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FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, the damage has already been done.

girlfreddy ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Dad’s Place (has) filed a federal lawsuit against the city, accusing officials of violating the church’s constitutional rights. The lawsuit has not been withdrawn from the court system.

Good. I hope Dad’s place keeps going with the lawsuit, and wins.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

It's not quite so simple, IMO.

The city said Avell’s church was not properly zoned for residential usage, and that serious fire code violations were found throughout the building during repeat inspections.

It would be an even bigger tragedy if the place burned down while packed with trapped people. Presumably part of the conditions are to fix this issue.

MagicShel ,

Risking a fire is bad, but it’s still probably better than the more imminent risk of exposure to the elements.

Rivalarrival , (edited )

Fuck that noise.

My family converted a residential structure to commercial. We had to add fire protection, with sprinklers and additional exit doors. Fire protection requirements are significantly more stringent in commercial structures than residential. This wasn’t due to fire code.

Zoning allows it to operate as a church, where a lot more than a dozen people will be present. Zoning considered it safe enough to offer such services to the public.

He temporarily changed his operating hours from Sunday mornings to 24/7 for the duration of an emergency. There is no significantly greater risk from fire to these occupants than to the church’s regular congregants.

No, it might have very well met residential zoning requirements, even though it was not actually zoned residential. If it did not meet requirements, the most likely reason would be a lack of shower/bathtub, or a lack of closets or windows in spaces designated as “bedrooms”.

If he were offering housing under normal conditions, yes, there would be a problem. But he’s not. He’s offering shelter and respite - church services - at a church on an emergency basis.

BossDj ,

Go try to find Dad’s Place on Google maps. You’ll see it’s not even a church.

Dkarma ,

Church doesn’t mean the building. It means how the organization is registered federally for tax purposes. It could be in a trailer.

BossDj ,

When we’re talking about residential zoning, we’re talking about the building

Rivalarrival ,

It’s likely zoned commercial. It looks like it operates out of a retail storefront. Whatever it is zoned, the fact is that the city has no problem with typical church services: many members of the public congregating within the building.

They only had a problem when a handful of people stayed the night on an emergency basis.

BossDj ,

It has alley access behind the storefront haha.

Anyway, I’m getting hit for this one, but my intention was to defend that the city wasn’t just being sick, anti homeless villains. There were warnings, etc. The building next door has people who stay overnight (it’s a halfway house), so this couple COULD have done some paperwork, petitions, or upgrades, but instead chose to hire extreme right wing lawyers to make a media circus

Rivalarrival ,

You’re right, you’re going to get hit for that one.

If the city were arguing that the building itself was not safe for occupancy, you’d have a point. If they were trying to shut down the entire facility, OK. But they weren’t. The problems didn’t come up until they opened their doors 24/7.

BossDj ,

Deregulate everything then I guess if a person wants to do something on a whim. Fuck you, safety professionals, I know better than you.

The charges were dropped because the church caved to the city requirements.

The church agreed to stop housing people until they get the correct permits, which they could have done to begin with. Permits exist so that a professional can inspect and deem something correctly equipped. The church made all of the necessary fixes to the building that were required to make it safe, which again they could have done before. I’d wager that the community or city itself might have tossed money their way to get it done faster had they tried instead of pushing their anti government rhetoric.

They hired a political action cash grab hack “lawyer group” that made up lies and got the media to attack the city. For example, the building next door isn’t a come and go homeless shelter that’s overwhelmed. It’s a halfway house with an interview process and a limited number of people live there longer term. And no, they didn’t quickly react to open their doors because it was freezing out and they needed to save lives. They’ve been doing this, and had opportunities to fix the problem. They chose to ignore codes.

I’m not trying to be insensitive to homeless. They deserve shelter without strings attached (fuck the “you can come in, but cold turkey your addiction!” bullshit). And even though I hate these blue lives matter assholes running the church, they seemed to have good intentions with this situation (but who knows, I don’t trust extremists).

But this was an easily rectifiable situation that they decided to go “muh constitution” instead of working with the city.

ArtieShaw ,
@ArtieShaw@kbin.social avatar

Thanks for digging into this a little further. It seems like small town news stories that get national attention don't always paint a full picture, particularly when there's an obvious moral high ground and an obvious victim or villain. I had several questions, because the story wasn't adding up.

What sort of monster would object to sheltering homeless in a cold snap? The entire city government, including the fire department?

There's an established shelter next door. Why did no one object to that? <thanks for answering this one, btw>

Since when did small towns in northwest Ohio start persecuting churches for no apparent reason? (for anyone out of the US, this population tends to be deep red GOP, very devout churchgoers, etc.)

This isn't the first time there has been a cold spell. It happens at least once a year in January or February. Do the homeless in this tiny town just freeze to death every year?

There's clearly a lot more to the story, but with national coverage like this I'd guess they were able to take in enough donations to cover basic repairs to the property.

BossDj ,

I don’t see it as government refusing to allow shelter in a cold snap or persecuting the church. They didn’t go kick everyone out. The city gave notices that in order to do so, the building must be up to code. I read it as they supported the venture, but wanted the safety in place just like anywhere else, which the church ignored more than once.

Pre-national attention they could have done this. Pre “cold snap” they could have done this. The couple (a husband and wife run the church) did a ton of investing in this building, installing showers and rooms, etc. They just ignored the safety pieces that they decided weren’t important.

Next door is less a shelter than halfway house. It has around a dozen people at any given time who live there long term and who are screened and only allowed to stay if they promise to praise the Lord and volunteer at a church (this is not hyperbole). They do not take in people during a cold snap.

I’m not sure about the general homeless situation in Ohio. Most states open winter shelters during cold snaps, which I’m sure Ohio did, but tons of them can require no needles, drug use, etc so the people just don’t go. I don’t know if that’s the case here.

However, when I was looking into that halfway house, it seems tons of people used to wait around a nearby park as they waiting for their appointments, and could wait several days hoping for a spot. This seemed to be at least a portion of the church population

ShepherdPie ,

So does this city have specific church zoning or something? It’s not clear what your point is or what specifically makes a building "a church. "

BossDj ,

The basics of zoning come down to county or city, but this building happened to be zoned commercial (it’s attached to a taco restaurant) but surrounded by various support services buildings. There’s a veterans place along the same alley road.

But zoning determines the safety expectations of a building, as well as several other things (noise allowances, vehicles, etc).

Yes there is technically church zoning for tax purposes. I guess I misspoke saying “it’s not even a church”. These two used to run a church service from their home, but then they bought that commercial space, as many churches do in rural places. My point was this isn’t what your brain imagines when you say church, it’s a warehouse space that was converted. So definitely not structured for residential safety, which is different than commercial

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It was a critical emergency.

I think that risk of the place burning down would have been worth taking if he were allowed.

BossDj ,

They’ve done this repeatedly over time before the government response. They, over time, installed amenities. They could get clearance/zoning for overnight people, like the building right next door to them (a halfway house), but they are extremists who refused to try to work with the government to make it legit

girlfreddy ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

They they they

Maybe WE should stop treating unhoused people like pests to be eradicated.

Maybe WE should push our gov’ts to tax the f’k out of corporate-owned housing and use the money to invest in affordable housing.

Maybe WE should remember when WE point fingers at others, there’s 3 fingers pointed back at us.

BossDj ,

They got married and have sex together, too. What do you say to that?

**I’ve been speaking about the married couple who run the church

Evkob ,
@Evkob@lemmy.ca avatar

If they’re that concerned about the safety of homeless people, maybe they could help the overcrowded shelter, or help with repairs to the church?

It’s pretty disingenuous to say “this is for their well-being and safety!” and then immediately throw them back out on the street.

winky9827b ,

100%

shalafi ,

Because the homeless people were in there once. There will be a congregation every Sunday.

ShepherdPie ,

Funny that these serious code violations weren’t an issue until the city pulled this bone headed move. It’s like when police shoot an unarmed man and then bring up a possession of marijuana conviction from 20 years prior.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

The point of things like the fire code is to ensure that if, for example, you've got 20 people sleeping in a building the building is set up to be able to get those people out easily if it catches on fire. So it's not a problem until you've got 20 people sleeping in the building. If the building's only safe for 4 people sleeping in it then there's no fire code problem if 4 people are sleeping in it. It only becomes a problem when you cram 20 people in there.

Xanis ,

This isn’t the point people were trying to make. It’s the slowly growing frustration that people feel as they hear time and time again how people in power only take notice of someone when they try to help others who need it.

Amongst other growing social issues, this one is especially obvious in most cases.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

It's the point I'm trying to make. The place wasn't shut down arbitrarily for no reason, it was shut down (or rather prevented from becoming an impromptu homeless shelter) because it wasn't safe.

If this had been allowed to carry on without fuss and then there was a fire that killed dozens of homeless people the headlines would have been blaring about how the city was responsible for those deaths. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

ShepherdPie ,

It also wasn’t safe for those homeless people to be sleeping outside in frigid temperatures. When weighing the options, would you rather have them sleep in a heated area that allegedly isn’t safe (though perfectly safe for congregants to congregate during normal hours) or sleep outside where they’ll most likely freeze to death? I don’t thinking people would have such an issue if there were a legitimate alternative available but there wasn’t.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

There's a big difference between sleeping in a place overnight and just standing around "congregating" there, from a fire safety standpoint.

This is not a one-off issue. The place has been repeatedly failing fire inspections. If the guy wants to use it as a homeless shelter then he needs to fix those issues.

ShepherdPie ,

Nobody is arguing that the building should remain unsafe. We’re pointing out that the alternative for those who stayed there would likely have been freezing to death sleeping outside. The place didn’t burn down obviously, so it was definitely the right call to have them sleep in the church during the cold snap.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

They lucked out this time. That's a lousy basis on which to judge building codes. Every building that burned down and killed dozens in the process spent many days not burning down first.

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