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the agent's argument in the matrix

He said to Neo that humans are like a virus, breeding and infecting the world with our “stick” and general disgustingness.

I look around the world, at the state of society, the environment, international conflict and the enshitification of humanity - I’ve gone through my life blindly accepting that life for life’s sake is beautiful, and worth it.

But as I see the state of it all, our perpetual need to destroy each other over ideas and resources, I struggle to come to grips with it. Societies around the world are facing population shrinkage… Do they all know something I don’t?

Is human life beautiful, and objectively worth perpetuating? Or are we a blight? Why should we be?

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks ,

Do you think it’s inherently human nature to be this way or do you think there are other ways for humans to be? Maybe you’re conflating human nature with something else, like capitalism.

cmeu OP ,

Whom created capitalism, or any economic strategy?

capital ,

…wikipedia.org/…/Don't_throw_the_baby_out_with_th…

cmeu OP ,

How does this Wikipedia argument address whether or not we’re a blight, or if we should be?

xmunk ,

It raises the question on whether we’re a net positive (or, well, argues that we are). Humans do a lot of shitty things but on the whole it’s worth it.

HerbalGamer ,
@HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

the baby is humanity, capitalism the bathwater.

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks ,

Who. For nominative case, it’s who.

I’m not sure what your point is, though. Are you suggesting that humans are destined to capitalism, in which case there is no choice and you can’t really put a moral judgement on it anymore than you can salt crystallizing. Or do you mean humans end up choosing capitalism, in which case can’t they choose something else and it’s not human nature after all?

cmeu OP ,

I don’t know what human nature truly is, or if there can be a singular definition.

However, judging by the historical record, we seem to be quite good at exploiting things and beings for our own benefit at their expense, which doesn’t really make a compelling case for worthiness

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks ,

Worthiness begs the question of a judge of worthiness. The Agents may not have liked us as part of a balanced ecology, but they found us worthy batteries, for example. But they’re made up, as I’d argue most other external judges or values are. Even if a human is making that judgement, worthy of what and why? More worth than X? To who? Why is their judgement worthy?

It’s a big can of worms and the deeper you go, the less clear it’s going to be. Maybe focus on a smaller bite for now.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@cmeu there's a book you might like called The World Without Us that you might find helpful.

It's a thought experiment written by a journalist about what exactly would happen to everything in the world if humans disappear tomorrow.

resketreke ,
@resketreke@kbin.social avatar

I think there was a documentary (or several) about this too. It looked interesting, but I never got to watch it in the end.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@resketreke good to know, will keep an eye out for it.

HerbalGamer ,
@HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

Miniseries on Discovery called Life After Humans

its_prolly_fine ,

Looking at global statistics the world is getting better. Not in global warming. But violence, freedom, wars, health. It’s hard to see because nobody talks about it. It’s easy to get stuck doom scrolling. But it’s not the whole picture. We as a global society agree slavery is bad. That is a pretty new concept in the history of our species. We went from the first powered flight to space in 50 years. That is insanity. Yes, there are lots of fucked up things we caused, but ultimately I believe in our ability to figure it out eventually. Everything we do and have done, is natural. We are a product of evolution just like every other living thing on this planet.

I think our world is amazing, and that includes humanity.

lordnikon , (edited )

To add to this population decline is just something that happens when people are in developed countries after they industrialize. when you don’t need to farm as much and can have time to do some leisure and entertain yourself and frankly after wormen get more rights and are not seen as properly. population levels out naturally but can decline faster when people are not given the means to support themselves children become a burden rather than the gift they should be. You put unions back to +60% like they were in the 50s and you will see a mini boom of children.

Also the world is wonderful. Most people are good even if some are misguided by fear and impulse. It was just a few dicks that ruined it knowingly for the rest of us everything else. we could have solved if we had more time.

If you want to pull back the curtain read up on the National Association of Manufacturers and a man called James W. Fifield Jr. More than half of our problems were caused by those men and the other by Henry Kissinger’s short sightness.

dependencyinjection ,

Leisure. Just in case you didn’t know.

NarrativeBear ,

The older I get the more I agree with Agent Smith.

xmunk ,

We’re worth it.

The universe is a dazzling beautiful place and we exist to observe it. We should definitely focus on living in a more compatible manner but even in our current shitty state we’re a net positive.

cmeu OP ,

I agree that existence is truly a wonder.

Yet I don’t see how everything else being great around us means we’re so great for just seeing it all… I’d ask, a net positive to what group? Our own, of course, because we procreate. But… at what cost? Does the cow share your zeal for humanity, you know

Is the point of existence merely for wonders to be observed?

xmunk ,

I think that’s precisely it. The universe is beautiful and we’re the portion of the universe that exists to appreciate that beauty.

It’s a very humanocentric view (or sentient-centric more accurate) but I think it’s fair and accurate. We definitely need to get our shit together though.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@xmunk I really don't understand this argument.

I's like a cockroach in my house claiming that it exists to appreciate my beauty.

Dude I don't need you to appreciate my beauty and meanwhile you're contaminating everything in my kitchen.

DreamerofDays ,

All meaning is constructed meaning, and, to quote Shakespeare, “there’s nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

We decide, collectively, and as individuals, what is positive and what is negative. We invent for ourselves, whole cloth or adopting from our elders, meaning in life, the universe, and everything.

That doesn’t mean they are without worth. The world is altered daily through the things people imagine. Money is an invention, its value existing in the collective imaginations of those who use it. Maps are not the lands they represent, but their cartography influences where people live, work, and travel. Numbers and maths are inventions— languages invented to describe the universe and its movings, but the universe moves without needing to know them…

… nevertheless, with those invented languages we orbit distant planets with artificial satellites, and create the wonderful bit of nonsense that allows us to communicate here.

We choose to find meaning in the world, and then we choose the meaning we find there. Ultimately everything else can be winnowed away, but that. I believe we have value because I choose to believe we have value, and I weigh the good of the world with the bad because I actively choose to continue to see both. It isn’t easy all the time, and it doesn’t have to be one way or the other. But it’s what I want for the world, and what I want for me.

Hegar ,
@Hegar@kbin.social avatar

There's no reason why we should be, we just are. Like everything else.

theodewere , (edited )
@theodewere@kbin.social avatar

his argument is never very good.. viruses are incomplete beings in every sense we care about.. the human being shares almost nothing in common with them conceptually.. we cooperate and care about each other in ways that are obviously not virus-like.. even when we fight, it's much more interesting than virus combat..

droning_in_my_ears ,

Again with this defeatist attitude huh.

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