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Alteon , (edited )

Hey! Where’s the Russian Agents, I mean MAGA Patriots, I mean Genocide Joe crowd at rn? You know the ones that constantly complain that Biden should have personally airdropped over Gaza and personally saved the children? You know, the ones that demand Biden to destroy any and all ties to an ally that may or may not have long lasting repercussions with our existing allies? You know, the ones that actually think geopolitics are easy?

Voyajer ,
@Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

It’s 22:00 in moscow, they’re probably getting ready to sleep.

alcoholicorn ,

I don’t know who you’re talking about that believes anything you’ve claimed, but the people who don’t want Biden to send Israel the weapons they’re using to carry out a genocide are still angry that Biden is sending Israel weapons, which they’re using to carry out a genocide.

If your understanding of geopolitics somehow has you justifying helping Israel blowing up kids in Palestine or Saudi Arabia blowing up school buses in Yemen or american occupiers cause famine in Syria, you’ve completely lost the plot.

Not blowing up children is more important than American hegemony in the middle east.

Cryophilia ,

I don’t know who you’re talking about

The fuck you don’t lmao

What the fuck is this gaslighting bullshit. “Tankies? Never heard of em”

alcoholicorn ,

Not a single person expects Biden to personally drop into Gaza. Good job with that strawman though.

Cryophilia ,

That’s not what I said, gaslighter

alcoholicorn ,

You know the ones that constantly complain that Biden should have personally airdropped over Gaza and personally saved the children?

Your words are right there

Cryophilia ,

Literally not my words, dumbass

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

I was getting lunch :c

Maeve ,

Hope it was agreeable and delicious!

Deinonychusanti ,

“Everything i don’t like is Russian or Chinese.”

Alteon ,

I mean, we literally know that Russia and China is antivax conspiracies, and anti-demoracy, pro-fascism rhetoric that people absolutely just eating up. Anything they can do to help push the nation to be more right-leaning is better for them.

Eezyville ,
@Eezyville@sh.itjust.works avatar

Make your own weapons then!

jwt ,

I think if he tried they’d look like something out of a cartoon. https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/2a877672-75f0-4fbe-8433-4c72f8a8f785.jpeg

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

that’s what he gets buying from acme

Cethin ,

Israel does make some of their own weapons. (Have you ever heard of the Uzi or Desert Eagle?) Just not enough for their current goals. I’ve heard that proposed as a reason the US provides them so many weapons, to suppress the growth of their local weapons industry.

alcoholicorn ,

Israel is the only country whose aid doesn’t have to be spent on US goods. The US created Israel’s arms industry.

shalafi ,

So why can’t Israel support itself after decades of the US pumping weapons and money?

I’m 100% done with Israel, and that’s coming from a middle-aged guy who was always a supporter. At this point, I honestly don’t care if the Arab world stomps them flat. Who could I possibly give a shit any longer?!

So thanks for bringing the plight of the Palestinians into my worldview and trashing the country’s reputation. I get it now. Clearly.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Israel can support itself. This is a huge con.

The defense industry of Israel is a strategically important sector and a large employer, as well as a major supplier of the Israel Defense Forces. The country is one of the world’s major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. Three Israeli companies were listed on the 2022 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute index of the world’s top 100 arms-producing and military service companies: Elbit Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries and RAFAEL.[1] It is also a major player in the global arms market with a 2.3% share of the global exports of major arms as of 2023.[2] Total arms transfer agreements topped $12.9 billion between 2004 and 2011.[3] There are over 150 active defense companies based in the country with combined revenues of more than $3.5 billion annually.[4] Israeli defense equipment exports reached $7 billion in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. With the war in Ukraine, arms exports reached $12.5 billion in 2022.[5] Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[6][7][8] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel’s largest arms market in the world.[9][10]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

TheFonz ,

This is correct and I wish was more widely known.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I honestly don't care if the Arab world stomps them flat.

Standard disclaimer, this isn't an attempt to excuse Biden's support for Israel which is and has been unconscionable. But that being said:

I think the possibility of Israel being stomped flat is part of the calculus that underlies American support for them. They're surrounded by powerful enemies like Iran, and a whole unanimous coalition of nations full of military and political leaders who go to sleep at night dreaming of the lifelong stamp of heroism that would stem from being part of the holy alliance that finally wiped them out.

Whatever crimes against humanity their "defense" forces commit and are committing, the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn't win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.

And it could happen. The world is not a nice place. Part of running the State Department is dealing in horrifying outcomes like that, and it happens every year in a few places across the globe, to people we haven't taken pains to make friends and allies of (and sometimes even to people like the Kurds that we have).

We used to love like brothers and sisters various leaders all over the world who did genocidal things like Netanyahu, and I'm sure we still do, but it's not an everyday thing now like it was in the 80s and 90s. But there's some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel. There's a popular theory on Lemmy that it's simply because Biden is evil and loves genocide, and certainly AIPAC is a part and simple racism and lack of care for dying civilians in the Mideast is a part, but to me I think one of the powerful drivers is the fear of what might happen if the rest of the Middle East ever got the idea that they could try to fuck up Israel and the US might not be there to make sure it didn't happen.

Let the accusations commence. Like I say, I'm trying to explain, not to excuse, and besides nothing in any of that above would have stopped them having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says "We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked."

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says “We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked.”

Oh, I wouldn’t do that. Just drop him in the middle of Rafah and let him walk home.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

"What's the matter, tough guy? Don't they have a right to fight their enemies? Don't they have a right to defend themselves, with or without international support?"

koper ,

The scenario you describe is so far from reality that it’s hard to take as something other than a creative writing exercise. Israel is not existentially threatened at all. The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region and Israel was just in the process of normalizing relations with some of its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. All the military support from the USA isn’t saving anyone, it’s just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region

Individually, probably so. Collectively?

There's a fuck of a lot of countries there. Some of them (Saudi Arabia) have bigger militaries than Israel even individually, and some of them (Iran) have lots of land and people and some certain amount of money, and lots of alliances with lots of rowdy guys with guns and rockets.

Israel and MBS and the West being all buddy buddy with each other and fuck what 99.9% of the people in that part of the world think about it, is one of those things that can change.

it's just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy

I won't at all disagree with that. All the homies love big weapons packages. Whatever else is going on in the world, throwing over a hundred billion dollars to weapons suppliers is always a popular decision in DC.

and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct

I don't at all believe that killing children is affirmatively a priority in Washington. I think that depending on the nationality of the children, it can be an acceptable item on the balance sheet to be factored in against other priorities. 😢

Cryophilia ,

But there’s some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel.

Lemmy is stupid, so you shouldn’t pay attention to popular lemmy theories. But you’ve got it wrong too.

Christians need Israel to exist in order for their prophecy to be fulfilled. That’s the reason for the vast majority of the support Israel gets in the US. They don’t care about Israel as a state, or Jews, or anything else. It’s just a practical matter. One of the preconditions for the End Times is Israel existing.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

That variety of "Christian" certainly exists in America but I don't think they are as powerful as they used to be and I don't think they are in charge of the State Department (I mean... not currently, at least.)

Cryophilia ,

You probably only think that because you’ve gone out of your way to exclude them from your life. They still very much exist. They’re a majority of people who care about the middle east in any way.

and I don’t think they are in charge of the State Department

Anything that popular has sway with the government.

Crashumbc ,

You don’t live here and aren’t paying attention then…

Those are exactly the people in control of the Republican party right now and the ones Trump is promising the world to in his bid to get elected. (And become a dictator)

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Hence why I said not currently

Crashumbc ,

But the Republicans have that power NOW. They don’t have complete power, but that doesn’t mean they and their policies aren’t affecting the US.

Baroness_Buttslut ,
@Baroness_Buttslut@sh.itjust.works avatar

Surrounded by powerful armies like Iran

Take a good look at a map, buddy.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

https://mbin.grits.dev/media/0b/a2/0ba225dea892093cec3ee8fe28ff333df66d3cfca85c2b6c08bf71b6de705274.webp

Okay done, I looked at a map

Now what?

Danquebec ,

You should definitely color Lebanon.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

You are correct. I wasn't trying to be super accurate about it, just trying to make the point, but Lebanon is an important omission.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Fascists make the world their enemy and then claim everyone is out to get them.

It’s actually a pretty core aspect of the 40k universe btw, just throwing that out there because no one seems to bring it up.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

It's absolutely true. I'm just talking about how the US may be viewing the realpolitik of the situation and their interest in it, not saying anything about if it's just or unjust. If you want my judgement about it, Israel did it to themselves this situation, yes, 100%.

IndustryStandard ,

axios.com/…/american-troops-middle-east-israel-pa…

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4c73df6e-4a88-4431-a713-4e25b515e159.png

There are many bases in other countries willing to work with the US. Saudi Arabia appears a more conforming “ally” than Israel.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Some of the blue countries are in very good terms with Israel.

hark , (edited )
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn’t win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.

But if footage of what’s actually happening to Palestinians right now is shown then nothing happens? Their lives aren’t worth anything in the eyes of Americans?

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

You broke the code yes

😢

It is changing slowly but that doesn’t do anything for someone whose child is dying quickly, right now

Part of it is just the news. They would present it VERY differently and in a much more compelling fashion than they present what’s happening in Palestine today. But that’s only part. The average American also cares far more about white people and countries that are “our friends” than they do about people who are neither of those things.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

At this point, I honestly don’t care if the Arab world stomps them flat.

You would likely end up caring a whole helluva lot when Israel hammers their red funni button and turns the capital cities of the attacking nations into glass.

People can claim that they wouldn’t do it but THE use case for nukes is existential threat…and that’s exactly what you’re describing. Its in those exact situations that Atomic Fire comes out to play.

Maeve ,

That's an interesting thought experiment you prompted. I think Bibi would hit the button before Kim or Putin. It's a craps shoot though. Pun not intended.

x4740N ,

Who is bibi ?, I know who Kim and putin are but not whoever that is

eric5949 ,

Netanyahu’s nickname is Bibi.

Crashumbc ,

Definitely Bibi first no question.

The other two are way more of a toss up.

Maeve ,

Idk, but it's interesting to contemplate, especially since I just learned after I posted that that Kim and Putin have entered a new agreement. This timeline is certainly exciting, but I'm ready to jump to another!

Shadehawk25 ,

Right? Benny nets has completely ruined any good faith left in the world for the jews after the holocaust. (by that I mean Israel, not Jewish people abroad)

Maeve ,

Israel has plenty of supporters. I'm sorry for the Israelis who view this with dismay and will suffer for it.

return2ozma OP ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

Not another weapon. Cut off funding.

andrewrgross ,

Yeah, and more importantly, Biden needs to learn the public component of diplomacy.

I read his interview in Time, and it’s weird, because it at least gave me some aspect into what he’s thinking.

He’s old as fuck. He has learned decades of procedures and standard practice in diplomacy, and he does NOT understand that a lot of it happens in the open now. Biden thinks he’s playing chess with all the diplomatic messages he sends along backchannels, and he has no idea that this is just an arm wrestling match now. People judge you by what you say and do transparently.

Biden legit thinks he and Bibi are like cousins who grew up together who are having a tough fight, and Bibi is all fucking politics. He’d slit any throat he has to get what he wants, and he will bury Biden in a heartbeat.

Biden should go to Israel, and in a public address announce that the country is turning a corner: it will be safer than ever, and America is going to assist with a long term peace process, which they won’t lead but will provide security guarantees for. And don’t tell Bibi any of this in advance. And when Bibi reacts, say that Bibi has lost his trust and that of the elected public, and they need to hold new elections before getting any new weapons. Get some 'nads, man!

I wouldn’t mind a complete cut-off in weapons, but I also wouldn’t mind if they continue to supply rocket defenses or something if its part of a pressure campaign to send Netanyahu packing. I want Israeli prosecutors and the Hague to argue over who gets to lock his ass up first.

alcoholicorn ,

part of a pressure campaign to send Netanyahu packing

4% of Jewish Israelis feel the IDF has gone too far

This isn’t just Netanyahu or his administration, this is most non-arab Israelis. Every time you translate an Israeli twitter post or media, it’s like you found a lost page from Mein Kampf

andrewrgross , (edited )

That is very true. Joey Ayoub of The Fire These Times coined a phrase months ago for describing the mainstreaming of genocidal ideation among the public, which I keep returning to: “The Smotrich-ization of the Israeli public”. It’s real, and it’s terrifying.

Still, my impression is that Israelis are in a weird, weird, weird place:

  • They are largely supportive of the war, but most want a ceasefire deal that would bring home the hostages.
  • They are largely furious at Netanyahu, though his support has recently started to go back up.
  • There has been enormous pro-democracy anti-government protests before the war, then there were demonstrations demanding negotiations for a hostage release that were supposed to be explicitly distinct from anti-government demonstrators, and there are also pro-ceasefire, pro-hostage demonstrations that are explicitly NOT distinct from the pro-democracy anti-government demonstrations.
  • Most Israelis don’t believe the war has “gone too far”, but also many Israelis feel that the war has been mishandled (largely due to the cost on Israeli troops, the economy, and international standing).
  • There is support for the IDF, but also fury and blame at the IDF for failing so catastrophically during Oct. 7.
  • There is also widespread anger at the far right for insisting on exempting the ultraorthodox from conscription, while troop shortages force middle-age reservists back into service, but there’s no clear indication that anyone has any leverage to impose on the far and ULTRA FAR right, who have been essentially governing Israel with smug impunity for months now.
  • And, overall, Israelis seem to like Biden a lot.

I apologize that i don’t have sources for each of these, these are just a collection of insights I recall reading in the last few months.

Ultimately, I think they’re largely out of answers AND being herded aggressively by a well-tuned state propaganda machine, which means that I think their attitudes are in flux. I think they could be led in many directions, and many futures are possible. Right now though, the most successful shepherds are Smotrich and Ben-Givir.

Lastly, there are a few very small Palestinian-Jewish unity groups. These may look irrelevant considering their numbers are so few, but when people ask where we could find leaders capable of negotiating peace (considering most of the Palestinian ones have been killed to prevent any peace process), I think this would be where we’d find them. Despite their numbers, they terrify the far right. They face extreme threats of violence, and I think that reaction belies the threat they pose to Jewish Supremacy.

Cryophilia ,

Damn, it’s a shame that you - who are clearly so much smarter and more knowledgeable than everyone involved - aren’t running things. Surely no armchair general would ever second guess your approach to handling complex international diplomacy.

I’m glad at least someone has it all figured out, if only Biden would reach out to you personally.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

I think we have an obligation to provide Iron Dome defensive munitions as long as there is threat of attack on Israel. Despite common opinion, there are plenty of innocent Israelis that are not behind Netanyahu or Zionism that deserve to live without being bombed, just like Palestinians.

Edit: Those of you that paint all Israelis with one brush are no better than Netanyahu labeling all Palestinians as Hamas. Just sayin.

alcoholicorn ,

there are plenty of innocent Israelis

That’s complicated. Would you have said we needed to continue supporting Apartheid South Africa’s military because there were innocent Boers?

When the Israeli national project is ended, then sure we’ll have a responsibility to ensure Palestine respects the rights of all people living in its territory.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Ask yourself. Were you an American citizen when when Trump enabled the sexual abuse of tens of thousands of immigrant children, or currently while Biden supports the Israeli genocide? Has your nation’s government ever acted in hostility against your interests? Are you complicit? Do you deserve protection from bombings?

alcoholicorn ,

No, but also kinda? It’s complicated. If someone had the power to help those immigrant children escape, it would be silly to pretend they must endure the continuing injustice for fear they might hurt an “innocent” escaping the concentration camp.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

What power do Israelis have in uninstalling Netanyahu? They’re protesting in the tens of thousands to remove him. It’s doing nothing. He was elected prior to Oct. 7 and the subsequent genocidal response. My point is, the actions of a government do not represent the entirety of its people.

Netanyahu has a favorability of 32% in Israel.

Trump is currently polling at 42% in the US.

Maeve ,

I mean, distanced emotionally? Should we be judged and judgement meted out differently than we and our dubious allies judged and delivered judgement? I prefer peace, but we are a warmongering nation. I don't want it to happen, but where I'm from, the saying goes, "if you keep picking, you'll eventually get what you're picking for."

Lionheadbud ,

Would Israelis be so in favour of war if bombs were landing on them too?

disguy_ovahea ,

It doesn’t matter if you look to the left or the right. There’s always a sickness that allows people to justify killing. It’s loathsome.

spartanatreyu ,
@spartanatreyu@programming.dev avatar

Looking back at history, it would lead to more propaganda and more support for going to war.

A population getting attacked only leads to that population wanting to an us vs them mentality and emotional knee-jerk reactions over rational responses.

Skydancer ,

Can’t help noticing that you make no mention of providing similar defensive capabilities to Palestine. Kind of undercuts your argument.

disguy_ovahea ,

I completely agree that the US should defend Palestinians, as well as assist in their reconstruction needs. I was talking about amending munitions agreements. In that respect, I think the US should exclusively provide Iron Dome defensive munitions to Israel. They deserve no support in attacking other nations.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

“During World War II, Churchill told the United States, ‘give us the tools, we’ll do the job.’ And I say, give us the tools and we’ll finish the job a lot faster,” Netanyahu said in the video.

Yeah, that’s what we’re afraid of, and exactly why we don’t want to give you the weapons.

ThePowerOfGeek ,
@ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world avatar

Comparing himself to Churchill defending the UK from the Nazis has got to be the shittiest analogy I’ve heard in a long time. You aren’t Churchill in this situation, Netanyahu. You’re the invader hell-bent on wiping out a population.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

TBH He’s just as racist as Churchill

ThePowerOfGeek ,
@ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world avatar

That is a very fair point!

There’s already a strong emotional connection between Irish and Palestinian people (as shown by Ireland being one of the first European countries to officially recognize Palestine recently). Now there’s another association - Churchill and Netanyahu’s loathing for their respective people.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

I was thinking India, actually. How he said Indians are a “beastly people with a beastly religion”, but yeah the Irish too.

ThePowerOfGeek ,
@ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world avatar

Oh he was a total shitheel to so many different people. Very effective wartime leader, but a horrible human being.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

A primer for those interested:

…wikipedia.org/…/Racial_views_of_Winston_Churchil…

Burn_The_Right ,

And just as genocidal as Hitler.

d00phy ,

It’s a simple dog whistle. He’s reminding everyone of the holocaust w/o saying the word.

vga ,

https://sopuli.xyz/pictrs/image/2b74ad86-3543-4d06-92a6-882c7121020a.webp

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/d4f3160a-bfc0-40ea-be8c-12e7864cf136.webm

Godric ,

Wait, I was told Jebocide Joe was all in on killing Palestinians?

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

almost as if the perpetual online slacktivist left is irrational

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

like a child complaining that mum grounded them and didn’t give them their allowance

assassin_aragorn ,

I don’t understand his angle here. He clearly has some sort of agenda, but I haven’t figured it out. Maybe he’s betting that this will turn some Democrats and moderates against Biden? But that requires believing that Netanyahu is telling the truth, which I don’t think a lot of Israel supporters necessarily do.

Either way, this is weird. Maybe he’s talking about the bombs that weren’t sent for Rafah? But getting pissed about one halted shipment out of everything they’ve been given is just fucking hilarious.

My guess – he’s aware his support is dwindling, and he’s trying to salvage it by blaming everyone else. Or, he’s daring the US to stop all shipments, but that would probably destroy his remaining support too.

Godric ,

Yes, you clearly seem confused.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Israel’s modus operandi is throwing anyone that does not 100% obey their commands under the bus instantly. It keeps all their loyal dogs in check and lets them know the slightest amount of disobedience is not allowed. One can do everything israel asks for 100 years and the one time they step out of line they will fully get thrown under the bus.

The question you should be asking here is what Joe Biden’s angle here is. Because Biden is still sending them 99% of the weapons. So apparently losing the election while israel is still committing Genocide.

JaymesRS ,

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

hakunawazo ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1b7017b6-386a-4ce2-b5eb-b1e3e92b8d0f.gif

Pacattack57 ,

Withholding? As if Isreal is entitled to our money and weapons.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

I don’t mind supporting countries that actually need it but even if the IDF was completely ethical, and they’re not, they still wouldn’t need a single bullet of aid.

Fedizen ,

would be funny if the military accidentally shipped it to ukraine

Killer57 ,

https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/332b21ee-6a6d-48a0-a26c-cc3c634a0804.jpeg

r0ertel ,

I came here for this. Thank you!

eran_morad ,

Feck off

thesporkeffect ,

Is this maybe a situation where Bibi knows he’s politically toxic and is (at least partially) running some cover for allies? I don’t think he’s that smart but it kinda works out that way, since I haven’t heard of delayed shipments recently otherwise

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

Bibi knows Biden is worse for him than Trump would be, so I think that’s unlikely

eestileib ,

Netanyahu is an OG Trump ally. He is going to try to screw Biden any way he can.

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