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patchwork ,

I think the automotive analogy is relevant, some think using technology means they understand it. I’m a pretty good driver, but it would be unwise to ask me to repair your car’s transmission. My grandmother spends more time on her computer glued to Facebook than I spend using my computer on a given day, but I’m not asking her to build my next gaming rig.

the_of_and_a_to ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Daqu ,

    Mehta is the name of the judge.

    TrivialBetaState ,

    I think the case is crystal clear even to someone who has no technical knowledge. The question is whether the judge will be swayed by the lobbying power of the Big Tech

    possiblylinux127 ,

    The reason google is so good is that it has had a monopoly for so long it has all the data.

    ShaggySnacks ,

    When you have technical cases like this, a good expert witness can explain everything like the judge is five. I like to consider myself tech literate enough to know the basics.

    This is about how Google used technology (algorithms) and it’s buying power to cement it’s monopoly.

    From the DoJ’s pre-trial brief.

    First, Google designed its ad auction algorithms to include adjustable variables (internally known as “pricing knobs”);…Google has also reduced advertisers’ visibility into where and why Google displays ads, impeding advertisers’ ability to optimize advertising and lower costs…Google knows that a search engine “get[s] better as you have more users” because its quality improves on metrics such as personalization, refinements, and the ability to decipher what the user is searching for “Large-scale machine learning[,]”

    Start throwing in technical jargon about how the ad algorithm works, and even the most technical lay person is going to shrug their shoulders and go “I dunno, sounds like magic”.

    Other expert witnesses will still have to explain how Google fits a monopoly under an economic system, again too many technical jargon and people will shrug their shoulders and go “I dunno, sounds like voodoo.”

    MarkG_108 ,

    When asked about a perceived ignorance in computers, the judge proclaimed, “I’m not ignorant about computers! In fact, just last week I finished Space Quest, and I’m now getting through Leisure Suit Larry!” The judge’s report, written using WordPerfect 5.1, is expected to be released soon.

    SpikesOtherDog ,

    I’ll have you know that I just recently had a user incredibly upset because their word perfect files did not automatically identify as word documents.

    hesusingthespiritbomb ,

    So we have two options:

    1. A 52 year old federal judge is somehow tech illiterate in a way that would imply they have absolutely no idea about the fundamentals of modern technology.
    2. A federal judge is asking a large number of extremely basic questions to get their answers on official records so that the cases parameters are clearly defined. He is taking extra care because there’s not a lot of direct precedent on these issues.

    I’m heavily leaning towards number 2 here. The internet likes to pretend everyone over the age of 40 has no idea how a computer works. The year is 2023. A middle-aged person today was fairly young when computers started to be incorporated into all aspects of society and is well versed in computer literacy. In some ways they are actually much more tech literate than the younger generations. It’s almost certain that he knows the difference between Firefox and Google.

    bufordt ,
    @bufordt@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I’m a 53 year old IT person, and I’m leaning towards 1. The level of technology incompetence in the general public is astounding. My wife only knows “Have you tried turning it off and back on again?” And that pretty much makes her a member of the help desk at her job.

    ChaoticNeutralCzech ,

    My mom uses a computer at her job but confuses the terms computer, internet, browser and email on a regular basis. I wonder what would happen if I restarted the internet as she tells me to sometimes. I could install Linux and she wouldn’t tell.

    Still better than her father, who had her operate a casette player for him when she was 2.

    Blackmist ,

    I always cringe in horror as both my parents still double click links on the internet.

    ChaoticNeutralCzech ,

    Mine are not that old but they absolutely need access to assistance every day. Mom cannot turn the computer off if anything other than “Shutdown” was previously chosen in that awful Windows dialog. Dad fell for a basic “unclaimed delivery” phishing email even though he found it in the Spam folder that has an explicit warning. Fortunately, his gut told him something was fishy and he told me right away, and we suspended his card before it was abused.

    vacuumflower ,

    What’s wrong with double click?

    Bread ,

    I think it is the idea of clicking some random link on the internet and not the act of double clicking itself. It caught me for a second too.

    Blackmist ,

    On a link? Everything.

    vacuumflower ,

    I still don’t understand. IIRC, it’s click once to select, click twice to open. Why should hyperlinks be different?

    Or maybe you mean machine gun clicking until the page loads, that’s, eh, wrong, yes.

    Blackmist ,

    Links only need single clicks. Always have.

    Icons on the desktop, or files in a listview need a double click to open, because single clicking just selects them.

    uis ,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    Icons on the desktop, or files in a listview need a double click to open

    Unless you are using something with modern UI, in that case even folders are single click to open.

    richieadler ,

    Boy, do I understand the cringe.

    I always described these users as “unable to distinguish between an icon an a button”. Modern Windows UIs don’t make it easier, though.

    uis ,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    I could install Linux and she wouldn’t tell.

    Works with grandparents. They don’t even suspect they have Gentoo on their computer.

    Dozzi92 ,
    @Dozzi92@lemmy.world avatar

    The law is nuanced out the ass. I sit through depositions every day, and terms of art are a plague, and you can say something, but it can be interpreted differently because in such and such a field it’s a term of art, etc. That’s my hope.

    I am fully on board with we need more judges, we need younger judges. But I don’t think that’s because they’re incapable of learning. In fact, I think there’s be value to someone going in blind, being given all the facts, and making their determination that way. It just sucks that something we value so highly can be determined based on the presentation of counsel.

    tony ,

    It’s always amazed me of the learning gap… we learned how to get stuff working by hacking config.sys and our peers can it seems barely spell computer.

    It’s even worse as people get younger, even though it shouldn’t be. How computers work should be in peoples DNA by now, but they still think you’ve deleted IE if you hide the icon…

    uis ,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    My wife only knows “Have you tried turning it off and back on again?” And that pretty much makes her a member of the help desk at her job.

    Next step: “Is it even powered?”

    To be Dennis Ritchie was born in 40-ies. He would be 80 y.o. if he didn’t die in 2013. And he is most literate person on this planet.

    richieadler ,

    Agreed. If it has a positive effect as in 2, I’m all for it, but trusting that a non-technical user really know what’s going on with his computer is a serious gamble.

    ipkpjersi ,

    I work as a website developer and I think number one is so, so much more likely. The average person barely knows how to use a computer at all, let alone how it works and different terminology.

    An older, non-IT person - an actual judge, yeah I’m not giving them the benefit of the doubt here - they likely don’t know lol

    mulcahey ,

    Not sure why “old+judge” automatically equals “tech illiterate.” The judge in another high-profile Google case taught himself to code

    ipkpjersi ,

    It’s because these things work by probabilities. Generally when you think of older people who aren’t working as IT professionals, you wouldn’t expect them to be great with computers - and you’d probably be right.

    Do you really think that a judge that taught himself to code would be common-place and would be the norm? That judge is awesome, but he is very clearly an outlier lol

    TheEgoBot ,

    I think the probability of somebody who had to pass a Barr and likely worked as a lawyer in 2005 knowing the difference between Google and firefox is pretty damn high tbh

    ipkpjersi ,

    I really don’t mean to be rude however I don’t think there’s any polite sounding way of asking this, have you worked in IT? You would be surprised how many lawyers, doctors, etc all kinds of genius professionals absolutely do not know how computers work, and even who don’t care to learn them.

    TheEgoBot ,

    You’re good, but no I haven’t worked in IT, I’ve job hopped in manufacturing most of my life I just went to high school in the early 2000s and in my experience those particular things were ubiquitous enough to be common knowledge. I fully understand that there’s people out there who have no idea how to operate a computer, it also makes sense to me why an IT person would see the most numerous and most extreme examples of this, but I think precisely because of that you have a bias in the other direction because everybody who has to come to you is likely an idiot, that doesn’t mean everybody who isn’t an IT professional is also an idiot.

    ipkpjersi ,

    I agree, that’s a decent point, but I have a counterpoint. I think with sheer numbers alone, especially when it comes to the context of computers would give more accurate results even if they could be somewhat biased. A larger sample size is more likely to give a more accurate idea of a picture of what’s going on. I also think if you compare an IT person, versus a non-IT person, the IT person is going to be able to identify Firefox being a search engine or a browser 10 times out of 10 lol, whereas with a non-IT person, those numbers could be anywhere except for 10/10, most likely anyway. lol

    tony ,

    Knowledge of one field doesn’t imply knowledge or even common sense in another.

    If you’re ever back on reddit, check out ‘tales from tech support’.

    EnglishMobster ,

    The article you link says the judge already knew how to code beforehand.

    He’s been coding in BASIC for decades, actually, writing programs for the fun of it: a program to play Bridge, written as a gift for his wife; an automatic solution for the board game Mastermind, which he is immensely fond of; and most ambitiously, a sprawling multifunctional program with a graphical interface that helps him with yet another of his many hobbies, ham radio.

    mulcahey ,

    Yes, because he taught himself.

    “At some point, I looked at the BASIC book and decided I would learn that.” He taught himself straight from the book, which he recalls was “pretty straightforward.”

    krolden ,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    Knowing how to code doesn’t mean you know the difference between a search engine and a web browser.

    HawlSera ,

    Honestly same. The passage of time is weird

    People think 52 is like super old… but really that’s just Gen X

    Hell you really wanna know how warped our perception of time is?

    Most people think 20 years ago Mario was an 8bit platformer that revitalized interest in video games after Atari killed the medium with oversaturation and nonexistent quality control.

    What was Mario 20 years ago? An aging mascot with a divisive summer themed pollution game that I loved but others seemed to hate, on a console that only did well with diehard fans… 20 years ago Nintendo wasn’t the big man on campus, that was Sony with the PS2 despite it being weaker than GCN and Xbox.

    Classy ,

    Dude SMS was such a great game, big part of my childhood. I loved Luigi’s Mansion, too.

    HawlSera ,

    I was very disappointed with Luigi’s Mansion sequels. I like that the original Luigi’s Mansion was able to have a genuinely haunting atmosphere, that still managed to feel in place with the Mario universe. I was disappointed that portrait ghosts never really made a return, and that our ghosts were downgraded from actually scary premises like a baby that can warp dimensions to generic cartoon antics. Like this really was baby’s first horror game. A Fatal Frame for the kiddos, or is it more accurate to say that Fatal Frame is Luigi’s Mansion for the non kiddos? I think Fatal Frame came after Luigi’s Mansion

    Luigi’s Mansion 3 is especially bad with this because although I do like the main villain a lot, most of the ghosts you see are just the standard blue one again and again, you don’t have the rich variety that even Dark Moon pulled off. And oh boy did I love the ghosts of shy guys in the first game.

    Deftdrummer ,

    Kinda lost me with Mario

    flambonkscious ,

    I agree, none of that comparison made sense. It relies too much on prior knowledge/association.

    HawlSera ,

    Lemme break it down then…

    Most people, if asked what a Mario game, one of the most iconic and best selling franchises in gaming history… beaten out only by Pokemon (owned by the same company) was like 20 years ago, they’d describe this - youtu.be/7qirrV8w5SQ

    When in reality, Mario 20 years ago, was this - youtu.be/WIHFSgPv3Ak

    This is due to how bad of a perception of time we as humans seem to have… It works for other things

    20 years ago “Ah yeah that’s when we were using floppy disks right?”

    Heck my brother’s a pretty sharp guy, but at one point he seemed to think my dad’s generation grew up with black and white silent films, and not… Friday the 13th or Ghostbusters

    Crass_Spektakel ,
    @Crass_Spektakel@lemmy.world avatar

    Well, in the 1970/1980 there actually were still a lot of black and white movies on TV. “The Streets of San Francisco” “Kojak” “Dragnet” not to mention the endless reruns of Stan and Laurel.

    HawlSera ,

    Well you got me there, plus when my dad does like to watch Mash, it says go to when he I just want some noise. Which I can understand, I usually have a let’s play of some game going. My grandmother has a recording of rain, I have a recording of the Blair Witch volume 1 Ruston Park going. And know that he’s not what the character is called, speech to text is being a bastard and I can’t use my hands right now

    richieadler ,

    For reruns in Argentina, nothing beats Disney’s Zorro. It’s a full-on revered classic here.

    Crass_Spektakel ,
    @Crass_Spektakel@lemmy.world avatar

    For reruns in Argentina, nothing beats Disney’s Zorro. It’s a full-on revered classic here.

    Wow, I remember that one too from my child hood. The German TV played it once, the Austrian TV played it like over and over again. Don’t ask me why but the Austrian TV was always miles better than the German TV. Living close to the border allowed us to watch both, sometimes even the Swiss TV which was usually attrocious.

    flambonkscious ,

    Wow, I’d never come across super Mario sunshine before - cheers!

    SeaJ ,

    Currently playing through Super Mario Sunshine. Looks pretty decent with HD textures.

    patchwork ,

    In the 1990s if you wanted to play a PC game you had install it manually with a CD, typically configure ini files in a text editor and fix irq requests for your peripherals just to play. In the contemporary world a zoomer only needs to tap the install icon on the screen, Gen Z may have more experience usually technology than any previous generation, but the days of asking grandma to fix your computer seem a certainty on the horizon.

    nudnyekscentryk ,
    @nudnyekscentryk@szmer.info avatar

    Yep, the digital illiteracy of the z gen is terrifying. Apparently contemporary teens have no understanding of the folder structure. Like, at all. Of the concept of files having their location. It’s all because they were brought up with iPhones for everything just is, and iCloud where everything just is.

    uis ,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    Maybe they imagine tag-based filesystem or content-addressed? Like porn sites.

    nudnyekscentryk ,
    @nudnyekscentryk@szmer.info avatar

    apparently they imagine a huge dump of stuffs which just exists

    richieadler ,

    Apparently contemporary teens have no understanding of the folder structure. Like, at all.

    I met numerous 20- and 30- somethings in the 90s who had no idea either. When asked why they didn’t know where did they save the documents they “lost”, they usually answered that they hadn’t studied Computer Sciences and therefore they didn’t have any reason to know (!).

    Appelations to learn to use better their tools usually got nowhere.

    Venat0r ,

    It’s a bit like how cars used to be really unreliable but easy to work on so a lot of people learned to fix some basic things, but now it’s more complicated and difficult to fix anything so even a lot of handy people don’t bother.

    uis ,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    To be fair a lot of things are as easy or easier, but vendor will never let you use diagnostic software

    patchwork ,

    It’s easier to build a PC in 2023 than it was in 1993. Modern motherboard’s typically don’t require separate cards for sound, network and video (unless you’re gaming). It’s mostly integrated now and you don’t need hours manually manipulating jumpers and trying to affix terribly designed IDE cables now replaced with SATA. I’d much rather work on repairing my modern PC vs trying to troubleshoot a Compaq 486 20+ years ago.

    n00b001 ,

    Ide? Sata? M.2 baybeeee

    jaaval ,

    I have soon a PhD in computer tech related subject, program for living, and am a lot younger than the judge, and if you ask me if Mozilla makes a search engine I would say I have no idea, they’ve made a lot of stuff. And if you asked me how Google’s SEM tools work I would ask wtf is SEM.

    aCatNamedVirtute , (edited )

    The people making decisions often don’t know shit about what they’re deciding. I used to wonder why huge companies with a shitload of cash make horrible decisions for their products. Hint: It’s not because they hire bad engineers.

    Francis_Fujiwara ,

    I don’t care, i use Duck.

    Damage ,

    This guy ducks

    HRDS_654 ,

    But does he go?

    GratefullyGodless ,
    @GratefullyGodless@lemmy.world avatar

    So, you’re saying people should go get Ducked?

    Francis_Fujiwara ,

    I mean, i use Duckduckgo dude lmao

    CosmicCleric ,
    @CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

    So I got to wonder, when that judge goes home at night, does his family, and especially his kids, let him know what everyone is saying about him in relation to this article?

    And then I wonder how that affects him going into court the next day, when he has to ask more ‘dumb’ questions, does he actually ask or not.

    bezerker03 ,

    His family and friends are likely a bubble and thus never see the article to begin with.

    CosmicCleric ,
    @CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

    Kids are never in the bubble, you know that. Even when they’re supposed to be in a bubble, they’re not in a bubble.

    masterofn001 ,

    Don Jr would like to have a word with you after he finishes these few ounces of blow.

    I guess it depends how rich or how mafia/Russian your connections are.

    gamer ,

    His job is to ask those questions. If he doesn’t do it, his reasoning will be flawed and then the case will restart with a new judge when appealed, wasting everyone’s time and money. I gotta imagine that’s more embarrassing to a judge than asking these questions.

    burningmatches ,

    Tech just isn’t his expertise.

    Mehta has been described as an avid fan of hip hop music. In a 2015 copyright case regarding the similarity of two songs, Mehta noted in a footnote that he was "not a ‘lay person’ when it comes to hip-hop music and lyrics,” and noted he has “listened to hip hop for decades”. American rappers Jay-Z, Eminem, Kanye West and Canadian rapper Drake are among his favorite artists.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amit_Mehta

    gnuslashdhruv ,

    Amazing underrated comment right here.

    uriel238 ,
    @uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Google trial didn’t know if Firefox is a browser or search engine::Google accused DOJ of aiming to force people to use “inferior” search products.

    Google search is an inferior search product.

    HawlSera ,

    Google, Twitter, and Reddit are proof that your business cannot relay on a middle man without that middle man creating a monopoly that shits itself

    God the nightmare we will get when Gaben passes…

    Mnemnosyne ,

    Valve is directly owned by him with no stockholder nonsense, as I understand it, so perhaps he has willed it to someone who will handle it well. Hopefully. I don’t like everything about Steam, but I do like that, assuming I’m not misinformed.

    HawlSera ,

    What I’m paranoid is that it seems companies have started giving out arbitrary bans as part of a power trip.

    My friend’s an Overwatch Streamer and they shot him with a one-month ban for “Being Toxic”

    His toxic behavior was… “Asking people to stop using racial slurs in voice chat”

    MeaanBeaan ,

    I remember hearing that his son would take the reigns after his death and that his son shares the same values as Gabe. So hopefully we’re fine for the foreseeable future on that front. Assuming I’m remembering that right at least.

    krolden ,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    It is now but it wasn’t always.

    NikkiDimes ,

    I’m not gonna lie, and I hate to admit it, but I actually really like Bing’s ChatGPT integration. For basic searches, it does all the legwork and gets you a summarized answer with sources for more info. It even works great on really obscure topics…

    poopsmith , (edited )
    @poopsmith@lemmy.world avatar

    I feel like most average people (regardless of age) don’t even know alternatives to internet browsers exist, so why would I expect a judge to know? They’re obviously not experts in every field, it’s up to the attorneys to inform them and persuade them one way or another.

    Are people here unable to see that the layman might not know what Firefox is off-hand?

    CosmicCleric ,
    @CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

    Are people here unable to see that the layman might not know what Firefox is off-hand?

    I don’t think it’s that. I think most people want a judge who’s knowledgeable enough on the subject that he/she’s actually judging.

    Bringing in experts to educate him during the court case is not right, he’s supposed to be able to judge if the experts are actually experts and know what they’re talking about, by the time the actual case is happening.

    1984 ,
    @1984@lemmy.today avatar

    I’m not surprised at all. Only people who work in IT are aware or care about anything other then the default apps and operating systems.

    randon31415 ,

    |unable to keep straight if Mozilla was a browser or a search engine

    It is neither. It is a foundation that maintains a browser. It is like asking if Microsoft is a browser or a search engine.

    eruchitanda , (edited )
    @eruchitanda@lemmy.world avatar

    Allow me to introduce ‘I have problem with The Google’.

    E: wording.

    LiaWong ,

    You mean the Google Bing?

    lemann ,

    Let me quickly Google that in Bing Bing Go

    TeaEarlGrayHot ,

    if Microsoft is a browser or a search engine.

    yes

    verstra ,

    No

    possiblylinux127 ,

    Yes! Stop fighting the status quo

    DeadNinja ,
    @DeadNinja@lemmy.world avatar

    So true

    solstice ,

    It’s just one of the pipes in the interweb plumbing system duh. (That’s actually a slightly better metaphor than I was going for come to think of it.)

    jaybone ,

    Maybe the browser is more like a faucet and the search engine is like… the city water utility? Obviously that analogy has flaws too.

    You could say your tv is like a browser and the “guide” is like a search engine. That analogy is a bit better.

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