There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

Why aren't advertisers (Microsoft, Facebook, Google) held responsible for allowing scammy adverts?

I know they allow scam adverts because it’s easy money, but why aren’t they held responsible for facilitating obvious scams? You open Edge, there’s 3 “Earn money quick” adverts. On Instagram, every 5 ads, one is a scam.

Gradually_Adjusting ,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

Because to the tech industry, stuff like “basic accountability”, “selling things people actually want”, and “developing without limitless free capital” are all considered hate crimes.

DrQuint ,

Nah, the problem OP poses was also a major issue with TV ads, specially the kind of ads with that whole telemarketing, “buy now get 2 free, but wait there’s more, we’ll throw in these accessories all for” vibe. And radio, and magazines. A lot of snake oil and re-branded stuff was sold through it.

The real reason why accountability isn’t given to the platforms is because then the platforms would be less sustainable. And for the older media, that might have been fine still. But not so much the internet, which arguably, barely sustains itself on a gigantic ad-based bubble. It would be a death-throw for 99% of what we build and consume online. We just simply depend on ads THAT much.

I say they should try anyways. Absolutely. I do think the internet could benefit from having a lot more, smaller website, like before. We’re even popularizing the concept of interoperability again, like, man, we’re posting on Lemmy, a platform made to spread platforms. I think we’re closers to kill the ad dependency now than we ever been after the death of usenet.

Gradually_Adjusting ,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

Agree - I was just off on a tear

BolexForSoup ,
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

I really want to set up my own message board, not necessarily a Lemmy instance - something simpler. Just to start dipping my toes in that world. Is there anything you would recommend as the “easiest” path to hosting my own little forum?

trafguy ,

Easiest? I’d say WordPress on a Digital Ocean droplet if you’re going super small. Allow people to sign up and vet them, and you have a functional standalone platform pretty much as soon as you can get users. I don’t know that it would take off or have a sustainable userbase though

BolexForSoup ,
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

It’s mostly for my own education and a couple of friends if they want to play around on it. It’s not meant to be some big project. I didn’t know WP could handle that I’ll check it out!

trafguy ,

Well, I’ll admit it might be poorly suited, but I know it supports comments, posts, and user signups. Users would sign up with a sbscriber role, you’d verify them somehow, and then you’d update their role. It would be a little janky but should work with little adjustment

BolexForSoup ,
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

Sounds perfect. My ideal situation is I start with the most bare-bones, easiest to do version. Then as I learn what I really want, find other things that allow what I want to do, and slowly teach myself. It’s basically how I’ve learned to do anything lol

ElectroVagrant ,

I dunno which may be easiest, but if you’d like to know some of your options, this Wikipedia page may be a good place to start.

BolexForSoup ,
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

Huh wouldn’t have thought to check for that. Thanks!

xkforce ,

Trillion dollar company, multibillion dollar company, trillion dollar company

And all 3 of them will point to the 1st amendment as prohibiting the government from regulating speech outside of a few very narrow circumstances.

KBTR1066 ,
@KBTR1066@kbin.social avatar

One of which is fraud. So yeah, this argument holds no water. The only reason this shit is allowed is money. There's money to be made by allowing it. And money to be lost in preventing it. The end.

TheObserver ,
@TheObserver@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Don’t know, i have an ad blocker and so should you.

ICastFist OP ,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

“I don’t have a problem with what you presented, you should do what I do and forget about it”

Call me when your apathy solves a problem to someone else

BolexForSoup , (edited )
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    ICastFist OP ,
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    The problem: companies profit by advertising shit that’s barely legal

    The solution: “install an adblock lol”

    Explain to me how that solves the problem

    “You don’t see the ads anymore”

    Yet the company is still profitting and anyone without adblock still sees it. It’s the equivalent of closing your eyes to a problem.

    BolexForSoup , (edited )
    @BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    ICastFist OP ,
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    You should’ve lead with that instead of just “use an adblock”, completely skirting the actual problem. The way you first commented was apathetic.

    You’re just acting like promoting adblockers comes at the expense of meaningful change.

    That would make sense if the discussion wasn’t targeted specifically at the responsible companies. It’s the same thing as saying “use Linux” whenever a complaint about windows shows up.

    Just in case it’s not clear, the way you reply makes all the difference in how you’re interpreted. “I use adblock and so should you” != “these companies profit off it, it’s why everyone should use an adblock”

    Z3k3 ,

    Web Integrity API enters the chat

    dannoffs ,
    @dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Completely selfishly I’m not too mad about the web integrity thing because I hate ads so much that if I were forced to see them I would use the Internet less which would probably be good.

    Z3k3 ,

    Who knows that may be the up shot.

    We all IMHO use it way too much these days especially me.

    Hell it’s gotten so bad that years ago I found out my dad was in hospital via a fecking Facebook Post that said something along the lines of welp the surgery went well.

    BolexForSoup ,
    @BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

    So I consider myself decently tech savvy, and I think I have my head wrapped around what WEI does, but could someone give me a decent analogy for it so I can help explain why it’s bad to other people? I feel like I have a 90% understanding so it’s keeping me from coming up with a good description or analogy.

    Z3k3 ,

    The docs I read (and yes like you my job relies on me being vaguely tech savey) but someone else can correct me ehere I go wrong

    Server sends you app data e.g.youtube.

    You receive app data but have extentions that fiddle with data. Not necessarily ad blocker could be any tamper monkey script or a relatively unknown accessibility extension that makes the page palatable.

    Browser runs off to authorised entity e.g. Google but they are proposing others (all others I have seen named are big corporate cunts like ms and fb)

    They check what’s on your screen and if what’s on the page matches what was sent we all good. If not they can block your access.

    BolexForSoup ,
    @BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

    Thanks!

    Polar ,

    So in other words, Google wants to be able to confirm the web page you requested is not tempered with, similar to a video game detecting any kind of mods?

    Ya, I don’t see how that’ll work out for them. Even those who don’t use ad blockers, many use accessibility plugins like you said.

    I mean damn. I probably have at least 5 extensions that modify the page in some way. Adding better contrast, removing buttons I don’t use and want to hide…

    Z3k3 ,

    Game mods is a good simile ill try remember that.

    Hell the gta franchise is probably a good example as Rockstar flipped their mod position at one point.

    Rhynoplaz ,

    I’ve always hated advertising, but I hated it even more once I worked in advertising.

    That being said, it’s unfair to advertisers. (ugh, I hate saying that, because it’s a slimy business, but this is the reality) Nobody has the time to thoroughly research EVERY business that wants to buy advertising. Also, there’s a fine line between scams and completely legal yet manipulative business.

    Bill might be starting a legitimate small business and wants to advertise to get his first clients. There’s very little information available online and no reviews because he’s just starting out, but that could look like a fly by night scammer.

    Joe owns a similar small business. He charges too much and he doesn’t do very good work. That’s not illegal, but people who use his services might feel like they got scammed.

    Bob’s a piece of shit. He wants to take your money and give you nothing in return. He knows what an advertiser would look for to verify his legitimacy, and he makes a fake website full of fake reviews.

    In this instance, the advertiser might refuse to sell to Bill, get sued for selling to Joe and spend money and time proving that he’s technically legit, and perhaps not even know that Bob’s a scammer until months after he’s taken the money and run.

    ante ,
    @ante@lemmy.world avatar

    Uhhh maybe they should find the time to do that then? How is “we don’t have the time” a valid excuse? Either hire more staff to do so, or sell fewer ads.

    GiantRobotTRex ,

    Unfortunately that would disproportionately impact small local businesses far more than large corporations.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    How?

    captainlezbian ,

    Because you know who General Electric is and it’s easy to verify they’re actually advertising with you and that they’re a legitimate company, Jim-Bob’s Auto Repair, not so much.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    Oh yeah i see auto repair scam adverts all the time...?

    Wait no, im seeing goddamn miracle cures for aging on youtube. Old guy literally saying itll make you 20 years old again.

    AstralJaeger ,
    @AstralJaeger@lemmy.world avatar

    Woudl you like to buy Doctor Binsemanns Bevertail extract? It cures cancer, aids, std’s, headaches, stupid and much much more! Its even cheaper than insulin! Only $59.99 per 50ml

    You mean like that? Been there, seen that, I know why I pay for kagi and YT Premium and have adblockers everywhere else.

    scarabic ,

    “Knowing who General Electric is” is not how verification is done. Small businesses can authorize a credit card, provide an official ID, submit their LLC info… these aren’t rocket science and scammers won’t do any of them. Do you know how many fields operate with licensing in place? Do you think inly GE-sized companies do plumbing, for example?

    gravitas_deficiency ,

    That’s… not how due diligence works.

    ProvokedGamer ,
    @ProvokedGamer@lemmy.ca avatar

    Spending more money on more staff for checking the validity of advertisements can affect small businesses more because they have less money.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    You got turned around somewhere, we're talking about small businesses advertising through major platforms like google. Theres no "small business" online advertising platforms

    ProvokedGamer ,
    @ProvokedGamer@lemmy.ca avatar

    Ahh ok. I guess I kinda got lost in the thread somewhere. Thanks for letting me know. Ignore my previous comment.

    jbrains ,

    Businesses exist to make profit, not to take care of you. Corporations will only care about your welfare to the extent that that creates profit for them or the laws require them to.

    giffybiss ,

    And then they complain when we tell them that we want to overthrow capitalism.

    It’s giving „you have to accept being harmed because otherwise my business can’t turn a profit“

    Fuk yo business then, don give a shit about it.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    or the laws require them to.

    I believe thats whats being suggested

    jbrains ,

    Yes, I know. I also agree.

    The comment I replied to, however, was not that. It asked why the corporations’ reason is valid. It’s valid because that’s what the economic system is designed to promote.

    Z3k3 ,

    While also complaining its not fair when we protect ourselves from the business they won’t protect us from e.g. ad blockers.

    Google going so far to invent “Web drm” to ensure we have no choice but allow them to serve us malicious ads that the won’t filer themselves

    Rhynoplaz ,

    It’s not just time and resources, they too are being lied to. If the scam is good enough that people will fall for it, some advertisers will as well.

    Right now there are no regulations, so many don’t care at all. That sucks, but the scammers are the problem here. They are the ones trying to rip you off. The ad companies might not care if you get screwed or not, but it’s unrealistic for us to expect them to know EXACTLY what every client’s intentions are. A business could run legitimately for years and then start running a scam. How long would we give the advertisers to realize that the client has started scamming people? Do they get in trouble because they ran ads for someone who would LATER start scamming people?

    I’m all for discussing other ways to control advertising, but shooting the messenger isn’t it.

    ante ,
    @ante@lemmy.world avatar

    I haven’t and likely can’t think of a good solution to handling the scenarios you’re talking about. They are good questions that someone smarter than me should address. However, to use those scenarios to completely admonish advertising platforms for blatantly obvious scams is asinine. “Well, what if a legitimate business starts scamming people?” should have little relevancy to the question of “Should we accept this ad from a user advertising that they’re going to double your money if you give them access to your financial accounts?”

    I’m not saying it’s simple or quick to solve, but there is very obvious low-hanging fruit that could be dealt with but is somehow not because these platforms aren’t held accountable whatsoever. It has to start somewhere.

    Rhynoplaz ,

    I agree completely. I just wanted to point out some of the difficulties in doing what was posted.

    sadreality ,

    Well, it hurts the holy profit... also, you sound like a fucking communist!

    AdverseAffects ,

    Did you take the seconds to read the comment you’re replying to?

    ante ,
    @ante@lemmy.world avatar

    What the fuck are you talking about?

    dQw4w9WgXcQ ,

    Absolutely. There is an exchange of money involved in the advertising services, so it would be natural to expect a small fee for sanity-checking the advertisement. Facebook are mostly able to check for nudity, porn or gore in the advertisement, so with some additional inspection, it should be possible to weed out a lot of scams.

    ICastFist OP ,
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    Makes sense when you’re dealing with actual services or products, but I’ve yet to see a single “earn 200 per hour” ad that isn’t a scam or “legal” pyramid, those should be easy enough to block and ban, no?

    Rhynoplaz ,

    Who decides which legal businesses are allowed to run ads?

    I completely agree that MLMs are a “scam” but they are legitimate businesses in the eyes of the law. You suggested we ban them, so what defines who is allowed to advertise and who isn’t? I’m not comfortable with leaving it as “anything somebody in charge doesn’t like”.

    ICastFist OP ,
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    Some extra regulation on advertising might at least help somewhat, “Any adverts promising financial gains must clearly demonstrate how said gain is to be achieved”

    Rhynoplaz ,

    Yes. That would be a great start.

    skulblaka ,
    @skulblaka@kbin.social avatar

    I completely agree that MLMs are a “scam” but they are legitimate businesses in the eyes of the law.

    Then they shouldn't be. Problem solved, next question?

    BolexForSoup , (edited )
    @BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

    I really try to caution people from accepting these "it's too much to hold us accountable for" answers. If it's too much, then cut back. Simple as that. If I am a real estate mogul and my building collapses like in Miami, do you think the local/state/federal agencies involved will shrug it off when I go "Now now now, I have far too many properties. I can't possibly be expected to be in compliance all the time. A collapse and some deaths once in a while is inevitable"? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Yet when youtube goes "we simply have too many uploads to screen it all," we do just that!

    Same goes here. If you're juggling too many advertisers, why is that our problem? Hire more people, scale back, or figure out some third option. Instead we all just internalized this concept that "there's nothing that can be done."

    gravitas_deficiency ,

    Yeah. This is why we have things called regulations.

    When seatbelts and crumple zones and airbags and crash safety ratings became a thing, car manufacturers didn’t want to add any of that crap in, because, you know, it would cut into their profit margins. And then the government said “do it or you’re not allowed to sell cars”. And then all the manufacturers did it.

    Something similar can theoretically be done for advertising. But it probably won’t, because regulatory capture has been normalized.

    Treczoks , (edited )

    Nobody has the time to thoroughly research EVERY business that wants to buy advertising.

    Wrong. Nobody wants to spend the money to do that, because they know they will not be held responsible for aiding and abetting fraud.

    Change the responsibility factor, and the money will be there.

    Rhynoplaz ,

    Or, instead of finding that money, they find another way to avoid spending it.

    It wouldn’t be long before you only see advertising from large corporations. Love them or hate them, we all know that Walmart is a legit business. A potential, morally superior competitor, that we’ve never heard of may not even get the chance to advertise. The newspaper or TV station doesn’t want to risk getting sued for a scam, so they just refuse service. Walmart keeps playing ads, and nobody ever hears about the store that we never knew we wanted.

    JokeDeity ,

    In the one hand though, if only the big corporations can afford ads, blocking them becomes even easier.

    scarabic ,

    Nobody has the time

    This is a dumb excuse for a profitable business. If you’re making money on it you should be able to subsidize controls. If you can’t operate a business safely and still make a profit, you shouldn’t be in business. It’s that simple.

    GreenMario ,

    nobody has time

    Maybe be a good JOB CREATOR and create some motherfucking jobs to handle it. Oh no our bottom line… 😭

    psud , (edited )

    It’d be a terrible shame if advertising became more expensive (because they needed to employ content checkers), and companies could no longer afford to advertise as much

    Neve8028 ,

    As much as I don’t love advertising, it’s mainly just the big corporations that wouldn’t care about a bit of a price lift. Small businesses will be hit disproportionately.

    Simmy ,

    You guys see adds?

    strawberry ,
    @strawberry@artemis.camp avatar

    laughs in uBO

    slazer2au ,

    Adnausem. Clicks on the ads in the background while hiding them. No ads and fucking up your digital footprint, come at me targeted advertisements.

    dependencyInjection ,

    Bro every day I open edge at work and the home page is just scammy adverts, ad revenue farming top 10 slides, or garbage about which dog are you.

    I do think they should be held to account over what they show on there.

    slazer2au ,

    You know you can turn that shit off right? Make the edge new tab basically a search bar and a top sites you visited page.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    Googles been supporting Prager U for many years

    slazer2au ,

    Because they are not making the adverts. That is it. As they are not the creator they won’t be held responsible.

    Polar ,

    So I guess it’s okay to distribute CP, because you aren’t the creator, therefore you’re not going to be held responsible.

    PR_freak ,

    According to the law you are required to remove it as soon as you know it is there, but if you are not the original uploader you are not going to be held responsible

    FireTower ,
    @FireTower@lemmy.world avatar

    If I received financial compensation to promote a Ponzi scheme I would be held accountable.

    PR_freak ,

    It is the law’s job to prevent and stop scams not of the platform that provides the advertising

    If I had a printing shop (not sure how is it called in English) should I be the one who checks that what is written on the handouts is legit? Heck no, I don’t have the means for that.

    FireTower ,
    @FireTower@lemmy.world avatar

    In this case the company selling ad space isn’t the print shop they are the man handing out those handouts. They receive money from the scammers for directing people to these scam websites, money that is the profits of those scams.

    (People will understand what you mean if you say printing shop. As a native English speaker I normally hear it said as just print shop, but printing shop works.)

    1rre , (edited )

    The websites (or at least Google & Facebook - not sure about Microsoft, it could just be low value ad space that nobody really wants?) you’ve described are known as “walled gardens” in advertising, meaning the DSP (demand side platform, where people who run ad campaigns manage those campaigns), SSP (supply-side platform, where websites & apps with available add space list that space) and at times the website itself are all part of the same company.

    This creates a conflict of interest - essentially DSPs want to place as few ads as reasonable as they only want to advertise to people the ads will have an impact on. SSPs want to show as many ads as possible so they get paid more. This results in walled gardens, like Google & Facebook, showing ads more than they should be resulting in overcharging as a result compared to an optimally run campaign. Many reputable companies and ad agencies are aware of this and so advertise less with the walled gardens, resulting in proportionally higher scam ads, as no agency would run a campaign for them.

    There’s also the fact that they have no relationships to maintain. If a DSP is constantly showing scam ads in the ad spaces they buy, then they’ll get blacklisted by the SSP. Same the other way around if the SSP keeps selling misrepresented ad spaces that will never be seen or will be resold every 5 seconds to the DSP, or otherwise not being a trustworthy partner to work with. As the walled gardens don’t need to maintain this relationship and there’s no risk of being blacklisted, they can effectively advertise whatever and put ads wherever on their website - they’re generally powerful enough that people will use their product anyway, so there’s no downside for them to accepting scam ads if they’re paying.

    fiat_lux ,

    Because citizens of many countries are not pressuring their elected officials to change advertising laws such that there is accountability, but companies are most certainly constantly lobbying for relaxed regulations.

    It's not often you can look to Brasil for policy guidance, so São Paulo's ban on billboards/outside advertising is pretty remarkable in a number of ways. If they can rid a city of outdoor advertising, surely the world can get a few advertising oversight laws?

    The downside is that you can't just throw up your hands and say "Someone else should fix this! Why haven't they?" and walk off. It's a chore that takes time and energy from an already time and energy poor population, and I respect that there is a lot of broken shit in this world that needs fixing.

    driving_crooner ,
    @driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

    One best side effects of that “clean city” law is that building are clean to be used as canvases for artists to paint giant murals on them and now the city is know for its incredible street art.

    olsonexi ,
    @olsonexi@lemmy.wtf avatar

    Because they have unfathomably ridiculous amounts of money that they spend on lobbying (read: bribery) so that they stay not responsible.

    Alcatorda ,

    I reported a scam ad to YouTube (it said it was a 1000 dollar giveaway to the first I don’t know how many people that signed up). When I googled it the top results were all about how it was a scam. Got feedback a few days later: we don’t see a problem, the ad is staying up. So they are even knowingly making the choice to show these scams to their users…

    octoperson ,

    They never gave me feedback on any of the scams I reported - they just removed my ability to report ads at all

    Gabu ,

    Because they have money…

    Trollivier , (edited )

    I know someone who works as a fraud support site a bank. An incredibly high percentage of people getting scammed come from Facebook. Either they believed an ad about investing in crypto (the bank blocks the first transaction automatically and they have to talk to the client), or they have been contacted by… Zuckerberg, or Elon Musk, who told them they needed investors for an experiment that will be extremely lucrative… I can’t believe people fall for that one.

    PR_freak ,

    It is the law’s job to prevent and stop scams not of the platform that provides the advertising

    If I had a printing shop (not sure how is it called in English) should I be the one who checks that what is written on the handouts is legit? Heck no, I don’t have the means for that.

    JokeDeity ,

    … yes? At Office Depot we had a lot of rules about what we could and could not print for customers.

    PR_freak ,

    If someone wants to restrict their services out of willingness it is fine, I just think you can’t be required to do so

    JokeDeity ,

    It’s not just that, there are laws preventing a lot of stuff (not that it’s not commonly happening anyways). For instance a huge thing was never copying anything with Disney characters in it. It’s not like Disney has a special rule only for them, it’s just that Office Depot knows they’re the ones to sue your ass into dust if you get caught. It’s the same for any copyrighted material if it’s going to be distributed, but OD ignores it for the minor stuff because it’s low risk. We just need to laws to protect us from these malicious practices and then we need them to be enforced.

    retrieval4558 ,

    I agree with that in general but think that the scenario changes when you KNOW that you’re doing business with scammers.

    VicentAdultman ,

    You can’t print whole books if your costumer asks you to without having permission to do so, you would be a distributor. If you ask the question “if I do something illegal or harmful to someone, should I be taken responsibility?” you can get a better answer. You don’t need a third party to take ethical decisions for you. That’s the point of the thread, ad companies have knowledge about harmful ads and refuse to take them down.

    PR_freak ,

    What if I decide to print my own book? A book that has no copyright at all, should the print shop prevent me from doing so?

    As you (hopefully) can see a print shop has no job enforcing the law just as much as an advertiser has to

    Enforcing the law is for law enforcement

    chiliedogg ,

    Yes.

    Any service you offer professionally should absolutely be reviewed for legality. If you didn’t have the means to comply with laws and regulations you shouldn’t be in business.

    And in the case of lots of these ads with malware, it would be like you printing poison ink on handouts, and saying you aren’t to blame.

    kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E ,

    Then why my ad for cocaine and hookers was taken down 😤

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