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Kumabear ,

Oh man, look I don’t want to get into picking sides or whatever and it’s extremely cold hearted to look at is so frankly… but.

Israel is going to completely annex all of Palestine by force and fully occupy them even more than before…

They are already fully mobilising everything and looking steamroll anything that can’t get out of the way or that stands and fights.

The general vibe I’m seeing is they will do their best to straight up crush everything once and for all, while they feel they have the geo political cover to probably get away with it.

So many people are going to die.

skozzii ,

Let’s try this conversation again in 2 weeks.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

I hope every piece of shit Hamas son of a bitch feels every rocket blast, every bullet, and every knife that’s coming for them.

abbotsbury ,
@abbotsbury@lemmy.world avatar

Hopefully just the Hamas bitches

tory ,

We took hostages so now you should negotiate rather than genocide the entire Gaza strip.

Yeah, good luck with that.

cybersin , (edited )

So you’re saying Israel should glass the entire strip? Ok, got it.

Because collective punishment is totally ok and definitely NOT a war crime.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not going to be a collective punishment. But also there won’t be any negotiation this time. That train has left the station long time ago.

Aagje_D_Vogel ,

Yup, I do not agree with either side, but I’m pretty sure Israël will be taking the scorched earth approach this time around.

curiousaur ,

Honestly, I just want this conflict to end. Pragmatically, that seems like the only way to actually end it.

atetulo ,

Umm, no.

Is Israel genocides 2 million people, they will draw the ire from the entire Arab world and anyone with a shred of decency.

That would literally be on par with the holocaust.

curiousaur ,

Not if they give an evaluation warning a few weeks ahead of time

atetulo ,

Sure. They would have to do that though and also ensure those in Gaza have the means to evacuate.

curiousaur ,

They’d probably just assume everyone still there is Hamas.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

They’re threatening to starve Gaza into submission.

atetulo ,

It’s not going to be a collective punishment.

What do you think it will be?

crane228 ,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    PhlubbaDubba ,

    Exchange prisoners for Hamas leaders, make Hamas say outright that they see Palestinian lives as lesser than their own.

    If they actually have enough spine to take the deal, start a whole new Nuremberg trial and purge everyone down to the “just following orders” grunts and rebuild from there.

    hassanmckusick ,

    Revisionist history: www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/…/index.html

    mlg ,
    @mlg@lemmy.world avatar

    I think he mean in the sense of hostage negotiations.

    Practically speaking he’s right, Hamas got what they wanted by doing a day of raids for some bullet spray kills, a few IDF outposts, and taking hostages for negotiating power.

    Whether or not Israel will actually decide to negotiate for anything is another thing lol.

    Furball , (edited )

    Beheads babies, kills 250 people at a music festival, rapes and murders women before parading them down a street, then proceeds to beg for a ceasefire when the “find out” phase begins

    Edit: the babies claim is not confirmed

    nandeEbisu ,

    They’ve been living under an Israeli siege for over a decade and had a mature enough intelligence apparatus to plan a highly coordinated assault while living in a surveillance state… If you don’t think this wasn’t a calculated informed attack you’ve got your head up your ass.

    I’m not condoning indiscriminate killing and rape of civilians and taking hostages, I also don’t condone the inhumane siege of Gaza that has been happening for decades. 50% of Gaza is under 18. That’s not because they’re popping out kids, its because you just don’t survive that long in that kind of environment, those are also deaths. Not graphic ones that make headlines, but lives were still lost. Its incredibly hypocritical to assume Israel’s shit don’t stink in this situation either.

    I’m also queasy when I read the coverage of the recent attacks by Hamas, I also haven’t been living in a police state. Not saying this is the most effective way that they can achieve their objectives, but I can understand how someone growing up seeing violence, sickness and malnutrition for completely preventable reasons dehumanizes the people they see as being the cause of their situation and join or support an organization like Hamas.

    Furball ,

    I do think that Israel should stop its colonization of the West Bank, cease the blockade, and work towards a two state solution. But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.

    bingbong ,

    they deserve what will happen next.

    Nothing will change for hamas. Do the Palestinians deserve what’s happening now?

    Furball ,

    Israel is almost certainly going to overthrow Hamas which seems like something changing

    dmonzel ,
    @dmonzel@lemmy.world avatar

    Israel is also requesting civilians go to camps and then bombing them.

    BradleyUffner ,

    But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.

    The Israeli government no longer seems to care about the difference between the two.

    MeanEYE ,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    There was a time when there was no wall, no blockade, and work towards two state solution. Do remember that Israelis lived inside of Gaza until 2005. Why do you think they raised the wall in west bank and left Gaza in 2005? They left them to self-govern and they elected Hamas and now you think removing walls is going to help solve the issue? What a naive way of thinking.

    This is not “you are taking our land” issue, this is “every jew must die” issue to them.

    Davin ,

    I have sympathy for the Palestinian and Israeli civilians that are being murdered by both sides. Since 2008, Israel has killed significantly more Palestinians than vice versa www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, 6,000 Palestinian deaths to 300 Israeli deaths.

    It’s the “deserve” part of your comment that I’m having trouble with reconciling when the amount of deaths and violent oppression has been so unbalanced against Palestinians. Yeah, Hamas needs to face consequences, but that’s not really what’s happening or what’s going to be happening. It’s going to be civilians that will suffer the most and Hamas will be fine when it’s all done.

    It’s not hard to see, as horrible as Hamas is, how they can get recruits and support for their regime and how this escalated to this point. I don’t support what happened in any way, but I can see how things lead up to this.

    And I’ve seen people say that Hamas fucked it up for Palestinians because now they lost the sympathy. Which is hard to not see as flawed when the sympathy hasn’t helped Palestinians for over half a century of violent oppression.

    Dreamer , (edited )

    Also, when Palestinians resist against Israel, I’m not sure many people are informed about the differences between what Israel’s actions are and the narrative it gives out. An example would be found in this Haaretz article covering how Israel systematically hides evidence of Arab expulsion.

    dmonzel ,
    @dmonzel@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ll just leave this here.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2b002e79-d147-4073-af38-8f05ad0d3b9c.jpeg

    Furball ,

    I’ve said this before in this same thread but I will say it again: I think Israel needs to end the blockade of Gaza, withdraw from the West Bank, end the settlement policy, and negotiate with the Palestinian authority. But I have no sympathy for Hamas after what they have done and I hope they are completely destroyed as an organization.

    dmonzel ,
    @dmonzel@lemmy.world avatar

    Israel has refused to negotiate. Palestinian leadership has tried.

    cybersin , (edited )

    Your claims about babies and women have not yet been confirmed as factual.

    Washington post

    Business insider

    Krauerking ,

    Man people downvoting you cause they literally just want their echo chamber and not facts.

    Yeah, I would bet rumors have spread through soldiers trying to one up each other on how terrible Hamas is, but where there is smoke their might be fire.

    pastermil ,

    Yeah, I’m pretty sure they’re way past the line.

    hoshikarakitaridia ,

    Yeah sorry Hamas, no takesy backsies when you just murdered a bunch of civilians at a peace festival.

    It’s like your brother just stole your favourite toy and then he’s like “ok now we can have a truce”.

    Sivalente ,

    Also murdered 40 babies in kfar aza, including beheadings.

    spiderplant ,

    Atrocity propaganda, the journalist tweeted that they overheard that from a soldiers conversation and reported it as fact.

    No evidence yet it is true.

    Krauerking ,

    Huh, yeah looking into it, it seems like a rumor for now.

    Might be something with a grain of truth but right now there is bodies, and they are starting to pile up fast enough we can’t count how many there were at the beginning. It’s amazing how quickly this has escalated into what people wanted anyway.

    cybersin , (edited )

    This claim has not yet been confirmed.

    Washington post

    Business insider

    ThatWeirdGuy1001 , (edited )
    @ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

    Except the toy was yours to begin with and your brother has been rubbing the fact he was able to steal it with outside support in your face while actively stealing more of your toys and you finally stood up and took it back from him.

    Don’t commit genocide if you don’t want your own people genocided

    skozzii ,

    It is so much more complicated than that. Both sides have done horrible things, but this last provocation was completely offside.

    dmonzel ,
    @dmonzel@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ab02e6b9-00c4-4884-b875-0e886aa4430e.jpeg

    skozzii ,

    I wonder what other major event happened in the early 40’s? That also was Palestine the territory of Egypt and Jordan, not an independent Palestian state.

    Misleading on purpose perhaps?

    Again, it is so much more complicated than it appears.

    dmonzel , (edited )
    @dmonzel@lemmy.world avatar

    Ah, so it “being complicated” means it’s ok for Israel to continue to steal land from the Palestinians. Gotcha.

    Edit: and bomb refugee camps.

    spiderplant ,

    No evidence of 250 dead. Only videos of people running away and Israeli eye witnesses saying resistance fighters were kind to them.

    Nice atrocity propaganda though.

    Reddit_Is_Trash ,

    They’re terrorists, the only negotiations with them is where in their head they want to be shot

    pendulum_ ,
    @pendulum_@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    hassanmckusick ,

    https://lemmy.discothe.quest/pictrs/image/5dc41e20-7863-475d-9bb3-0c201215b33e.webp

    Reddit_Is_Trash ,

    Fuck off, terrorist sympathizer. Go back to hexbear

    hassanmckusick ,

    Fuck off apartheid apologist

    Devious_Thoughts ,

    LMAO come on, guess they didn’t expect the IDF to fight back 🤷🏽

    Wahots ,
    @Wahots@pawb.social avatar

    Taking a shit in the public water supply, getting roughed up as people demand to know why you just shat in the only watersource, and then you tell them to chill and that you “got your point across” lmao.

    avater , (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    Just as a little reality check for all Hamas “fans” (Hamas not Palestine!!) out here which are actually comparing them to Israel or openly defending them. The Hamas is founded on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are a fairytale full of antisemitism and proven, false statements about Jews and how they are responsible for every bad thing that happens during the centuries and their diabolical plot for world domination (of course one of the favorite lecture of the Nazis)

    …wikipedia.org/…/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Z…

    Those idiots are really believing this fairytale and they use it to justify the murder of innocent people and Jews in general. So the next time you step in in defense of the Hamas or when you compare them to Israel, keep in mind that they are doing this because they believe in some antisemitic fairytale written by a crazy Russian back in the old days…they are basically Scientology only more degenerated and more violent.

    olafurp ,

    Arabs are semitic people, just an FYI.

    avater , (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    oh fuck right off with this poor attempt to derail the conversation! you know exactly what i’m talking about when I use the term antisemitism…

    Madison420 ,

    Sure, but they aren’t wrong. It’s anti judaic not anti semitic.

    avater , (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    No it’s not, you’re dead wrong:

    Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who interpret it as referring to racist hatred directed at all “Semitic people” (i.e., those who speak Semitic languages, such as Arabs, Assyrians, and Arameans). This usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus (lit. ‘antisemitism’) was first used in print in Germany in 1879 as a “scientific-sounding term” for Judenhass (lit. ‘Jew-hatred’), and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitismwww.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism…europa.eu/…/definition-antisemitism_en

    It really always amazes me how people like you are able top post really dumb shit like this while we are living in the age of technology where it is so easy to do a fact check in seconds from various trustful sources…I really can’t explain it, it’s either ignorance or you are doing it on purpose…

    Madison420 ,

    Nope, the etymology of “anti-Semitism” originates with one man named willhelm who used it specifically as a racial term though yes clearly a veiled commentary on Judaism. It didn’t however change the meaning of the word as used by its Creator.

    Google it’s etymology and get back to me about how “people like me” are.

    avater , (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    Can you please just fuck off and leave me alone with your antisemitic bullshit and false statements? Nevermind there is a blocking function for people like you…

    Madison420 ,

    Anti judaic is what it would be, I’m not however bigoted in that manner. I hate both of these fucks and religion in general for excusing such behavior.

    But no screech about how objective fact isn’t so because your fee fees got hurt by things I never said.

    Zabjam ,

    And the swastika was originally a religious symbol in Eurasia.

    While true, it is a pointless fact that contributes nothing to the discussion as they are commonly used in a different way and understood by everybody. This is nothing more than derailing a discussion.

    Madison420 ,

    Across the planet actually, notably American native populations used it.

    That’s my point. Using “anti Semitic” as anti judaic is soft propaganda.

    rbesfe ,

    I want you to talk to 50 different people and ask them what “antisemitism” means. See how many even mention Arabs.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    Arabic is a semitic language. This is like saying Bengalis and Irish folks are both of the same clade because Gailge and Bangla are both IE languages.

    James_Jim_Jimmy ,

    You should also be asking the question–are Lemmy developers anti-semtic?

    This whole situation has seriously caused me to reconsider a great many things about Lemmy. I can’t support lemmy, at all, if they are pro-murdering terrorist (Hamas, ISIS, et al). The lemmy.ml instance (run by the developers) has serious foundational issues and to me, I am wondering who it is that is writing this software, and who is paying them.

    avater ,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    can you elaborate on this? I wonder if the situation is any other on a platform like reddit so I suppose it’s the people not the platform

    DWin ,

    From what I saw, there was one developer spouting some abhorant things, talking about how all Israeli citizens were targets at this point. I haven’t seen anything else about other developers sharing these views though so I’m considering it an isolated nutter until we see more

    James_Jim_Jimmy ,

    Lemmy.ml is run by the developers on lemmy, and if you look at the modlog, it looks like the lemmy developers deleted comments then banned a shit ton of people who were not virulently anti-Israel. It is pretty shocking to me, as the anti-Israel stuff remained. Who are the developers, and who is paying them?

    TexMexBazooka ,

    Move to another instance. Done.

    jscummy ,

    Lemmy has a huge tankie problem and it becomes really apparent when a situation like this comes up

    Why tankies/leftists think Palestine is in any way aligned with them is beyond me

    avater ,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    yeah I see this now, kind of frightening

    Terevos ,
    @Terevos@lemm.ee avatar

    Just block lemmy.ml - who cares what the devs think. It’s an open source project.

    James_Jim_Jimmy ,

    It’s a problem for states that are supporting developers who are supporting terrorists.

    InternetTubes ,

    There’s probably a great deal of involvement from bad actors who want to farm and exploit big data where they couldn’t before. I wouldn’t blame you, lemmy should be branched, but isn’t that what kbin.social is?

    stown ,
    @stown@lemmy.world avatar

    Kbin isn’t really a fork, but it does have a similar feature set.

    gmtom ,

    Okay, then go back to reddit then

    James_Jim_Jimmy ,

    pretty much

    hassanmckusick ,

    If you were genuinely curious one of the devs has a massive manifesto. No need to speculate I’m pretty sure it covers every topic known to man.

    I don’t recall seeing anything particularly antisemitic but I was honestly so dumbfounded I wouldn’t know where to start looking.

    hassanmckusick ,

    So I went back because I was curious. Again it is a fucking wild ride, I suggest yall search it out. I’m not gonna post it because I don’t wanna bring any unnecessary bandwagoning. But I searched for anti-semitism real quick and found this:

    https://lemmy.discothe.quest/pictrs/image/da82b4c9-aec3-4581-ba6b-864b1d57f942.png

    It proves absolutely nothing but it would be pretty weird to see the devs of lemmy cite anti-semitism as a reason Orwell was bad if they were also anti-semitic.

    James_Jim_Jimmy ,

    crazy, lemmy is dead to me after these posts. people need to know, it is unsupportable imo.

    TexMexBazooka ,

    Bro stop crying. The devs don’t profit from this like a private company would. Don’t use their instance, spin up your own, the project is open source and bigger than them. Your political grandstanding means nothing.

    iByteABit ,

    Please state your sources…

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Lol no way; Hamas needs to be wiped out completely. They can never, ever, be trusted and will just do this shit again in the future.

    ModernRisk ,
    @ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    But Israel is allowed to murder men, women and children and steal homes, land for decades right?

    Hypocrisy at its finest.

    Yeah, what Hamas did is entirely wrong but don’t forget that Israel been oppressing Palestinians for decades.

    HurlingDurling ,

    Maybe I’m ignorant, but isn’t hammas a terrorist group? If so fuck them, but keep Palestine alone.

    Zorque ,

    Hamas is a response to a repressive Israeli regime. Even if you "wipe out" Hamas, another group will just fill its place.

    It's not a matter of just getting rid of the "bad guys" and hoping the forces of good win the day... It requires a monumental shift not only in the treatment of the Palestinians, but in the entire political structure of the area. Which is neither happening easily nor quickly. And sadly, there's not a whole lot we can do to help the situation.

    Vub ,

    I don’t know if you know this but Hamas is controlling the administration of the Gaza Strip. They are a terrorist organisation but also the de facto local government.

    HurlingDurling ,

    Ok, but destroying Gaza and killing all the inhabitants is still genocide and a war crime.

    Vub ,

    Hamas really killed themselves with their murders, Israels response will be brutal and long. But they will not kill “everyone” as you say, they are bombing Hamas targets and many of them are located in civilian spots. It will not stop Israel after these terror attacks and everyone knew this beforehand. Israels actions before have been exactly the same.

    Hopefully Hamas will be completely eradicated and the Palestinians will reject these fascist leaders from now on, for betraying their trust and leading their people to even more suffering.

    It is all just tragic and awful.

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Majority of Palenstinians support Hamas.

    HurlingDurling ,

    I have lived through terrorism. They will kill anyone who is brave enough to spose them, and the rest are too afraid of speaking out from retaliation, Hamas is no different.

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Hypocrisy at its finest.

    Nope. I don’t support Israel doing that either. However, Hamas will never tolerate peace. They will never allow a 2-state compromise; they want Israel completely gone. And Israel is allowed to defend it’s borders. There is no happy ending here for anyone.

    Whattrees ,
    @Whattrees@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    The right-wing party in Israel (the party currently in control even after losing multiple elections) will also never support peaceful co-existence. They will never allow a real two state solution where the other state has control over its borders, air, water, import rights, etc. They want Palestine completely gone, and in fact Bibi was just at the UN arguing that Israel already has complete control and ownership over the Palestinian territories. Palestine is allowed to defend against the longest running occupation in history. There is no happy ending here as long as the Israeli boot is on the Palestinian neck.

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Unfortunately for Palestine, Israel will win.

    LadyAutumn ,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    The Gaza strip is within Israel’s borders. They hold direct power over whether the people who live there have electricity water and food.

    Israel is not defending itself. They are using hamas attacks as a pretext to commit mass violence on Palestinians.

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Of course Israel is defending itself against a homicidal organization. The fact it’s in Israel’s borders is irrelevant.

    LadyAutumn ,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Its very relevant. Is depriving all 2 and a half million palestinians of food water and electricity self defense? Is bombing palestinian homes an act of self defense? Is depriving palestinians of human rights an act of self defense?

    Self defense is not murdering innocent people. It never is no matter what. They’re using the attack from hamas as a pretext to commit mass acts of violence against innocent Palestinians.

    Rutzs ,

    Wipe them away. Fucking monsters.

    Have you seen the videos of abducted children in cages? Hamas must be removed.

    hassanmckusick ,

    Have you seen the video of the American dude from NY going to Palestine and stealing a Palestinian’s house?

    Plopp ,

    Have you seen my glasses?

    hassanmckusick ,

    twitter.com/OCanonist/status/1711038302646940081

    LadyAutumn ,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I mean yeah it’d be great if you could just do that. But how would you? And more importantly, how is the state of Israel proposing to get rid of Hamas? What actions are they taking right now with that aim? They’re bombing palestinians. Just random indiscriminate bombing. How exactly would that eliminate Hamas? Their plan is just to kill as many palestinians as they can, Netanyahu has said himself he plans to “turn Gaza into a desert island” and his defense minister has said “our enemies are human animals”. It’s plain as day what they plan to do.

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Yes I’m aware of what Israel is doing. No, I don’t know of any better ways to get rid of Hamas.

    LadyAutumn ,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    At least you’re honest. I don’t see mass murder of innocent Palestinian men women and children as acceptable as a kind of attack on Hamas. Palestinians have as much right to life as Israelis do, and we should be as outraged at their senseless deaths as we have been about the festival goers.

    gmtom ,

    Same, but the IDF

    osarusan ,

    Real Putin energy here.

    Cleverdawny ,

    Hamas fucked around, is finding out, and want to talk “truce?” What does a truce with a bunch of genocidal terrorists look like?

    LadyAutumn ,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Not carpet bombing the Gaza strip, where 2 and a half million palestinians live I’d imagine.

    Cleverdawny ,

    If Israel was carpet bombing the Gaza Strip, we wouldn’t see hundreds dead. We would see hundreds of thousands dead.

    LadyAutumn ,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Fair enough. They seem poised to try their best, I truly hope the situation de escalates and actual solutions are sought after.

    Cleverdawny ,

    That all depends on whether Hamas starts executing hostages and uploading the videos to the internet, like they’re threatening

    QHC ,

    Good question, should ask Israel the same thing.

    PsychedSy ,

    Hamas fucked around and innocent arab palestinians are finding out.

    Cleverdawny ,

    Well, Hamas is who those innocent Palestinians chose to be their government

    PsychedSy ,

    Some did. They don’t exactly hold elections, though.

    Cleverdawny ,

    Last time they did, Hamas won

    PsychedSy ,

    My worry isn’t really the voters that were enfranchised then, ya know? It’s gonna be mothers with bloody infants that fuck me up. Or young men pressed into ‘service’. Or really any young casualties.

    Cleverdawny ,

    Then they should probably do something about Hamas.

    PsychedSy ,

    I’ll donate an infant sized rifle.

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