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New Anti-Consumer MacBook Pros - Teardown And Repair Assessment - Apple Silicon M1/M2

No surprises here. Just like the lockdown on iPhone screen and part replacements, Macbooks suffer from the same Apple’s anti-repair and anti-consumer bullshit. Battery glued, ssd soldered in and can’t even swap parts with other official parts. 6000$ laptop and you don’t even own it.

beefbaby182 ,
@beefbaby182@lemmy.thesanewriter.com avatar

laughs in my 2009-era Intel MPB

qyron ,

Considering the serious move EU as made regarding right to repair and imposing that any equipment must be repairable and have parts for it for at least 10 years, this ia going to be another serious pain for this brand.

I’ve also read an article recently where it was reported that all cell phones circulating in the EU must have replaceable batteries. And from what I took from the article it was meant replaceable by the end user.

Serious anti obsolescence legislation.

This will hurt Apple again.

afa ,

10? That’s one way to discourage competition from new companies.

qyron ,

How is that?

As it is, that same argument was used by Apple to try to dodge from complying with the demand for having an industry standard for data and charge port/cable - the USB-C.

Planned obsolescence is a thing. Having law put in place to curb it is a good thing.

If you know you can buy something and you know that something will be repairable at least for a decade, it passes confidence to the end user.

Competition is welcome. Innovation as well. Legislation like this just means companies need to share standards and cooperate more and not aim to skin the client in an endless cycle of replacing expensive items that get thrown out before they are worn out.

jazzkat ,

I just recently had a 2020 gen MacBook pro die on me. When I took it to the genius bar, they said that it was a power issue that they couldn’t repair unless they changed the whole logic board which would cost me $500 and without the ability to recover the data on the soldered SSD. What’s worse is that they sent me to a 3rd party data recovery company to recover my data for $1200. I ended up declining the data recovery and just accepted that my data is gone and bought a thinkpad to replace the laptop.

Ragerist ,
@Ragerist@lemmy.world avatar

You may want to check out these two videos.

youtu.be/OVZTBhVV5tI

youtu.be/0qbrLiGY4Cg

dwaan ,

Playing devil advocate here. I owned second hand entry level first-gen MacBook Pro Retina that I bought in 2014. Still using it as my main laptop up until 2021 when I gave it to my nieces. On paper, It doesn’t have good repairability so-so specs, everything glued also, but it still working very well, battery still can last more than 4 hours, every apps still run reasonably smooth and dare I said fast.

On the other hand, my spouse bought a brand new ZenBook a year later, it has a bit better repairability, battery and ram are “easily” replaceable, and it have better specs, but the battery dies 3 years ago. Even when the battery still alive, the laptop is very unoptimized causing the fan ran all the time, consuming more electricity, and over time it becomes very sluggish. So now, it’s been hiding under closet now since maybe 4 years ago.

So I asked, what the use of repairability if at the end the component break easily. Sure you can replace it, but it just going to create more trash at the end. It’s also unoptimized so it use more energy. I take one hardened optimized laptop that can last longer versus one that can be user repairable easily but unoptimized, energy hungry, and easily break component.

Ninja9p5 ,

The issue lies in assuming that repairable laptops cannot be optimized to the same extent as MacBooks. However, this assumption is inaccurate. While there might have been a problem with your Asus ZenBook, I can assure you that if you were to select a Windows laptop priced similarly to a MacBook, you would find a comparable level of optimization. Additionally, there’s the added benefit that you can swap out the battery when it starts going bad and upgrade the RAM and storage if you need to in the future

echodot ,

So you’re drawing the conclusion that a more repairable device is inherently going to be worse than a less repairable device but that’s not true.

A sample size of two is hardly statistically relevant. Especially because you’re completely discounting the possibility that you were unusually lucky with your Mac or unusually unlucky with the Zenbook.

Gluing the battery in, in no way makes it last longer. The biggest problem here seems to be that the fan profile is not optimised, but that won’t have a significant effect on the battery because while it increases charge discharge cycles, it doesn’t increase them by that much. You probably just had a dud battery.

jimmydoreisalefty ,

Awesome!

Always like people that fight for right to repair!

Anyone know if Louis Rossman and these and other people have done collabs or something similar?

Louis Anthony Rossmann (born November 19, 1988) [2] [3] is an American independent repair technician, YouTuber, and right to repair activist. He is the owner and operator of Rossmann Repair Group in Austin, Texas (formerly New York City ), a computer repair shop established in 2007 which specializes in logic board-level repair of MacBooks.

Nurgle ,

Did anyone actually watch the video? Like I’m sure as shit not, but wondering if anyone else did. Guessing no scrolling through the comments.

scottywh ,

How about if normalized not fucking linking YouTube videos for topics that seem like news?

I will read an article but I’m not going to click through and watch some random ass length video from some random ass “content creator” who probably has a worthless opinion to begin with.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yup. I’m subbed to the handful I find worthwhile, so just give me text for the rest.

Nurgle ,

Amen. I don’t even want to watch a news video over an article let alone some rando 18min YouTube video.

scottywh ,

100%

Pure garbage… Won’t even usually click it if I notice.

doom_and_gloom , (edited )
@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    echodot ,

    Also I’m not going to always be in a position where I can just have my phone start playing video with audio. And I’m not going to get my headphones out of my bag just so I can listen to a video that I probably am not actually that interested in.

    I wish people would just post synopses.

    mechoman444 ,

    I’m going to put this out there as just an idea, don’t buy apple products.

    They’re shit they’ve always been shit and they’ve never been financially worth buying.

    Zeroxxx ,

    Say that to Muricans and 90% of iPhone ownership.

    kylemsguy ,

    iPhones tend to be more affordable in the US than in other places in the world. An iPhone SE is only $400, and used iPhones aren't that expensive.

    Blimp7990 ,

    oooh, only $400 for a low-end phone with poor battery life? sign mee uppp

    kylemsguy ,

    I'd say $400 (minus whatever subsidies from your carrier) is the minimum I'd spend on a new smartphone. Could also get an iPhone 12 or something for a bit more.

    Point is, iPhones are more affordable than people claim they are, especially in the US. Can't speak for other places where they might be marked up or have high import tax.

    InternetCitizen2 ,

    As much as I do like the looks and compelling as the M1/M2 chips might be, I cannot help but agree.

    catfish ,

    I just got an M2 MBP. In my personal experience it is very much not “shit”.

    Expensive and a PITA to fix? Quite possibly.

    frostwhitewolf ,

    +1 apple products are very much not shit. Otherwise people wouldnt buy and use them as prolifically as they do.

    I started using Macbooks because the user experience on windows laptops sucks in comparison.

    Blimp7990 ,

    so you’re saying windows laptops are better because they have better market share?

    it def sounds like you’re saying that

    except im pretty sure you would disagree with that, so i think, mayhaps, your argument is deeply flawed.

    CorruptBuddha ,

    What kind of user experience issues are you facing on windows?

    jimrob4 ,

    wildly gestures at everything

    SuperSpecialNickname ,

    Always speaking of bad experience using Windows, but never explaining it.

    areyouevenreal ,

    They replied and explained it. Try again mate.

    SuperSpecialNickname ,

    Yeah, a different person after I made my comment speaking from anecdotal experience.

    areyouevenreal ,

    Yeah, a different person after I made my comment speaking from anecdotal experience.

    Yeah my bad

    legion02 ,

    Let’s start with sleep mode not actually sleeping about 50% of the time and turning my backpack into an oven and killing the battery whenever it does?

    I wish Mac laptops were crap but they function so much better than windows laptops in so many little ways I find myself having a hard time justifying fighting windows laptops anymore.

    lud ,

    Modern standby fucking sucks, luckily my laptop is from before that existed (and it runs linux but that’s besides the point)

    areyouevenreal ,

    Amen to this. I have to deal with it on my Zephyrus M16 which has shit battery life to begin with.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @legion02 @CorruptBuddha, don't blame laptops, blame Windows. The difference between PC/laptops and Mac is compatibility, to use any OS you want, Mac is only compatible with Mac, apart from costing twice as much as a PC/Laptop with equivalent system performance and features.

    legion02 ,

    Does it matter who’s at fault? The end result is the same, a dangerously hot laptop. Even though I’m a huge Linux advocate it’s not an option for work reasons.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @legion02; ????, not even using Windows my laptop (a cheap one that cost me €350) heats up above 50º when I play a 3D FPS game or when I render to an Image. If it gets too hot it can depend on too many things, that your Sys Specs are too low, that the ventilation does not work well because it is dirty, that the thermal paste needs to be renewed, there are too many applications that are loaded at boot that take up too much RAM.....
    In any case, it is not normal and requires you to check it.

    legion02 ,

    You’re entirely missing the point. It overheats because I put it in a bag when it’s supposed to be asleep. But it’s not actually sleep because microsoft and the laptop manufacturers designed modern sleep in a way that makes that non-deterministic. So now my laptop is awake inside the bag it normally sleeps in, killing the battery and making the laptop uncomfortably hot.

    Watch the ltt video (yeah bad timing referencing ltt) “Microsoft is forcing me to buy macbooks” and you’ll understand the problem I’m describing.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @legion02, I dont use sleep, I shut down the system, more if I put it in a bag to carry it to an other site. It's logical that the system still in Standby also need ventilation.
    With modern systems with an SSD a Cold start is only a few seconds slower than to start from Sleep mode, because of this the last mode isnt really necessary, apart a cold start from power off avoid a lot of crap in memory and reset the counter of using time to zero, save battery and is healthier for the system.

    legion02 ,

    It’s great that those considerations work for how you use a laptop, but that’s not how me or my colleagues or family members expect them to work.

    Sleep should work the way it’s advertised and does work on Macs. The only significant voltage drain should be the memory modules that need it to maintain state. It used to work this way on windows and Linux for that matter.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @legion02, and it usually does on Windows and Linux as well, and it shouldn't be a warm-up reason. But if it is put in a bag that prevents ventilation, even a weak voltage can heat up the Laptop. The same if it is used for example, which I see sometimes, to use it on top of a cushion or on the knees, because this covers the ventilation slits, the same also if they are covered by dust.
    In any case, something is wrong if the Laptop gets hot, except in heavy use, eg in gaming or similar.

    legion02 ,

    Yes, the thing that’s wrong is windows modern standby.

    kylemsguy ,

    No, it doesn't make sense that a system in sandby would need ventilation. The power draw is very low (not enough to need cooling).

    The issue isn't that it's heating up in standby, the issue is that the system wakes from sleep for no reason within the bag.

    This did happen to a lesser extent with the older, slower sleep method (S3 sleep), but recent Intel chips and UEFI firmwares have disabled this.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @kylemsguy @pizzahoe @mechoman444 @catfish @frostwhitewolf @CorruptBuddha @legion02, maybe, it is clear that the standby power is very low, depending on the active modules, and that it does not need much cooling.
    Although in a closed space with the ventilation slits covered, it is possible that heat can accumulate. Normally for the laptop to wake up from standby requires a clear intervention, such as pressing a key or opening the screen, not very likely when in a case

    kylemsguy ,

    That's the entire issue. Windows laptops with modern standby will wake from sleep without user intervention. It's a bug that still hasn't been fixed.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @kylemsguy @pizzahoe @mechoman444 @catfish @frostwhitewolf @CorruptBuddha @legion02, the only cause may be that some process is still running. In Windows quite possible with so many telemetry and threads of some stupid services, which causes so many new words that you invent to disable them on a new PC.

    kylemsguy ,

    If the default configuration causes random wakeups that drain the battery while it's in my bag, then it's a bug in the OS. This should never happen.

    Catweazle ,
    @Catweazle@vivaldi.net avatar

    @kylemsguy @pizzahoe @catfish @frostwhitewolf @CorruptBuddha @legion02,It sure is a bug if the system wakes up without user intervention, this shouldn't happen.
    But I think that the cause is that some service remains active, this would explain that the system wakes up but also the heating.
    Therefore, while MS does not fix this, it would be advisable to shut down the system to avoid this. This, if you use an SSD is not such a big difference to boot it.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    IDK, I’ve had exactly the same problem with my work MBP. I was late to something and the computer locked up, so as soon as I got some level of control I put it to sleep and it seemed to sleep. An hour later and the fan was going crazy and it was super hot.

    It doesn’t happen a lot, but macOS isn’t immune to stupid issues like that. I’ve had far more hard crashes with macOS than I have with Linux.

    Tristan ,

    Agreed. I work in computer simulations and their great. CPU is crazy fast, stays cool and silent. Battery life is solid.

    Blackmist ,

    The EU needs to fuck their shit up.

    Mandate that laptops must have user replaceable storage and RAM (and tablets to have user replaceable storage). My old Dell laptop has windows in the bottom to get to both of those.

    The loss of 3.5mm headphone jacks is nothing compared to the loss of that. They’re common failure points and easy upgrade paths.

    areyouevenreal , (edited )

    Upgradable RAM isn’t as fast as non-upgradable RAM and that this is especially true for the way Apple Silicon is designed. So no we shouldn’t be mandating something that reduces computer performance for the sake of an upgrade most people would never care to perform.

    We should however force them to produce laptops with a certain minimum RAM and to reduce their ridiculous upgrade pricing.

    Edit: also I don’t own a single Apple product. I aren’t a fan boy at all and I know they do a whole bunch of anti-consumer bs. I also know that modular RAM for Apple Silicon would be a terrible idea for that specific design. Modular SSDs on the other hand would be very doable.

    maynarkh ,

    Upgradable RAM isn’t as fast as non-upgradable RAM

    Really? Why though? Is soldered-in RAM attached differently to the CPU?

    areyouevenreal ,

    Erm yeah. Have you never seen an M1 chip? It’s on the same substrate.

    peterj74 ,

    This is an argument that just gets repeted. My question is this, is a macbook faster than a gaming pc? Because that has replaceble ram, cpu, gpu, ssd, etc. If yes, then please seek help.

    Blackmist ,

    The PC GPU does have it’s own soldered RAM. But then the performance of a good GPU goes way past that of a MacBook, which while good for integrated graphics, is still only on par with a GTX 1660, a four year old budget GPU.

    areyouevenreal ,

    Well fucking said dude. You know dGPUs used go have upgradable RAM? They removed it because it dosen’t work for that application. Apples iGPUs struggle to compete even being soldered partly because the competition is using GDDR and they aren’t. Not soldering would make them even further behind.

    peterj74 ,

    I guess in a way they are stuck to a form factor, as slim as possible. And they got stuck so they had to do something. But then why would they make everything locked to the system by hardware id. It just seems that they used the speed argument to justify anti consumer pactices.

    areyouevenreal ,

    But then why would they make everything locked to the system by hardware id. It just seems that they used the speed argument to justify anti consumer pactices.

    Yeah they locked it because they are anti-consumer. Soldered RAM has actual benefits, that’s why they aren’t the only company doing it. Two very different issues. It’s like them soldering in SSDs is anti-consumer because there is little benefit there and only a few companies are copying them.

    Speed is not “just an excuse” either. This design is dependant on having RAM that fast, it’s faster than any other laptop that I have seen for a good reason. It also improves battery and reduces size.

    TechnoBabble ,

    Way differently.

    Soldered RAM is much much closer to the CPU, and so the time it takes for signals to propagate back and forth is significantly reduced…

    Aceticon ,

    It’s probably the increased capacitance (think of of it as a puddle that needs filling before the water can move beyond it) of a mechanical connnection system vs direct soldering that makes most of the difference.

    I was going to call you out on the distance thing but I made the maths and indeed at 100GHz light only travels about 3mm between waves and electric signal propagation on a line is roughly lightspeed (if you disregard capacitance) so even though this memory bus is likely not working at 100GHz to get 100GB/s (it’s actually using paralellism for increase bits per cycle) it is none the less already within clock speed ranges were distances of centimeters do mater.

    That said keep in mind that rountrip propagation only really maters at the very biginning of the download of a memory block as that when the address goes down and the data starts coming back and the roundtrip propagation affects the delay between them.

    But yeah, I can see how you would start worrying with centimeter and even millimiter distances when trying to extract a bit more performance from data exchanges at these clock speeds.

    kylemsguy ,

    The M1 design is very similar to the SoC in your phone. The RAM is literally soldered on top of the CPU.

    Blackmist ,

    A quick look at the claims suggest 100GB/s is the RAM speed for the M2 Macbooks.

    A single DDR5 RAM stick is about 50GB/s. So that’s two of those in a dual channel config (effectively quad channel since each DDR5 stick is now a dual channel on it’s own).

    There’s a good argument for introducing a new smaller DDR5 module so size isn’t an issue, but I’m not sold on speed being the main problem. RAM is fast even when it’s slow, and having more of it is almost always better than having it faster. No amount of RAM speed will ever compensate for swapping to storage when you run out.

    At the very least mandate that the manufacturer replace the RAM at a reasonable cost at a later date, if you need more for future apps or if it goes wrong. We go on and on about fighting eWaste, yet entire laptops go in the bin when they don’t have enough RAM.

    areyouevenreal ,

    Go look at the RAM speed of the M2 Pro and M2 Max. They are essentially quad and eight channels respectively to get the speed they achieve. Good look doing that with SODIMM modules.

    Actually good RAM speed is absolutely essential for GPU performance. Saying how more RAM speed isn’t important for a use case like the Apple Silicon Macs is ignorant AF.

    TechnoBabble ,

    You’re getting heavily downvoted by people who obviously don’t understand how RAM works. Or how computers work?

    Guys, Apple is shitty, we all know this, but onboard RAM is the least of their anti-consumer practices.

    The problem with socketed RAM is the length of the traces going back to the CPU. That 100% reduces performance (and battery life) by a significant amount. Especially when using that socketed RAM as iGPU VRAM.

    Dell’s CAMM standard reduces the latency compared to SODIMM, for socketed RAM, but what we really need is for someone like Apple to invest R&D into really tiny RAM sockets that are super close to the CPU, instead of researching ways to lock users out.

    areyouevenreal ,

    Thanks a bunch. The level of ignorance here to Apple’s design choices is palpable. Some of the stuff they do is very anti-consumer. Soldered RAM isn’t one of them - at least on Apple Silicon. Having modular GPU RAM hasn’t been a thing for over a decade for good reasons.

    Blackmist ,

    Doesn’t even sound that complex. Little LGA style socket, tiny heatsink clip to hold it in place.

    There’s even laptops that have soldered RAM and a SODIMM slot. Could you limit the GPU to using the soldered RAM? Still won’t help you if it develops a fault though.

    areyouevenreal ,

    The RAM is built onto the substrate. Every contact you add increases signal degredation. Plus actually trying to fit eight sockets on a SoC package would be a complete nightmare.

    Dividing RAM like that into two pools would violate the permise of the whole unified memory system. You’re really asking for the wrong thing here. Why not convinve them to do something like a modular SSD that’s far more achievable? Also memory that doesn’t come at sky high prices with an actual sensible mimimum (8GB on MacBooks in 2023, really?).

    For other laptops there is actually a solution to this problem called a CAMM. It would even work for the M2 Macbooks possibly (not the M2 Pro or Max) if apple are willing to sacrifice size or battery life of the laptop. The reason this wouldn’t work for the M2 Pro and Max is you would need two or four of these things. It would be diffcult enough to fit just one in a Macbook that have tiny, tiny logic boards to begin with.

    rastilin ,

    I doubt the difference in performance is that significant. If it was 50% faster then sure. But odds are it's something like 3% speed difference. Same for the storage, I doubt that apple's proprietary interface is that much faster than a regular high quality nvme, definitely not enough to justify the multiple that they're charging for it compared to an off-the-shelf nvme.

    areyouevenreal ,

    Erm yeah it’s more than 50% faster in bandwidth for M2 Max, because it has more memory channels than two SODIMMs would allow for. It’s specifically at least twice as fast. People upvoting this are showing their ignorance here about Apple hardware.

    The storage isn’t particularly fast so that part I believe.

    aport ,

    Nobody is stopping you from buying a laptop with user replaceable storage and RAM. Why do you need the EU to get involved? That’s ridiculous.

    kylemsguy ,

    Companies are slowly moving in that direction, except doing it worse in most cases (i.e. cheaply)

    noodle ,
    @noodle@feddit.uk avatar

    They are a lifestyle brand and play on that to keep people trapped. People who buy Apple like the aesthetic of appearing wealthy. It’s classism through consumerism, even if the consumers don’t realise it.

    Apple’s terrible privacy policy (yes, despite the word privacy appearing in the ads), atrocious right to repair stance, and aggressive software lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.

    There was a purpose to buying Apple when they were the only player in the specific niche. Audio engineering is a great example of this. In the 90’s, Apple were really the only valid choice in a highly specialist field. Microsoft caught up in the 2000s, with Linux not too far behind in the 2010’s.

    So nowadays, the limitations are effectively self-imposed. You can spend whatever money you want on a setup that will do whatever you need and the OS is a personal preference.

    lud ,

    I don’t like Apple very much but it would be stupid to not admit that their new M1 and M2 SOCs aren’t great. Their battery efficiency far surpasses any from Intel or AMD and the performance is great.

    I think MacOS looks stupid though, I mean, it looks like fucking Gnome.

    I assume most people that buy Macs and iphones do it for their software and hardware, not because they want to appear wealthy. Like you said OS is a personal preference and some prefer MacOS and iOS.

    …lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.

    Unfortunately most people don’t care.

    cyberwolfie , 
    
<span style="color:#323232;">…lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.
</span>

    Unfortunately most people don’t care.

    And once you are locked-in, the barrier to get yourself out of it is often so high that it dissuades most people from even trying to get out. I moved from macOS to Linux last year, and even though I was only using a small portion of the Apple ecosystem (iCloud was the only thing I believe), it still took a lot of time as they are designed to make it difficult/time consuming to migrate. Not to mention the macOS/iOS only applications you might’ve ended up using, as cross-platform functionality was not top-of-mind when choosing. In my case, the notes app Bear was such an example.

    kool_newt ,

    Better: frame.work

    echodot ,

    If I bought a framework laptop I would not physically be able to stop fiddling with it. I think I may end up spending more money in the long run. It’s too configurable for its own good.

    I wonder if they’ll ever consider adding an e ink screen option, with a separate normal screen. There have been a few concept laptops like that, but I don’t think the demand is enough to actually make that profitable, but if it was just a configuration option of an otherwise more normal laptop, then I could see it being viable.

    ChucklesMacLeroy ,

    That’s sweet. Do you have one?

    kool_newt ,

    Not yet!

    !framework

    kylemsguy ,

    I've got a framework 13. It's not better than a Macbook except in terms of user-serviceability.

    • It's hot and loud (hopefully the AMD upgrade will fix this)
    • Battery life is atrocious (hoping AMD and battery upgrade will fix this)
    • Trackpad isn't as good (piano hinge, and the coating has more friction.)
    • fewer ports(!) (limited to 4 expansion cards)
    • sleep is broken (modern standby, ugh. S3 exists on the 11th gen model but it's no better than s2idle. I'll have to see if the AMD one is any better)
    • Keyboard has bigger keys than I'd like, and while the key feel is pretty nice, it's also heaver than any macbook I've used. Also, the layout is standard laptop garbage. The only reason the layout works on a macbook is because of macos's shortcuts. On a PC I want a full PC keyboard like we had on 2011 ThinkPads.

    That said, I do really like the laptop. I just find myself reaching for my macbook especially due to the issue with battery life.

    kool_newt ,

    Ya maybe, but it’s not an Apple product and that alone makes it 10x better to me. It’s not surprising a new company with products you still need to be on a waiting list to get are not as refined as one of the largest companies on the planet with decades of history.

    donut4ever ,

    You mean my neighbor won’t be able to think that I’m badass, rich, fancy and living my American Dream? 😱 You want to ruin my social status? How dare you 💔

    vidumec ,
    @vidumec@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    you don’t have a choice if you need Xcode for iOS/MacOS development

    mechoman444 ,

    You, correct, if you need to develop for iOS or something Apple related you’ll need the appropriate hardware and software.

    Which brings us back to my original point don’t buy Apple products.

    kylemsguy ,

    mac mini's are pretty cheap for that purpose. And besides, just because you personally don't use a platform doesn't stop you from making money from people who do.

    raginghummus ,

    Except they’re not. They’re excellent products and since Apple silicon are actually half decent value in some cases.

    mechoman444 ,

    Except that they are. There is absolutely no value to anything they make. It’s all over priced proprietary crap.

    Apple products right now are almost entirely home use there’s almost no commercial industry anymore.

    Developers graphic design artists music producers most technology firms most offices like doctors and lawyers whatever don’t use Apple products. They’re almost exclusively windows.

    Literally the only thing keeping them in business right now is the iPhone. They don’t sell enough of any other product.

    raginghummus ,

    What world are you living on? Most of silicon valley use Mac. Most the professions you listed DO use Mac. Since Apple silicon, performance for price ratio beats most Windows options for most people.

    mechoman444 ,

    What world am I living on. Wow. No.

    Most of silicon valley does not run on apple.

    The delusion that your mind is under that makes you believe that performance to price is better with Apple you need a seat professional help.

    kylemsguy ,

    honestly one of the reasons I use a macbook is because I interned for a tech company that handed out macbooks as standard-issue laptops.

    Player2 ,

    They really did it again huh

    LakesLem ,

    It’s so annoying. I want to love Apple, heck I’ve been there and HAD Apple everything. They have a great *nix OS, well polished ecosystem, very good security and privacy practices… but hostility towards repair, along with planned obsolescence, ended up turning me off. One aspect is sustainability. Repair is more sustainable than recycle. They have good recycling credentials but that should be last resort.

    UlyssesT ,

    Enshittification intensifies

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    It’s tight to balance between the demand on how impossibly small things are getting, the space requirements for user serviceable latches, and just straight up reduction in component sizes.

    I remember back when it was easy to desolder a capacitor/vacuum tube to replace a part; then they got smaller and replaced by IC chips. I remember back when we can just pull out a and replace memory modules on cards; then they got soldered on, but hey the card can still be ripped out of the PCI slots and replaced. Now we’re seeing the GPU, CPU, and memory all getting smaller, all getting fused into a single SOC on the ever shrinking logic board… It is just the inevitable future if the world continues to want things smaller (to fit in pockets) and faster (lesser distance for signal to travel).

    Unpopular opinion: I find this whole “right to repair” really pointless endeavour pushed by repair shops wanting to retain their outdated business model. In 50 years, when the entire system that’s more powerful than the most powerful supercomputer today lives entirely in the stem of your glasses, and the display is fused into the lens or projection, no one will have the necessary tools to pull apart the systems nor the physical precision to repair things… and that future will come, whether these right to repair people want it or not.

    It is probably better use of our collective resources to focus on researching technologies that will help us deconstruct these tiny components into their constituent matters (stable chemical compounds), such that they can be reused to build into newer equipments, as opposed to sitting in a landfill never being used again.

    SkepticElliptic ,

    It’s nothing new. Have you ever opened up a laser disc player or discman from 1989? Extremely intracate parts Ave mechanisms that are nearly impossible to work with.

    Even a basic VCR or DVD drive has a ton of small moving parts which are difficult or impossible to fix and designed to break early and often.

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    Yep. And the steady march towards even smaller parts that are not user serviceable will continue to persist. The pipe dream of being able to self service will fizzle out — if not in 50 years, in an inevitable eventuality of the Computronium; good luck self repairing by rearranging literal atoms at home.

    transistor ,
    @transistor@lemdro.id avatar

    Do you need to rearrange atoms to change the display panel of your laptop?

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    We’re not at the computronium age yet, but as technology progress, that’s the eventuality. As such, repair shops’ attempt to rally clueless regulators to put in right to repair law is merely getting in the way and slowing down the inevitability.

    transistor ,
    @transistor@lemdro.id avatar

    It’s not just repair shops that want right to repair.

    Blimp7990 ,

    the ability to repair may or may not grow with the ability to manufacture, but there is no reason to assume it will not.

    when we reach your magical future, the right to repair may be represented as DRM installed on your replicator unit which prevents your replicator from repairing a device unless you take it to an Authorized Apple Technician, or it might be represented as nothing because nothing is actually repairable. But assuming your version of the world is absolute fact on the time scale of 100 years is absolutely ridiculous.

    SkepticElliptic ,

    We’ll reach a point where performance improvements are largely unnecessary. Sure, governments and corps will still privately compete to get those precious nano seconds ahead on trades or whatever.

    CeeBee ,

    Unpopular opinion: I find this whole “right to repair” really pointless endeavour pushed by repair shops wanting to retain their outdated business model.

    Either you’re a shill, or you have zero clue what you’re talking about. It’s one of the two.

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    Think what you want. The eventuality is either humanity’s own undoing or Computronium; good luck rearranging literal atoms at home.

    PS: incidentally, before the previous reply, I just shared a bunch of info to show someone how to replace soldered RAM module. So I’m probably/hopefully not completely clueless. But, again, think what you will.

    Blimp7990 ,

    “good luck doing magical thing without magical tool” is…technically accurate, but not useful.

    NotAnArdvark ,

    Why not explain why you think this rather than level accusations. It’s not clear to me why this person has “zero clue” or is a “shill”.

    corsicanguppy ,

    the guy’s neither, of course. It’s a valid opinion, well-described.

    I completely disagree with him, but his point has obviously been considered over the course of a long career actually repairing gear.

    corsicanguppy ,

    And, based on downvotes, experience and perspective are valueless.

    GyozaPower ,

    Because it’s not only about being able to repair everything at home, but forcing the companies to avoid anti-repair practices and making you to either pay an (purposefully) exorbitant price to have it repaired by them or just having to buy a new device altogether.

    That’s why that dude is a shill, because he is talking as if companies act in good faith (for whatever reson) and the devices are simply “too complex” to repair. They are not, companies are puposefully making it as obscure and hard to repair as possible so that, again, you have to either pay a shit ton of money for them to repair it for you or just buy a new device altogether because changing shit like the glass of the back of the phone is half as expensive as a new device or a design “flaw” that should be covered by warranty gets turned into a simple “motherboard is faulty and warranty doesn’t cover it”.

    zephyreks ,

    I mean, you were never blocked from replacing ICs. Most people just didn’t have the capability to solder. Today, IC replacement is blocked by hardware DRM.

    MayonnaiseArch ,
    @MayonnaiseArch@beehaw.org avatar

    This sounds like it’s better to wait for imaginary benefits than do the things we really can do. Anyway, there is absolutely no reason not to repair things even if you want your scifi disassembler. Our collective resources are not strained in the slightest by repairs.

    KrokanteBamischijf , (edited )

    I take issue with some of the statements here. First of all:

    I find this whole “right to repair” really pointless endeavour pushed by repair shops wanting to retain their outdated business model.

    Right to repair is definitely not just being pushed by repair shops. If you take a good look at the rate Framework is selling devices at (batches instantly sold out until Q1 2024), you’ll see that consumers want this more than any other group. We, as the consumers will ultimately benefit the most from having repair options available. Right to repair is not meant to halt innovation, it is not about forcing manufacturers to design products in ways detrimental to the functioning of said products. It is about making sure they don’t lock third parties out of the supply chain. If you replace a traditional capacitor with a SMD variant, someone is going to learn to micro solder. If you convert a chip from socketed to BGA mount, someone is going to learn how to use a heat plate and hot air gun to solder it back in to place.

    The main problem is manufacturers demonstrably going out of their way to prevent the feasable.

    The second part I take issue with is this:

    It is probably better use of our collective resources to focus on researching technologies that will help us deconstruct these tiny components into their constituent matters

    From my 12 years of experience in design of consumer goods and engineering for manufacturing I can tell you this is not happening because no one is going to pay for it. The more tightly you bond these “constituent matters” together, the more time, energy, reasearch and money it will require to convert them back into useful resources.

    There is only one proper way to solve this problem and it is to include reclamation of resources into the product lifecycle design. Which is currently not widely done because companies put profits before sustainability. And this model will be upheld until legislation puts a halt to it or until earth’s resources run out.

    In terms of sustainability the desireable order of action is as follows:

    • reduce: make it so you need less resources overall
    • prolong: make it so you can make do as long as possible with your resources. this part includes repair when needed
    • reuse: make it so that a product can be used for the same purpose again. this part includes repair when needed
    • repurpose: make it so that a product can be used for a secondary purpose
    • recycle: turn a product into resources to be used for making new products
    • burn: turn the product into usable energy (by burning trash in power stations for example)
    • dispose: usually landfill
    maynarkh ,

    Only thing is that repair technically should belong to “prolong” I think, so even more desireable.

    CorruptBuddha ,

    Technology doesn’t proliferate as quickly as you’d expect. Most people aren’t on the cusp of the latest and greatest. I worked for a fucking multibilliondollar international company 2 years ago, and they still pick product, and communicate inventory adjustments with pen and paper.

    People rely on the previous shit they’ve bought.

    areyouevenreal ,

    In the very long term you are right. The thing is we aren’t there yet. Lots of companies are making things unrepairable for no reason right now. This is at a time when we need to produce less stuff to help the environment.

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    I agree we’re long way from it; but, I don’t think the secure signing of components would necessarily equates to “no reason”, though, that’s definitely not a blanket statement. Personally I’m huge proponent for locking down components with secure signing on the portable devices — less likely to experience theft, if thieves cannot get into the device nor salvage for parts (though right now they just skim passcode and reset iCloud account to circumvent it; but this can be fixed with more security around the workflow). However, for fixed devices, it makes less sense.

    areyouevenreal ,

    Yeah nah. Signing components isn’t gonna stop people stealing phones just like iCloud dosen’t now. Nobody apart from you actually wants this feature.

    LakesLem ,

    I can see an eventual future when the cores, RAM and storage are all on one IC or something which would also be great for performance (I just bought a desktop processor that does some clever stacking of extra L3 cache on top of the cores). As others said though we’re not quite there yet.

    Ever since Steve Jobs (I think perhaps as a way of coping with illness making him thinner himself) Apple has done this thing of telling consumers that they want thinner, thinner, thinner at all costs (and other manufacturers following Apple because of course they do) but I’ve seen no real evidence of consumers actually wanting this. I for one (and I know I’m far from the only one) don’t actually mind a bit more thickness if it means a bigger battery, using an M.2 slot (oh no a few mm difference) etc.

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    Yeah I’d love them to rid the camera mesa plateau by flushing the back with extra thick battery… but apparently consumers don’t want the extra weight… 🤷 can’t win them all I guess.

    rastilin ,

    I might agree with you if the boards themselves were disposable. If a high end macbook were $300 then sure, just get a new one. But they're $2000 or more just for an "ok" model. At that price they should be repairable.

    I think people's anger stems from the fact that it wouldn't be hard for laptops to be repairable and in fact Apple's putting in additional roadblocks over time to make repairing harder. At the very least, having broken components be removable would do a lot for hardware lifespan.

    makatwork ,

    Recycling credentials are nonsense. I work in the ewaste industry, very few things actually get recycled. Resale is the goal of these companies. Otherwise most ewaste companjes just trade thier scrap back and forth until it eventually ends up in a landfill in a country with poor regulations.

    awwsom ,
    @awwsom@beehaw.org avatar

    at this point i dont care about apple products.

    wild_dog ,

    This is why I’m still rocking a 2012 MacBook pro that I’ve repaired several times

    renlok ,

    All of their products are anti consumer and they have been for years. I don’t understand why people still buy their products

    The_Jewish_Cuban ,
    @The_Jewish_Cuban@hexbear.net avatar

    Really really good marketing, packaging and fomo overall

    zephyrvs ,

    Not being forced to use Windows or having to hope that Ubuntu works, battery life, raw SoC performance, good keyboards (after they fixed the duds from 2016-2020), best trackpads in town, good quality apps, native Unix shell?

    I was really looking into buying the Framework laptop but apart from that, everything seemed to be more or less crap (for my use cases) if you don’t want to deal with Thinkpads.

    some_guy ,

    Because I love the platform. I’ve been a Mac user for decades. People harp on marketing making us foam at the mouth for these products, but I genuinely love them. I also hate some decisions, but the time to switch platforms is not today or in the foreseeable future.

    Yes, Linux would let me do most of what I want to do. But I appreciate the design of indie Mac apps. They’re far beyond the polish of apps on Linux and Windows.

    Addv4 ,

    Sad to say it but yeah. I’ve never really used MacBooks, but I had an ipad pro 10.5 for years, and it finally died on me a few months ago. I recently replaced it with a 2 in 1 thinkpad, but the level of usability is just not the same. Tried windows (kinda half thought out) and currently going through Linux distros (mostly buggy when in purely touchscreen only mode) but it is a far cry ipad os, even if I have issues with it.

    JustARegularNerd ,

    Yeah, I’m really trying to find a tablet that is about 8 inches and has extremely smooth usage of web browsing and YouTube, that isn’t an iPad mini (or Samsung, just don’t like their UI), and it seems like nothing comes close anywhere in the industry, maybe with the possible exception of the Google Pixel Tablet. It feels like the entire industry gave up trying to innovate tablets because iPads were that good.

    Addv4 ,

    Not to mention that they all abandoned headphone Jack’s, even though if they kept them they might have actually got me. If you don’t need a headphone jack, I’m pretty sure Huawei has some tablets running their harmonyOS (fork of android, I think), have heard they’re pretty decent.

    bpm ,

    They’re great work laptops, as long as you treat them as basically disposable. If I have a problem, just turn it into IT and grab another, pull down the repos and I’m off. Wouldn’t buy one with my own money, though.

    LakesLem ,

    I don’t any more because of this kind of thing but I can understand. A few points at the top of my head

    • Great desktop OS (note how Windows and Linux still to this day have inconsistencies on high DPI displays, to name just one example!
    • Integration between them is good
    • Security and privacy practices are great
    • The phones are very consistent with camera quality and battery life
    Audbol ,

    Windows has pretty great high dpi, Apple privacy is pretty awful and they hide everything they are doing, security is definitely getting worse on MacOS while the opposite is the case on Windows. And Apple still doesn’t super touchscreen which is an immediate deal breaker

    areyouevenreal ,

    Windows privacy is shocking. Windows security used to be shocking so it improving is just returning to average. I don’t see any reason to think Apple devices security is getting worse. If anything it’s actually getting better.

    LakesLem ,

    There’s a lot of [citation needed] here, as for touchscreen I can see Apple’s point also, I’ve never had any desire at all to sit there with my arm outstretched poking a PC display (and covering it in fingerprints too). I’ve played with touchscreen laptops and it feels just as arm-tiring and unnatural as they said.

    Audbol ,

    I guess if you’ve only played with it briefly you could feel that way but it’s really not the case, especially when you consider convertibles. Fingerprints on the screen are no more of an issue on a laptop as they would be on your phone obviously. Apples only point for not supporting touchscreen doesn’t actually have anything to do with any of those factors actually, their reasoning is only related to maximizing revenue from the iPad as a convertible laptop well replace the need for a tablet. I mean you can stand around and say touchscreens are bad and uncomfortable but there is a reason they are so popular and used so commonly.

    ExLisper ,

    They are just used to them. OS X has one specific way of working that, once you learn it, is quite good. It sucks completely if you try to use it in different way so if you don’t like magic mouse (which sucks) and don’t like using their laptop keyboard (which sucks) and touchpad you will not enjoy it. But if Mac is all you know, you’re used to their hardware and know how it works you will love it because any other OS will be different and feel way less ergonomic. In my opinion if you’re skilled Linux/Windows user will customized workflow OS X will feel limited and be painful to use. If it’s you first computer or you don’t have any established workflow you will like it a lot.

    catfish ,

    It sucks completely if you try to use it in different way so if you don’t like magic mouse (which sucks) and don’t like using their laptop keyboard (which sucks) and touchpad you will not enjoy it.

    This isn’t true for me. I use the same (cheap Logitech) mouse with Win11, Linux, and my MBPs. What’s meant to be the issue? It’s just like every other setup I’ve used in the last 30 years.

    ExLisper ,

    In my experience the only quick way to switch between windows of the same app, different apps, maximized apps and virtual desktops is using magic mouse/touchpad gestures. Without them it’s simply painful. Maybe you found some setup that works for you but I wasn’t able to reproduce the way I like to use WM in OS X. For example I use keyboard shortcuts to move windows between monitors and according to this …stackexchange.com/…/does-macos-have-a-keyboard-s…in OS X it was only made possible in 2020 (I stopped using OS X before that) or you had to use 3rd party app. Same with sending windows to different desktops: superuser.com/…/is-there-a-way-to-move-the-curren…

    catfish ,

    That’s a really interesting answer - it all makes sense that those things can be irritating, and also why I had no idea about them:

    For years I have had my applications and windows (IDE, tabbed console, browser(s)) set up in fixed positions. I rarely switch between them in a way which isn’t a keyboard shortcut (99% command-tab) or involves the mouse anyway (for testing, or video calls). I never normally move windows between screens or anything like that in my workflow.

    In the good and very old days I literally just had emacs maximised and that was it, all day long 😇

    I guess I got lucky in a sense - that not needing functionality meant I wasn’t affected by it being missing, but it might partly be a positive side effect of desiring simplicity and less from the WM so I can focus on my own things.

    ExLisper ,

    Yes, that’s exactly my view of OS X. If you can adapt your workflow to its limited functionality you will have a pretty stable, simple, easy to use environment. If you’re workflow doesn’t fit you’re out of luck and using it will be very painful. Linux on the other hand just offers you all the settings you need so everyone can work the way they like.

    echodot ,

    I can’t stand their keyboards. The keys have virtually no travel on them, they’re all low profile, and for some insane reason that I can’t work out, because isn’t their core market supposed to be audio engineers and graphic artists, the keyboards have no buttons for bindable macros.

    Meanwhile I can get an excellent keyboard with decent travel and macro buttons for very little money. I get why the keyboards have to be low profile on laptops but why do they also have low profile keyboards for desktops? They are objectively the worst possible keyboard for a desktop. But they look sleek and modern so I guess that’s all that’s important. And because they are anti everything they are anti-choice, so I don’t get an alternate option, and have to buy an independent keyboard.

    aaaaaaadjsf ,
    @aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net avatar

    I really dislike Apple’s business practices. I remember replacing a screen on a friend’s iPhone and the display flex cable would not provide a proper connection without the little metal bracket over the top of it being installed. Honestly thought the replacement display was broken at a point. Never seen such on an android phone.

    gdelopata ,

    I have m2 max provided by work. I would never pay for this piece of shit with great battery life… if only out IT supported Linux, I would switch to framework in no time!

    Dubious_Fart , (edited )

    another example of why apple laptops are so expensive.

    80% of the price is to cover the R&D for fucking over the consumer.

    Seriously, tying the goddamn *hall effect sensor to the system so it cant be replaced? Thats some freaking cyberpunk level corpo shitbaggery.

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