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snooggums , (edited )
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

His daughter did not influence him. That makes it sounds like the daughter was the cause of him shifting right.

Musk reacted to the fact that his daughter was trans. His reaction was taking off his mask and being the piece of shit he already was more openly.

Edit: Not sure why I didn’t think to include it at the time, but the healine has a real “Husband beat wife because she burnt dinner.” vibe to it.

CaptainEffort ,

I think it’s more accurate to say that his reaction led him down toxic rabbit holes that warped his opinions and beliefs into what they are now.

Obviously we’ll never know, but I’ve personally known people who’ve genuinely changed as they got lost down various paths. Someone who’s indoctrinated into a cult, for example, obviously wasn’t indoctrinated as they came out of the womb. They weren’t always like that, it instead happened to them as some point.

crazyminner ,

This is the correct answer. These people have always been this shitty.

xantoxis ,

No she didn’t.

Elon Musk is what he always was. He wants you to scapegoat his daughter because that’s easy for him. He’s a piece of shit entirely on his own, don’t blame her for his vile nature.

borf ,

Classic TERF island headline. “Trans people turn billionaires into conservatives.” 🙄

jeffw OP ,
@jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

This article does a poor job of discussing Elon (but that’s not really the point of the article). Vivian has talked about how she felt Elon became more radical as she transitioned. That not blaming her, it’s listening to what she has to say

Scipitie ,

Oh your description is fitting but the headline is… Well I perceive it as poisonous, especially with the knowledge that headlines are often the only thing being read.

Chozo ,

I wouldn't say she influenced his extremist views, as much as she shined a light upon them.

superminerJG ,

So Elon was like gasoline and his daughter deciding to transition was a spark?

orcrist ,

No. Elon’s actions are 100% Elon’s choice. To use your metaphor, Elon was like gasoline, Elon saw his daughters decision, Elon picked up a lighter, and decided to set his brain on fire.

EleventhHour ,
@EleventhHour@lemmy.world avatar

No no no no NO!

This is some guilt-tripping, gaslighting, deflecting DARVO bullshit, and I won’t have it.

Bigots do not become bigots because of their exposure to “others”. When those of us who are “others” [refuse to tolerate the intolerance of others] (out of principle or justifiable self-defense) (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), their frustration and their lashing-out as a result is not our fault. Nobody can be held responsible for another individual’s lack of emotional self-control.

When people act out with violence, motivated by hate, fear, and ignorance, they are to blame— never the victims.

CaptainEffort ,

Someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another, are two separate things.

Family members going down toxic rabbit holes as a response to someone close to them coming out, is just that - a response to someone close to them coming out. It is quite literally cause and effect.

That doesn’t mean that the family member’s bigotry is the person’s problem though, nor should they feel any sense of blame whatsoever.

EleventhHour ,
@EleventhHour@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not talking about causing effect. What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet. The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord, and the family member who bravely chose to live as their own self is not to blame for that.

One thing may have led to the other, but that does not mean that one thing inherits responsibility or blame for the other.

t’s not so simple as an assumed reaction as you imply: it’s not one object striking another, transferring energy, and causing the next object to move. This other family member chooses hate and bigotry and then to act on those ideologies and feelings. That is not the same as the simple thing you reference.

CaptainEffort ,

What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet

Like I said, I completely agree with this. And,

The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord

while true, that chain of events was started when they, bravely, came out. It’s not their problem, nor should they feel any guilt whatsoever, as there’s nothing that they did wrong. But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.

That’s why I say that there’s a difference between someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another. The article simply states that she saw his radicalism start when she came out. Not that her coming out was somehow wrong. She’s literally just stating her truth. Her coming out started him on this path. And, that’s not her fault.

zazo ,

I would argue it isn’t direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.

I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people’s bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn’t actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that’s probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it’s what it sounded like from the outside)

CaptainEffort ,

That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.

Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.

zazo ,

but then why blame the people that are saying “uhm you really shouldn’t be joining a cult (bigotry) that harms everyone” instead of the cult leaders (the bigoted mouthpieces pushing harmful rhetoric)?

it’s like saying that if your family never made claims the earth is round you would have never looked up anything related to it and wouldn’t have become a flat earther.

idk maybe it’s just that as LGBTQ+ i don’t like to think that if i were to come out it would cause my family to turn into bigots (which just makes me never want to bring it up 🤷)

CaptainEffort ,

Huh? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment, but I’m not blaming the people who criticize cults. Lol I’m one of those people, fuck cults. Maga in particular.

And as for your example, it’s hard to make a cause and effect argument when the cause is something that didn’t happen.

A better example would be if someone told someone else that the earth is round, so that second person decided to look into it. Through that, they stumbled upon the flat earth theory, and eventually got sucked into it.

In that example, the person only became a flat earther because the other person told them the world is round. Is that the second person’s fault? Are they to blame? Absolutely not, they were just stating a fact. But the reality is that that event led this other person into becoming a flat earther. That’s just what happened.

And genuinely I’m sorry, I hope your family, if you decide to come out, accepts and loves you for you. I’ve sadly known quite a few people who have had to deal with fallout from that, especially those living in more southern states. It’s heartbreaking. I’ve also known people whose family’s love them to death and barely bat an eye. So whatever you choose, choose what you need, what makes you happiest, whatever that may be.

And in case my point wasn’t clear, or it sounds like I’m saying something else, let me be clearer: It is absolutely not their fault. Not in the slightest. Their family’s toxic bs is their family’s alone, it’s not their burden to bare.

zazo ,

I think we’re both describing the same flat earth argument - still my point is that while there is a correlation between the coming out and the subsequent radicalization, it would be overly simplistic to claim direct causation. The coming out event acted as a catalyst that revealed and perhaps accelerated pre-existing tendencies in the family member who became radicalized, but it did not cause the bigotry itself.

thank you for the kind words :)

CaptainEffort , (edited )

it would be overly simplistic to claim direct causation

Considering one simply wouldn’t have happened without the other, I have to disagree. I agree that maybe these people may have a predisposition to radicalization, but the fact remains that said predisposition was only exploited because of the events prior.

Bigotry, in some ways sadly, isn’t something that one is born with. It’s something that people develop, whether it’s from their parents, environment, or they’re radicalized over time as they explore toxic rabbit holes online. Whatever the case, these people at one point were just like anyone else. I’ve seen it happen to genuine, loving, progressive people firsthand. It’s tragic.

So, at least the way I see it, a family member learning that someone close to them has come out, being ignorant of it and looking into it online, and then finding themselves in radical spaces, isn’t an outlandish idea. I’d wager that a lot of radicals probably began their descent from an innocent enough place, only to get deeper and deeper until it was far too late.

And of course! Regardless of any of this, I genuinely wish you all the best.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.

“The husband wouldn’t have beaten his wife if she didn’t burn dinner.”

CaptainEffort , (edited )

Saying that the husband wouldn’t have beaten her if they hadn’t gotten married is a fact tho.

That doesn’t make it her fault for marrying him, she’s not responsible for his abuse. But the fact that it’s happening due to previous events is simply how the world works.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

I was making a point about violence, not a fucking wedding.

CaptainEffort ,

So you were making a point that had zero to do with my comment?

My comment was about how events inherently lead to other events. But that it doesn’t mean that anyone is to blame.

I can’t tell if you’re purposefully being obtuse or genuinely don’t understand what my comment was saying, or what my reply to yours implied.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

You replied to my post while missing the point of the post. I pointed that out.

Also, your point was meaningless and irrelevant other than trying to excuse away victim blaming. A wife burning dinner might be the catalyst for the husband to respond, but reasonable husbands wouldn’t beat her. They would react in some other way.

Burning dinner didn’t cause a beating any more than Musk’s daughter being trans caused him to be conservative. He was just a piece of shit and his daughter being trans highlighted that shittiness. She didn’t cause it.

CaptainEffort ,

Are you high? You didn’t post this, and you’re the one who replied to me first.

I’ve literally said multiple times that nobody is to blame, I’m genuinely starting to think you’re trolling or just looking to get into an argument for some reason. I’ve probably said that nobody should feel any guilt whatsoever, that they did nothing wrong, at least three separate times now.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

You have been excusing victim blaming by saying it is just cause and effect from your first post. That is excusing victim blaming in the same way as the article.

CaptainEffort ,

I’m not excusing anything, I’m saying that in reality events lead to other events. This is just how things work, it isn’t an opinion or a slight, it’s objective fact.

Anyways, please reread the end of my last comment to you. I really can’t spell out any clearer that the victim is in no way to blame.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Museums are the place to display nazi propaganda. Individuals who display nazi propaganda are nazis or at least fine with promoting nazi propaganda.

I guess they could have disclaimers for context like a museum that would mean they are trying to educate viewers on how horrible the nazis were, but I doubt it. They should probably leave it to the museums.

orcrist ,

First of all, what you said was not stated in the article, and it should have been, so they could at least pretend they weren’t victim blaming. As it is, they can’t even pretend, they’re stuck with people like you apologizing for their worthless drivel.

Second, you’re speculating that the family members went down toxic rabbit holes as a response. I think it’s just as likely that they already went down those rabbit holes, but others didn’t know about it, because they didn’t have occasion to proclaim their feelings. Which is to say, the damage had already been done, but you didn’t know it.

CaptainEffort ,

I agree that it should’ve been stated in the article, I’m not apologizing for them not doing so. I’m just reiterating what his daughter’s perception is, and that the reality of that isn’t “wrong”, as it’s entirely possible that his descent, if it was a descent, happened as a result.

Once again, this is literally how she saw things play out. That’s all the information we have, anything else is speculation, including the notion that he was like, born a bigot. Unfortunately these toxic ideas aren’t born with people, they’re infected with them at some point. And like I’ve said, I’ve personally witnessed it happen to genuinely terrific people.

So unless we all plan on ignoring Vivian’s own words, I don’t think there’s much more that can be said. And regardless, none of this was my point anyway. My point was literally that the title of the article isn’t wrong, and that something being caused by another can be possible without anyone being at fault for it.

Lemming6969 ,

OP is an idiot. That’s like saying exposure to anything doesn’t precipitate a response. It does.

His response or change may be directly caused by his experiences. We also have no idea what their interactions were.

CaptainEffort ,

I agree, but I don’t think OP is an idiot, imo it’s a totally valid response to have. I mean think of all the people that have come out, had their families lose their minds, and then be directly blamed for it.

Seeing a title like this and assuming that it’s assigning blame, even when its Vivian herself just stating the chain of events, is understandable when this is such a problem in the community.

Xeroxchasechase ,

Not enough upvotes for this comment

orcrist ,

F*** this article. Don’t even read the article. The title says it all.

My summary: “Blame the victim. Blame the trans person for their family member acting a fool. It only got bad after the trans person came out. It’s all the trans person’s fault.”

To hell with that.

MerchantsOfMisery ,

Exactly my thoughts. Straight up blaming the victim, who was a child at the time of Musk going public with the right wing views he’s had for decades.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

A child he barely had a relationship with. In her NBC interview, she said that, despite having equal custody, she was with her mother 90% of the time and some of the time with her father was for PR for his companies.

He also tried to get her to be masculine and insulted her for being queer even before she came out.

This is utter bullshit.

MerchantsOfMisery ,

The guy’s a complete clown and I find it funny how conservatives who never stfu about single black mothers give guys like Musk a complete pass, despite the guy having something insane like 11 kids and being such a blatantly obviously absentee father, clearly because he cares more about the pursuit of money and clout than caring for his kids.

daniskarma ,

He was always a far right crazo.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

There has been no shift to the right. He’s always been on the right. Just because he makes electric cars doesn’t mean he’s some ultra-leftie. He saw an opportunity to invest in a promising technology and he did it. Then he threw the public some bones about environmentalism that he doesn’t actually care about to make more money.

Also, I, for one, am glad black men have mostly stopped radically influencing white people from public lynchings these days.

OhStopYellingAtMe ,
@OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world avatar

Elon Musk’s transgender daughter brought his far-right bigotry to light. A lot of trans people have family members like him.

FTFY

whyNotSquirrel ,
@whyNotSquirrel@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah don’t blame Elon’s stupidity on her!

norimee ,

I’m confused. I don’t see any victim blaming in the article. Most of the article is lending a voice to trans/NB people to tell how hard it is, when someone in their family is bigoted and anti trans to begin with and how they, instead of trying to understand, doubled down on their hatred and bigotry and became nasty after they came out.

People do not become right wing bigots, because they have a trans child or cousin. But for some its hard to confront their own bigotry when suddenly the thing they “fear” is in their own backyard. So they react the opposite and burrow down deeper in right wing hatred.

Can we not acknowledge that this is an effect often hapening in right wing families when a family member comes out? That doesnt mean the coming out is at fault. Its bigots doubling down on their bigotry, because they can not, like normal people, reflect on their stance and admit, that maybe they were wrong.

Soulg ,

Yeah but it’s easier to just claim outrage at the click bait title and not read the article tbf

bastion ,

Why get nuanced when you can get owned?

Sconrad122 ,

Vivian was victimized by her father’s heartless disregard and rejection of her identity. Elon is now going around stating a narrative that her coming out to him is at least a significant contributing reason he is a fascist (“I lost my son to the woke mind virus”), a narrative that this headline plays directly into. You can take the same sequence of facts and headline it as “Musk is going public with the same bigotry that he wielded against his transgender daughter. A lot of trans people have family members like him” that doesn’t make it sound like Elon Musk would have been politely building his rockets and evs in a corner if only his daughter hadn’t come out as trans, and doesn’t make it sound like Vivian indirectly donated 10s of millions of dollars to Trump’s 2024 campaign by coming out as someone that that exact campaign wants to suppress. The headline as written is almost a threat to closeted trans people. “Yeah, your parents may be Schrodinger’s bigots right now, but come out and they will go full scorched earth to dehumanize you and you will be responsible for their shift”.

I’m pretty sure you are agreeing that that isn’t the case, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the text of the article is also aligned against that message, but the headline (probably written by an editor hungry for rage clicks) is solidly aligned to it, and should be called out for that

norimee ,

This is what her hot air balloon of a excuse for a farher said, not the article. Be angry and speak out against Elon Musks bigotry. Not about what you “think” an article you actually didn’t read might have said because of your interpretation of a headline.

We all should know by now that this click bait shit is all hot air most of the time, so why play into it?

I feel like a lot of people here still have to learn how to deal with todays sensationalist internet media. Don’t believe everything you (didn’t) read at first glance.

If you consume todays “news” only by headlines, without looking behind it and using your own common sense and critical thinking, you are bound to come out with a very distorted world view.

lolcatnip ,

The headline is written as a factual statement, not a quoted opinion. It therefore endorses the idea that Musk’s daughter turned him into a fascist. Everyone knows most people stop reading after the headline, so a headline that only stops being misleading when you read the article is just misleading.

sandbox ,

People shouldn’t criticise clickbait headlines?

This kind of headline probably has a fucking body count, and you’re wringing your hands over it.

Nuke_the_whales ,

My dad is very conservative but hates Trump and his racism etc. But he’s always been anti LGBT etc cause of religion. Fast forward to now and one of his grand children is trans and the other gay. My siblings and I have taken a stance of “if you don’t like it there’s the door” and we’ve given him no option but to accept it unless he wants to die alone. It forced him to at least watch what he says and to shut the fuck up about his opinions he’s not willing to change.

dodgy_bagel ,

At last last we found the architect of all of society’s woes: Vivian Wilson.

It was the transes all along! (/s)

Facebones ,

Fuck this victim blaming ass headline. Not clicking on it.

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

I know from some experience that parents eventually make peace with their children for cultural differences like these, at least some of them do

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Elon Musk doesn’t give a shit about his kids, he’s just a weirdo with a breeding fetish.

timewarp ,
@timewarp@lemmy.world avatar

Like his dad

Kashmir ,

I’m so tired of hearing about this guy.

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