you single out Biden, when people in our Congress can’t even say, out loud, anything critical of Israel (no matter how valid) without facing a real risk of losing their entire political career?

You’d only single him out if you had an agenda. Surely you don’t have an agenda, right?

Echo71Niner OP ,

No agenda, no. Biden himself says HE IS A ZIONIST. Many Americans are proud Zionist, many of whom are gov. representatives.

Scotty_Trees ,
@Scotty_Trees@lemmy.world avatar

Show us the clip where Biden says “he’s a Zionist” or go touch grass.

kibiz0r ,

I don’t think Biden has an ideological bone in his body. Supporting Israel is just good business. Simple as.

shadysus ,

This isn’t an endorsement for Trump or Republicans who aren’t much better, and rather I wanted to add this since I don’t think the other comment was focussed on the important bit.

1986:

Joe Biden says that Israel is the best 3 billion dollar investment the United States makes, and that if there were not an Israel, the US would have to invent a one to protect US interests in the region.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLNCcLfIkM

Don’t endorse the channel, don’t know anything about the channel, I googled for the C-SPAN clip

And a more modern example with a legitimate source:

whitehouse.gov/…/remarks-by-president-biden-and-p…

And I — I’ve often said, Mr. President, if there were — if there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Palestine is hamas’ bitch.

josefo ,

America is more a sugar daddy here

corship ,

I mean that basically what the us did after 9/11 sooooo it kinda makes sense.

Someone attacks and then the retaliation follows hurting more people. The circle of death one would say.

iByteABit ,

Does it make sense or is it justified?

There’s quite a difference

corship ,

So deep 5/7

Daiken , (edited )

That’s the thing. You’d think America would have learned that you can’t bomb people into peace. But here they’re still supporting Israel which is doing the same thing.

corship ,

Just out of curiosity what’s your suggestion?

Daiken ,

It really has to be a question of what your end goal is. If the end goal is eliminating Hamas which is embedded in the civilian population, then the only thing you can do is to kill all 2 million people. I’m hoping that’s not a real option. Killing some will just give Hamas the ability to come back.

If your end goal is peace then you have to negotiate. Hamas has to release hostages and disband. In exchange the Palestinian Authority would rule over Gaza in a two state peace process. I think the only legitimate solution that both sides would accept is a two state solution at this point. Palestinians want their 1967 borders back and Israel refuses to do that…that’s the heart of this issue. Israel right now can forcefully take the entire region with the western world’s backing, so they see no reason to negotiate. The only way this could ever happen is if other countries twisted Israel’s arm and forced it to negotiate. I.e. sanctions or blockade until a peaceful solution is agreed upon. This is highly idealistic and will never happen though.

skybreaker ,
@skybreaker@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think America was looking for peace after 9/11

madcaesar ,

This is another reason having a 2 party system is horrendous, when one of the parties is batshit crazy.

I think Biden should put pressure on Israel to calm down, but I’m not going to risk wasting political capital on this issue, because if we lose the next election we’ll get the insane Republicans, in which case the whole world is fucked, not just Gaza.

fosforus ,

Hey, Trump promised to end all wars in 24 hours.

madcaesar ,

Right after he releases his amazing healthcare plan! Any minute now!

trash80 ,

The Israeli Air Force has dropped more than 6,000 bombs on a stretch of land roughly the size of Queens.

Is this a common point of reference? How big is Queens?

edit: Gaza is 365 km^2^. Queens is 280 km^2^ land and 200 km^2^ water.

clegko ,
@clegko@lemmy.world avatar

The US likes to use anything but actual units of measurement…

Copernican ,

To be fair, it is New York mag. So New York is to some degree, a frame of reference.

greenmarty ,

I guess we can be glad they didn’t say something like size of very big boulder this time.

dumdum666 ,

Yeah… citing this shitrag of NYMagazine. Al Jazeera is the better outlet compared to this.

But keep on with your circlejerk.

Echo71Niner OP ,

Do you like a napkin for your crocodile tears?

dumdum666 ,

Everyone outside your little peer bubble of terrorism-fans sees your agenda. But keep virtue signaling for your peers that you are a good little sycophant.

Echo71Niner OP ,

Everyone outside your little peer bubble of terrorism-fans sees your agenda. But keep virtue signaling for your peers that you are a good little sycophant.

all these words to tell me how scared you are Israel is finally being exposed for its crimes, this time around, it’s going to count.

prole ,

Terrorism fans

Just absolutely zero interest in good faith discussion.

PutangInaMo ,

mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-magazine/

febra ,

I mean… when has the US ever backed off from committing war crimes?

Echo71Niner OP ,

My Lai Massacre, Abu Ghraib Prison, Drone Strikes, Guantanamo Bay… list goes on.

TokenBoomer ,

Finally, a mainstream media presence is pushing back on the propaganda. Hazzah

prole ,

Yeah. “Pushing back.”

Guydht ,

What is Israel supposed to do? They got proof that Palestinians will never live with them in peace. In fact, they got that proof for centuries, but only now it’s plain as day. Is Israel supposed to lose this war? Are they seriously the only country in this world which isn’t allowed to defend itself? They owe nothing to Palestinians. They owe everything to the kidnapped who are still to this second held captive under savages who rape women and parade distorted bodies.

Echo71Niner OP ,

What is Israel supposed to do? They got proof that Palestinians will never live with them in peace.

ISRAEL’S OCCUPATION: 50 YEARS OF DISPOSSESSION.

This Amnesty International article from 2017 discusses the challenges faced by Palestinians in the West Bank due to Israeli military closures and restrictions. These include checkpoints, roadblocks, and settler-only roads that make daily tasks like commuting to work or school difficult. The construction of a 700-km fence/wall, ostensibly for security reasons, has disrupted Palestinian communities, separated families, and hindered access to essential services and resources. The article also addresses issues of water allocation, highlighting the disparity between Israeli and Palestinian water consumption. The international community is called upon to recognize and rectify these injustices and restrictions in the occupied territories.

amnesty.org/…/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispo…

josefo ,

It’s the only artificial country in the world, created by the US and his friends, on land with previous owners. They routinely keep pushing the limits of their land, with or without armed conflicts/excuses. They kick people from their houses, common people, civilians. If they don’t comply, they are executed in plain daylight, in the street. They shield themselves behind persecution propaganda, calling everyone antisemitic for pointing the obvious, when this is not about them being jews, they are systematically exterminating people.

You see, Israel existing as a country, is not only against jewish tradition (read about that), but it’s also against common sense. How a conflict like this can be solved, when Israel keeps killing civilians every year, since it’s foundation. It’s like having a 9/11 every three months, sure as hell that radicalizes every sane person. Since it’s inception, Israel only has taken land, and killed people. What would you do in the shoes of a common Palestinian? Think about that.

I’m not pro Hamas, don’t get me wrong. I’m just pro common sense, Israel existing as a country was a fucking mistake. Supporting them military and financially was another mistake. Giving them green card to fucking exterminate and steal land from other people for more that 70 fucking years it’s just evil. Decades of systemic genocide, what in the fucking hell did you expect to happen? Decades of calling for help, exposing human rights violations, fighting with whatever resources you have, lead to this savage nightmare attitude. This people are giving back some of what they have received for almost a century.

Would you just tolerate that if Native Americans did that on your country? They were here first, so they have every right to kick you out of your house, or kill you if you resist? The fuck you are, you are grabbing a fucking rifle and fighting back. C’mon, even Putin is trying to do the same thing in Ukraine and we are against him because common sense, why it’s failing that reasoning for us here?

Guydht ,

You blame every Palestinian death on Israel? Seriously? Maybe condem them for the war of 48, but that was 80 years ago, and it was started by Palestinians (and other arab nations who were just racist towards jews) but people in Palestine don’t live miserable lives purely because of israel. They have sky high poverty, dysfunctional leadership, an education system focused on murdering your neighbours. What will come out of a people wanting to just rebel against everyone? They rebelled in Jordan, they rebelled in Egypt, they rebelled in Lebanon, and they rebel in Israel. What this people need is a country to take them in, not trying to build another failed country in the middle east (whilst killing/exiling 7 million people in the process, as they oh so desire). Israel would never think of kicking out Palestinians from gaza/west bank if they developed themselves instead of focusing on death. They don’t want this headache of terrorist neighbours. Two states isn’t and wasn’t EVER an option in the eyes of Palestinians. But the jews DO need a state. They’re prosecuted all over the world, and without a country to defend them, things like the Holocaust happen. The situation got to this degree because of both parties involved. Palestinians who are head against the wall only wanting death, and Israel who focuses solely on defending themselves, with little regard on how civillians on the other side are living. Of course that with conditions as bad as those terrorists will spawn, but that’s not on Israel to blame - that’s on the palestinian leadership. Israel faulted with not trying to give Palestinians proper leadership that’ll advance them out of poverty and terror. And I failed to understand your native Americans comparison. The natives are Palestinians, so yeah Israel grabs a gun and fight back. It’s their home for 80 years, of course they’ll fight for it. It’s common sense. They’re not invaders from outside, every Israeli fighting now was born there.

SulaymanF , (edited )

Israeli president Isaac Herzog, while allowing that Gazan civilians weren’t legitimate military targets, nevertheless suggested that they bear responsibility for Hamas’s actions, saying, “They could have risen up, they could have fought against the evil regime”

Hamas has also said the same thing about Israelis, saying that they elected war criminals and hence every Israeli has some amount of guilt. Do Israelis not hear themselves? They’re only validating the terrorists with this rhetoric.

Ducks ,
@Ducks@lemmy.world avatar

They know what they’re doing. The Israeli government’s hypocracy is deliberate. Labor may be less radical than the Likud, but they’re all Zionists.

prole , (edited )

Victim blaming on a national scale.

(The Palestinian people, not Hamas. Before some IDF shills jump on my wording)

Dreamer , (edited )

It’s interesting what happens when the rhetoric used is applied to both sides.

  • Why don’t the citizens of Israel stand up against their governments war crimes?
  • If the citizens of Israel didn’t all want to be complicit in their government’s war crimes, why haven’t they risen up to outlaw mandatory military service?
  • Why don’t the citizens of Israel do anything about the settlers committing terrorist acts in plains clothes, and instead just let them blend with the rest of the population?
  • Why do the citizens of Israel not stand against their military protecting, supporting, legitimizing the terrorist acts of the settlers?

The list goes on…

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

Why don’t the citizens of Israel stand up against their governments war crimes?

they have

Why do the citizens of Israel not stand against their military protecting, supporting, legitimizing the terrorist acts of the settlers?

they have

SulaymanF ,

Israel walked into a trap. Hamas knew Israel would retaliate and do so in a major way. That was inevitable. But they also knew that overdoing it would cause Israel’s new Arab allies to face some tough questions as to why they were supporting such a regime that kills Arabs at a 10:1 ratio.

dumdum666 ,

Of course it is some kind of a trap. Hamas wants as much civilian bloodshed as possible.

Regarding the ratio of kills: if Israel really wanted and they discarded humanity the same way Hamas does, there wouldn’t be a Palestine anymore. They are fighting by different standards than the Hamas Terrorists.

iByteABit ,

This is like suggesting that emptying a round of an AK on someone that punched you is somehow “walking into a trap”

JohnDClay ,

These were right on top of each other on my feed. Project some spin on both.

U.S. officials privately warn Israel to show restraint in retaliating against Hamas - nbcnews.com/…/us-officials-privately-warn-israel-…

TimewornTraveler ,

“Don’t murder the children too hard uwu”

“US CONDEMNS ISRAEL”

InternetTubes , (edited )

Israel has never needed permission before. The US isn’t going to criticize one of, if not its only, core ally in the Middle East, at least any more than it has to, for something it isn’t going to be able to get it to stop and would only break diplomatic ties. But it is clearly pressuring Israel to tone it down. It’s odd how the criticism against the US keeps going from “its getting to involved in everything” to “its not doing enough”.

It probably would be easier for public pressure to coerce US imperialism in the zone if there wasn’t Ruso-Chino imperialism also trying to influence through Syria and Iran, with North Korean weapon imports to boot. They can both be condemned, but one losing is clearly going to favor the other, so it’s hardly going to fix the problem, it’s just moving it elsewhere.

Echo71Niner OP ,

It’s a worldwide relentless cycle, isn’t it?

some_guy ,

I hate my country and many of my countrymen.

TokenBoomer ,

It’s difficult, but don’t give in to the hate. They’re just heavily propagandized to and manipulated by the media and capitalist hegemony. They are victims too. Spread love. Free Palestine 🇵🇸

0000 ,

Based boomer 🙏

PutangInaMo ,

That’s the fucking dumbest thing I’ve read in a while. What a naive take…

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