There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

the agent's argument in the matrix

He said to Neo that humans are like a virus, breeding and infecting the world with our “stick” and general disgustingness.

I look around the world, at the state of society, the environment, international conflict and the enshitification of humanity - I’ve gone through my life blindly accepting that life for life’s sake is beautiful, and worth it.

But as I see the state of it all, our perpetual need to destroy each other over ideas and resources, I struggle to come to grips with it. Societies around the world are facing population shrinkage… Do they all know something I don’t?

Is human life beautiful, and objectively worth perpetuating? Or are we a blight? Why should we be?

xmunk ,

We’re worth it.

The universe is a dazzling beautiful place and we exist to observe it. We should definitely focus on living in a more compatible manner but even in our current shitty state we’re a net positive.

cmeu OP ,

I agree that existence is truly a wonder.

Yet I don’t see how everything else being great around us means we’re so great for just seeing it all… I’d ask, a net positive to what group? Our own, of course, because we procreate. But… at what cost? Does the cow share your zeal for humanity, you know

Is the point of existence merely for wonders to be observed?

xmunk ,

I think that’s precisely it. The universe is beautiful and we’re the portion of the universe that exists to appreciate that beauty.

It’s a very humanocentric view (or sentient-centric more accurate) but I think it’s fair and accurate. We definitely need to get our shit together though.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@xmunk I really don't understand this argument.

I's like a cockroach in my house claiming that it exists to appreciate my beauty.

Dude I don't need you to appreciate my beauty and meanwhile you're contaminating everything in my kitchen.

DreamerofDays ,

All meaning is constructed meaning, and, to quote Shakespeare, “there’s nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

We decide, collectively, and as individuals, what is positive and what is negative. We invent for ourselves, whole cloth or adopting from our elders, meaning in life, the universe, and everything.

That doesn’t mean they are without worth. The world is altered daily through the things people imagine. Money is an invention, its value existing in the collective imaginations of those who use it. Maps are not the lands they represent, but their cartography influences where people live, work, and travel. Numbers and maths are inventions— languages invented to describe the universe and its movings, but the universe moves without needing to know them…

… nevertheless, with those invented languages we orbit distant planets with artificial satellites, and create the wonderful bit of nonsense that allows us to communicate here.

We choose to find meaning in the world, and then we choose the meaning we find there. Ultimately everything else can be winnowed away, but that. I believe we have value because I choose to believe we have value, and I weigh the good of the world with the bad because I actively choose to continue to see both. It isn’t easy all the time, and it doesn’t have to be one way or the other. But it’s what I want for the world, and what I want for me.

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks ,

Do you think it’s inherently human nature to be this way or do you think there are other ways for humans to be? Maybe you’re conflating human nature with something else, like capitalism.

cmeu OP ,

Whom created capitalism, or any economic strategy?

capital ,

…wikipedia.org/…/Don't_throw_the_baby_out_with_th…

cmeu OP ,

How does this Wikipedia argument address whether or not we’re a blight, or if we should be?

xmunk ,

It raises the question on whether we’re a net positive (or, well, argues that we are). Humans do a lot of shitty things but on the whole it’s worth it.

HerbalGamer ,
@HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

the baby is humanity, capitalism the bathwater.

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks ,

Who. For nominative case, it’s who.

I’m not sure what your point is, though. Are you suggesting that humans are destined to capitalism, in which case there is no choice and you can’t really put a moral judgement on it anymore than you can salt crystallizing. Or do you mean humans end up choosing capitalism, in which case can’t they choose something else and it’s not human nature after all?

cmeu OP ,

I don’t know what human nature truly is, or if there can be a singular definition.

However, judging by the historical record, we seem to be quite good at exploiting things and beings for our own benefit at their expense, which doesn’t really make a compelling case for worthiness

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks ,

Worthiness begs the question of a judge of worthiness. The Agents may not have liked us as part of a balanced ecology, but they found us worthy batteries, for example. But they’re made up, as I’d argue most other external judges or values are. Even if a human is making that judgement, worthy of what and why? More worth than X? To who? Why is their judgement worthy?

It’s a big can of worms and the deeper you go, the less clear it’s going to be. Maybe focus on a smaller bite for now.

Randomgal ,

This is true only if you look at the news and look at it from an anthropocentric point of view. Humans being horrible for the environment doesn’t mean we can actually erase all life on Earth, it means we can change it enough that it will no longer support US, but life continues at its own rhythm, we are oarr of that rhythm, not separate from it.

Same with things like aggression. Aggression is the base behavior for carnivorous animals, but it is not for humans. One of the ways I’m which we mark the age of humanity is by looking at the oldest remains of a human which a healed leg fracture, a human that could could not contribute to their band and only could have survived with the help of other humans, compassion for unrelated others is a himan-only trait.

Are agent’s Smith’s words true? Yes, but incomplete, he is taking a few humans to characterize us all, but there is more to humanity than its animal behavior. This is what the movies are about.

deo ,

it means we can change it enough that it will no longer support US, but life continues at its own rhythm, we are oarr of that rhythm, not separate from it

We are not the first instance of life forever changing the environment to the point of mass extinction. When early cyanobacteria figured out photosynthesis, the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere they produced as waste killed off massive numbers of other species for which oxygen was toxic.

However, we are the first instance of life capable of understanding our place in the ecosystem enough to do something about how we as a species affect the biosphere and the pressure we are putting not just on other life forms but on ourselves as well. We are not mindless cyanobacteria pooping out oxygen to the detriment of all others; we can and MUST do better.

A huge part of that is understanding exactly what you pointed out: we are part of the ecosystem, not separate from it. I just wish someone could get the mega-wealthy and fossil fuel CEOs and politicians to understand it. There is no safety for them; their money and power will not save them.

droning_in_my_ears ,

Again with this defeatist attitude huh.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@cmeu there's a book you might like called The World Without Us that you might find helpful.

It's a thought experiment written by a journalist about what exactly would happen to everything in the world if humans disappear tomorrow.

resketreke ,
@resketreke@kbin.social avatar

I think there was a documentary (or several) about this too. It looked interesting, but I never got to watch it in the end.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@resketreke good to know, will keep an eye out for it.

HerbalGamer ,
@HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

Miniseries on Discovery called Life After Humans

afraid_of_zombies ,

Not really understanding your question. A virus isn’t alive. Life does not instinctively seek balance, it always act selfishly. Of all the life forms that have existed on this world only one got the idea that some moderation is called for.

marcos ,

All of life does that same thing, we are just more powerful than most species. We are also more responsible and restrained than most species. If you think life is a good thing, well, that’s what life does.

And none of that is a excuse for us to not improve, of course. With great power, and etc.

Flax_vert ,

Have you taken your meds today?

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •