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Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

The fucking DOORS require a charged battery? Fuck that. That decision will age great in the next ten years. Not to mention emergency situations where the electrical system is compromised.

thefool ,

There’s a release latch on the doors beside the “open door” buttons. I guess no I’ve else is pointing that out?

lennivelkant ,

Is that latch on the inside or the outside?

vox ,
@vox@sopuli.xyz avatar

obviously inside as putting it outside would make thieves job significantly easier.
you can still break a window to pull it if there’s an emergency like with basically all other cars

zalgotext ,

No, with basically all other cars you can just unlock and open the doors with a physical key and a physical handle. That’s the next step in an emergency when the electronic locks fail, not fucking breaking through the fucking windows.

vaultdweller013 ,

Pretty sure thats on the inside of the car and is actually covered as well. Release latch means shit in this situation, especially since car door design was more or less perfected over a hundred years ago at this point. Change for the sake of change is a damndable concept for tech.

thefool ,

I’ve had a couple of passengers open the door using the latch because they didn’t know about the Open Door button.

I’m not saying it’s a good design (it’s dumb) but you can get out when there is no power

laurelraven ,

It’s worse than that: it requires the old school lead acid 12v battery to be charged, so even if the car’s battery is full, it doesn’t matter if that old car battery has failed

That’s not unique to Tesla EVs, but it being required to open the doors may be (the 12v lead acid runs the general vehicle electronics rather than down converting the 400v or 800v main battery… I don’t understand that decision, but I’m no electronics expert so there may be really good reasons for it…)

Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

I can understand why. I’m guessing it’s for a couple reasons, maybe fluctuations in the voltage depending on driving conditions ( if you’re stomping on the throttle allowing everything to flow through the motors it may provide inconsistent voltage to the sensitive computers and electronics, I would imagine there is a step-down converter somewhere that charges that 12v battery, essentially that battery is used as a buffer. But the link between the big batt. and little batt. isn’t active unless the vehicle is on. And “On” requires the 12v system to turn on computers and close a relay.

Doors relying on ANY electronics is a bad idea. Even most cars with keyless entry have a hidden key somewhere to physically get in the vehicle if the battery dies. If the main battery in a tesla is toast you have bigger problems than a locked door. But anyone who has been driving for more than a few years has likely dealt with an OG battery decides to stop taking a charge. And you probably won’t get much of a warning in an EV that doesn’t have an engine that starts turning over slower and slower.

nerd_E7A8 ,

Let me start by stating that requiring the battery to open/close doors is a bad design choice overall. There should always be a way to open the door using a physical key.

Ok, having said that, the 12V is a better choice. It’s easier to replace a 12V battery in case it fails and forcing the main battery to power everything runs the risk of draining that. Li-Ion batteries don’t react well to being completely drained.

Besides, all EVs have a way to attach an external battery to the 12V system in case of total power failure, which will then allow you to do whatever you need. In case of Tesla Model Y there are two cables hidden in the tow eye cover that power the hood release. With the hood open you can charge the 12V battery directly.

dukatos ,

James May made a video about how easy is to recharge Tesla’s battery

laurelraven ,

Thank you for providing the good reasons for it, it makes much more sense now

jonne ,

I really don’t understand why they still use those heavy lead acid ones. Couldn’t you at least get a lighter lithium battery if it has to be a separate circuit?

Verat ,

To be fair I think it is there as a backup for low temperature climates, the Lithium batteries wont charge at temps that low, but they still could have setup the lithium batteries as an emergency backup for all the 12v stuff.

areyouevenreal ,

When the car isn’t driving I believe the main battery isn’t connected for safety reasons. It’s a high voltage battery, and having it connected all the time even when the car is being serviced is an unnecessary safety risk.

Yeah they could and probably should use a different battery technology than lead acid. Preferably something with a wide temperature range. Lithium Titanate Oxide anyone?

spookedintownsville ,

I know that hybrids like the Prius (at least the older ones) use the inverter to charge the 12v battery with the EV battery to make the ICE beltless (no AC compressor, alternator, etc driven by the ICE) which is supposed to increase fuel efficiency.

vox ,
@vox@sopuli.xyz avatar

there’s a mechanical override inside the car, but from outside doors can only be opened via nfc or remotely irrc (not a real safety issue tho as the doors can still be opened by breaking the windows like in basically all other cars)

Maggoty ,

Clearly it’s a safety issue. You should not have to break it to use it.

Guy_Fieris_Hair , (edited )

insideevs.com/…/testing-tesla-laminated-glass-vs-…

They have laminated glass on the doors. Yes, it can break, but it takes saws to actually open. Having to get through a window to open a door because a battery died is very much a safety issue. Especially with how prone they are to having their batteries catch on fire. Relying in the electrical system or a super secret back up plan on the interior of the car in an emergency is stupid.

rsuri ,

Now imagine this happens in a remote area with no cell coverage. In Arizona those are a thing too.

Yawweee877h444 ,

I assume Arizona has rocks and bricks and stuff lying around somewhere

erwan ,

Luckily not even the Cybertruck is immune to those

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. You go out to grab a rock, go back in and smash the windows. Or keep one tactical door opening rock beneath the seat.

Morphit ,
@Morphit@feddit.uk avatar

beneath the seat

For the toddler to use?

There is a mechanical door release if you’re trapped inside. To get in from outside obviously needs the vehicle to unlock, so it has to be jump started.

Even if there was some kind of back-up mechanical lock I can’t see anyone carrying around a key only for this specific eventuality. A glass breaker key-ring might be the best option — along with understanding how to use these emergency features in case you need them. A glass breaker might also save you in a fire or ending up underwater.

lightnsfw ,

To get in from outside obviously needs the vehicle to unlock, so it has to be jump started.

and how do you get to the battery to do that if you can’t get inside?

Morphit ,
@Morphit@feddit.uk avatar

There’s a panel that can be popped out to open the hood with a 12V power supply: tesla.com/…/GUID-34181E3A-B4A7-4658-906A-38C6647B…

lightnsfw ,

Well at least there’s a way in… Lot’s of trouble could be save by simply having a mechanical key.

iamanurd ,

That’s the fun part. They’ve made it so the windows don’t break now either. m.youtube.com/watch?v=6tnEDH1HfD0

01189998819991197253 ,
@01189998819991197253@infosec.pub avatar

These two remind me of the early Apple fanboys, completely talking around all the bad parts and focusing only on perceived good parts. Except, here, they’re fan-ing on a decision that was made a long time ago (using tempered glass on side windows) for exactly the reason they state is ‘bad’–it explodes into a bunch of non-sharp shards. This decision was made, and agreed upon by auto manufacturers, to prevent people getting stuck in cars on fire. Internal mechanical releases do nothing when the person inside is unconscious or is a toddler, as is in this case.

Morphit ,
@Morphit@feddit.uk avatar

That is fun, I didn’t know that was a thing. I imagine that roll-overs are more common than submersion in water, but even so, that doesn’t sound like a great trade-off. Even in a crash, being able to quickly jump out the window is good — especially if the vehicle is on fire.

MeanEYE , (edited )
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Mechanical release is hidden and not commonly used, or if ever. In moments of utter panic people will not even remember it exists, let alone use it.

Morphit ,
@Morphit@feddit.uk avatar

The front ones don’t seem to be hidden, but yeah - if they’re not meant to be used regularly, people won’t remember them in an emergency. I guess the rear ones are hidden because they probably bypass child-locks.

I don’t know how child-locks work on mechanical door latches. If the vehicle locks when in motion and the child-locks are on I don’t think there are emergency releases on most vehicles? The only ways out would be to get into the front cabin, break the windows, or find the internal boot release.

Wrench ,

Yeah, but I don’t think EVs have spark plugs to smash and use to break the windows. Checkmate.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

No need for remoteness. Imagine you drive into water or battery catches fire. You aren’t opening those doors.

brlemworld ,

There is a manual release on the inside … So yes you are.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

No you are not. People panic and default to most common behavior, this is why emergency exercises are a thing. In other words, the hidden manual release somewhere in the car that was never used is not going to be used in the moment of panic. You won’t even remember it exists.

Also, that’s only on some cars and only in the front. None on the back seat.

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b991ee56-eaca-4a7a-9909-b0862b65465b.jpeg

It is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally sitting right on the door handle. Also even with a standard 1990 car with fully manual doors you are not going to be escaping out the doors if your car falls into water. The pressure differential of the water pushing against your door prevents you from opening it until the entire inside of the car has filled with water, MythBusters did a whole episode on this back in the day if you want to go find that for the full story. But the tldr is that once your car is in the water you’re only Escape options are to break the window, get the window rolled down, or wait until the entire car has filled with water and the pressure equalizes

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

I looked into all the manuals before posting that to make sure. Turns out they did improve on some models location of it. Which is commendable. But some are downright retarded. Am also well aware about effect of pressure and similar. Am less worried about the water than getting stranded in the car after crash or if battery catches on fire.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Also, thanks for the edit and correcting your statement. We live and we learn. Unless pride prevents us from doing so.

brlemworld ,

Now imagine you are under the ocean talking to Aquaman.

Gigagoblin ,
@Gigagoblin@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Aquaman’s on a horse.

Psythik ,

In the middle of nowhere, maybe. But I’ve been on several road trips across the state and had service the entire way, mostly LTE with a few spots of 3G here and there. As long as you’re near the highway or a town, you’ll get service.

PlutoParty ,

There are giant swaths of area with no coverage, especially in the mountains of arizona, including the freeways and especially highways. The entire western US can be spotty with signal out in the great wide open. It isn’t until the Midwest and more east that one should largely not worry about signal coverage anymore.

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/0b4b05ef-a48b-40ae-8972-f5f6422b34ac.jpeg

Easy enough to get out, if you have a couple braincells to rub together. The manual release is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally right on the door handle

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

nutsack ,

what happens when a car catches fire because the electrical system is on fire and you can’t Open the door because it’s electric

Buddahriffic ,

Manual release or you die, just like that lady that drove hers into her pond.

Lev_Astov , (edited )
@Lev_Astov@lemmy.world avatar

There are manual releases on each door inside, but I’m surprised they don’t have them outside as well.

Reading more about it, I find that many only have manual releases on the front doors until recently and they have a connection point you’re meant to jump with power to unlock and open from the outside. I didn’t think anyone would be okay waiting for a jump to get their baby out, but then these people waited for firemen to break their window, so…

chiliedogg ,

Hidden manual releases that still require you to push the door through the windows trim. FFS people have already died because of this shit. Why the hell hasn’t there been a mandatory recall on all Teslas over this?

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/40f91590-5145-4604-82b9-e64232b2b46c.jpeg

It’s not fucking hidden, it’s right on the fucking door. Right there, in plain view. Fuck elon but equally fuck idiots who never read their manual or bother to learn fucking anything about a product then claim bullshit like that. Nothing about this is fucking hidden.

The rear doors also have one, that’s the only one you could argue is “hidden” as it’s in the little storage pocket area

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

Chetzemoka ,

A child isn’t going to find that. A rescuer who isn’t familiar with Teslas isn’t going to be able to find that.

I couldn’t even figure out how to open a fully functional door from outside the first time I got in a Tesla. I’m an adult who’s been driving my entire life.

That’s not innovation; it’s a safety hazard for the sake of the aesthetics of a handle that doesn’t stick out. I don’t view that as a reasonable trade-off.

desktop_user ,

At least it looks different than all the other door opening mechanisms. also rtfm before driving a car. Safety shouldn’t influence artistic choice btw.

Chetzemoka ,

I’m not reading the manual of the Uber I’m about to climb into. A firefighter isn’t going to read the manual of a car they’re trying to pry me out of.

I DO read the manual on the Kia I actually drive. To read about the recommendations for the tires. To read about replacing fuses. To find the load hauling capacity. Not how to open the fucking door.

safety shouldn’t influence artistic choice

Did you really just string those words together in all seriousness without a hint of irony? And that folks is exactly why we need the NHTSA.

desktop_user ,

Aesthetic choice should be more important than idiotic safety for personal vehicles. It should be every American’s right to drive vehicles that put them selves in higher danger, especially if it means proper defense from firefighters.

Chetzemoka ,

Sure thing, troll ✌️

0x0 ,

Not even the door locks are mechanical? So much built-in obsolescence…

rottingleaf ,

Idiocracy was a prophetic movie, with everything working, eh, like this and planes falling.

ryathal ,

I haven’t has a car with mechanical locks in a long time. I’ve also not had a battery so dead the locks didn’t work.

blackn1ght ,

Yet.

KnowledgeableNip ,

There’s usually some sort of mechanical release for safety for stuff like this.

ryathal ,

From inside sure, most cars have an override in the handle. It doesn’t change the lockout problem.

Honytawk ,

From the outside it is with a key.

atrielienz ,

On the mach E, my understanding is there’s a panel where you hook up a jump box that supplies power to those circuits to allow you to use your key fob to open the door. But there’s no bladed key to manually unlock the car. So technically there’s a failsafe but it’s not ideal. And I agree it ought not be allowed.

nutsack ,

how the fuck are you going to put power into the thing if you don’t have a charged battery

what the fuck is wrong with putting a door handle somewhere

atrielienz ,

There’s a little panel you can use the uncut key blade to pop out and a power and ground wire in them that’s accessible outside the vehicle. Of course that requires you to have a jump box or another car and some leads. I don’t know who needs to hear this but stay real close to civilization if you drive one of these. Don’t get stranded in no man’s land.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yeah, not buying that kind of nonsense. I hate how defensively I have to think when buying a car. This and electronic ebrakes really bother me.

Wrench ,

Yeah, that’s fucking stupid, and requires the electronics to not be damaged in whatever emergency situation you’ve found yourself in to require this external battery override solution.

Maggoty ,

I have a Toyota where the electronic part of one door has completely failed. It still opens. You shouldn’t have to break out of your own car.

Wrench ,

My wife’s EV has a tiny key that comes out of the dongle, and has a tiny hidden keyhole under the handle.

I had to Google to find it, but it’s sufficient if power is out. It’s a mechanical lock mechanism like cars have had for a century. As it should be.

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f2429787-0c25-4e15-93c9-561f1e3f5a0f.jpeg

It is, people are just stupid, can’t be bothered to read, or even wonder what that lever literally right on the door handle is for.

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

slayback ,

It’s definitely also in the X.

LordKitsuna ,

Yes, but it’s hidden behind the speaker Grill rather than just right on the door handle all the other models also have some type of covering or otherwise have hidden it it seems only the model 3 decided to put it in a very obvious spot

slayback ,

No, it’s the exact same as the model 3.

LordKitsuna ,

Owners manual says it’s behind some kinda grill on the x, at least that’s what’s coming up when I search for it

Mouselemming ,

I had something similar happen to me years ago in a Toyota minivan. The car stalled and died in traffic, some kind of electrical glitch. I got out to raise the hood. The door closed behind me and it came up with just enough battery to lock itself, with my keys in the ignition and my two babies and quadriplegic husband inside. It was 107° outside. And pre-cellphones. I bolted to the nearby gas station to call 911 and grab something to break a window. Meanwhile hubby tried to coach toddler how to wriggle out of car seat and open door, but straps were too snug. Firehouse was near, and the jammed traffic was all in one direction so they used the opposite side and didn’t take long, and they jimmied the door open quickly. But it was boiling in there. Sat the kids by the road to cool off with water and get checked by paramedics, gave water to husband in car with open doors, and waited for a tow to the gas station so I could lower the ramp and get my husband out. Meanwhile of course we made the traffic even worse, but people weren’t too mad when they saw our plight as they squeezed past.

I’m wondering, did some similar glitch happen here, or do Tesla doors lock every time they shut?

assassin_aragorn ,

Might be the doors are fail shut if anything happens… But that seems like the worst design ever.

Come to think of it, it’s basic design to designate features as fail closed/fail open on loss of power in an emergency, and you go with what’s inherently safe. It appears Tesla did not consider basic safety design. To no one’s surprise.

Passerby6497 ,

You’re assuming they didn’t consider it, vs having considered it and thought that its more important to protect property than peoples’ lives. Again, to no one’s surprise.

assassin_aragorn ,

It really says something when even oil companies will design for these considerations but Tesla won’t.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I design process control equipment for a living and you are 100% correct. When the controller/PLC dies or the power goes out everything goes to a safe state that protects the human. Big part of the design decisions.

assassin_aragorn ,

I’ve unfortunately been working on process control strategies for almost a year now on new and novel applications for my company, so I’ve been intimately familiar with this. If it isn’t obvious, this isn’t my favorite professional area of interest hahaha.

Designating fail open and fail closed valves is so intrinsic to what I’ve been doing that I can’t imagine someone designing a car control system and not thinking about that at all.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I designed a quencher system that failed closed, no water flowing, during outages once. Granted I was an intern but still not my proudest moment.

It’s weird now as my employer is slowing moving into motion control tech for waste. Seeing the changes like having to really think about hardwired limit switches and safety relays. Chemical world I feel is easier.

assassin_aragorn ,

We all make mistakes. I once forgot to include gravity in a pressure drop calculation for a 100 ft vertical pipe as part of a steam drum system. I had to send an awkward email revising the design pressure I previously communicated out.

But hey, if we were perfect, we wouldn’t need peer review.

I have a little bit of experience with limit switches, but that’s really interesting. It certainly seems like an unusual system. I’m a lot more familiar with safety relays.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Imagine there is a process that makes a gas that is too hot. The solution is to spray the gas outlet with water. That’s a quencher. The PLC controls the amount the water valve is open or rather how much to close it. If the PLC dies the valve should open up as much as possible and blast water. It is better to waste water instead of risking hot gas going through ducting systems that can’t handle it.

My mistake was putting failed closed valves in the system. If there was a power outage or a dead PLC no water would have cooled the gas. And presumably the ducting would have melted and there would have been fires.

Like I said my most embarrassing mistake. At least we caught it before shipment.

assassin_aragorn ,

It happens! The important part is review and learning from the mistakes.

n0clue ,

IDK about Tesla but yeah Toyotas like to lock themselves.

poorlytunedAstring ,

Auto-lock doors have been a nightmare in general. I always roll a window down at least far enough to stick an arm through every time I get out of a running car because of the one time forever ago that I left a 90s Pontiac Skylark running, shut the door, and it autolocked with the keys in the ignition and the motor running. I had to get my girlfriend to drive me back to my apartment for the spare key while the car was humming away, and I never forgot that. If I wasn’t close to home, with a helpful ride nearby, and a spare key on hand, I’d have been screwed.

Talk about features that need regulated out. All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.

kalleboo ,

Every car I’ve driven with keyless ignition (which seems to be the standard now) refuses to lock if it detects the key inside the car, even if you try to do it manually by pressing the lock button, so hopefully this is a solved problem now.

I’ve honestly never heard of self-locking cars doors, that’s a crazy idea.

uid0gid0 ,

Our new keyless ignition vehicle wouldn’t fully close the hatch with the doors locked and the keys in the car. It would go down half way and play the “I can’t close” noise.

laurelraven ,

Last couple cars I’ve had that’s been a setting you can change… I set mine to lock when the car moves at more than a few mph, the other options seemed like too high a chance to cause an accidental lockout to me

0x0 ,

All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.

Color discrimination?

intensely_human ,

Yup, racism. Right out in the open. Upvoted, even.

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

I’m glad that had a happy ending and sorry that happen. Autolock is so dangerous.

limelight79 ,

Most cars I’ve used with it won’t lock until you put it in drive or start moving at a certain speed; I assume that’s because of incidents like this one.

wagoner ,

Tesla model 3 doors do not lock immediately every time they shut. But if you use your cell phone as a key, the default behavior is that they are locked if you walk away with the phone a few yards.

Hexarei ,
@Hexarei@programming.dev avatar

Specifically, it’s that the doors opening mechanisms are powered, and the power was not being applied to open them. There is no exterior mechanical entry option.

Mouselemming ,

Ah, that is stupid.

Maggoty ,

Failsafe.

Fail Safe.

Fail Open.

Elon is why we need to write safety regulations. He’s the kind of guy who would put sawdust in your food and call it innovation.

Buddahriffic , (edited )

Agree on your overall sentiment, though I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors. You don’t want it to fail and come open while moving, for example, especially if the car is coming to a stop and inertia forces the doors fully open. That Boeing door failed open and it was not very safe.

Vehicle doors should be fail functional rather than open to fail safe. As in designed to be very unlikely to fail and/or still functional even if one or several components do fail.

Edit: I normally avoid commenting on my downvotes (you win some, you lose some) but this one is baffling. What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Two options:

  • your statement comes off a bit ignorant - a failsafe would just pop the latch (and up and down motion) and wouldn’t be impacted by braking forces (front and back motion)
  • you weren’t explicitly saying bad things about Elon Musk

But the general idea of things still working despite failure is the essence of what the OP was saying. People seem to not like comments that refine what others say (I have plenty of experience there), they prefer comments that either correct or blatantly support the parent comment. I don’t get it, but whatever.

Buddahriffic ,

For the fail-safe bit, if the latching system fails to an unlatched position, then the inertia of the door itself could cause it to open on braking and turns (or if someone leans on it or bumps it), since nothing else would be holding it in place.

Obligatory fuck Elon Musk lol.

It’s not generally as bad here as it is on Reddit. I still see the occasional comments that make me wonder if their author has any reading comprehension skills, but Reddit seemed to have representation from those kinds of posters in most comment threads. Even on the topics where Lemmy has general biases for, comments can still go off the beaten trail without getting crucified.

Though with the smaller sample size of voters, I think Lemmy might see more cases where a comment initially goes one way and then swings the other way, which seems to be the case with my comment above, at least for now (and is part of the reason why I try to refrain from ever commenting on the votes, but usually there’s also a spicy or bolder part of my comment where I’m not as surprised if it goes negative).

Maggoty ,

Sure, for the electrical part. But the door as a whole should Fail Open. You can pull over with an open door. You should not have to break the door to escape after a failure.

petrol_sniff_king ,

I think the point, though, is there should be a redundant system to handle failures, like a mechanical-only door handle.

Another example: your dashboard touchscreen fails, there should still be a button to turn on the AC. Or off. Whatever makes this analogous to the safety concern about doors.

Maggoty ,

Yes, I agree with that.

todd_bonzalez ,

I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors.

Car doors work fine on every car but a Tesla. They aren’t some new technology invented by Tesla where design flaws like this are understandable. Tesla just does things so badly that they invent brand new dangers that only exist with their vehicles.

You don’t want it to fail and come open

That isn’t what “fail open” means. It doesn’t mean that the moment the battery dies all the doors fly open. It means that when the battery dies the doors aren’t latched shut like a bank safe.

At a minimum, the key should offer a way to open the car from the outside when the battery is dead. It’s completely asinine to put the only emergency latch on the inside of the car where you can’t use it, especially since it is hidden so deep most people can’t find it without the manual.

What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?

You’re giving Elon Musk’s awful cars the benefit of a doubt by pretending that this isn’t a completely reckless design flaw that should never have existed in the first place, and you are deliberately misinterpreting what “fail open” means to make it sound like a ridiculous solution instead of the industry safety best practice that it actually is.

Also, you’re complaining about downvotes, so expect even more now I guess.

Buddahriffic ,

Car doors that aren’t on teslas don’t fail open, they are reliable enough that I can’t think of hearing about any failures that don’t involve a collision and deforming of the door (in which case it’s a fail closed and they use the jaws of life to get people out, or another door).

An electronic latch is either engaged or it isn’t. Fail open would mean that in the absence of an electronic signal saying it should be closed, the latch will default to not being engaged, which would mean there’s nothing holding the door closed if another force acts on it.

Don’t assume any benefit of the doubt about Tesla’s. I made no comment one way or another about what I think of their doors vs other doors. For the record, I agree completely that they fucked up this part of the design. The purpose of my comment was to say that taking that design and adding “fail open” to it won’t fix it. Fail open and fail closed both have problems with an electronic latch and the only way to fix it without causing other big problems is to design it in a way that still functions as a door that can be open or latched closed whether or not the electronic part of the latch is working.

And I’m “deliberately misinterpreting” what fail open means? I’m having trouble understanding how it can mean anything other than how I’m interpreting it, even with your clarification, given the disagreement about other car doors failing open. Maybe it’s a misnomer that I’m misinterpreting but why are you assuming I’m doing this in bad faith?

The downvotes themselves don’t matter, I asked because I wanted to know the reasoning behind them, well aware that bringing them up at all will probably result in more of them.

EnderMB ,

A lot of people are giving Tesla shit here, but surely there should be regulations in place to ensure something like this isn’t allowed to be released for public use?

SturgiesYrFase ,
@SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml avatar

You’d think.

CafecitoHippo ,

Sure you’d think you wouldn’t need regulations that state that there should be a manual way to open your car door. Have we gotten that stupid? Why in god’s name would you not have that option? What happens if the battery dies and you can’t start the car? You can’t open the door to pop the hood to even jump it. With all the brilliant people that work at a company like Tesla and no one thought there should be a way to open the door from the outside if there’s no power?

areyouevenreal ,

They do have a manual way of opening the car door if memory serves. It’s just in a hard to find place where a toddler wouldn’t think to look. Either way it’s a bad design. Nothing wrong with manual door handles imo.

CafecitoHippo ,

They have one on the inside but not the outside. That’s why the mom couldn’t get into the vehicle or the firefighters and they had to take an axe to the window. How are you supposed to pop the hood to jump start your car if the battery is dead and you can’t get in the car because the battery is dead? It’s just a stupid design to not have a manual override.

areyouevenreal ,

I believe they also have a jump port for exactly that purpose. If that doesn’t work you are stuffed though, as I believe has happened to some cyber truck owners.

T156 ,

The toddler was strapped into the seat at the time, so chances are that they would not be able to find and open the door that way anyhow.

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/05d8fd64-ca80-432d-b01b-fede944c812d.jpeg

True, a toddler wouldn’t think to look directly on the door handle. Not really the type of place you’d expect to find a door release you know /s

There is a lot of reasons to hate elon, and there is a lot of reasons to hate tesla. But it really pisses me off when people just make these circle jerk hate threads based on something they didn’t even spend half a second Googling. It just makes all the legitimate issues easier for people to blow off

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

rooster_butt ,

You keep replying with this shit to every comment. How do you expect a toddler in a child seat to use that lever? Mind you I do not close car doors with my kids inside due to my own paranoia of losing the keys or something, but it’s a horrible design flaw that you can’t open the car from outside when the 12v battery is dead.

LordKitsuna ,

If the toddler is locked into their seat they likely aren’t opening any door regardless. This Is Us ignoring the fact that most rear doors have a child lock button that is usually activated at least most parents I’ve seen with toddlers generally activate that button.

There are so many legitimate things to complain about here I’m just annoyed by people basically saying wow how does it not have a manual release, or why is it hidden. When it’s not.

The real problem here is the lack of any external manual release. Obviously it would still need to somehow be locked with a key that is not electronic, but there should still be some type of manual release even if it’s on the bottom trim of the door for the sake of your Aesthetics or whatever. The complete and utter lack of any external manual release is the problem here but nobody is talking about that and is instead just making shit up about how there is no manual release for the inside, or it’s hidden, or difficult to use, I’m just tired of people making shit up.

areyouevenreal ,

That’s fine for opening the front doors in the model 3, but have you seen how to open the rear doors in the cyber truck? That’s what I was referring too.

tesla.com/…/GUID-903C82F8-8F52-450C-82A8-B9B4B34C…

LordKitsuna ,

The rear is under a cover, I will agree that that is dumb it should be in the same place as the front. Or if the goal was to avoid children randomly pulling it while going down the road at the very least it shouldn’t be covered and just in the little pocket cubby thing. That’s a valid complaint, although at the end of the day even with a normal car a toddler who was in their seat would likely be screwed as the child lock would most likely be activated.

The real issue here is a lack of any external manual release, wouldn’t be that difficult to put one along the bottom side trim of the door. This would allow you to both give it a keyhole and have it out of the way aesthetically. I’d say just put a manual handle on myself, but if you absolutely must have completely smooth the hidden handle door at the very least make sure there’s an external one somewhere for manual release

TeenieBopper ,

Have we gotten that stupid?

Something something “these regulations are written in blood” anecdote something something.

Blackmist ,

You’d think so, but who do you think pays huge sums of money every year to be allowed to sell death traps to the public?

TacticsConsort ,
@TacticsConsort@yiffit.net avatar

Fun fact, a Tesla spokesperson describing the car’s features was talking about how they wanted something on the car that didn’t make it to final release and said “But sadly we couldn’t get that law changed”, which does… kind of imply that they lobbied the regulatory bodies into allowing this piece of shit to exist.

cRazi_man ,

Every eventuality can’t be covered by regulation. Sometimes you realise something can go disastrously wrong after someone is hurt. I wouldn’t be surprised if this never happened to other mechanical cars to never need regulation. Sometimes you need to wait for a stupid product to exist for someone to make a rule saying “stupid products shouldn’t exist”.

skysurfer ,

Yeah, Tesla is certainly not the first ones to have this design or issues with it:

Texas man, dog die after being trapped in Corvette

nutsack ,

it’s really smart to have non-mechanical mechanical parts for things like a door

PlutoParty ,

What is a non-mechanical mechanical part?

Entropywins ,

It’s the opposite of a mechanical non-mechanical part geeze…

sugar_in_your_tea ,

So, the opposite of an abacus as a replacement for an ALU?

StaySquared ,

You mean, non-electrical… not non-mechanical.

Buddahriffic ,

With sarcasm, one might say that it is desirable to have obviously undesirable thing. Your interpretation is one way, but I think they really meant “stupid” instead of “smart”.

KamikazeRusher ,

I was talking to a Tesla owner about this and they argued that if the window is electric then there’s no difference making the door electric. They couldn’t understand that the door itself can be operated independently of the rest of the vehicle.

Making windows electric causes a safety tradeoff. You get ease of operation while losing the ability to open the window in the event of an accident (where power cannot be supplied). However you can still unlock and open the door manually as an alternative escape option. This also applies in non-accident scenarios (dead battery).

Making doors electric is nothing more than a safety risk. From the inside you might have access to a manual release latch, but some doors require you to unscrew things first. Any emergency situation where you need to exit as soon as possible and the power is lost almost guarantees that you’ll be unable to safely escape.

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/12fbeae1-b3c6-44db-b207-534009238641.jpeg

Nothing about it is hidden, obfuscated, or even in a weird spot. It’s literally right on the fucking door handle. There’s a lot of reasons to hate elon, and there’s a lot of reasons to hate tesla. Let’s stick to the legitimate ones instead of making shit up, it just weakens the arguments for the actual issues

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

KamikazeRusher ,

Ok. So that’s the Model 3.

How about the Model Y?

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/2fe2aa7f-b081-4edd-ba3b-b111652a426a.jpeg

Ok. Not all Model Ys have rear manual releases. I’ll assume the best and believe that only certain countries have this design.

How about the Model X?

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/977fc698-90fe-45c5-88d1-d7f172dde8b2.jpeg

So it’s behind the speaker grille. Uncertain if you need a screwdriver, but I’ll assume not. However it is hidden away from sight.

How about the Model S?

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/f2130d16-c416-46ae-a6c8-9b02c8c378d9.png

Oh, it’s under the carpet.

So yeah, turns out, I’m not making shit up, and there is indeed empirical evidence for it.

LordKitsuna ,

You know what that’s entirely fair, looks like the M3 is the only not braindead design one then. I wouldn’t touch anything other than an M3 then personally (if i was going to use a tesla at all)

KamikazeRusher ,

Cybertruck also has manual releases but the rear doors hold it in the map pocket. Better but still not in a sensible place when someone is panicking.

whs ,

OP posted a photo of the front door release and you posted the rear door release which should be intentionally hidden. The front door release in all models are as OP posted.

The latest Model 3 also hides the rear door release. Often you’ll have guests sit in the rear and they’re used to pulling something to open the door. So they pull the manual release and damage the frameless window.

KamikazeRusher ,

I’m going to upvote you for providing the viewpoint that models which have the manual releases hide them to prevent damage occurring from someone who instinctively pull on it to open the door. In the case of young children, they won’t know enough to not do the same thing they would do in other vehicles to open the door.

However, obscuring them from view also means they’re at high risk in the event of an accident which kills the power. Trying to calmly walk a child through the steps may not work. I don’t know how much force is needed for some of the release latches (and I’ll assume not a lot is required).

madcaesar ,

You need to fully edit your comment and remove the part defending this nonsense.

DogWater ,

These cars all have manual backups.

The question is how easy is it to use?

piyuv ,

Lets ask the dead billionaire

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/22952c59-e1aa-42b2-a7de-e6656fd75f08.jpeg

She died of stupid, the release is literally right on the door. It’s not hidden, obfuscated, covered, or in any way shape or form difficult to use. Just another idiot that didn’t bother learning what all the controls on their new card did.

That being said, even with a manual release they most likely would have died anyway. As once your car is in the water unless you’re able to open the door basically instantaneously upon hitting the water you’re going to find that the door is impossible to open as the weight of the water will prevent it until such time as the car has filled with water to equalize the pressure. Generally speaking people that survive cars falling into water were able to get the window open, or just break it entirely. The door is almost never the Escape Route as it will not allow itself to be opened due to the difference in pressure

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

piyuv ,

Was going to tell you that she didn’t die in a model 3 but you found out yourself!

LordKitsuna , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/22952c59-e1aa-42b2-a7de-e6656fd75f08.jpeg

Only takes about a half second Google search to find out, it’s literally a handle right on the door. Just above the window switches. It’s not hidden, obfuscated, covered, or even in a weird spot

Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

Adanisi ,
@Adanisi@lemmy.zip avatar

It was a fucking toddler trapped in the car you moron.

It couldn’t be opened manually from the outside.

LordKitsuna ,

Yes i agree the lack of external manual release is a problem. Wouldn’t be hard to put one on the underside of the door frame if it truly must be hidden. Their external door solution appears to be the jumping port in the frunk to get the 12v system alive again. Which is obviously a shit solution.

dinckelman ,

There should really be a law, requiring a certain list of mechanical things to exist on the car. So far, it’s only the emergency turn signals, and what, the mirrors? The door handles absolutely need to be on that list

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

At least one door should open via a mechanical key and mechanical handle from the outside, and I firmly believe the internal door handles should all function mechanically as well. There shouldn’t be “usually you use a button but in an emergency this thing that looks like a bit of trim is the actual mechanical handle” that shouldn’t be allowable by code.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I saw a clip on Just Rolled In where a lady in a Lexus thought she was trapped in her car when the electrics failed, as did the firefighters who broke her window, despite there being manual releases on both the inside and the outside of the car.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

I spent enough time in aviation to know how much drilling it actually takes to teach people emergency procedures. If it’s different than what they usually do, it takes hours of practice. Even something as simple as finding and pulling a different door latch. If you’re stressed, even as stressed as “the doors won’t open the way I’m used to them otherwise everything is okay” your brain will just fail to pivot to the alternate procedures.

Cars got so simple to use in the 90’s. Sure they were simpler machines in the 60’s but fuel injection eliminated chokes and other carburetor issues, automatic transmissions became ubiquitous, children can handle vehicles of this complexity. And now we’re making them more complicated for no actual reason, with electric door latches with manual backups and such, and it’s causing problems.

Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

I agree, the main handle you use on the interior and exterior of the vehicle should be PHYSICALLY connected to the latch. Seems like a pretty simple rule to make and enforce and seems pretty common sense.

I have a 61 f100 with shaved doors that only opens electronically from the outside with a fob, but I didn’t build it to be a grocery getter with my wife and kids in it. I know the risks. And the hood opens without having to get into the cab so I can easily access the battery if it’s dead.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, My volt battery is in the floor of the trunk. If the battery on the volt dies you can’t open the trunk easily. Physical locks in the doors are no problem but they didn’t put a keyhole on the damn trunk.

You can pop the hood and access the jump terminals and then pop the trunk. You can also crawl into the back hatch from inside pull a panel off and pop the trunk.

ForgottenFlux OP ,

According to a report from Arizona’s Family:

The 12-volt battery that powers the car’s electronics died without warning.

Tesla drivers are supposed to receive three warnings before that happens, but the Tesla service department confirmed that Sanchez didn’t receive any warnings.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Lead acid batteries are notoriously hard to predict when they will fail. Other OEMs also fail at this often.

Tesla upgraded to lithium 12V batts some time ago, which are much more predictable and last 2-3x longer.

AbidanYre ,

What other oem hides the mechanical latch?

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

What makes you think I was referring to the latch?

AbidanYre ,

You said other manufacturers fail at “this” referring to the 12v battery dying, but the context here is a child being trapped in a car when that battery fails. If the 12v battery fails on any other car you simply pull the handle and the door opens.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

I was referring specifically to the failure to detect a dying 12V battery.

AbidanYre , (edited )

Ok fine, what other manufacturer traps someone inside when the battery fails?

You mentioned the hidden latch on another thread. Should I bring my question over there instead? I may conflated two discussions because you’re up and down this post defending Tesla’s boneheaded decisions.

Kecessa ,

“Should I bring my question over there instead?”

That’s usually what people do so conversations can actually be followed and come in a logical order…

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Ok fine, what other manufacturer traps someone inside when the battery fails?

I don’t know. I don’t understand why you’re asking me this.

you’re up and down this post defending Tesla’s boneheaded decisions.

I have been both both critical and supportive of Tesla, depending on the topic of discussion. It’s called being objective.

AbidanYre , (edited )

I don’t know. I don’t understand why you’re asking me this.

Because this article is about someone being trapped in a car when the battery died, and saying “it’s hard to tell when a battery is going to fail” skips over the fundamental problem of being unable to open the door when that happens.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

It’s not “skipping over” anything. I was not commenting on the door latches. I was commenting on a specific failure to do with the battery exclusively. I commented elsewhere that the latches a terrible and stupid design. Every car should have mechanical door latches, inside and out. If for no other reason than simplicity and reliability.

ColeSloth ,

What? No they aren’t. They almost always fail on a curve of power and voltage loss.

Also, I didn’t look it up, but I’d be very surprised if the model Y tesla didn’t require (suggest and oem?) an AGM battery. It’s still lead, but due to how they’re made they can’t get a dead short in them like older regular lead acid batteries can once they get old, although it still isn’t very common for it to happen.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Yes they are. I used to test them for a living. It’s just a best guess.

ColeSloth ,

No they aren’t. They degrade before they fail. If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.

Testing if batteries are good or bad does not qualify a person to chart out battery degradation.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

No they aren’t.

Yes. They are. If they weren’t, no one would have these problems. But they all do. I know everyone likes to pour over them with a microscope and drool over their flaws because they’re Tesla, but many of the issues commonly attributed to them are common with all other OEMs, you just have a bunch of armchair engineers who don’t know WTF they’re talking about.

They degrade before they fail.

No shit

If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.

Once again, I did this for a living, for a decade. We would constantly have cars with failed batteries, we would bring them in, charge them up, test them, they would pass, we’d send them on their way, and they would fail again, and come back for replacement. Our load tests also tested the alternator.

I worked on BMWs for years and they would regularly come in with the same problem, with no warning, even though they had a similar detection algorithm that mostly worked.

ColeSloth ,

Once again, I did this for a living, for a decade. We would constantly have cars with failed batteries, we would bring them in, charge them up, test them, they would pass, we’d send them on their way, and they would fail again

I also test batteries and this just looks like you all didn’t test them well. Like you skipped the capacity test because it takes being hooked up for a long time instead of the test that takes 20 seconds to do.

explodicle ,

Even if she did receive warnings, she’s a grandmother who easily could miss one of the many messages on the car. It’s just bad design.

MoistCircuits0698 ,

This is why I bought an EV with mechanical doors.

StaySquared ,

Did the batter die from extreme heat or due to the driver failing to charge the vehicle promptly?

T156 ,

Wrong battery. You’re thinking the high-voltage EV battery, but in this case, it was the 12V lead-acid accessory battery that died. Normally, that would be charged from the high voltage battery, if the car was running.

In this case, it might just have been bad luck with a worn-out battery.

StaySquared ,

Damn… thanks for the explanation!

ramenshaman ,

Really interesting design decision. Was the main battery also dead? I’m guessing not. There’s a step-down converter under the rear seat that outputs 12-16 volts, Tesla could probably have fairly easily set the car up to power the doors from that when the auxiliary 12V battery dies.

Venator ,

Probably would still need the 12V battery to have enough charge to close the connection to the high voltage battery that would power the step down converter.

But yeah it seems dumb to me that most EVs don’t keep the 12V battery topped up from the high voltage battery somehow while the car is parked, but I’m not an electrical engineer ¯_(ツ)_/¯

frezik ,

There really shouldn’t need to be a 12V battery at all. Stepping the voltage down isn’t that complicated, but the supply chain for the necessary parts aren’t there for the car industry.

Plus, it’d be really nice if everything could run off a 48V line instead of 12V. The wires can be thinner due to less current draw. Getting that to work across all the electronics for everything is a whole separate level, though.

Venator ,

There really shouldn’t need to be a 12V battery at all

I think it’s mainly there just to be able to control the circuit that cuts power to the high voltage battery off while the car is parked for safety reasons.

histic ,

You don’t want to fully drain the main battery as it would do severe damage to it and most of the 12v system has a phantom draw of power so to keep the main battery from running out they have a separate one

frezik ,

Compared to what the main batt can provide, there’s barely any draw from the other electronics.

histic ,

That’s not the point the fact is that there is some dumbass that probably will let it sit at 0% and kill the battery

frezik ,

Battery management electronics don’t let you drain lithium batteries to 0%. It’s a severe design flaw if it does.

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