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febra ,

The political class trying to protect the interests of the billionaire class. You grow up under this capitalist system and all you hear is “competition is driving innovation” but the moment true competition comes knocking on your door, you lock yourself into a room.

JasSmith ,

This reads like a fluff piece. BYD doesn’t even rank in poplar brands and models in Europe.

lustyargonian ,

What is Europe if not Europeans?

luciferofastora ,

Government trying to steer a herd of impulsive and selfish citizens into doing what makes sense for the collective (or what they believe makes sense (or what they’re trying to convince us they believe makes sense))

Username , (edited )

deeper nested brackets Or what the car lobby tells them they should try to convince they believe makes sense

luciferofastora ,

To be fair, stuff like the GDPR is probably not in the lobby’s best interests, so they do bring good regulation too

Aceticon ,

Not a single head of any of the car makers who participated in the rigging of diesel car emissions testing went to jail.

Diesel car emssions are thought to kill around 10000 people per year in Europe (not all of which the excess emissions resulting from the rigging, but part of it).

Not even human lives are more important than the wishes of the car lobby for european politicians.

AceFuzzLord ,

If there’s money to be made, large companies regardless of nationality will gladly slaughter the mass for a profit increase.

Aceticon ,

The really shocking bit, however, is how our supposed representatives will help them out.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

(((Triple brackets in internet speak means the thing is Jewish or a dogwhistle you lemon)))

Username ,

Wow, what the actual fuck, why do nazis need to ruin everything?

DragonTypeWyvern ,

I think ruining things is just their whole identity, but tbh, of all the things they’ve ruined, triple brackets is pretty low on the list.

RIP to all your apparent Internet communications that people have taken as weirdly out of place anti-semitism though

MonkderZweite ,

Maybe that’s because VW & co. are similiar to a Käfer under the hood.

elouboub ,
@elouboub@kbin.social avatar

Lol, a car industry that hasn't innovated in years is suddenly threatened by innovation. Still, fuck cars. We should make them nigh obsolete with better public transport.

Moneo ,

All my homies hate cars.

vivavideri ,

I love cars. Fixing them is a pain in the ass but a fun challenge. Driving them can be fun, too. But, I think I’d love some kickass, efficient, abundant, affordable public transportation even more.

God. We could have had it by now. It’d be so rad. But no.

the_third ,

That’s a bit of a nuanced take. This is Lemmy, please choose one side and stick to it, no matter what.

Moneo ,

Cars are fascinating from an engineering perspective, can be a neat hobby, and are useful in many scenarios. None of this makes me feel any better when I’m walking home from the bus stop, choking on exhaust and feeling unsafe as I quadruple check both ways before stepping on to the street.

Cars can be cool, but they are mostly fucking awful in pretty much every way imaginable.

Also my original comment was obviously a joke and not an attempt at a serious discussion about the pros and cars of cars.

David_Eight ,

What innovation are they threatened by?

Sarcastik ,

Chinese affordable EVs with an infotainment system that represents tech from the last 5 years.

David_Eight ,

That’s not innovation though? That’s just making the same thing but cheaply.

elouboub ,
@elouboub@kbin.social avatar

Car batteries you can swap by hand in a few minutes without going to the shop, reverse charging (a car battery can power your home for a while), face scanning tech to ensure you aren't distracted by your phone, capacitive door handles, resistive car doors that limit how far you can open them if there's an obstacle in order no to scratch the doors, intercar communication, and that's what I picked up from watching a video for a few minutes.

BYD added a few thousand patents since 2011 and that's just one of the car companies. They have played around with designs, materials, and much more. IINM they are also working on solid state batteries.

And of course modernising the supply chains and making it possible even produce a car cheaply, quickly, and better quality than a Tesla. If that isn't innovation for you, then I don't know what is.

David_Eight ,

Those are all things that I’ve seen on Western made cars, are you claiming that they where invented by Chinese car manufacturer? Like swappable ev batteries had been around since 2000, the reason most manufacturers don’t offer this feature is because they weigh 1000+ lbs. You’re not swapping that by hand in a couple of minutes. Can you please leave the link to the video you watched?

Where did BYD file these patients, in China? Are these patients that came from BYDs partnership with Mercedes that started in 2010?

How did they modernise the supply chain exactly? Is the lower price not just a reflection of cheaper labor and worse quality cars. What review said the quality is better than Tesla? Also idk if you’re aware but Tesla has the worst quality of any Western car manufacturer, literally dead last, so that claim isn’t even very impressive lol.

bioemerl ,

State literally calls itself communist. (Operates more like a fascist state than a communist one)

Conducts ever more of its industry through the state and strictly controls the banks and loans.

Exercises huge subsidies across the entire economy which is visible through their massive and growing imbalance between their internal consumption and export.

"You only say it's not capitalist because they aren't white"

No I say they aren't capitalist because they aren't capitalist.

Peaty ,

China is closer to neo-mercantilism due to the level if direct state involvement in private business.

bioemerl ,

And what do you call an authoritarian ethnic state that has co opted capital to ensure and spread state control over public and private life?

Peaty ,

Authoritarian, which you already mentioned.

ChrisLicht ,

As a nationalist economic policy, neo-mercantilism integrates well with the fascist economic model, particularly in this age when the masses are so accustomed to foreign goods that they might find the explicit notion of autarky alienating.

Peaty ,

Yes but ideologically China is not aligned with fascism at all. They are on paper still pretending to be Marxists. Fascism is opposed to Marxism.

febra ,

And why should I, a European consumer, care if China has a communist economy or not?

Same shit to me. You live your entire life under capitalism being lied to about how “competition drives innovation” and suddenly when competition knocks on your door, you lock yourself in.

bioemerl ,

Because China achieves it's goals though large scale industrial subsidy and directly suppresses global wages as a result result, impacting your paycheck.

febra ,

I’m sorry, but why aren’t we doing anything about all the subsidies and forgiveable loans (including the ones these companies are using as tax deductible to pay 0 euros taxes while banking billions) my government is handing out to banks, property management companies, car manufacturers, petroleum product producers then?

windowsphoneguy ,

By pricing their models competitively, right?

…right?

Tetsuo ,

Exactly.

Europeans like Chinese electric vehicles because they are affordable.

Meanwhile European manufacturers are probably pushing behind the scene to restrict the Asian competitors on the market so they can decide what price is right.

In the next months in France they will reduce the subsidies for Electric Vehicle with a poor CO2 bill like imported Chinese cars.

So even less people will get to afford EVs.

I don’t think this is just about cheap Chinese labor importing cheap Chinese cars to Europe. It’s also about Europe ignoring the importance of battery tech and manufacturing for decades and suddenly acting all surprised that we are not competitive.

JewGoblin ,

this is why big business love’s regulations

Hoomod ,

How VW, one of/the largest car manufacturers in the world, turns out the overpriced shit EVs it does, yeah… No wonder people are looking elsewhere

Covid also really did a number on the car market (like so many others), probably take another 2-4 years before the used market gets anywhere back to normal.

tankplanker ,

VWs recent EVs were shit as well. Paywall locking the biggest battery behind the most expensive high performance model when people who are looking to adopt are chasing the max range as possible due to range anxiety. A shit infotainment system that controls everything but regularly crashes or lags out. Crap charging rates, crap regen and efficiency. Killing off their more popular entry level trim that was actually priced competitively to drive up margins.

Its just another example of a market dominator trying to abuse their position in a new space and coming unstuck. They had to cut back on shifts and staff at their EV plants they fucked up that hard.

Darkhoof ,
@Darkhoof@lemmy.world avatar

Stellantis just released the e-C3. It is priced competitively.

Obi ,
@Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

I thought this was a new brand of cars I never heard of but no, you used the name of the corporate group instead of Citroen, confusing! Looks nice though, modern Citroen are really nice.

Darkhoof ,
@Darkhoof@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, sorry. I used to follow FCA news a lot and I’m used to use the Corp name instead of the brand.

DogMuffins ,

Is it racist to say I’d never buy a Chinese car just on principle?

isles ,

It could be, you’d have to define the principle.

DogMuffins ,

I’m prejudiced against Chinese manufacturing - it’s all shit.

Hyperreality ,

It isn't. You get what you pay for.

BassTurd ,

If it’s because you hate Asians, then yes. If it’s because you believe China makes bad products or because of their unethical practices, then no.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

It could be all three since racists tend to think China makes bad products and have unethical practices because they are Chinese due to conflating race and culture.

DogMuffins ,

I am kinda Asian LOL.

It’s just that most non-electronic Chinese manufactured stuff is just terrible build quality.

Peaty ,

Only if it had something to do with race. If it’s because you don’t think their manufacturing standards are high enough to feel safe that wouldn’t be racist per se.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

Depends if it is based on culture/race or the country's economic and other policies.

Gsus4 , (edited )
@Gsus4@mander.xyz avatar

Electric cars are so much simpler than ICEs…they’re almost “phones with wheels”…so IF you happen to “trust” “buy” their phones, it’s not a huge jump to cars…but it’s a jump 😅 , just not on principle.

DrDr ,

I get your point but choosing Chinese phones as a trust example is hilarious. Every Chinese phone has a backdoor straight to China.

Gsus4 ,
@Gsus4@mander.xyz avatar

I know, maybe trust was not the right expression. The issue is that we still buy them, even if we know they’re pumped full of spyware from a country that is not an ally.

troyunrau ,
@troyunrau@lemmy.ca avatar

Your Apple or Android have a high probability of having all or part made in China.

JasSmith ,

No. Chinese cars have been a thing in New Zealand for decades now and they are HORRIFIC. They import the good version for safety testing then promptly switch out the steel for cheaper “Chinesium,” and airbags for cheaper versions. No one should ever buy one until long term reliability studies are conducted. I will eat my hat if they’re anything other than terrible.

DogMuffins ,

Yeah the “great wall” Ute’s et cetera have a terrible reputation here. They’re bottom tier fleet vehicles.

Campers & trailers are the same. Too thin to be repaired.

qooqie ,

I’m not entirely sure why they want to fight low prices? The article doesn’t say why EU and others shouldn’t be able to afford e-vehicles

lorez ,

They undercut the sales of European vehicles which cost more.

jackoneill ,

Oh no, capitalism hurts itself in its confusion

Wogi ,

“Capitalism breeds innovation and drivers prices down!”

Capitalism: no not like that

bioemerl ,

Unsustainable Chinese state subsidy is not capitalism.

Vilian ,

yes, it is, USA also do that, and others countries with fossil fuel

bioemerl ,

Yes, and the EU largely responds in the sectors of US subsidy. Food imports are restricted. Airbus and Boeing are constant sources of trade spats, etc.

Chinese subsidy makes American subsidy look like childs play. Their response to China should match that discrepancy.

Peaty ,

They are talking about car subsidies which China does and not all countries do in all markets.

chaogomu ,

Every country does some level of industry subsidy. So it's kind of baked into capitalism now. And, technically, has been since the beginning.

IHeartBadCode ,
@IHeartBadCode@kbin.social avatar

Unsustainable state subsidies are not capitalism. Remember it’s not just the Chinese that do this kind of stuff.

barsoap ,

Of course they are, subsidies are one of capital’s favourite methods to siphon money out of the populace. Or were you under the impression that greedy people like playing fair on fair markets?

Wogi ,

It’s literally socialism but for the rich.

elouboub ,
@elouboub@kbin.social avatar

US government shoving millions up the asses of the their industries: capitalism

China shoving millions into their industries: communism

Yours faithfully, the brainwashed USAian

Pringles ,

It’s not that simple. Caricatures are easy, but the fact remains that the Chinese auto makers are heavily subsidized and it’s that government support that allows them (partially at least) to undercut the European auto makers.

That being said, the European auto makers really deserve to be hurt for their arrogance. And that’s coming from someone whose income is directly related to how well they do.

yiliu ,

If the EU bans Chinese cars, that’s not capitalism in action.

xhci ,

Do these vehicles comply with safety regulations?

KairuByte ,
@KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Would they not have to be, if the owner were to register them in the country?

bluGill ,

In the US they would, unless they get an exception (which generally means they are not cars and cannot be used on roads, though there are other ways to get an exception: none would apply to anything mass market)

I don't know what EU rules are.

xhci ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    bluGill ,

    Golf carts, ATVs, UTVs commonly are allowed on roads under various local rules despite not meeting safety rules for road vehicles.

    zout ,

    Eu rules are the same.

    elouboub ,
    @elouboub@kbin.social avatar

    EU rules are even stricter than those across the pond. There are entire classes of products banned from the European market due to impact on health that the USA will happily poison their population with.

    https://thewellnesswatchdog.com/foods-banned-in-europe/

    https://www.byrdie.com/banned-ingredients-europe

    atzanteol ,

    The EU follows a “precautionary principle” rather than the US “risk benefit” approach.

    This leads to the EU often banning things which pose little it no risk (e.g. GMO foods).

    Their approach is not necessarily better and the things they ban are not necessarily “toxic”.

    xhci ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    KairuByte ,
    @KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I think generally, if the car is a make and model that has previously passed inspections, they don’t need to be re-inspected? For instance, you don’t generally run into a situation where your ford focus is inspected, because that make and model is already “well known” so to speak.

    Ragerist ,
    @Ragerist@lemmy.world avatar

    Haha, no.

    youtu.be/yOA7qKMcjcE?si=fPBIjjyhhHkKUpQQ

    BastingChemina ,

    The Chinese cars by Chinese manufacturer are generally getting excellent safety rating. Most of them get 5 stars on NCAP crash test.

    On the other hand the Renault Zoe, one of the best selling European car by a european manufacturer got a 0 star on the same crash test. It’s not an isolated case, the e-c3 got a 0 star on the latin american test, I’m waiting to see what will be the score in Europe.

    I’m not saying that Chinese car are better but the bad reputation is not justified anymore. Europeans automakers should get their shit together if they want to survive.

    DogMuffins ,

    What article? That’s an ad.

    bioemerl ,

    low prices

    They're fighting Chinese market manipulation that is specifically designed to make the world dependent on them and lowers wages across the world by creating massive market imbalances. Every nation with two brain cells should ban the import of all Chinese vehicles and eventually all Chinese industry entirely.

    zout ,

    As long as safety and environmental regulations in China are lower than in Europe, it will always be cheaper to produce there.

    paintbucketholder ,

    Chinese electric car makers get absolutely massive state subsidies. There are companies like Nio that have never made a single dollar of profit. Nio has been losing money on every single car they sell, to the point where they’ve been losing almost a billion dollars in the last quarter alone.

    However, China doesn’t care. The state keeps financing these companies, because if they can undermine European and American auto makers to the point where they’re simply unable to compete and maybe even completely collapse, then Chinese car makers will be the only ones left in the market, and they’ll be able to charge any price they want.

    And realistically, which American or European car maker will be able to compete with a multitude of Chinese competitors that all can afford to lose billions and billions every year without batting an eye?

    So that’s why they want to fight “low prices.”

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    They have an electric suv under $20k usd

    Sure, it’s probably gonna last like a mid-90’s Kia, but for the price it’s pretty nice.

    agitatedpotato ,

    At the rate of industrial investment into this tech coupled with some places punishing gas cars, a cheap car that spans the gap from now until affoedable and better EVs is the perfect prescription, not to mention we havent stopepd having some form or financial crises since covid.

    CmdrShepard ,

    I think it’s debatable. Is it really good if all the energy that went into making the vehicle goes to waste because it only lasts 50k miles? At that point you’re basically building disposable vehicles.

    I think the sweet spot for this period is in hybrids that allow people to run on electricity around town but also have the ICE as a fallback for long/extended trips. The main hesitancy with EVs is range anxiety (ignoring high prices) and hybrids solve that issue while still retaining a lot of the benefits of an EV.

    Addv4 ,

    The problem with that is that phevs are surprising expensive/heavy/complicated. It's why Chevy discontinued the volt over the bolt. And why chevy had to cut a lot of costs on the volt to get it down to a semi-acceptable price (the volt didn't even have power seats except on the Premier, and only on the drivers side).

    Satelllliiiiiiiteeee ,
    @Satelllliiiiiiiteeee@kbin.social avatar

    Honestly, I prefer not to have power seats. It's faster to adjust manual seats in my experience and there's both fewer things to break and less weight.

    Blastasaurus ,

    Agreed. Although having seat settings linked to individual fobs is nice. If you share a vehicle you don’t have to mess around with all the settings every time. Moot point though.

    Ilovethebomb ,

    I’ve found I can never get a manual seat just right myself, they’re either slightly too far forward, or slightly too far back.

    Electric let’s you get it just right

    Knocturnal ,

    Does that midpoint between 2 steps really make such a difference? 🧐

    Ilovethebomb ,

    Yes, yes it does.

    bluGill ,

    A large port of cars are recycled, so I'm not sure the energy costs are a big deal.

    GiveMemes ,

    A huge amount of the overall CO2 output of EVs is from the manufacturing process though. It doesn’t matter if you can recycle the aluminum, for example, bc you still need to heat it to be recast and we’re not exactly using nuclear or solar to power our forges.

    bluGill ,

    Mining is responsible for more CO2 than the rest of manufacturing. We also do use renewables for aluminum - there is enough energy required that energy cost is a big deal and so production is done in areas where energy is cheap - generally meaning geothermo.

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    If I was in the market for a new car, I’d strongly consider them because of the cost even knowing the quality may be low. It’s still an EV and would hold its value for now. It’s a good alternative to the slim-pickings we have here in the states

    Astroturfed ,

    The solid state batteries that seem to be clearly on the verge of mass production within the next few years are going to make everything they’re making now horribly obsolete. I’ve been considering a EV for my next vehicle and will definitely be waiting now.

    agitatedpotato ,

    While researching Chinese EVs I came across articles about abandoned EVs, the article claimed it was because they were made obsolete (they have roughly 100 mile range or less) so they were abandoned for the newer cheaper models with 3-5x that range, that problem is probably gong to be a bigger one to tackle than Chinese EV longevity, which supposedly aims for roughly 200,000km lifecycle which is 125k miles (average ice car has a lifespan of 130k miles). It also showed me how close to production those batteries you are talking about are, there’s a bold claim that the battery could be good for 2 million kilometers, if it’s even on the same order of magnitude of that, it would make so many EVs ‘obsolete’.

    JohnDClay ,

    People have been saying that for years. They could well still be 10 years out since we’ve only recently gotten them working on test benches. I’m not going to keep burning gas in the meantime.

    Ilovethebomb ,

    I’ve seen so much EV vapourware come and go over the years, I’m extremely sceptical about any new technology like this.

    I do sincerely hope it comes through though, range and charging speed are very much the limiting factors for EV tech right now.

    the_third ,

    I’ve been considering a EV for my next vehicle and will definitely be waiting now.

    Looking at how most of the news about that are coming from Toyota at the moment and Toyota happens to have a horrible line up of EVs but a very profitable lineup of ICE cars I’m sceptical. I think they are just trying to get people to buy another round of oil burners.

    I’ve got two compact electric cars since 2020, while everyone’s waiting for the next big thing I’ve already been driving around mainly using electricity from my roof 🤷

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