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linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. I’ve had more than a handful of people bitching at me that it’s impossible to make a new, open web browser in this day.

Diabolo96 OP , (edited )

Their rendering engine is already pretty solide (see penultimate video in their channel). Now that their “no third party code” restriction is lifted, they can actually focus on building a browser engine instead of recreating 30 years worth of technologies from scratch.

brbposting ,

Only 114 million words of spec!

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/7d24cf76-3f61-46e7-969b-91d74035c3e2.jpeg

FractalsInfinite ,

Interestingly the founder of the project seems to explicitly disagree with that article

Xeroxchasechase ,

Good luck!

unlawfulbooger ,

They’re making a new browser engine from scratch in an open way, absolutely amazing!

I do have several questions:

Why would they use BSD instead of GPL? If you care about open-source so much, why would you make it possible for a company to run away with your fancy new engine?

Why are they creating a new browser, when even firefox has to struggle to keep some semblance of market share? I get that not every project needs to aim to be “the biggest”, and that even a smaller project (in terms of users), can be fun. It’s just that writing a browser engine that can handle the modern web seems like an almost Sisyphean task; which makes me wonder what their motivation(?) is.

Why the FLOSS are they using closed-source proprietary discord as their main communication channel?

ggppjj ,

As someone who uses BSD licensed modified code at work and relies on it quite a lot, it’s crucial to me choosing which projects I’m able to use in the first place.

Personally, I prefer a license that allows for commercial use in the way that companies need them to, and if my own work ever can provide a patch back upstream I’d be happy to do so, but most of what I do is just tweaking things that exist to suit my purposes which doesn’t really help anyone but my business rivals which I personally am not interested in doing if I don’t have to.

I prefer to have the freedom to do as I wish with the code, as compared to being bound to do as the author wishes and essentially just not using that code in the first place because I can’t. I’m not in a position to change what I can and can’t do because of the requirements of the business I work for, and I’m grateful to those that choose licenses that allow me to use their work.

They’re creating a new browser because they want to. It started as an OS building project that the lead dev did to help stay sober.

They use discord because it’s popular. Insert Ouroborus argument here, and at the end of the day it’s still the most popular app.

tron ,
@tron@midwest.social avatar

They use discord because it’s popular. Insert Ouroborus argument here, and at the end of the day it’s still the most popular app.

Using this logic why shouldn’t I just download chrome and forget this project exists?

ggppjj ,

Depending on your use case, maybe you should. If your use case is “using the internet today securely”, then you definitely should.

I’m not trying to create a logical puzzle that teasing the right details out of will solve, I’m not even advocating for or against their decision, discord fuckin sucks shit and I can’t wait for element to continue to mature towards enough feature parity that a switch is seamless so that I can actually convince my friends to switch too, I’m reporting a reality of life on the internet today.

Diabolo96 OP ,
  1. (BSD vs GPL) Andreas stated on twitter that he wanted to give devs total freedom to use his work because when he worked at Apple he felt frustrated he couldn’t incorporate some code/software into his work because of GPL.
  2. (Why?) The aim is not to create a chrome competitor, but to make a good enough, truly free browser that isn’t either chrome or funded by chrome. A browser made for and by its user’s.
  3. (Discord) Because of gen-z.
laxe ,

I want to follow updates from this project. They have a Twitter account but not Mastodon sigh

infeeeee ,

https://lemm.ee/api/v3/image_proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F8vly0c.jpg

RSS is not even enabled on the Newz page on the website.

Diabolo96 OP ,

I share the disappointment.

infeeeee ,

I found they have a newsletter, that sounds like an acceptable middle ground, not good, not terrible.

mynamesnotrick ,

Im glad to see this. Discord is a nightmare. It’s the same as a Facebook only group to me.

Scrollone ,

I agree, but (hot take) I think that Discord is even worse than Facebook.

Logh ,

Love the idea! Shopify as the highest tier sponsor? Not so much.

Spedwell ,

I’m curious what issue you see with that? It seems like the project is only accepting unrestricted donations, but is there something suspicious about shopify that makes it’s involvement concerning (I don’t know much about them)?

themurphy ,

My best guess would be that Shopify either care about the open Web or had some disagreements with Google.

I can’t find anything shady on them, but maybe I’m looking the wrong places.

vantablack ,
@vantablack@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

found this

www.theglobeandmail.com/…/article33973253/

themurphy ,

While controversial, I think it’s more a product of how insane US “politics” are.

They could be good guys even so.

anivia ,

My guess is they just want a high value backlink for their SEO performance 😉

yessikg ,
@yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

They fired a lot of people and replaced them with AI: techcrunch.com/…/how-shopify-bungled-its-latest-l…

Prandom_returns ,

Why? Shopify has been sponsoring stuff like community gaming events for a few years now.

mynamesnotrick ,

Laaaaaaaaa^dybird.^

c0smokram3r ,

The comment I came here for 🐶

Assman ,
@Assman@sh.itjust.works avatar

We’re gonna have to put laaaaaaaadybird down… Mr Hill?

solrize ,

It’s hard to understand the purpose of this. The difficulty of the project (i.e. complexity of the web) is the real problem that needs solving. We don’t need another fork of the browser-verse. We need a fork of the web itself.

Lost_My_Mind ,

They have a fork of the web. Its called the dark web. They use it to sell hookers and drugs.

Diabolo96 OP ,

We also have a fork of money, it’s called crypto and it’s used to sell and buy hookers and drugs. Every fork of something end up used to buy hookers and drugs. Truly marvelous!

Lost_My_Mind ,

I mean…yes?

shortwavesurfer ,

It’s also used to buy baking pans, dove soap, coffee makers, and toasters. Xmrbazaar.com

boonhet ,

Uhhhhhhhhhh

How many of those listings are code for something?

shortwavesurfer ,

None that I’m aware of. I guess it’s possible, but I have not seen it be the case yet.

Edit: I can tell you for a fact that the ones I’m listing are legitimate. And if you don’t believe me, try purchasing one with the multi-signature escrow.

xmrbazaar.com/user/shortwavesurfer2009

smileyhead ,

Dark web should really be called dark or overlay Internet.

All dark “web” browser use the same rendering engines and same spec as regular ones.

turkalino ,
@turkalino@lemmy.yachts avatar

Considering how much Google has entrenched itself into the Internet (see manifest v3 fiasco), I would argue that creating a new browser is a fork of the web

hamsterkill ,

Best of luck, I guess, but seems like a doomed project to me. Forking WebKit, Gecko, or even Servo would seem much more reasonable, and even that is a huge undertaking.

MigratingtoLemmy ,

Contributing directly to Firefox and reducing the dependence on Google should be three best bet

timbuck2themoon ,

Don’t even have to fork. Just contribute to servo.

robocall ,
@robocall@lemmy.world avatar

I use Firefox.

loics2 ,

Ok

Toes ,

Kudos to them. Opera gave up on this dream being unable to accommodate all the nuances of web standards and accounting for out of conformance behaviours that many websites rely on the daily.

I reckon this browser will need to be at least on par with reasonably recent version of Firefox to see significant adoption.

pentagrammar ,

I still mourn the death of Presto-days Opera.

kamen ,

I do too. What a joke the browser became after moving to Chromium… I remember it didn’t even have bookmarks in the first version.

On the flip side I kind of understand the decision to pull the plug - if you’ve looked at Browser.js and think that potentially any site might need a fix to work properly…

venoft ,
@venoft@lemmy.world avatar

Funny how in the video the guy say that all other browsers are based on Google’s code. But Firefox is also independent right?

infeeeee ,

He says “powered by or funded by Google”. Firefox depends on Google financially, most of the income of Mozilla comes from Google paying for being the default search engine.

They try to diversify their income (Firefox VPN, email alias service, etc.), but anything they try gets a huge backlash from the community, and still small compared to the the money from google.

maxinstuff ,
@maxinstuff@lemmy.world avatar

Is this their way of asking Google for money?

Bali ,

I think google need firefox exist to avoid anti trust, and Mozilla need google to keep the the six figures payroll for the CEO. So yes.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Google is Mozilla’s biggest source of income, and google developers have actively contributed code to the Firefox engine.

So you decide for yourself what level of independence you assign to it.

shortwavesurfer ,

Firefox gets tons of funding from Google, and their code is quite frankly humongous. From what I understand, it’s extremely hard to get the gecko web view engine to work. In another browser, unless it’s a fork of Firefox, unlike Chromium where you can just redesign an entire browser around it.

AProfessional ,

Neither Chromium nor Gecko have a stable public API. Companies are just willing to spend money rebasing every Chromium update.

decivex ,

It doesn’t help that there’s basically no documentation for how to use the Gecko engine either.

bobc7 ,
@bobc7@lemmy.world avatar

is it open source?

infeeeee ,

github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird

Caligvla ,
@Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I hope this pans out, because I’ve long ago lost hope on Firefox being a worthy alternative to Chromium.

Transform2942 ,

Have you used Firefox recently? There are a few chrome only sites but I’ve been daily driving it for a few months and it’s mostly upside

PopOfAfrica ,

I can no longer play any podcast hosted on Apple podcasts, which is a distressing amount of them.

They work just fine in Chromium.

Transform2942 ,

Fair enough, I capitulated and I use spotify for podcasts now

PopOfAfrica ,

The only reason I dont use spoitfy, which one particular show was available on both, is because it doesnt support my RSS feed.

ianovic69 ,
@ianovic69@feddit.uk avatar

Try Antenna.

Petter1 ,

You can use the app cider for that (Oh, it is a Electron app 😂🙈)

boonhet ,

Huh, I just went to the website to try and it worked for me

PopOfAfrica ,

No clue, I guess I’m just not lucky. It doesn’t work on either my phone or my desktop

noxy ,
@noxy@yiffit.net avatar

Firefox has been perfectly capable for the entire time it has existed. What are you talking about?

asdfasdfasdf ,

C++

If they’re starting a browser from scratch, why would they not have chosen Rust? Seems very short sighted to not have learned from Firefox.

maxinstuff ,
@maxinstuff@lemmy.world avatar

Must be planning on actually shipping something

/s

asdfasdfasdf ,

Ship what, segfaults / invalid memory access? Lol

boonhet ,

CVEs lol

ProdigalFrog ,

They used c++ initially since it was spawned from SerenityOS, which was designed to be a mashup of win2000 and unix.

now that Ladybird is its own project, it’s not constrained to that goal, and they have said they will incorporate modern languages.

asdfasdfasdf ,

Glad to hear that!

Fitik ,
@Fitik@fedia.io avatar

@asdfasdfasdf There's Servo ( @servo ), it's a browser engine written in rust

@Diabolo96

asdfasdfasdf ,

Yes, that’s what I’m referring to. They could build on that, or they could write something their own in Rust. But I’d think building on Servo would be fantastic.

Diabolo96 OP ,

I know about servo. It was pretty much a dead project until they joined the Linux fondation last year and started getting some sponsorship. Since then, they being doing pretty good on there own with personal donations rising by around 20% each month, reaching more than 2000$ monthly. Wish them all the best!

HKayn ,
@HKayn@dormi.zone avatar

This you?

forum.qt.io/topic/142885/rewriting-qt-in-rust

unconfirmedsourcesDOTgov ,

The website makes it sound like all of the code being bespoke and “based on standards” is some kind of huge advantage but all I see is a Herculean undertaking with too few engineers and too many standards.

W3C lists 1138 separate standards currently, so if each of their three engineers implements one discrete standard every day, with no breaks/weekends/holidays, then having an alpha available that adheres to all 2024 web standards should be possible by 2026?

This is obviously also without testing but these guys are serious, senior engineers, so their code will be perfect on the first try, right?

Love the passion though, can’t wait to see how this project plays out.

weststadtgesicht ,

W3C lists 1138 separate standards currently, so if each of their three engineers implements one discrete standard every day, with no breaks/weekends/holidays, then having an alpha available that adheres to all 2024 web standards should be possible by 2026?

Yes, that is exactly the plan: “We are targeting Summer 2026 for a first Alpha version”

Tywele ,

You are assuming that they only started now from point 0. They have probably been working on it for a bit before announcing everything.

JackbyDev ,

They say they already use it to manage GitHub issues so it’s definitely more than “point 0” right now.

Matriks404 ,

Exactly. They have been working on Ladybird Browser for few years already, before it was announced as standalone product (It was a part of SerenityOS).

Blackmist ,

And it passes the Acid3 test, which is more than Firefiox does.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

a Herculean undertaking with too few engineers and too many standards

Yeah, as a layperson this is my take. If mozilla is struggling to stay in the game then I just don’t really see how an unfinanced indie team has a shot.

Scrollone ,

Let’s not forget that Mozilla (the company) is largely mismanaged, so that doesn’t help.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

It might seem that way but it’s a fairly arrogant assertion. They’re a sophisticated organisation with a lot of well experienced people guiding them. As an outsider it’s easy to criticise their seemingly endless series of bad decisions, but I’m still confident that internally all of these decisions seemed like a good idea at the time.

Besides which, this would be a good reason to fork their codebase rather than starting from scratch.

merthyr1831 ,

Mozilla has loads of projects, not just the browser. I doubt more than a 30 work exclusively on the engine nowadays.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Even if that were true, and it seems unlikely, that’s still an order of magnitude more than the ladybug devs.

0x0 ,

Let’s not do zomething because it’s hard pretty much sums up every new generation.

Imagine if they said that when they had to program everything in assembly…

Holzkohlen ,

Software nowadays is a lot more complex. You’d get nowhere using assembly. Are you also gonna call me lazy if I say making a smartphone from scratch is complicated? “But the Nokia 1234 only had 4kb of memory” Is what you will probably say.

0x0 ,

You’d get nowhere using assembly because people wanted to keep improving technology.

The Nokia was actually build and freakin’ rock solid. Then came smartphones because people wanted to improve. It sure wasn’t easy and they didn’t go Geez, a phone from scratch? Why bother?

merthyr1831 ,

Sure, but an individual website may use only a few of those standards. Ladybird devs will pick a website they like to use - Reddit, Twitter, Twinings tea, etc. and improve adherence to X or Y standards to make that one website look better. In turn, thousands of websites suddenly work perfectly, and many others work better than before.

Ladybird is largely conformant to the majority of HTML standards now. It’s about the edge cases (and where standards aren’t followed by websites) and performance. This isn’t a new project.

NaoPb ,

Lol, mentioning Twinings tea together with Reddit and Twitter sounds so random

merthyr1831 ,

Andreas Kling, the founder and lead dev, has a massive love for Twinings tea and spent a few Dev logs working on improving their website with the end goal being ordering his tea from them :)

NaoPb ,

That is a nice little tidbit of information :)

Diplomjodler3 ,

They’ve been at it for four years and they plan to have an alpha by 2026. Maybe wait how it actually turns out?

rottingleaf ,

Wait, 1138? If there are any Star Wars fans in there, there won’t be more.

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