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saltesc ,

I feel so sorry for this person. Dragged into the spotlight of the world where everyone’s got a say about their gender, completely forgetting that they’re human first.

The “for” and “against” using her are sociopathic. Nothing feels more alienating that strangers sending positive and negative things to you, like they know you.

TSG_Asmodeus ,
@TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

Allez Imane!

ArbitraryValue ,

wrongly questioned

Were the allegations actually disproven? What I’ve read is that the IOC chose not to investigate.

catloaf ,

The article says the IOC honored what was on her passport. I don’t think there was any valid concern raised, it was just the Russian body doing Russian things.

ArbitraryValue ,

Yes, they chose not to investigate. I suppose one might call the allegations unfounded, but without evidence to the contrary they can’t reasonably be called false.

HauntedBucket ,

Research the SRY gene. It’s why she “failed” a test that wasn’t looking for it. She was born female. She is female. Her passport says she’s female. The IOC says she’s female. The ONLY people making the claim are Russians and their bad science and conservatives and their bad faith.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

To be fair, the Russians making the accusations are also malicious.

mosiacmango ,

The whole world:

“There is no evidence that shes is anything but a natural born woman. It’s clear this is fabricated outrage.”

You:

“They didn’t provide evidence of no evidence, so I am going to keep believing this fabricated outrage because I like being angry and refuse to stop.”

Corvid ,

There’s a teacup orbiting the sun between Mars and Jupiter. There’s no evidence to the contrary, so it can’t reasonably be called false.

ArbitraryValue ,

There’s plenty of evidence to the contrary. Teacups are man-made objects, rocket launches are closely monitored, and no rocket is known to have launched a teapot into that orbit. It isn’t absolutely impossible that something very much like a teapot formed there spontaneously, that a teapot was secretly launched there for no apparent reason, or that extraterrestrials placed a teapot there, but again there is evidence that these events are very unlikely to have happened. Russell’s goal was to illustrate that the burden of proof should be on the one making unfalsifiable claims, but he didn’t pick a good example - the lack of a plausible mechanism for the teapot to arrive in that orbit was even stronger evidence before spaceflight.

HauntedBucket ,

There’s a manhole cover out there that isn’t on a single NASA manifest either.

ArbitraryValue ,

That’s an urban legend.

DroopyAtmosphere ,

Does snopes have anything about a teacup?

Corvid ,

China launched the teapot on a rideshare rocket that delivered 60 other payloads. It’s top secret, and the US Gov doesn’t want to publicize that the Chinese have developed a space tug capable of inserting a 200g teacup into a mars transfer orbit.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

There’s plenty of evidence to the contrary. Teacups are man-made objects, rocket launches are closely monitored, and no rocket is known to have launched a teapot into that orbit.

None of that is evidence that the teapot doesn’t exist.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously, dude?

ArbitraryValue ,

Reread my post. I understood the reference.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Do you? Because you are making arguments he refuted decades ago.

ArbitraryValue ,

From your Wikipedia article itself:

Another philosopher, Alvin Plantinga, states that a falsehood lies at the heart of Russell’s argument. Russell’s argument assumes that there is no evidence against the teapot, but Plantinga disagrees:

Clearly we have a great deal of evidence against teapotism. For example, as far as we know, the only way a teapot could have gotten into orbit around the sun would be if some country with sufficiently developed space-shot capabilities had shot this pot into orbit. No country with such capabilities is sufficiently frivolous to waste its resources by trying to send a teapot into orbit. Furthermore, if some country had done so, it would have been all over the news; we would certainly have heard about it. But we haven’t. And so on. There is plenty of evidence against teapotism.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Cool. You read the Wikipedia article. Let me know when you actually read Russell.

ArbitraryValue ,

I will note that you are the one making claims without evidence about what Russell wrote and by your own logic, the burden of proof is on you.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

What claims do you imagine I’m making?

ArbitraryValue ,

You’re claiming that Russell addressed the claim that there is in fact strong evidence against the teapot.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

And you expect me to what, spend money on an ebook and start pasting from it to prove that an author you clearly haven’t read addressed your point?

catloaf ,

That’s not comparable here. Chromosomes and hormone levels are easily testable. (I don’t know what the IOC’s actual policy is, but I’m sure it’s something measurable.)

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

They can reasonably be called false just as they are about any other Olympian. They verified she was born a woman, same as they do with any other competitor.

Just because someone makes an accusation with zero evidence doesn’t mean there needs to be any sort of investigation.

nova_ad_vitum ,

I suppose one might call the allegations unfounded, but without evidence to the contrary they can’t reasonably be called false.

Neither can the allegation that I’m making right now, that you are a pedophile.

Godort ,

Yes. She’s female and was born female.

It’s illegal to be transgender in Algeria, and the only complaint came from a Russian boxing body with a history of making suspect claims in the past.

ArbitraryValue ,

The claim is not that she was initially considered to be a man by the Algerian government and then changed her public identity to that of a woman, but rather that she has some sort of intersex condition that elevates her testosterone levels into the masculine range.

realitista ,

There seems to be little credible hard evidence on either side, so anyone claiming to know the real truth here is just talking out of their ass.

ArbitraryValue ,

That’s the point I was originally trying to make. This article is written as if the question has been conclusively answered, but it hasn’t been.

mierdabird ,

You’re making it sound like whether she’s trans is a valid question, which it isn’t

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

She is a woman who was born a woman and happens to have high testosterone for a woman, just like some people are taller than others. She just happens to be at one end of the testosterone spectrum.

Just because you want baseless rumors to be true doesn’t make them true.

ArbitraryValue ,

Hold on, her testosterone levels are known? I haven’t come across them. What are they?

snooggums , (edited )
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

“Higher than average.” Hence the upper body muscles being larger that average for a female boxer.

It isn’t rocket surgery.

ArbitraryValue ,

So they’re not known.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

I haven’t seen any evidence that you aren’t a Russian bot.

ArbitraryValue ,

Нет, Я сам Путин.

legion02 ,

Why would they ever make that known to the public. Would be a huge invasion of the competitors privacy. Kinda weird.

diablexical ,

Its part of wada rules to which the ioc is compliant? Drug test results for these organization are often published, at least they are for my powerlifting org

0laura ,
@0laura@lemmy.world avatar

wrong. the IBA said they never did any testosterone tests. feel free to disprove me, but to my knowledge there is 0 evidence even hinting at her having high T

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Where did I say anyone tested her?

HauntedBucket ,

All Olympians are genetic outliers. Do you really want to be the DNA police? Then every Michael Phelps medal should be returned because that man is naturally different from the rest of us. But he’s a man so we’re not talking about him.

biography.com/…/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimmi…

bassomitron ,

Was it him or Lance Armstrong that ended up getting caught doping? Pretty sure it was the latter, but also recall Phelps getting accused of something. If could’ve even been something irrelevant like marijuana.

Agree with your point, though.

legion02 ,

It was pot for Phelps

dubyakay ,

Lance Was the one that got accu of doping. He never got caught. Just didn’t contest charges by the anti doping agency after he retired anyway.

But also, everyone seems to do it in cycling.

njm1314 ,

I’m pretty sure he was caught. Like proven. It’s just they caught like virtually every other cyclist in that same race.

ech ,

Seriously. Phelps is pretty much genetically ideal for a swimmer, but nobody claimed it was “UnfAiR!!” when he swept the board multiple olympics in a row, garnering more gold medals than anyone in history, before or since.

One female boxer looks a bit “too” muscular and the bigots are up in arms. Fucking assholes.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

And Khelif lost plenty of bouts in her career, but somehow, those aren’t relevant because, “I know a man when I see one.”

njm1314 ,

I actually encountered someone a couple of days ago herr on Lemmy that said it was unfair of Phelps to compete because he was too genetically superior. It was bizarre. Course it was on a thread about Phelps criticizing Chinese athletes who were doping so I imagine it was just a tankie trying his best.

sudneo ,

This is honestly an argument that I find very weak. I mean absolutely there are plenty of genetic advantages in general in sport. The problem is that not all sports have categories to isolate competitions for certain parameters. Swimming does not, so you could argue that is unfair by default, but that’s what it is right now. Fighting sports generally do have categories, both gender and weight.

If we leave alone gender, if someone had some condition (let’s imagine something that doesn’t exist) that would result in having muscle mass common for a 80Kg, but in a 70Kg body, that person would probably have an unfair advantage in the 70Kg category because weight is a proxy for muscle mass as well.

The only reasonable argument here is that the boxer, even if she has some genetic condition, still tested within the limits for female boxers. That is pretty much it, which means that whatever condition she has (if any), it’s not considered an advantage in the female category according to current standards.

SeaJ ,

Her testosterone treated within the allowed range.

Gerudo ,

The genetic issue she has is in 1in 600 people. Not exactly rare

ryper ,

the only complaint came from a Russian boxing body with a history of making suspect claims in the past

And that was only after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian. Sounds an awful lot like sore losers making up excuses.

PhlubbaDubba ,

1, trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.

2, of all the fucking countries to suspect of “cheating” by fielding a trans woman, ALGERIA‽

Eldritch ,

Good points. And everyone should always upvote proper use of an interrobang.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Interrobang sounds like a genre of porn.

JoMiran ,
@JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

“Where did you hide the secret documents?”

" I’ll tell you, but first…"

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funky seventies bass guitar and synths sounds

ArbitraryValue ,

The claim is not that she is taking hormone blockers, and not that whatever condition she may have is known to the Algerian government or even to herself.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Bro please just fucking stop being such an insistent dumbass.

circuscritic ,

What I’m going to say has nothing to do with the Algerian boxer, she was born a woman and if we started banning athletes from the Olympics whose rare genetics gave them an advantage, there’d be no reason to watch.

trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.

That is objectively false for combat sports. Blockers do not reverse the years of effects that testosterone has on their bodies development, such as skeletal structure and bone density.

I don’t understand this insistence on denying reality for the very niche topic of trans women competing in combat sports, it is dangerous.

If you don’t believe me, go listen to the interviews of female MMA fighters who Fallon Fox destroyed, and I’m talking like fractured skulls.

PhlubbaDubba ,

You just pulled the case of the single most violent form of combat sports out of your ass to justify being a discriminatory fuckwad.

How hard is it to just stop being a fuckwad? Why do people keep insisting on making “I want to keep being a fuckwad!” their hill to die on?

Do you get some kind of high from this dumb shit? Does it make you feel big to know that you’re just pissing all over people trying to live their lives for no reason except that ya just don’t like them for some fucking reason with no basis in any form of reality except the one you made up for the purpose of getting to keep hating them?

circuscritic , (edited )

No, I cited a very specific and highly relevant scientific rationale, and then followed up with an example of what happens when you choose to ignore that reality for the sake of, whatever it is you believe you’re doing.

Combat sports are combat sports…MMA, boxing, etc., they’re COMBAT sports.

But I can tell from your ignoring the scientific reality of the situation, and choosing instead to call me a discriminatory fuckwad, that you’re someone who should be taken seriously. Clearly I’m not up to that task…

ColeSloth ,

Even in a section of internet that is massively pro lgbtq, you’re being down voted for saying such utterly ignorant things.

Muscle mass completely aside, men are designed to punch better than women. The hips, arm length, and size of their hands are all better for combat sports and hormone treatment doesn’t take any of that away.

You don’t sound pro Trans so much as you sound anti cis. Like you just hate most of the population.

PhlubbaDubba ,

“wah wah wah not being allowed to make up science to justify bullshit discrimination is anti-cis discrimination!”

You literally just tried to “reverse racism” this argument because it offended you that much that literally no actual science backs up the notion that trans women are anything but women.

That’s where this whole argument comes from, the absolutely desperate twisted angst of the transphobe to find any way at all to rear the false notion that trans women are anything but women.

Fuck the chromosomes fuck the obsession with not knowing how hormones work, fuck all the armchair biologists with Facebook University medical degrees specializing in sexual dimorphism, and fuck you trying to bring bone shape into this argument as if the phrenologists aren’t there in the background being a glaring example about why listening to that logic gets us nowhere but genocide town in a blink.

They’re women, they’re just as much women as cis women, letting them into women’s spaces isn’t abusing cis women, it is letting women into women’s spaces.

That’s what the actual science says, eat shit and die mad about it if you refuse to accept just not being a transphobic rancid skunk anus about letting people just be who they say their identity is.

ColeSloth ,

Lol. Damn, you’re one delusional individual. Such an angry little nut.

ColeSloth ,

I know nothing of this boxer, but a Trans boxer would have several advantages outside of hormone levels. Physically, males are much better suited for boxing than females. They have larger hearts, lungs, longer arms, bigger hands, and hips more in line to directly send power from punching and keep in balance. Muscle and mass aside, men are better suited at punching, and those advantages don’t go away with hormone blockers.

As to hormone therapy, do you think a professional m2f Trans athlete is going to be taking enough blockers to be towards the lower end of female testosterone, or taking just enough to be in the high end? This is a completely separate argument from the first point I’ve made, but im just curious as to why you would assume it nullifies all the testosterone. You have to have some in order to live. Your bones will go to shit, your heart won’t work right, and you won’t be able to make enough blood cells. Along with muscle loss, fatigue, and other issues. Hormone therapy will not take you down to 0 testosterone.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Women do not have to prove that they’re women. The IBA didn’t even say what test they gave her who administered it and who analyzed it. All they said was it wasn’t for testosterone.

Imgonnatrythis ,

Is that true? I’ve never thought about how it works for Olympics. But it’s completely self reported? If that’s true it does seem open to abuse.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

She was born a girl. Do you really think Algeria, of all places, would be okay with a “male” athlete competing as a woman?

Imgonnatrythis ,

I don’t know anything about that, but that’s not what I was asking

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That is all the IOC requires. Why should they require anything else?

Eatspancakes84 ,

It’s quite common to test for testosterone. For one because synthetic testosterone is on the doping list. That’s also why the IBA test is so suspicious. If her testosterone was at male levels, that should have been discovered way earlier with a doping test.

mightyfoolish ,

Again, the fake Russian test failed her for an unknown test but said the test WASN’T about testosterone. The gender thing has nothing to do with Russia.

  1. Russian official fails her for unknown reasons not repeated to testosterone.
  2. Transphobes call her a male for unknown reasons.
  3. Imane is tested for doping as frequently as other competitors.
LarmyOfLone ,

This isn’t a complicated case. She was born a female with female genitalia and has a passport issued as female and self reports as female. She is not transgender. What else is needed but to test for doping? Half of all women have higher than average testosterone levels, that is how averages work. Many top athletes are anomalies of some sort.

The IOC did create a framework for transgender athletes but that doesn’t apply to her. The fascists are just trying to smear her and paint her as a cheater and “other” like fascists do.

sneezycat , (edited )
@sneezycat@sopuli.xyz avatar

Half of all women have higher than average testosterone levels, that is how averages work.

I agree with your point and with what you said, but I want to clarify something:

That’s not how averages work. That’s how median works. For example:

-Person A: 4 units testosterone

-Person B: 4 units testosterone

-Person C: 7 units testosterone

Mean: (4+4+7)/3= 5 units

Median: 4 units

So 2 people would be under the average because one person shoots the average up.

SeaJ ,

There is not really a need to. The allegation comes from the IBA which is unrecognized by the Olympics and is a Russian propaganda organization. A Russian boxer lost to her and an official who is now fired for corruption disqualified her. Her birth certificate and passport say female and her testosterone is within the range for women. You can’t just give extra screening to women you don’t find attractive.

yournamehere ,

and the wba…but what do you care.

yournamehere ,

ssshh, woke facism is a young flower. dont tell the kids to reflect on things. womens boxing has become obsolete by this decision and the opposite of what these idiots that downvoted you happend. ofcourse she won. that is why so many women do want to box her. but those women dont matter as long as the dumb kids can get a kick out of pretending to fight the good fight.

Gerudo ,

Fuck every person who engaged in this shit. Lie after lie

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot ,

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