IDF fails to confirm Gaza hostages' cause of death, mother claims poison

deegeese , 5 months ago

IDF killing hostages is nothing new, but using poison gas is a brand new war crime.

JustZ , 5 months ago

Using poison gas is nothing new too because there is no evidence that that’s what happened other than the wild speculation of a grieving mother. There are plenty of things that can cause poisonous gas to accumulate underground. How could she possibly know the source?

Doorbook , 5 months ago

Do you work for the IDF or are you an Israeli? You defending them like they cannot do war crimes or anything wrong… which statistically impossible, almost every army commit war crimes…

JustZ , 5 months ago

Nah read my posts. It’s a complex situation.

FuglyDuck , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

“The results of the investigation: Ron was indeed murdered,” she wrote. “Not by Hamas. Think more in the direction of Auschwitz and the showers but without Nazis and without Hamas as the cause. No accidental shooting, no report, premeditated murder, bombings with poisonous gases.”

According to her, the IDF filled the tunnel in which he was held with gas, and his son was poisoned to death.

“Ron was kidnapped because of the criminal negligence of all the senior officials of the army and the damned government who gave the order to eliminate him in order to settle a score with some terrorist from Jabalya.” The mother claimed that “they found that he also had several crushed fingers, apparently due to his desperate attempts to get out of the poison grave that the IDF buried in him when he tried to breathe air, but he only breathed IDF poison. There is no future for this country if this is what they did to you after they abandoned you that Saturday. What was the decision if Bibi’s son was there in the terrorist’s tunnel or Gallant’s grandson? Or the son of Hertzi Halevi? Would they also have been poisoned with gas bombs?”

-FTA, the mother’s statements.

civilian casualties will happen in war. there’s pretty much nothing that will stop that. Civilian casualties will always skyrocket though, when you use indiscriminate weapons… like gas attacks…

sirboozebum , 5 months ago

I wonder how many Palestinian civilians have been killed with poison gas.

According to the US and it’s Western allies:

Syrian army using gas is a war crime.

IDF using gas is perfectly fine.

FuglyDuck , 5 months ago

Idunno.

I’m going to preface this with saying I believe it’s a war crime and we should be sanctioning Israel every bit as much as we’ve sanctioned Russia.

But a critical distinction might be getting made in how the poison gas is getting used. Like with white phosphorus- use as a smoke screen away from civilians is okay, use as shelling over civilians… not so much.

It’d be a bullshit technicality that the tunnels are enclosed and they believe no civilians are in there… but it’s an argument I could see working to satisfy my stupid, super-pac-addicted president.

mozz , 5 months ago

Interestingly enough I was assured by someone a couple days ago that Jerusalem Post was all pro-Israel propaganda, and I therefore couldn't trust a word out of its mouth. Apparently that person was grossly mistaken.

hannes3120 , 5 months ago

If they publish something you don’t like it’s always easier to attack the source than the article.

NoneOfUrBusiness , 5 months ago

They're not all pro-Israel propaganda, but they definitely have a significant pro-Israeli bent and need to be fact-checked.

mozz , 5 months ago

I mean, everybody does. Most things you read are going to be "only one side of the story" in one sense or another. I've just observed that a lot of Lemmy people jump very easily to "that source is biased I can reject everything in it completely" even when that source is publishing things like this that clearly do not have the bias they're claiming.

Linkerbaan , 5 months ago

A weapon banned by the Geneva convention because it indiscriminately murders everyone in the vicinity means that it’s effective right? - israel

JustZ , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

What weapon?

Cause of death is undetermined. Family says no gunshots so it must be gas. Probably. Doesn’t mean it was a weapon. All sorts of gases underground. Could have been a fire somewhere else in the tunnels. Could have been a generator running down there filling it up with carbon monoxide. Could have been the percussive blast of bombs falling nearby. This story is entirely speculation.

Linkerbaan , 5 months ago

Israeli army gassed my son ‘like Auschwitz,’ mother of slain Israeli soldier says

Israel has refused to divulge further information regarding the circumstances of the deaths, stating in a press release that “it cannot be denied nor confirmed that they were killed due to strangulation, suffocation, poisoning, or as the result of an IDF [Israeli Defense Forces] attack or Hamas operation.” But Sherman’s mother says all the evidence indicates the Israeli government deliberately killed her son.

OccamsTeapot , 5 months ago

Most moral army in the world poisons hostages it claims to be trying to rescue

JustZ , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

Close to where the bodies were found, the IDF attacked a tunnel in which the commander of the northern division of Gaza, Ahmad Al Ghandour… The investigation shows that at the time of the attack, the IDF did not know about the presence of hostages in the area. Also, the forces who found their bodies during searches in the tunnel did not have prior intelligence about their presence.

OccamsTeapot , 5 months ago

So one of their objectives is rescuing hostages, and they can’t check before they poison a bunch of people? At this point the IDF has killed more hostages than it has saved. I don’t think it’s just bad luck. They. Don’t. Care.

JustZ , 5 months ago

It’s not like they know their way around these tunnels. They were built to be hard to navigate and built to conceal people and contraband.

Bottom line bud, if there was a fire anywhere near a shaft, heavier-than-air gases will sink downward into tunnels. Have you ever heard stories about someone goes down even into a root cellar or something and then passes out, and three more people go down after them one a time and all succumb?

You’re attributing to malice what is easily explained by basic physics and coincidence.

Doorbook , 5 months ago

Yes these hostages who were killed waving the white flag can also be explained by coincidence.

JustZ , 5 months ago

Do you understand how these two events are and are not connected? They are independent events.

That one was a war crime. It’s very normal to be angry about that. Try not to let that inject logical fallacies into your thoughts process about unrelated events, though.

snek , 5 months ago

This would make more sense if the IDF didn’t have a track record of killing Palestinians on purpose and Israelis “by mistake”.

JustZ , 5 months ago

That’s not evidence of what happened on this occasion, it’s rote speculation and conjecture.

snek , 5 months ago

I agree that the mother may be speculating on what’s written between the lines in the report, but can you blame her since all IDF operations only brought a single hostage back alive?

If you look at each individual incident, you may be able to come up with some excuse that could seem very flimsy to some (like myself), but what about putting them all together? The big picture looks grim for Israel. Field executions, destroying infrastructure, starving the population… With a genocide case looming, I see why Israel sympathizers and Zionists would like to focus on the nitty gritty details of fake IDF reports (you don’t deem them fake of course), because it distracts from the extensively large tapestry of blood and ethnic cleansing that Israel been weaving for us to see day after day for the past 3 months on television, gore and all.

JustZ , 5 months ago

I can separate the right wing conservatives that are in Israel from the country and people of Israel. And because it’s a democracy, there’s a chance that in my lifetime the people there will throw these right wing pieces of shit perpetrating some of the war crimes you’ve described out of office or the military and into prison.

I can also see, and apparently I am the only one here, that it isn’t all of one thing or all of the other thing. There are some members of the IDF that have been radicalized by the intellectual rot of nationalism into being fine with some atrocities. That’s why there’s a video of an IDF tank mowing down a group of people with white flags that turned out to be hostages. One or even dozens of illegal acts in war does not make the war itself illegal.

snek , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

No, you’re right, it is not the few bad apples in the IDF spoiling the bunch and making it an illegal war or a war crime…

It’s actually all the other things the IDF did that makes it a genocide and war crime. Like turning the water off, making aid slow and kafkaesque, putting aid workers in danger so Palestinians can die of starvation, and destroying every university building (I think all seven have been destroyed).

It’s not Tamar or Ariel who killed a whole family in a summary execution that are the problem… It’s the entire platoon. They are not a “few dozen”.

I often wonder what kind of denial you are in given your comments because the rest of us wake up to a “few dozen” war crimes every day with no end in sight.

JustZ , 5 months ago

A few dozen every day? Maybe if all you do is watch TikTok videos and if you believe everything you read.

The media makes it sounds like thousands of civilians have been bombed on refugee camps or on humanitarian routes. As of last week there had been less than 100 deaths in such a circumstances. That’s not the story that people are hearing, though.

I had a comment deleted as false information because I said 99.996% of Palestinians were still alive. Mod “corrected” me and said “it’s actually 1% of the population.” Notwithstanding, it is absolutely correct that 99.996% of Palestinians are still alive (actual Palestinians killed is 0.004%).

See, even one of our mods got tricked here. Perhaps you’ve been tricked just enough times with regard to Israel and Hamas that your sympathies are with the side that actually bombs their neighbor indiscriminately and that actually targets women and children on purpose?

If the putative aggressor is three months in, going on four, of committing genocide, and only 0.004% of the people they’re allegedly trying to genocide have been killed, I don’t think anyone can reasonably call it genocide. At this rate of civilian deaths, if the actual true goal is genocide, as you suggest, it will take Israel another 6,250 years. Hmm weird, they certainly have the capability of wiping out every structure in Gaza and the West Bank within a matter of hours. Doesn’t that make you think, hey maybe I’ve been tricked?

snek , 5 months ago

I don’t watch Tiktok. My information is from respectable Journalists and human rights organization. Your information is from the IDF. Do you not recognize the issue here?

JustZ , 5 months ago

Most of my info on background is from public records of the State Department, White House, and CIA, as well as legal briefs and law reviews. I consider these primary sources on which I’ve formed my own opinions. I’m certainly not here regurgitating talking points. Happy to admit when I am wrong and learn from it, in this and any other aspect of life.

snek , 5 months ago

Wouldn’t it be wiser to diversify your sources? For example, why not B’Tselem? Why not HRW or the UN?

JustZ , 5 months ago

Sure, UN, too. I’ve read docs from HRW. I didn’t put NGOs on my list but certainly NGOs. Even think tanks sometimes are good for historical background, especially on histories or timelines or US relations with a particular foreign country. Wikipedia is a great aggregator for following a war, starting point for events or places that I’m unfamiliar with as I learn.

Hey, you seem very smart too and you’re asking intelligent questions. I suppose a younger me would have answered them much like you. October 7 significantly changed the calculus.

snek , 5 months ago

So when the UN says that Israel is starving Palestinians in Gaza as a war weapon , is that showing both intent and action towards genocide? 🤔

HRW seem to think Biden supporting Israel with weapons is also illegal given the war crimes and genociding Israel does right and left. When I read the reports from HRW or the UN who themselves have lost over 100 of their employees in violent deaths in Gaza, I can’t help but think the IDF use flimsy excuses to cover their crimes or deny them or say woopsie.

For example the Al-Israa University building they demolished recently? Israel is now saying it’s investigating why it’s doing that (I think that was on ToI yesterday), but the brilliant journalist Matt Lee from AP makes a good point in this exchange with the US State Department Spokespam: if the it was safe enough to plant demolition explosives which takes lots of time and work, why was it dangerous enough to blow up?

Unless of course the goal of Israel currently is destroy so much infrastructure in Gaza to make it unlibeable to the point that would make people die of famine or force them to leave, ethnic cleansing either way.

You said you read reports from US officials and IDF. What have they said about this university? And what would it look like if the IDF was wrong to demolish it but the US wanted to cover their ass?

JustZ , 5 months ago

Re: Al-Isras. This only happened four days ago so info is limited. I agree that if it is proven that the University buildings were destroyed for no reason other than to destroy vital infrastructure, that is evidence of genocide.

Looking at the video, it looks absolutely nothing like a controlled demolition. I don’t know what Matt Lee is looking at; and the entirety of his questioning is based on that false premise (that since it was a controlled demolition, it look a lot of planning and set up and obviously it was safe to go inside to set the charges, “it looks like a building bekng imploded”).

Obviously you may watch the video for yourself, but it looks absolutely nothing like Mike Lee described. He is lying.

It is a single, massive explosion that send debris out in every direction. It’s not in any sense of the word is it an implosion or controlled. It very clearly appears to be an airstrike to me, or perhaps a single large satchel charge. I also note that before the explosion, the building already looks like it’s been bombed out and is partially collapsed. I wonder if there was fighting with Hamas there during the time Israel used the buildings as a command center?

I don’t see an official explanation from IDF or the US or anyone. But I expect one will come out and due course.

A related point here, that I’ve been making, is that the tunnel systems under Gaza and elsewhere in Palestinian territory, including some tunnels in the West bank, are just and moral targets for Israel to destroy. It is most unfortunate that Hamas decided to construct those tunnels under vital civilian infrastructure. When the tunnels are now being destroyed, it makes such infrastructure unstable and unsafe and virtually all of Gaza City is uninhabitable from a structural engineering standpoint because of the tunnels, and will remain so until it is paved over and rebuilt. Significantly, the people of Gaza have neither the ability nor capacity to rebuild.

snek , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

I agree with you, I watched it again and watched compilations of controlled explosions and it doesn’t look the same (likely due to the debris hiding anything from plain view). I wonder if anyone on lemmy would be more of an expert on this. Still, they had time to go in and plant explosives.

But the IDF itself said it was a controlled explosion.

A screenshot taken from the Times of Israel website. Title: IDF says it is probing demolition of campus in Gaza last week, after US voiced ire. Subtitle: Military says it is looking into approval process for controlled explosion at Israa University; initial findings say Hamas used grounds to conduct attacks on troops. Posted on January 21st

So now that we have established this…

Why would the IDF bomb a university campus, forcing Gazans to rebuild? I think the IDF destroyed . Why do that at all?

But of course your next explanation always comes to the rescue in such questions

wonder if there was fighting with Hamas there during the time Israel used the buildings as a command center?

Do you see how the whole “command center/hamas-did-it/human-shields” trope is what allows the IDF to bomb anyone and anything and kill any child, woman, or man without repercussions? You’re smart, surely you understand that you are here making speculations to excuse inexcusable IDF behavior?

Also somehow it’s okay for Israel to use the university as a command center, but not a resistance group fighting a colonialist power? I mean… you make anything okay for Israel, anything justified, no matter how ugly.

The IDF could kill your mother at this point and you would still go online and say “wonder if there was a Hamas tunnel in her house?”

OccamsTeapot , 5 months ago

Notwithstanding, it is absolutely correct that 99.996% of Palestinians are still alive (actual Palestinians killed is 0.004%).

Sorry I don’t understand this number at all. Can you explain your math?

(Over 23k killed ÷ 2.3 million in Gaza) × 100% = Over 1%, surely?

OccamsTeapot , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

Coincidence? Are you suggesting that poisonous gases were only coincidentally released into Gaza? Or that it’s just coincidental that there were hostages there? In the tunnels. Where even we know they would obviously be.

Edit. Just also want to share the quote from the mother of one of the people the IDF killed:

“The results of the investigation: Ron was indeed murdered,” she wrote. “Not by Hamas. Think more in the direction of Auschwitz and the showers but without Nazis and without Hamas as the cause. No accidental shooting, no report, premeditated murder, bombings with poisonous gases.”

JustZ , 5 months ago

Yes his presence. I saw the mother’s quote. The actual report said the cause of death could not be determined due to the condition of the body. This is the sole report I’ve heard from anyone in the course of war suggesting the use of poisonous gas as a weapon and for that reason it’s just not credible.

More likely, the woman misunderstood the report or, as many here have done, attributed to malice what is better explained by bad luck.

From context and reading between the lines, I could see the report stating that the man suffocated from smoke and fumes before being burned in a fire. That would be consistent with both the IDF and the mother’s statements.

snek , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

The IDF seems to always say “we can’t confirm” or “we had no activity in the area” or “we don’t know maybe a Palestinian shot this journalist in the head even though we extracted a standard IDF bullet from her head” every time they do something terrible.

I don’t think THAT’S a coincidence.

JustZ , 5 months ago

Sometimes they say that. Most of the time though they say “yeah we conducted an airstrike and killed X number of Hamas militants.”

And of course Hamas says every single time “nope those were innocent people just going about their day.”

Some of them have to be Hamas, right? So, in my view, they have less credibility. Denying their own existence is part of their strategy of martyrdom. If they admit Israel really did kill a bunch of Hamas soldiers, that doesn’t push the right narrative for Hamas and Iran.

snek , 5 months ago

I mean, when you kill 100 and like 48 are children, is that an acceptable price to pay to maybe 50/50 get a chance at killing a Hamas commander?

Is this acceptable to you as a person?

snek , 5 months ago

Some of them have to be Hamas, right?

Some of them might be innocent civilians, right?

It doesn’t bother you that Israel turned them into sacrificial lambs?

JustZ , 5 months ago

Hamas put those people in harm’s way. They were told to get out of Gaza City.

bigMouthCommie , 5 months ago

the harm came from Israeli weapons

snek , 5 months ago

I am not asking about Hamas. I am asking about YOU.

Would it be acceptable to YOU to kill countless neighbours and many members of your own family in an explosion because the IDF has determined that a Hamas tunnel runs under your house? Would it be acceptable to YOU personally to take your family out of the zones to a Safe Zone and get killed there anyway? Is there anything on this earth that is worth your daughter being blown to pieces and you having to carry the remains of her limbs in a plastic bag? Because that actually happened to one man.

Please answer.

JustZ , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

You’re asking like seven different questions. It bothers me very much that Hamas started a war from a military base it built under that man’s home and as a result the man’s daughter got killed. I’m sure the man had no idea. I mean it’s a city of 18 square miles with 800 tunnel shafts and millions of cubic yards of dirt having to be removed, dug with heavy equipment, tunnel shafts inside all kinds of public schools and apartment buildings and so forth. If it were me personally, I would have sent out a massive emergency broadcast warning people to get out before I destroyed the tunnels, and probably saying that I was coming for Hamas and anyone with them.

I suppose that man picking up his daughter’s body parts is exactly what Hamas wanted to happen so, it could continue pretending to be a victims engaged in self defense, rather than terrorists who put the lives of everyone around them at risk. This is a war. All war is awful. Sonetines war is just, awfulness included, in light of the much, much larger humanitarian picture.

My views on this subject in general reflect greater concern for the lives of tens of millions of people than the lives of mere tens of thousands. One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic, yet the latter must guide our policy.

snek , 5 months ago

I think they are all one question but I can rephrase it into a single one. Could you please answer it?

Is it acceptable to YOU as a human being to have YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY KILLED because the IDF says Hamas terrorists are under your house? Is this an acceptable trade off for you?

It’s a yes or no question, no need for long essays.

Thanks.

JustZ , 5 months ago

False dichotomy aside, I’ll humor you for the sake of the Socratic argument and hope that you arrive at a fair point: No it would obviously be unacceptable to me.

snek , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

The lack of a false dichotomy aside,

Thanks for answering, so now why would it make it acceptable for Palestinians?

JustZ , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

It’s not acceptable. Nobody would choose this, certainly not me. I didn’t put the family there, didn’t drop the bomb, didn’t build the tunnels under their house, didn’t refuse to evacuate. I also suspect that the man, sticking around in Gaza City, knew what he signed himself and his daughter up for. How could they not?

But I understand the choices western policymakers have to make, and the guy and his daughter are just not a significant factor in the decision tree. 25,000 guys and daughters like that are not significant factors in the decision tree.

The decision tree rather involves tens of millions of people, including that guy and his daughter.

snek , 5 months ago

I would agree with you if Israel had not bombed areas it deemed ‘Safe Zones’ several times killing twice and thrice displaced Palestinians who are shocked, starving, dehydrated, and incapable of getting medical treatment or even fuel for their car to leave.

The argument of the safe zones or Gaza city all falls apart once you read the facts.

You seem like a smart person. How do you feel about the IDF bombing areas they told people to move to? And how do you feel about the IDF forcing people to evacuate areas in which the refugee camps are already full, meaning there would never be enough space or food for them?

JustZ , 5 months ago

As I understand, less than 100 civilians were killed in strikes on refugee camps and on humanitarian corridors. War is hectic and so was the evacuation. This is again one of the examples of something tragic that happened once or twice, and people reporting on it as of it was the only thing happening.

If there were indiscriminate bombings on such locations, that would be evidence of war crimes. They seem very discriminate to me. IDF claims in one such attack, they got 40 Hamas members or something having a meeting in a mosque, of course they barred the doors and had a bunch of women and children in there with them to be used as human shields. Their deaths therefore are on Hamas, they locked them in there because they knew what could happen and they get sympathy when they do, instead of being held responsible for all the innocent lives.

snek , 5 months ago

Sorry, do you mean 100 civilians OVERALL since October 8th?

JustZ , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

Yes in air strikes on refugee camps and the humanitarian corridors. Although I believe that figure is a couple of weeks old.

snek , 5 months ago

Could you source that claim? It sounds grossly inaccurate.

JustZ , 5 months ago

There is no place I know of trying to keep this tally but this is where I got the number from. I see looking at this now that it appears out of date despite recent edits and includes only the humanitarian route airstrikes, not refugee camps; there are less than 100 dead in strikes on the humanitarian corridors, according this:

…wikipedia.org/…/Attacks_on_Palestinians_evacuati…

Indeed though, my original claim here was not completely accurate so thanks for making me flesh it out. The number of people killed at refugee camps is much higher last I checked this page, and seems to be in the range of like 500 to 600:

…wikipedia.org/…/Refugee_camp_airstrikes_in_the_I…

One such strike killed 50 civilians that were packed into a mosque and forced to stay there by Hamas, as apparently 40-odd members of Hamas held some sort of command meeting in an underground bunker. The airstrike killed a Hamas commander responsible for multiple terror attacks back to 2004, numerous rocket attacks, and the October 7 attack.

IDF says it used a bunker buster to target the underground bunker and that subsequently the bunker and connecting tunnels collapsed along with the adjacent apartment building. IDF says that minutes before the air strike, residents of the buildings near the site were warned to leave the area.

www.ynetnews.com/article/b1enracf6

twitter.com/IDF/status/1719469821207752998?lang=e…

reuters.com/…/hamas-says-it-fires-israeli-troops-…

This strike has been widely reported as being part of Israel’s indiscriminate bombing campaign against civilians. Palestinian Health authority, which is very credible with death reporting, says 50 civilians were killed. Hamas, which has zero credibility, says 400 civilians were killed.

This is one of the allegations in South Africa’s complaint that is repeated approximately a dozen times times in different sections for different reasons. For example, it is cited as an example of Israel telling people of Gaza to evacuate southward and then bombing a target in the south. If it was true that Israel was simply bombing refugees as they evacuated, that would obviously be a war crime. It is cited as evidence that the IDF is targeting civilian homes. If it was true that Israel was simply bombing homes in order to destroy the places where people live, that would obviously also be evidence of a war crime.

However, if it is true that: Israel was targeting an active Hamas leadership operation and part of Hamas’s massive underground military base, the strike killed a veteran Hamas commander, killed 40 other Hamas militants, people in the nearby buildings were warned before the bombs fell, and that Israel used ordinance designed to limit surface destruction while taking out underground military targets, than it literally cannot be called “indiscriminate.” Seems like it was very well planned and executed, narrowly tailored, and launched in a way to minimize civilian casualties. Again, Hamas put the civilians in the buildings, put the tunnel under the building, conducted terrorist operations from under the buildings, and then when Israel justifiably destroyed the tunnels and killed the terrorists occupying them, the structure above collapsed.

Again, this is Hamas’s strategy. They turned the foundation of the an entire city into Swiss cheese and then launched a war from it. As the tunnels get destroyed, the entire area becomes unstable. This is one reason why in my country you must obtain a building permit and structural engineering report before digging tunnels. Hamas’s strategy is to maximize civilian casualties in order to gain sympathy. Nevermind that on October 7 Hamas militants literally went to a concert, restaurants, and public streets and just fired indiscriminately on women and children and families as they drove to dinner or listened to a show.

I agree there must be a balancing between likely civilian casualties and military advantage. If the circumstances of this attack are as I’ve described them, do you agree that Israel’s strike was morally justified? I do.

snek , 5 months ago

No, I don’t agree. In the Jabalia refugee camp massacre alone, 195+ people died and they have many missing under the rubble. That one is on Wikipedia. A large chunk was children.

…wikipedia.org/…/31_October_2023_Jabalia_refugee_…

I didn’t even need to Google that one, it was still fresh in my memory and I knew more than 100 alone died just there sheltering.

Here is a Guardian report about it:

The 22,835 dead represent about one in a hundred of Gaza’s total population. They have been killed at a rate of just under 250 a day (an average that has come down a bit in the last few weeks). It is not known exactly how many of those killed were combatants, but Israel’s own ratio would suggest that on average, more than 160 civilians have died each day.

That is a much faster rate than in other broadly comparable recent conflicts. The US-led coalition fighting Islamic State in Raqqa killed 20 civilians a day during a four-month offensive, the BBC reported, while the nine-month battle for Mosul between US-backed Iraqi forces and IS killed fewer than 40 civilians a day. theguardian.com/…/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-ext…

Of course this number is now too small. They are 25k+ as of yesterday.

Even with Israel’s generous estimate to pretend to make it proportional, they are still killing more people than anyone else has done in modern history per day.

The number of dead people will likely skyrocket soon as many experts warn due to the 7k+ under the rubble (who are likely dead since a long time) and tens of thousands more will be dying to preventable diseases and famine.

Even the appointment of safe zones impossible and dangerous to get to with no fuel or busses or transportation is in itself a war crime. Just look at what MSF are saying:

Despite Israeli announcements suggesting that there are safe areas for the population trapped in the Gaza Strip, they are in fact exposed to bombardment throughout all the territory, including in the south, where tens of thousands of people have fled following the ultimatum.

msf.org/msf-calls-israeli-authorities-show-humani…

Here is one of the many many reports showing that the idea of safe zones in Gaza was a cruel lie: …france24.com/…/20231220-how-the-israeli-military…

snek , 5 months ago

Nevermind that this was in Jabalia where the IDF wrecked havoc and committed unspeakable crimes.

But yeah sure I’m sure it’s just an accident as described by you. That totally makes more sense /s

That totally makes all IDF actions justified /s

• Murder? Mistake
• Dead journalist? Oops mistake
• Dead children? Ohh they’re human shields so it was okay to end their lives in a violent and painful way under tonnes of rubble
• An entire dead family? Sorry that’s just the price we pay for peace 😢
• University building demolished? totally tunnels under there even though we had time to put explosives in specific places and worked for hours around the building which would mean it was secure but we blew it up anyway, destroying vital KHAMAS infrastructure
• Bombing every UN shelter? omg why are you holding Israel to another standard??!! 🤯😲😭

Dude doesn’t this kind of stuff make you feel suspicious of them?

Doorbook , 5 months ago

I like how you believe a proven lying military…

snek , 5 months ago

I think so too… This person has some reasonableness to him/her, they even said they would accept the ICJ decision in another thread. That’s good.

What I find amazing is how much trust they have in the IDF, as though some kind of blind loyalty. Otherwise, how would one be able to excuse such heinous crimes? Just say they were all accidents or trust the IDF statements “because they make more sense” (their words, not mine)… That’s how you distance your own brain from the bloodshed and massacres. Hide everything under the giant blanket of “IT’S JUST A WAR AND ALL WARS ARE BAD”.

Such statements make it sound like it’s okay to kill and maim as long as you put the war label on it… Totally forgetting that this war is literally tearing people limb from limb every single day, not providing any security to Israelis, and literally repeating the holocaust in some aspects.

My guess is: years of indoctrination, denial, fear of accepting the crimes committed by a country you support or identify with.

Doorbook , 5 months ago

I am glad I have the ability to tag users around here. It is the same accounts that keep saying the same things. I have one tagged “blame it on Iran” and a few with “IDF supporter”

I hope at least they get paid by the IDF otherwise it is sad.

snek , 5 months ago

Yeah, I was actually considering gathering a list of all of them and blocking them all at once for my own mental health and sanity, even though that might sound counter productive for debate. I would never shadow ban them from any community for simply being Zionists but I totally would in my personal sphere.

LostWon , 5 months ago

From what I’ve read, it seems Israeli citizens fear the Hannibal Directive (originally about killing their own soldiers rather than letting them be taken hostage) is secretly being applied to civilian hostages. It was supposed to have been retired several years ago, but there are accusations from within Israel it was implemented on Oct 7th (for the portion of people killed by the IDF), and possibly for all the Israeli hostages that have been killed so far by the IDF in separate incidents.

Doorbook , 5 months ago

You know the pictures of cars an burning bodies in October 7th?

Along with the “hamas plans” pictures they published.

The paper if you read it in arabic suggest the goal is to kidnap as much people as possible and attack check points.

What I believe happens is that hamas were attempting to stopping cars with people to kidnap them by driving back to Gaza. Those who refused to stop the car get shot at. Then the IDF response was to not allow any car to return to Gaza and killing there own civilians.

sirboozebum , 5 months ago

There were interviews in Israeli media with the pilots of the Apache helicopters.

They had no idea who were in the cars but blew them up anyway thinking they could be Hamas fighters.

maness300 , 5 months ago

You can’t just Zionists just like you can’t trust Nazis.