There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

Should I permanently leave Israel?

I’m not sure if this is the right community for this question, but it says “no stupid question” so here goes. I’m an Israeli who now lives in the US, but I am considering permanently residing in the US or elsewhere (perhaps somewhere in Europe or Canada) because I’ve become kinda disillusioned with Israel for a variety of reasons (the war in Gaza being one of them, the erosion of democracy by Likud being another, and etc) but is that cowardly to leave? Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good? Thanks for your time.

FiniteBanjo ,

It is cowardly, but the amount of good you can do is much greater while you’re alive and healthy. Cowardice is an evolutionary trait. It helps us survive. Don’t let it become guilt. If democracy has truly eroded and Israel is beyond redemption as you hypothesize, then there is nothing you could have done as an individual to begin with.

Shadowq8 ,

How is looking out for yourself cowardly ? Especially with what Israel is doing.

FiniteBanjo ,

The brave thing to do, conversely, would be to return to Israel and do everything in your power to make this catastrophe stop. Door to door activism, arranging speaking events, educating youth, protesting in front of the Knesset. Throw your body into the machine until the gears stop turning.

But not everybody will, and not everyone is even capable of doing so, nor is it the only option to create a better future.

Shadowq8 ,

the Earth is huge go start over. People die crossing borders. No one wants to cross a border into a warzone.

geneva_convenience ,

There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.

If you have the opportunity to go to Europe or Canada that is definitely a more ethical choice.

afraid_of_zombies ,

There is no changing a society built upon colonization.

Europe or Canada

unreasonabro ,

ikr. i lold

Steak ,

Bruh wut

sudo ,

There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.

How does South Africa fit into that perspective?

geneva_convenience ,

They violently expelled the colonists after trying to make peace with them for a very long time.

Read up a bit about Mandela he’s got another chapter after the peaceful one.

sudo ,

That’s changing the society that I argued against. Also I’m pretty sure majority of land ownership in south Africa is still owned by whites.

geneva_convenience ,

Maybe ask the Canadian natives how well the peace talks went. Europe is where the colonists started not sure what you mean by it.

After the revolution many ANC members got bribed into being stakeholders leaving white people still in power. The ANC’s corruption however is now degrading and they are losing votes in the election.

After dismantling the colonist empire a country doesn’t magically become utopia. It will take many years for it to build up. But while being colonized it can never start that process.

sudo ,

I think your trying to argue with someone that isn’t me. South Africa changed for the better. I never said it was perfect. Just that decolonization is possible. I never said shit about Canada.

Chev ,

The only thing you can actually change is yourself.

Xeroxchasechase ,

That’s a huge NOPE. You can organize, unionize, fight

sudo ,

In general I agree but this is Israel we’re talking about here.

TheWoozy ,

Holy defeatism, Batman!

OutlierBlue ,

I changed my bed sheets on the weekend. Check mate.

Maggoty ,

That’s a question only you can answer. Answering these questions might help you make a decision though.

Do you think Israel’s future is worth fighting for?

Do you have an ability to leave again in the future?

Can you legally vote in Israeli elections without being in Israel?

Are you giving up personal opportunities that are important to you?

Asking other people outright is just going to tell you what other people want you to do.

Wes4Humanity ,

If you go back will you be forced to fight in the Israeli army? (Deal breaker as far as I’m concerned)

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

Explain to me what you think you, an individual, would do to “change society” in Israel?

asdfasdfasdf ,

Ultimately a society is composed of many individuals. We all play a small part in its change.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

would whatever you do as an individual have more of an effect than simply not paying Israeli taxes?

asdfasdfasdf ,

In the grand scheme of things, not paying taxes is also a pretty miniscule thing. The US funding for Israel is pretty big though. If they needed more weapons that your tax dollars would have paid for, I’d guess the tax dollars you paid in the US would go to the same place. I guess the alternative is to live in not-US and not-Israel. But either way, I think the US would just fork up more money anyway.

But the main point I’m making is, bad people will find a way to do bad things. The best way to eliminate bad people is to change their minds.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

So of course in the end it should come down to what you want to do and where you see yourself living a happier life, and not what people on the internet think you should do. However, purely from a "making the world a better place" perspective, I'd recommend not returning. I get the idea of trying to change society from within, but frankly I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving. The sense of invincibility, among other issues, is too much for simple activism to fix; the country as a whole needs the Nazi Germay treatment (the de-Nazification part, not the war part). At least by not being in Israel you make sure your tax money and children aren't used in genocide.

I repeat, do what you feel is best for you, but to directly answer your question your absence does more to weaken the Israeli Apartheid apparatus than your presence. Do vote though; definitely vote.

kava ,

I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving

I think the fundamental issue with Isreal is that it was started as an ethnostate with the national religion explicitly endorsing their own population as “special” and “chosen by God”.

That ideology would never be compatible with a modern cosmopolitan liberal democratic society. All races and religions and people should be of equal worth. Any ideology that views itself as somehow special would always degenerate to apartheid and brutality.

Add in the fact that Jews are some of the smartest and most industrious people on the planet and you have a very dangerous country. You mix willingness and capacity and you get action- what we are seeing in Gaza today, and really what we’ve been seeing for decades.

I guess that is a long winded way to say, I agree. Israel in its current manifestation cannot be saved. It would require a total deconstruction of their ideology and to be frank, that probably isn’t happening anytime soon.

Maybe after WW3.

morphballganon ,

Is leaving Israel a good idea? Yes.

Is the US a good place to move to? That’s a more interesting question. We have some issues too.

scottmeme ,

Don’t forget about even more issues in a bunch of smaller places, because every state and local gov is fucked at some level

GiddyGap ,

We have some issues too.

Very true. But so do Europe and Canada.

Moneo ,

Canada is on track to elect a populist conservative PM who is anti-trans, anti carbon tax and anti taxing the rich. Shit fucking sucks right now.

AmosBurton_ThatGuy ,
@AmosBurton_ThatGuy@lemmy.ca avatar

Yeah, we in Canada aren’t having the greatest time unless you already own a house or are very well off already. No working class person is gonna be buying a house without god tier credit and skimping on everything as much as possible and even then itll be insanely hard. Rent? Went from 1800 for an old but well maintained 3 bedroom in 2017 in a nice neighbourhood to 3 fucking grand for a run down shit hole 3 bedroom in a sketchy neighbourhood with a slum lord. That was mid 2022. Shits only gotten worse since then.

Where I live you basically have only 3 options for work. Minimum wage like grocery stores, fast food etc(which are 90% TFWs cause nO oNe WaNtS tO wOrK). Government jobs for people with an education. Construction/camp jobs if you want more than minimum wage without a degree, but your old age is gonna be worse than it already is due to trading your body for a higher wage.

I’m all for good people coming here, but make sure you know what you’re getting into first. It’s fucking expensive to live here unless you wanna live in a shit hole small town (which has its own hidden expenses that eat into the savings on rent)

ExIsraeliAnarchist ,

I was lucky enough to have dual nationality and left many years ago, but then I always knew I would because I never felt like I fit in there, so I have no regrets, except for not leaving sooner - before the army would have been better, but I wasn't able too get out of it.

Be prepared though - life as an immigrant and a foreigner can have it's own challenges, as can being a Jew outside of Israel, and the "grass" - the political and social aspects of life might be different, but it isn't necessarily greener - fascism is on the rise more or less everywhere you go, as is the cost of living.

You only get one life, as long as you aren't harming anyone - do what's best for you, and remember that to create a better society the workers of the world need to unite, so it doesn't matter where you are physically, you can and should still be part of a force for change.

I don't want to give too much personal information, but if you have any questions, I can do my best to answer.

scytale ,

You don’t owe anything to a country just because you were born there, unless you owe taxes, which is inevitable lol. I left my home country for better opportunities and (hopefully) a better life. For most people, uprooting yourself and moving to another country for good is a once-in-a-lifetime chance/opportunity, so take that into account. Good luck.

oakey66 ,

As a Russian Jew who fled the Russia in the 1980s, my family moved for our safety and opportunity. Countries don’t deserve reverence just for being countries. We can be proud of our heritage without having to show allegiance to a nation state. Especially, when it is using our ethnicity/religion to brutally wipe out and massacre a civilian population.

Just do what is best for you and your family.

Microplasticbrain ,

My family left Iran before I was born and I’m grateful they did. What could we have done to change the country from within? Unfortunately nothing.

Melkath ,

It's your choice.

The whole "be the active person who stops the riches from ruining earth" trope is a lie.

The current US is just as bad as Israel if not worse.

All the losers who either flunked high school or flunked, but had daddy to pay their way have brought fascism back en masses.

If you have the luxury to move to Sweden, or the Bahammas, as far as I'm concerned, do it.

You'll be in a better place when Israel nukes Iran, WWIII pops off, and the US cripples the internet/critical infrastructure around the world.

pineapplelover ,

If you could make change, you could probably make change in other countries as well.

ashkenaziisraeli OP ,

Less so since I’m not a citizen of those countries.

CrimeDad ,

I have nothing nice to say about the state of Israel, but as an individual you owe it to yourself to live wherever you can that you will be happiest. I can think of reasons to leave the US, including its support for Israel, but I know I would be unhappy anywhere else and my leaving wouldn’t change anything.

From what I understand, the situation in Israel seems especially bad lately. I do not blame any Israeli for wanting to get out or not go back.

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

That's entirely subjective and up to you, however, I feel like I should point out we're dealing with our own erosion of democracy issues in the United States as well.

ashkenaziisraeli OP ,

I assume Trump won’t win again so its better here in the US than in Israel where the Israeli Trump keeps winning.

ABCDE ,

It’s very possible Trump will win again.

ashkenaziisraeli OP ,

I think he’s going to lose because he just is more hated than he is liked. If he wins, then I’ll eat my words obviously

ABCDE ,

That’s what happened in the last election. People have grown lax and need to turn up and vote.

ashkenaziisraeli OP ,

True

Zorque ,

He is more hated, yes, but a lot of the people who hate him will vote for him anyway because they've been led to believe the alternative is the end of civilization as they know it.

athos77 ,

It's possible Trump will win again. And even if he doesn't, he's not the only threat. There's so the emboldened MAGAts, a resurgent white nationalist / neo-Nazi / christofascist movement being weaponized, an unapologetically corrupt Supreme Court, a Republican party that's too scared of their own voters to do their job, a heavily militarized and intolerant police force, and plans to forcibly re-make the country with the next Republican president.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •