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metaphortune ,

Well yeah, but what this image doesn’t mention is what would happen to the shareholders if we had paid leave for all in the US 😰 /j

breadsmasher ,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

How could the poor, poor CEOs afford their super yachts?

MajorHavoc ,

And their 24 new cars!

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

No, what it doesn’t show is what the French people did to get all that paid leave.

KillingAndKindess ,
@KillingAndKindess@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Exactly!

The elite need to be reminded of the old ways. France is still champ in international internal politics. Their protests often end up being a real headbanger…

magnor ,
@magnor@lemmy.magnor.ovh avatar

And what we must still do, regularly, to fight against people taking social rights from us. This is a hard thing to do, and we have lost a few battles lately.

rickyrigatoni ,

Whatever it is, we should do it in America :)

uis ,

Something Great and French. Later Russia followed them with something Great and October. Got universal healthcare, universal education, universal housing and labour law as result.

aidan ,

Take 60% the salary

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

My dude is trying to make it about taxes. When in reality the French aren’t afraid to trash the streets and burn corporate HQs to get what they want. Taxes are our way of helping your fellow man. Do you not like to help your fellows?

aidan ,

No I’m not talking about taxes, I’m talking about the fact that french salaries are 60% American ones.

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

What is their average buying power within their relative market?

aidan ,

Almost a $20,000 PPP difference

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

That does suck on paper.

victorz , (edited )

Sweden:

  • 25-35 days vacation, most commonly.
  • Maternity + paternity leave: 480 days combined, per child, + 10 days unannounced allowed for the parent not giving birth, immediately following the birth.
  • Sick leave: almost ♾️ as far as I know, too…?

🇸🇪🥇❓

Edit: I’m curious about the other Scandinavian countries regarding this topic (including Finland). If anyone from those countries wants to contribute here, please feel free!

visnae ,

Isn’t it nowadays also grandparents can get some of the parental leave if they help with the child? Sick leave is not infinity, but you would need to get a long period of illness before anything happens I guess.

victorz ,

Yep, I believe so. And you can also even transfer parental leave to a friend, if they help with the child. We did this for a friend of ours who is a single mom and needed help with her child.

toofpic ,

pretty much the same in Denmark. I still don’t know how to spend all of the vacation days. We just used up Mandatory 3 summer weeks, and I’m kinda tired of resting this year, but I still have 3 weeks left

Tja ,

I had a similar situation last year after being on paternity leave 5 months and then still having 30 days of PTO.

Solution: 4 day work week. Either Wednesdays or Fridays off. I took Wednesdays. You have two “Fridays” per week and Friday is never more than one working day away. You get one day a week completely for you, kids in school, partner at work, every shop and office open. You can do any delayed paperwork, any repairs around the house, take a jew hobby, or just watch TV for 6 hours straight (wouldnt recommend every week but it took me back to my days of being sick from school).

If you are single and like traveling probably Fridays would be better.

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

take a jew hobby

Oh boy.

Tja ,

Wow, as far as typos go, that one was one of the more unfortunate ones… (I meant new!)

victorz ,

We usually use a day or two here and there to get long weekends where there are one-off holidays. It helps spend the days, and gives you some needed rest during the working period of the year. 👍

qarbone ,

Why isn’t there an emoji for rage-filled weeping of blood and gnashing of teeth?

Emojis are the only way I can express emotion.

toofpic ,

I’m sorry, I felt like bragging, but I really don’t know what to do with all that time, and one of the reasons is that I tend to spend money on vacations, and I don’t like to spend money, I like to save.
But really, it’s not Denmark or Sweden that good, it’s US laws are bad. Ok, in Denmark I have 5 weeks by law and one more from my company (which is a usual perk). But I moved there from Russia, where the working culture sucks (overtime, envelope salary, etc), and overal situation with any human rights is not that funny, but people still have 28 calendar day paid vacation.

victorz ,

but people [in Russia] still have 28 calendar day paid vacation.

Wow, that’s something I didn’t know before, or expected. TIL. 👍

toofpic ,

There are possibilities of shitty company’s behaviour though: in case of said “envelope” salary, you still get some part of it officially (like minimum wage), so if the place is shitty enough, they can pay you only the official part, so you have a “not-so-paid” vacation. Or they come up with some reasons to not sign your vacation: “why July? Look at the schedule and better take February! We’re family and family needs you now!”
It’s not everywhere like that - usually low-skill and/or blue-collar stuff. But I encountered that in IT when I was starting out (and didn’t have much choise with tetail jobs in my cv)

fine_sandy_bottom ,

How does infinite sick leave work?

In Australia an employer pays 12 or so days a year for personal leave, (+ 12 public holidays + 20 days annual leave).

Any additional sick leave is unpaid.

An employer couldn’t really be expected to pay sick leave indefinitely. Is it paid by some kind of insurance or social security?

You can claim a govt pension for illness. It’s difficult to qualify long term though.

Krzd ,
@Krzd@lemmy.world avatar

In Germany your employer has to pay for all sick leave up to continuous 6 weeks. After that insurance pays you 60% of your last paycheck. There are a lot of exceptions, for example if it’s a work related accident your employer has to pay 100% of your last paycheck indefinitely until you go into early/disability retirement.

victorz ,

Oh shit. Somebody quick come pour that vat of frying oil over me so I can live my best life.

dafo , (edited )

Let’s say I get sick

Day 1: 0% pay Day 2-14: 80% pay from my employer

Day 15-90: “barely” 80% from Försäkringskassan, up to a relatively low ceiling (disfavours those with high incomes, doesn’t really affect the common worker). With a collective agreement from a union you could also get an additional 10-15%(?) from your employer

Day 90-: pretty much the same, the 10% from the employer is replaced by insurance instead. If you’re sick this long it’ll be a bit of a bureaucratic PITA

Edited to fix formatting

fluckx ,

In Belgium There’s a social security system that pays your wage when you’re sick up a certain maximum. The first month(4 weeks) you get sick is fully paid by the employer. After that you get paid by social security for 60% of your wage up until a certain maximum.

If you are absent from work for 8 months ( cancer, surgery, burn out, … ) you would be paid for every day you are absent, albeit less after a month.

While sick you are also protected from being fired. So employers can’t fire you because you’re out fighting cancer. It is mostly adhered to. If an employer would fire somebody who got cancer or because they got a burn-out/depression I’d probably find a different employer.

It’s a good system, but with its own challenges ( abuse ). I honestly can’t imagine having a fixed amount of paid sick days.

your employer can always “challenge” your sickness by sending a company physician, which they’d have to pay for. Some companies do it per definition, others never, some only when they suspect abuse.

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

How does infinite sick leave work?

At one of my previous jobs (in the US) we had unlimited Paid Time Off. In practice, you’re still under the same pressure to get shit done or get canned so you don’t really take any more time off than you would have otherwise. And when you’re eventually canned anyway in order to boost the stock price, you don’t have any accrued time off that has to be paid out in a lump sum.

Obi ,
@Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

Yeah US style unlimited PTO is a joke, it was so transparent what it was really trying to achieve when my American colleagues got it at my old job.

uis ,

25-35 days vacation,

Ok, Sweeden is better than Russia(at least 28 days). After Pu goes to Hauge(or Russian prison) things may change.

Wait, we were comparing to USA? Yeah, we know it’s a corpse.

Sibbo ,

480 days are not paid are they? Because in Finland and Germany you get about one year paid that you can distribute between the parents. And up to two more years unpaid.

victorz ,

480 days, paid. You can’t distribute between the parents here however you like though. Only 45 days are transferable between partners, to encourage equal time spent with the child.

Also some amount of days out of the 480 are of one level of compensation, and the rest are of another level. I don’t recall the specifics of that off the top of my head, though.

protist ,

*mandated paid leave

There are a ton of people in the US who have really good paid leave policies at their jobs, it’s just that there are also a ton of people who have really bad leave policies at their jobs

sunzu ,

Cope Haha

JFC

Also what % of working population = "a ton"

Asking for a friend

unexposedhazard ,

Yeah i have yet to meet a US citizen that wasnt surprised by the difference in work culture in the EU.

cestvrai ,

I like that my colleagues are happy that I am going on holiday rather than feeling betrayed.

Also, insane how sick leave in the US needs a doctor’s note immediately and is limited.

aidan ,

I’m a US citizen, worked in the EU. Was surprised people were willing to stay until 8pm, never saw that in the US. But this was in very white collar jobs.

protist ,

According to the BLS, about 45% of nonunion workers in the private sector have paid vacation time and about 75% have paid sick leave. The numbers are quite a bit higher in unionized and public sector jobs. A bunch of states have implemented various mandatory paid leave laws. At the nonunion hospital I used to work at here in Texas, everyone got about 6 weeks of paid time off, which could be used as sick time or vacation time, plus 9 paid holidays. This included housekeeping, food services, nurses, everyone.

I’m not coping, I clearly stated above the current situation is really bad for a lot of people, but it’s also not “zero paid leave for everyone in the US” as implied by the graphic

sunzu ,

You are still coping but thanks for the numbers.

protist ,

Ok

otp ,

Yes, that’s the point.

There are a ton of people in the US who have none of that paid leave.

In France (and many other countries), paid leave is a right that’s protected by law. So everyone gets it.

Your comment is kind of like saying “It doesn’t matter what minimum wage is because lots of people make more than minimum wage!”

protist ,

I didn’t say at all that it doesn’t matter

sunzu ,

You did bring up a valid point and people should know fwcts but in modern context, ain't nobody got time for nuance.

otp ,

I don’t think anybody who sees this would think that literally nobody in the USA has a job that offers any paid time off.

aidan ,

“It doesn’t matter what minimum wage is because lots of people make more than minimum wage!”

Which is kinda true when essentially no-one except for teenagers makes minimum wage.

otp ,

essentially no-one except for teenagers makes minimum wage.

Do you have a source for that?

aidan ,

1.1% of workers earned the minimum wage or less

44% being under 25, despite only 20% of total workers being under 25.

This data doesn’t not include tips or commissions.

70% of those earning at or below minimum wage worked in hospitality, 65% food preparation and serving related. 49% were part time workers.

0.8% of all workers earned minimum wage or below, but 3.1% of 16-19 year olds did.

Unfortunately it doesn’t break down with tips/commissions. But you can sort of innacurrately guess at it by seeing that 57% of the below minimum wage is 25+. This means they are earning tips (assuming their not paid illegally). So, majority of those earning minimum wage without tips are probably 16-24.

otp ,

Thank you for the source. 1.1% is a small percentage, but a lot of people, especially when talking about a country the size of the US.

Another element that’s difficult to capture, but relevant, is how many people are making wages that would be influenced by a raised minimum wage? Raising it one dollar would probably capture a lot of people. Raising it $5 even more. The $15/h some places were championing for would likely capture quite a lot of people, especially of it were enacted nation-wide, but I understand that that’s a very far reach.

I worked at a place that paid minimum wage + X, where X was based on experience and such. This included new hires. At some point, they stopped bumping previous employees up when minimum wage went up, and of course they wondered why a lot of long-term staff were quitting lol

aidan ,

Thats definitely true to an extent

TheMightyCanuck ,
@TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

Found out this year my country offers father’s (up to a combined) 52 weeks paternity leave with pay (~60% full time earnings)

Couldn’t imagine just dropping this little guy on my wife and heading to work the next day

pyre ,

I’ve always found it dumb that fathers get less paid leave. but i guess it’s better than… checks notes… zero.

TheMightyCanuck ,
@TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

You could make the argument that they don’t have massive body trauma to heal from…

But I think the time is more important to form that first bond more than anything

silasmariner ,

Bonding time is important but it’s also important to get into the habit of looking after the children as a father. Otherwise odds on you won’t manage to bond very well with either your child or the mother 😅

AA5B ,

That’s the problem, what we have is reasonable for physical recovery after giving birth. However we need a political party to champion “family values” or something to help parents take care of the kid after they are born

AA5B ,

True story - the time I almost got direct immediate benefit from a feminist organization …… when my kids were born, there was no leave so the best I could do was one week vacation. However a good friend of mine thought it was unfair so got together with her feminist group and petitioned the company for paternity leave!

They didn’t go for it, at least in time to help me, but they did do it before FMLA made them do something

Showroom7561 ,

Jesus. I wouldn’t know what to do with 30 days vacation per year. That would be life changing.

otp ,

Don’t want to spend all your money on vacations? Just take Fridays off during your favourite season to spend outdoors!

cestvrai ,

I take all Fridays off (4x8), but I only have 27 days PTO because of that rather than 33.

johan ,
@johan@feddit.nl avatar

Where I’m from a 36 hour work week is the norm. I work 4 × 9 hours and have every Wednesday off (plus I have like 9 weeks off every year). Some colleagues do work 40 hours a week and then save a day off every two weeks. A friend does this and he takes one fairly long holiday (like a month) and also a week or two off every two months or something.

And you can also take a sabbatical and be guaranteed of your job when you get back. A guy I know from another department took a year off to take a trip around the world with his girlfriend.

crapwittyname , (edited )

I used to work in France. The 30 days is just the beginning. I ended up with 44 paid holidays per year towards the end of my contract. There are different types of paid leave and I got 9 days extra because one of my children has a disability.

However, the work culture in France is extremely toxic. You face a sort of social othering if you don’t conform with the unspoken rules which are even harder to understand if French is not your first language. Punishments include being managed/bored out and being “put in the cupboard” where you’re given a dead end role and basically left to rot until retirement. There’s a history of work related suicide in France.

Even so, you are a lot more free than in other countries. I’m not complaining. Plus, unions still have actual powers there (although they’re being eroded down)

jerkface ,
@jerkface@lemmy.ca avatar

yeah, I’ll be really sad about that taking two months of vacation a year

UnsavoryMollusk ,

I guess when the environment is toxic af, you need more vacation

slickgoat ,

Australia too. At least until we imported all that “contractor” bullshit from overseas. After 1 year service you get four weeks leave - every year.

travysh ,

Between my current job (unlimited PTO) and my last (30 days PTO) I’ve had 30+ for the last 10 years.

Last year I used 35+ days.

A lot of it goes to smaller things. 1 or 2 days here and there. Few days camping, turn a 3 day weekend in to a 4 day, etc… It really can change how you use your time.

TheBat ,
@TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

That’s just bare minimum mandated by law. Some companies offer even more than that.

Ashiette ,

I’m in France and have ~120 paid vacation days per year. My full time is 18h/week. The pay is okayish. But for all those advantages, it’s great.

Obi ,
@Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

Teacher?

bitchkat , (edited )

I get 30 some days of vacation and I forget what for sick. Believe me, you’d figure out how to use it.

Showroom7561 ,

Believe me, you’d figure out how to use you.

For sure. I tend to take every friday off with my vacation time, but that’s really only for a few months. If I could do that for half the year, it really would change my life.

bitchkat ,

I have a couple of longer vacations I do every year. I take 10 days off for nationals and post nationals recovery for a sport I’m involved with. And I like to finish the year with two weeks off at the end of the year. It’s the best way to maximize number of consecutive days off to the number of vacation days required.

uis ,

Live life

HexadecimalSky ,

Reminds me of a comedians joke,

American: and how many sick days go you get off?

European: All of them? If you’re sick, you don’t go to work…

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That’s not a joke, that’s just a fact. A sad fact for some of us on the left side of the pond.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Crazy how Europe outperformed the US during COVID.

TheDoozer ,

So… I’m not shilling for the military, but…

Coast guard gets 30 days of leave, 3 months of paternity leave, and unlimited sick days.

Just saying.

Edit: to be clear, US Coast Guard.

pythonoob ,

USAF too

PugJesus ,

When one’s employer has lower regard for their employee’s welfare than the US military, something is well and truly borked.

t. many military friends and family with infinite horror stories about health damage outside of combat zones and lots of “Not Service Related” responses

SendMePhotos ,

So… A big blue retail company is on par… When I worked there I got 16 weeks of paternity leave paid (well, between a mixture of paid leave and PTO), 31 days of PTO, and… Any sick days came out of the PTO.

Was a salaried manager.

Can’t believe I’m saying it, but nobody has ever been able to come close to their benefits that I know of, at least in the US.

Obi ,
@Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

Costco?

Doxatek ,

It’d be cool except the non zero chance of catching a bullet just because I wanted to have benefits other people have for free… and I know that I could be shot in civilian life too. But like, doesn’t that just make it worse

TheDoozer ,

I suppose. I’m far more likely to die in a helicopter crash. Never been shot at, nor have just about anybody I’ve worked with. The only people who have gone to a war zone in the past couple decades were people who specifically requested it.

Though I have worked with a few who survived helicopter crashes (five, between two crashes), so definitely not without its dangers. That’s the specific job I chose, though. Plenty of jobs in the Coast Guard with paper cuts or oven-related burns as the most danger they’ll experience.

Got_Bent ,

Good high school friend of mine was career Coast guard. He was a flight commander for one of those big helicopters and retired with some high falutin’ upper level officer rank.

He told me that there were a lot of details he couldn’t tell me but that he’d lost several of his colleagues in crashes.

He also implied that there were some bullets flying out of fast boats coming from the south.

Poor guy took up regional jet piloting right after he retired and almost immediately got the Parkinson’s. To conclude and show his character, he self reported himself out of a job long before the symptoms were externally visible.

Doxatek ,

That’s true! There can definitely be really good opportunities there. I just like to be contrarian

aidan ,

It’d be cool except the non zero chance of catching a bullet

In the coast guard? I think you’d have a higher risk just walking in many cities.

Doxatek ,

Well more just the military in general. It’s mostly just free college roulette. My uncle got free college but also he was almost blown up in a rocket attack. His friends from the same rocket attack didn’t make it to college…

I mostly hear military people from where I am say “there is free education! You pansies just have to earn it” idk just seems problematic to me haha

aidan ,

Well there’s a lot of roles you can join for with basically no risk of being shot…

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

Edit: to be clear, US Coast Guard.

Was about to say, the Lesotho coast guard doesn’t have anything that good.

catloaf ,

Lesotho doesn’t have a coast.

Then again, Switzerland is also landlocked, but they do have a navy.

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

Lesotho doesn’t have a coast.

Uh, that might have been the joke.

catloaf ,

I know. I just wanted to bring up one of my favorite weird facts, the existence of the Swiss navy.

Senshi ,

But it’s not really true. Switzerland has no naval branch of its armed forces.

It has a dozen or so of 10t patrol boats armed with a single 50cal MG for its lakes, and those are organized in a single motor boat company, which is staffed and manned by the military engineers branch.

Their duties are supporting the border guard (police) on the lakes against trespass/ smugglers and assisting (civilian) search& rescue.

catloaf ,

As far as I’m concerned, that’s a navy.

Valmond ,

The obligatory (paid ofc) vacation is 5 weeks not 6.

Lots of people have more, like 6 weeks + 12-24 RTT (days you can take here and there, it’s really great) and sometimes you can trade them for money etc., with the exception of the 5 weeks.

Louisoix ,

And some people say it’s a toxic work culture in Japan. I mean, it’s far from perfect, but still not like the example here.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

The toxic culture in Japan stems from the unspoken expectations.

You have a 40 hour schedule, but you’re expected to be in the office for +60. You get vacation time, but it’s shameful to use it. Women (particularly young women) aren’t given promotions or professional advancement because it’s assumed they’ll quit to become housewives as soon as they find a husband of a higher station.

All that shit you hear about microaggression, implicit bias, and structural racism run rampant in the Japanese corporate world.

dejected_warp_core ,

There’s some hope though. Younger people are starting to call bullshit on all this. Perhaps the fact that there’s an abudance of overworked old people everywhere is helping drive different thinking for everyone else: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQs4NERVZxc

ILikeBoobies , (edited )

When Japan capped overtime to 45 hours per month

It became shameful to log your overtime

Also to get time and a half you need to work over 60 hours but you don’t get that if you aren’t logging

pingveno ,

Yikes, that’s lawsuit territory in the US. Like, my uncle was a lawyer on a lawsuit with similar facts.

ILikeBoobies ,

Historically Japanese lawsuits around overtime had been companies suing employees for claiming wages

pingveno ,

At the place that I interned in software development, there was a period of time before I was there where the hours were starting to creep to long enough that the workers (salaried) were effectively being paid less than minimum wage. Legend has it that there was a mention of a lawsuit if the company didn’t shape up. One coworker who had been there at that point described it as a dark point in the company’s history. In response, they temporarily switched to hourly and 40 hours a week.

Later, some people apparently started working over 40 hours a week of their own volition. Workaholics, I guess. At the behest of one of the people on my team, the CIO talked to them about sticking to normal hours. Part of it was that people just aren’t great developers after already working a long day. The other part was that no one else wanted to slide back into those long working hours. A few people also had had kids in the intervening years, so I don’t think they wanted to see their hours eaten by work.

_ffiresticks_ ,

In Massachusetts where I’m lucky enough to live, everyone is given at least 12 weeks paid bonding time for birth of a child that can be taken as needed for up to one year after birth of their child. The birthing parents also gets 6-8 weeks of additional paid time. I think some other New England states also have a similar benefits. It’s an awesome program that should be modeled around the rest of the nation. Really IMO it should be a full 52 weeks, but I’ll take it as a solid starting point

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t that due to Mitt Romney of all people? Part of “Romneycare?” I don’t want to give him credit, but that’s what I seem to remember.

_ffiresticks_ ,

Actually “Romneycare” is what we call masshealth and it’s the ACA before the ACA was national. Essentially mandated but state subsidized health insurance on a sliding scale. The Paid Family Medical Leave with inclusion if bonding time is a different program and only came into effect in the past year or two with an additional payroll tax paid by every employee and employer in MA (it’s a pretty tiny surcharge though, and to be transparent you only get 60% of your wages up to a certain amount, I think 1100/wk, while your taking the time). Here’s to hoping the federal govt will someday follow.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for the explanation.

AShadyRaven ,

im in Virginia and one time i had a really bad norovirus infection and my employer told me i would terminated if i didn’t show up and that he couldnt do anything about it (this was my 6th sick day in the past 11 months)

i showed up and had an accident on myself, very messy. Norovirus messy.

I walked into his office, reeking like hell, and i asked him if he had any mints or febreeze

He tried to send me home to change and i declined.

Nurgus ,

I think we’re all hoping you successfully infected your boss.

AShadyRaven ,

no clue, i had spent the last 48 hours losing all the moisture in my body so i was pretty dehydrated and had a fever

that entire week was like a weird dream

i really should not have driven a car in the physical state i was in, tbh

otp ,

Where I live in Canada, we used to have 0 paid sick days, then we got 3 days shortly before an election, and they lost and the replacement party removed those 3 paid sick days.

They also chopped down the unpaid sick days from 10 to 3, probably hoping nobody would notice.

Nobody noticed. They got re-elected with a majority vote (done by about 1/3 of the voting population)

RudeOnTuesdays ,

Yeah. Ontario voters and smooth brains. Name a better combination.

BoredPanda ,

But you also get half the salary, compared to the US. Taxes are probably on a similar level, but you get more for your taxes in France.

It’s not all good. As a single, somewhat ambitious guy living in Europe, I’m planning to move to the US, because building wealth in most of Europe is much harder, so you are effectively a slave of the system. You get a barely livable salary, you pay half of it to the taxman, and half of the remaining net salary in rent (or mortgage). If you are a single guy like me, you get barely anything in return. And since the European economy is struggling, and European governments are going all in on austerity, the situation regarding taxes and social benefits will only deteriorate.

PTO is nice, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. At the end of the day, I feel better having the freedom in the shape of $$$ in my pocket, compared to being at the mercy of a government, which I don’t fully trust, to treat me well.

Keltha ,

I feel you’re discarding the free education and Healthcare system you were able to enjoy (because it’s available for everyone) until you’ve decided you could do better for yourself by yourself.

As a single straight healthy educated white dude, yes you could probably do better for yourself in the US, it just takes forsaking the meaning of solidarity. As long you don’t do the usual thing of coming back to Europe whenever you’re sick / having children because “it’s just so expensive in the US and it’s harder to have a family life there”

BoredPanda ,

Healthcare is not free. I pay 250€/month here in Germany, and I literally cannot even access it at all. I go to the doctor and get turned away. They have this shitty two tiered system where unless you have the private insurance or are a pensioner, you have to fight against a thousand bureaucratic dragons to get any service out of it.

University is not free either. I paid 500€/semester and had to source my own food and accommodation. And although I got a degree, you cannot really compare, even the top of the top of German universities with places like MIT or Stanford where you get so much prestige and networking opportunities. One has to compare apples to apples.

I am for both universal healthcare and education, but Americans need to understand that you aren’t going to get the American service for the European price point.

Liz ,

I went to the cheapest public university I got into here in the US. An extremely standard university. I paid $10,000 per semester in tuition, not including books and fees. Do you really think American education is twenty times better?

ButteredMonkey ,

USA here. I like in one of the areas with the lowest cost to living in the USA (Kentucky). I just paid my daughter’s fall tuition to the University of Kentucky yesterday. It’s a state school which accepts 95% of those who apply. Average SAT ~1100. (My point, by no means is it a selective school.) Her tuition for one semester was $6851 or 6275 €. This does not include housing, food, or living expenses.

I don’t want to get into USA vs anyone else, as everyplace is different, with their own areas that make them stand out or not. However when it comes to post-secondary education and healthcare in terms of COST (not quality) the USA quantitatively lags well behind Western Europe.

BoredPanda ,

This is becoming a fruitless discussion without getting into the specifics.

Here’s the thing, with my talent and experience, I could easily be earning 4x as much as I do here in Germany. I work in AI, it’s super hot right now. But here in Germany the only job for me is in the public sector, where I get paid like a lowly government employee. It’s completely ridiculous when compared to what my fellows in the US are earning. I earn around $45,000 of which I net $25,000 after taxes, of which $12,000 I pay in rent per year. And my benefits? A fixed two year contract. It’s not even a permanent position.

I have colleagues who decided to pay out of pocket some $120k to do an MSc. in California so they could access the tech network there and secure a job, and all of them are financially better off than I am.

qarbone ,

Wow, cool that they had $120,000 just sitting around to pay for things. Almost sounds like they were already financially better off than you.

And rich enough already.

JoeBigelow ,
@JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca avatar

Thus will be such a fun fuck around find out for you my guy. Really enjoy it.

nlgranger ,

AI companies in the USA are located is super expensive areas, I always wonder if the quality of life is actually better for these types of jobs. There is also meta in Paris, Google in London, etc. have you considered that ?

aidan ,

If you’re a decent student you can do the governors scholar program and get a full ride for any in KY school. At least where I live in the Europe unis are much more selective than the US, many people don’t even go to highschool, and I know people in their 20s still trying to graduate.

Draedron ,

Stop lying. The majority of doctors here take public insurance and they dont turn you away when you have public insurance. You can even call your insurance and they help you get an appointment at a Facharzt.

aidan ,

Can’t speak for Germany, but can speak for your neighbors in Poland and Czech Republic to say that yes they do turn people away(or really say you need to wait X number of months which would be long after your condition is way worse), but you can pay just a bit more and go to a private clinic and be treated right away.

chiliedogg ,

I pay more than double that for my insurance, and they still deny care and determine which doctors I can see. I have to wait months to see specialists, and I have to spend $5,000 a year cash before insurance pays a dime.

And education at a public university can cost 10 grand a semester just for tuition. 500 euros wouldn’t cover a parking tag.

Wizard_Pope ,
@Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world avatar

You do realise a lot of places in Europe would lrefer you have a european uni degree over any american one. The systems are not the same.

aidan ,

Nowhere near all of Europe has free healthcare. And healthcare in a lot of countries is tbh terrible in terms of actually seeing a doctor.

Ookami38 ,

Bud, you’re in for a haaaaaaaaaaaarsh awakening if you think all of those negatives in your second paragraph isn’t exactly what the states are, magnified.

EnderMB ,

I work in a big tech company, and there are probably interns in NY/Cali that get paid better than I do as an experienced engineer in the UK.

Most of the people I work with in NYC live like students, despite having a yearly salary that could probably cover a sizable chunk of a UK pension. I own a house and have enough saved to not need to work for several months, yet there are people that vastly outearn me in the US and still get fucked by healthcare costs, rent, house prices, etc.

I do understand that building wealth is tricky, but I think you’ll be extremely shocked at how high the costs are in some places, and how many people that do build wealth are rolling the dice on health insurance and not taking sick days/vacation. I’m considering a move to LA this year, and despite a high-band salary my life will likely be considerably worse, purely looking at the rent prices in/near Santa Monica…

KevonLooney ,

looking at the rent prices in/near Santa Monica…

You are thinking of walking to work? You’re going to be commuting like everyone else. That’s why everyone in LA is stuck in traffic. Or just work from home.

shasta ,

You know NYC and California are outliers, right?

EnderMB ,

They’re also the highest pay band for most companies, which is why many people want to go to NYC or the Bay area to work.

aidan ,

which is why many people want to go to NYC or the Bay area to work.

No its not, its because those are more preferable places to work. When you’re paid 15% more but your cost of living is 70% more its not worth it.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Income scales with cost of living. They’re only outliers by scale. They’re right in line with the marginal living conditions of Americans (living poor because costs outpace wages).

aidan ,

They’re right in line with the marginal living conditions of Americans (living poor because costs outpace wages).

Except wages are half of US wages(nationwide), with relatively similar cost of living in Europe.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

relatively similar cost of living in Europe.

If you discount health care, transit, and education, ignore paid time off benefits, and try not to think about how much lead is in our drinking water? I guess.

aidan ,

If you discount health care,

Your employer usually pays your healthcare in both cases, US does have deductibles, and a very stupid system if you’re self-employed. But personally, being under 26, I’ve had a far better experience with US healthcare. I’ve been able to be treated, and my family members haven’t been neglected(not saying it doesn’t happen though). My partner was told he’d have to wait 6+ months to see a specialist for ear infection treatment when it didn’t go away after 1 round of anti-biotics in Europe. A relative of mine has to travel to the US for treatment that was deemed a waste in her home country, in the hospital she was staying in her whole wing was so neglected that their chamber pots were overflowing and they weren’t being properly fed. This was in a European capital city(Prague).

transit

Depends on the city, but a cheap 90s or 00s sedan generally won’t cost enough to make up for that extra 40-60%

education

I know a fair number of people who went to private highschools because they couldn’t even get into public ones. But its true uni is cheaper in Europe if you can get in- but its nowhere near a necessity.

and try not to think about how much lead is in our drinking water?

If you think you have lead in your drinking water, call your water company, they’ll probably send you a free test kit.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Your employer usually pays your healthcare

In the United States? That’s not true at all. Roughly half of American workers don’t get health insurance from the employer. And that’s before you consider folks who lose their jobs after suffering a medical emergency.

aidan ,

Roughly 40% of Americans aren’t employed.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

you also get half the salary, compared to the US

Twice the salary for twice the work load isn’t more money.

I had a friend who got a NY white shoe law job. He was earning $250k walking in the door. But he slept under his desk pulling 100 hour work weeks and was always terrified of being let go for underperforming.

That’s not a better salary. That’s just 2.5 jobs earning $80k (which you can easily get with a JD pretty much anywhere).

Once he realized that, he quit and landed a job with normal hours earning twice as much per hour worked.

aidan ,

Twice the salary for twice the work load isn’t more money.

Having worked in American and European software development, definitely not twice the workload. Its basically the same, and when I worked in manufacturing it was far higher of a workload than in the US.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

A lot of private professional trades in the US get all of these. They’re “economically viable” for a certain class of (supposedly very productive and important) staff but completely untenable for another larger, lower class of (supposedly lazy and easily replaceable) staff.

Even within the same firm.

If you work in McDs Corporate or occupy a management position at The Dollar Tree, somehow there’s money for leave that doesn’t exist for everyone else.

You might also notice a certain gender, religion, and race component to this, but I would try very hard not to think hard about it either.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

my job has “paid sick time” but you cant use it if youre out of PTO and if you have PTO it takes off your PTO. how dumb is that. my coworker lost all his PTO by getting super sick for 2 weeks at the start of the year

Evrala , (edited )

Speedway and parent conpany 7 Eleven just did this this year everywhere it isn’t illegal. Made it so you only have PTO time and sick time takes it out of your pto. Thankfully that’s illegal in Michigan for hourly employees.

Which also has the fun situation of if you get promoted to general manager you lose your sick time because of going to salary vs hourly.

dejected_warp_core ,

What a strange policy. So that just reduces sick leave to, what, an “unscheduled vacation”?

What’s weirder is that this eliminates some incentive to schedule a vacation in advance, provided you can lie about being sick.

bitchkat ,

Sounds to me like you don’t get any sick time.

uis ,

Is it also at double rate, or you don’t even have 28 days of vacation?

Wytch ,

We got a whole generation full of lead paint chips to thank for this

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