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cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

just ban guns like every other first world country thats all we ask…

Virkkunen ,
@Virkkunen@fedia.io avatar

But there's no way to prevent this, according to the only nation where this frequently happens.

SirEDCaLot ,

Simplistic logic that sounds nice but doesn’t actually work. There are more guns than people in this country. We have significantly bigger problems with illegal drug cartels than most. Drug gangs, who have access to illicit import capability, commit the lion’s share of gun violence. The right to keep in their arms is literally written into our Constitution.
Put those things together and you have a few very big problems.

The first is that any sort of gun ban will basically fail unless you amend the Constitution, which there is not political will to do by any means. And those who want to keep their gun rights will point out that there are at 4-5x as many defensive gun uses by law abiding gun owners as there are gun homicides. So it is unlikely that you will be able to get any sort of gun ban to happen.

Second, even if you did, you could never get rid of any significant number of them. There is no national registration scheme. A couple of states have their own registration schemes but those are generally not the states with the majority of firearms. Look at other countries that had similar situations like Australia, they have had numerous amnesty periods for people to turn in firearms and they still don’t think they have a significant majority of them collected.

Finally the question is who you are disarming? Remember, the lions share of gun murders are committed by drug gangs. A gang that can import illegal drugs can just as easily import illegal guns. Or, guns are actually not that hard to make, significantly easier than drugs. Any decently equipped machine shop can crank out guns, and unlike a drug lab which has to be out of the country the machine shop has a legitimate day shift use so it can operate in the open and pay taxes.
Point is, you will end up disarming the law abiding citizens while the criminals will still be armed, and willing to sell those guns to other criminals.

I also very much want to end school shootings. I hate that we are turning schools into fortresses or prisons. I hate the teachers, who are already paid shit, have to think things like ‘time to attack a gunman with scissors’.

But I want to spend effort and money on the policy that will most likely bring that goal about. Maximum bang for buck if you will. And I’m sorry but gun control isn’t it.

AbidanYre ,

Gun control works in literally every other developed country in the world.

SirEDCaLot ,

Other countries have less gun crime sure. They also have a functional health care system, including mental health care. They have culture that doesn’t glorify violence and better emphasizes connections with fellow humans and collaboration rather than confrontation.
Behavior like bullying that in the US often elicits a ‘boys will be boys, let them work it out’ reaction would get kids severely disciplined or kicked out of school in most other civilized countries.
Other countries didn’t defund their mental health systems in the 1980s, turning a great many violent and mentally ill people out on the streets. I’m not a big Reagan fan generally but that policy did irreparable harm to the US.
And other countries don’t treat addicts like criminals, locking them up for years with violent criminals where they themselves become violent. Other countries treat addicts like medical patients.

So yeah other countries do a lot of things better than the US, in terms of cultivating a less violent more inclusive society. You can’t just point to gun policy and say THERE THATS THE ANSWER THATS ALL WE NEED.

funkless_eck ,

you say the lions share of murders are committed by drug gangs, but that’s ignoring the majority of gun injuries are self inflicted.

And while it was written into the constitution it was amended into the constitution, and like the 21st which repealed the 18th, could be amended out again.

you also say there are 5x defensive Gun owners. This is a made up statistic - there is no formal definition of a defensive gun owner, there is no way to shoot a gun defensively.

While it may take time - a few generations - maybe even a dozen generations - to disarm the majority of households, it’s possible.

who are you disarming

the majority of gun owners own guns for fun/sport. So while, yes, it is sad to ruin fun, it’s also sad to have children killed.

Finally, you don’t have to ban all guns, you could keep say, bolt action rifles and single barrel shotguns - where sports and hunting could still continue. This wouldn’t solve all the problems but it might have saved lives multiplicatively in mass shootings.

SirEDCaLot ,

you say the lions share of murders are committed by drug gangs, but that’s ignoring the majority of gun injuries are self inflicted.

Quite correct. Somewhere between 2/3 and 4/5 depending on the year of gun deaths are suicides. It’s why I hate most ‘gun violence’ numbers because they include suicides to get to a ~30k/year number (homicides are 10-12k/year most years) while the term ‘gun violence’ strongly suggests crime done to others.

I don’t believe we should blame a gun for suicide anymore than we should blame a knife, body of water, tall bridge/building, bottle of pills, etc. Suicide is a (shitty) personal choice someone makes for themselves. And I reject the idea that all of society should be prohibited from owning a tool simply because a suicidal person might use it to end their own life.
Suicide is a tragedy and I’m all for preventing it. But depriving hundreds of millions of law-abiding citizens from having a tool they use safely, daily, for protection and recreation is not the answer. It’s not how a ‘free’ society works or should work.

And while it was written into the constitution it was amended into the constitution, and like the 21st which repealed the 18th, could be amended out again.

Yes it could be. Any part of the Constitution can be changed. Even the 1st Amendment. Should we rewrite the 1st Amendment to ban pornography or politically unpopular speech? Should we rewrite the 4th Amendment to exclude computers and only apply to printed papers?
Just because we CAN muck with the Bill of Rights doesn’t mean we SHOULD.

you also say there are 5x defensive Gun owners. This is a made up statistic - there is no formal definition of a defensive gun owner, there is no way to shoot a gun defensively.

I said ‘defensive gun USES’. That has a definition- it’s when a law-abiding citizen uses a lawfully-owned firearm to stop or prevent a crime. The vast majority of defensive gun uses (90-95%) end with no shots fired- the criminal sees the gun and runs away.
Sorry for a reddit link but click here - that’s from /r/CCW (concealed carry weapon) and it’s a filter for ‘member DGU’, IE posts where a redditor is involved in a DGU situation. I’d encourage you to read some of them.

The problem with DGUs is they aren’t tracked. Most aren’t reported to the police and those that are aren’t centrally tracked in any database like the FBI’s homicide database. That means coming up with a number is done with statistical analysis of victimization surveys. This of course produces wildly different numbers, which range from 55k-80k/year (anti-gun researcher Hemenway) to ~2 million (pro-gun researcher Lott). Personally I think the number is somewhere around 300-500k (at least that’s what NCVS data suggests) but you can draw your own conclusions. Wikipedia has a great article on DGUs.

For the sake of this argument though I go with a low number of 60k-- 12k homicides, 60k DGUs, that’s about 5x.

While it may take time - a few generations - maybe even a dozen generations - to disarm the majority of households, it’s possible.

Let’s say you do that. Let’s say you repeal the 2nd Amendment, and do ‘buybacks’ (or as gun owners call it, ‘confiscation with compensation’), and you keep this up for 20+ years. What have you actually accomplished?

Most likely DGUs would drop to near zero. FIREARM suicides would drop to near-zero, and suicides overall might drop a little (a gun is faster and works at home, a lot of people who take pills or decide to jump off a building change their mind before they’re dead and survive). This would have little/no effect on drug gangs who are usually using illegal guns anyway. And without DGUs, criminals would KNOW their victims are ALWAYS unarmed.
Spree shootings would probably become less frequent. But under 100 people per year die in such incidents anyway, despite the big headlines (you’re literally more likely to get struck by lightning than die in a spree shooting in the USA).

I therefore look at that and say even if you stop a few spree shootings, you don’t do much for gang violence, you empower criminals, and you get rid of the DGUs. I don’t see that as being an effective policy.

the majority of gun owners own guns for fun/sport. So while, yes, it is sad to ruin fun, it’s also sad to have children killed.

And if there was a direct zero-sum tradeoff between sport shooting and dead kids you’d have a really good argument. There isn’t.

Finally, you don’t have to ban all guns, you could keep say, bolt action rifles and single barrel shotguns - where sports and hunting could still continue. This wouldn’t solve all the problems but it might have saved lives multiplicatively in mass shootings.

Well that also removes pistols for personal defense.
But even if you did, what happens when some enterprising machinist with a basement workshop downloads plans for a gun or to turn a bolt action rifle into a semi-auto?

THIS is why gun bans don’t work. They’re too easy to make. The only reason criminals don’t manufacture or import them in great number is because while they’re easy to make, they’re easier to steal or straw purchase. Just because a lot of crime guns were once legal guns doesn’t mean cutting off the legal guns will make gun crime go away.

Curious for your thoughts/reactions to this?

mriormro ,
@mriormro@lemmy.world avatar

Guys, there’s no point in making bombs illegal. Everyone can just buy the ingredients they need from their hardware store and Amazon anyway. /s

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ef1e5065-3fbe-4823-8a88-fb1df3765fde.gif

SirEDCaLot ,

A stupid (as in, not intelligent) analogy.

Bomb laws don’t stop bombers. You CAN buy hardware store ingredients and make a bomb. Most people don’t do such things.

The point of the bomb law is so when they get a tip and raid someone’s house and find a few bricks of C4 wrapped in nails with a clock attached, they have something to arrest him for rather than saying ‘we have to wait until you use this to hurt people’.

But that’s also because that bomb has very few legitimate uses. There aren’t neighborhood bomb ranges where people go to compete and practice. You can’t use a bomb to hunt or protect yourself from 4-legged predators when in the woods. There aren’t bombing tournaments. You can’t use a bomb in self-defense or to protect your home or family. There ARE legitimate uses for bombs in mining, agriculture, industry, etc but those are uncommon and thus highly regulated.

A gun has many legitimate uses, and tens or hundreds of millions of law-abiding Americans use guns legally every day. Neighborhood gun ranges host classes, practice sessions, and competitions / tournaments. Guns are used for hunting and defense from predators in the woods. A gun can defend your home and family from intruders. And a small concealed pistol can be used to defend against street crime.

mriormro ,
@mriormro@lemmy.world avatar

Such confidence, such poise.

werefreeatlast ,

No, no! To prevent these shootings it’s obvious that removing every kid’s trigger finger is the best solution. First we need companies to emerge that can receive these fingers and keep them alive and healthy until the kids are 21 years of age. We should also remove their penises. Sure we could teach sexual health but that’s not something you want in school! Plus just imagine all the money 💰💰🤑🤑 to be made during the removal and reattachment procedures!!! There could be re-attachment ceremonies! And they’re kids so you’re bound to end up with extra fingers in case the 4th of July goes wrong or because the 4th of July went really wrong. And you can choose the orientation! Forget opposing thumbs! That was between us and the animals! Imagine opposing pointing fingers! What couldn’t you do! What couldn’t you do indeed!

superkret ,

Guns aren’t banned in any first world country.
Just more regulated.

Regards, a German gun owner.

endbringer93 ,

They are virtually banned. Like you can’t just have a gun. You need an actual reason to own one like being a hunter though I guess you can claim it’s for hobby too. Still nearly no one here owns a gun.

superkret , (edited )

Still nearly no one here owns a gun.

If you’re speaking about Germany, leave the city, talk to some older folks.
You’d be surprised

They are virtually banned.

There is about as much regulation around guns as around cars in Germany. The license, tax and insurance costs much less for guns, and no one fails the required test unless they point the gun at an instructor.
No one would claim cars are banned.

0x0 ,

Whenever i see guns in 'Murica being discussed i always recommend these 3 videos: [1][2][3]

BeMoreCareful ,

I’m curious, but not curious enough to watch three videos to see what you’re getting at.

nforminvasion ,

Then don’t. Why you gotta announce it??

BigMacHole ,

GOOD! These Alarms that are only used AFTER CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED will Protect Our Children from being Killed!

Ilovethebomb ,

The caps lock makes this sound like a Boomer Facebook post.

USSEthernet ,

It’s pretty basic formatting to put emphasis on specific words.

proofed.com/writing-tips/formatting-emphasis/

EatATaco ,

Check out their profile, it’s quite literally their only schtick.

ThePantser ,
@ThePantser@lemmy.world avatar

Or we could you know, reduce the number of guns. Wonder who the investors are in these school “safety” companies.

Ilovethebomb ,

Which do you think is easier, getting a system like this installed in a school, or changing US gun culture?

obviouspornalt ,

Hmmm, one involves fleecing school district funding in a grift, the other reduces profits to armaments manufacturers.

I really can’t figure this out! How is it possible to know?

Ilovethebomb ,

How is this a grift? The system worked as intended, did it not?

And yes, changing the culture and mentality of an entire nation is the harder option. Do you really think otherwise?

saltesc ,

For the US, I think it would be so slow at catching up to more developed standards of gun control that it would be generational and not a matter of years. It’s not so much the laws that are currently in place that’s the issue, it’s the lack of regulation that’s created such an ingrained culture that’s going to take a long time to evolve. So, technology like this would stil definitely be utilised in the future.

My thoughts, anyway.

And honestly, I didn’t even realise there was another school shooting in the US. Internationally, I guess it just gets covered less and less because it’s not really “news” anymore.

Ilovethebomb ,

I don’t think it even made the news here in NZ, if it did it was just one brief story.

Mass shootings are a matter of routine in the states.

AbidanYre ,

I first saw it on salon under a story about Steve Doocy being an idiot. They barely make the news on the US unless there’s some extra aspect that makes it unusual.

curbstickle ,

I’m all for gun control. As in, significant reforms, nationwide reforms. Real background checks. Limits on the types of guns. Insurance requirements. Safety training requirements. The list can keep on going…

That said, I’d still want an emergency alert system in schools. There are other threats and other situations where it could be needed, there is nothing wrong with having both.

corsicanguppy ,

As in, significant reforms

See: Australia.

curbstickle ,

Juuuust about ideal, definitely.

CameronDev ,

Sure, except we are defenceless to the rampant dropbears. /s

Australia is a funny example for gun control. Yanks seem to think we have no guns at all, but the reality is that as long as you are mentally sound and store your guns safely, they aren’t that hard to get.

curbstickle ,

as long as you are mentally sound and store your guns safely

Yeah, that’s a pretty substantial improvement to what we have in the US.

Scolding7300 ,

Could distract us from the real solution and delay it further

curbstickle ,

Perfect shouldn’t be the enemy of good.

It will take a lot longer to get proper gun control in place in the US. We’ve already got the GOP and their “Well it sucks, but too bad, move on” rhetoric going.

There is no reason not to minimize risk during the time it will take, even to get to where we we were 20 years ago.

93maddie94 ,
@93maddie94@lemm.ee avatar

I like these badges, and want them for my school. First, we absolutely need better gun laws and need to change the gun culture in the United States. But even the school shooter stuff aside, we have 700 elementary kids at my school. Several are prone to seizures. Several are diabetic. MANY have life threatening allergies. Several have disabilities (or poor parenting/lack of resources at home) that leave them prone to outbursts that at a minimum disrupt the classroom and at most endanger the safety of the other students. We do not have enough walkies to give one to every teacher who has a severe need in their classroom. That leaves the option of calling the front office or going to the wall and pushing the call button for the office to respond. Badges like this can help so many stressful situations, and eliminate the excessive amount of chatter on a walkie.

hddsx ,

How does that even work? I’m glad lives were saved but the system must have something I’m missing.

If there is a button on the back of the badge with your picture on it, you can’t use someone else’s badge. It also means there are electronics in the badge, and therefore a battery.

Over time batteries will die and the badge system will become useless unless everyone gets new badges once a semester.

whatwhatwhatwhat ,

I think the way the article worded it is confusing. Every staff member wears a photo ID badge, which is pretty common at most schools. At this school, their photo ID badges have a little button on the back. When that button is pressed, it activates the system.

I’m sure the buttons have little batteries inside them, probably similar to the type of battery in a smoke alarm. These types of batteries can last for years. However, many school districts issue new photo ID badges to staff each school year, so perhaps batteries are being replaced at that time if needed.

curbstickle ,

Looks like this is what they have - www.centegix.com/crisisalert/

Ilovethebomb ,

Over time batteries will die and the badge system will become useless unless everyone gets new badges once a semester.

Or, you know, change the battery. Which would take seconds per unit if you’re doing a whole bunch of them.

hddsx ,

Which would lead to a gap in protection. It’s also not clear if the battery is easily serviced

blackbirdbiryani ,

Mate it’s a trivial problem

Ilovethebomb ,

For a matter of seconds as someone chucks a new battery in the badge, sure.

There’s not a lot of information about how the system actually works, but schools are typically quite budget conscious organisations, so I can’t imagine just throwing out the badge when the battery dies would go down well.

ulkesh ,
@ulkesh@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sure that’s a comfort to the families of the two kids who died and the two adults who died.

Make sure to tell them that everything will be fine now across the nation since there will be panic alarm systems instead of, you know, FIXING THE FUCKING GUN PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The price of freedom: murdered children.

Manifish_Destiny ,

worldpopulationreview.com/…/freedom-index-by-coun…

Sounds like we got scammed there too.

BrianTheeBiscuiteer ,

Gov Abbott already gave law enforcement a verbal handjob for standing around while 20 people were murdered. If we can’t get our numbers down to that of other civilized nations then we’re utter failures at keeping our citizens safe.

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