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Trump claims he didn’t have ‘fair notice’ that Georgia actions could be illegal

The former president files several fresh motions to toss out Fulton County election interference charges

Attorneys for Donald Trump claim that the former president didn’t have “fair notice” that his attempts to reverse his Georgia loss in the 2020 presidential election could result in criminal charges against him.

A flurry of filings in Fulton County Superior Court on Monday argue that the sprawling election interference case against Mr Trump “consists entirely of core political speech at the zenith of First Amendment protections”.

Attorneys for the former president want the case dismissed on grounds that he has “presidential immunity” from actions while in office, that he was already acquitted for similar allegations in his second impeachment trial, and that he was never told that what he was doing in the state – where he is charged as part of an alleged racketeering scheme to unlawfully subvert the state’s election results – could be prosecuted.

withnail ,

What’s next? Sovereign citizen bullshit?

Judge, I’m a natural born… what was it… citizen. You cannot charge me for anything. It’s true! Just look at the charters! Those, uhm, charters. I was merely traveling through Georgia. You have to let me go right now. Believe me, I know my rights!

superduperenigma ,

Maritime law, folks. They don’t want you to know about the - you know we have fantastic maritime laws in this country. Some of the best, maybe better than anyone else. We used to have them at least, but the radical leftists won’t tell you about that. When I walk into the courtroom - and these are corrupt places, let me tell you. A lot of people are talking about how unfairly people are treated here, especially if you’re the president. And when you’re the president you know a thing or two about courtrooms, folks. I start talking about the courts and the law and the maritime law and everyone listening - many of them lawyers, some of which have good genes, very good genes, folks, some of them are Jewish - I hear a lot lawyers are Jewish but I don’t know - when I talk about the courts they say “sir! Sir! How do you know so much about courts and law?” I don’t know, folks, but maybe it’s natural talent. But when you walk into the courtroom and you see the judges and the lawyers and the bailiff out to get you but you also see the tassels on the flag - they’re beautiful tassels, folks. One on each corner of the beautiful American flag. Golden, too. Everyone will tell you that I love gold, I have a lot of things painted gold in Mar A Lago. But when you see the tassels you know it has to be maritime law, not the phony, corrupt laws they use in New York, or Georgia, or Colorado. It’s gotta be the maritime law. But there’s no sailors in the court so you know - we used to have fantastic sailors in this country, they’d sail huge distances on the oceans. Maybe hundreds of miles, very far. Very far folks. They were in the Navy but maybe on other boats, too. But when you don’t see them in the courtroom you know they there’s no maritime law. But when you see the beautiful gold tassels on the beautiful American flag you know there’s supposed to be maritime law happening, but it’s not happening, so you know it’s all corrupt. It needs to be thrown out. It means I’m exonerated and everyone knows it. A lot of people are saying it. Very smart people.

ShaggySnacks ,

I could see Trump say that while pretending to play the accordion.

Edit: Spelling

Bigoldmustard ,

This is a staggering work of genius. Truly, easily the best trump I’ve read. Well done.

kralk ,

🎶Yoooou’re aaaa crook, captain hook…

Hadriscus ,

Flawless !

andrewta ,

Did you write that or have an ai do it? Either way that was genius

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Jack Smith spelled his name DONALD TRUMP and since it’s in all caps, it’s not really Donald Trump the person!

Got_Bent ,

I cannot count the number of times I’ve seen the phrase, “Ignorance of the law is not a defense.”

Yaglis ,

It is, if you’re rich

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Or a cop.

Facebones ,

This one always riled me. I, as just some asshole, have to know every nuance of every bylaw -

But someone whose paid employment job is “da law” can just go “whoopsies beating that guy and taking his wallet was bad? uWu”

fine_sandy_bottom ,

It’s not a legal defense but in the court of “opinion of trump supporters” it’s sufficient.

I mean, how could he have known that trying to manipulate an election result might be illegal ?

moon ,

The young children didn’t have notice either when he had “sexual relations” with them at Epstein’s mansion.

Kbobabob ,

You know he didn’t need to go Epstein’s Island. He had a young teenage “hot” girl at home. She might have even had friends over from time to time.

HoustonHenry ,

His second wife was his babysitter at one point, went on vacation with the family too…

Edit- his kids babysitter, I should clarify 😁

gmtom ,

His lawyers know its not a good argument. The point isn’t to win, it’s just to stall as long as possible.

utopianfiat ,

Say it with me friends

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

AbidanYre ,

It worked for Jr. Apparently he was too stupid to collude with Russia, despite his best efforts.

HikingVet ,

Being too stupid to do it is different from I didn’t know. Though both are bad.

Dkarma ,

The next trump legal argument: “yer honor I’m literally too dumb to commit crimes”

HikingVet ,

I wonder if being found incompetent to stand trail would have any effect on what he did as president. Like would they just invalidate anything he signed?

mo_ztt ,
@mo_ztt@lemmy.world avatar

Not only that, but he was definitely informed. White House counsel and other informed professionals were privy to a bunch of meetings where people were talking about these ideas, and they shared their opinions and sometimes got in shouting matches or resigned.

I think Trump’s brain genuinely cannot process the concepts of “right” and “wrong” as distinct from whatever he feels like doing, and so you could say: Yes, people whose job it is to be informed experts told him very clearly that these things were illegal, but his brain is so rotten and single-minded that he couldn’t absorb that their advice might be objectively true, any more than a dog can understand a “keep off the grass” sign.

Fortunately I think the chance of his lawyers advancing that as a defense is pretty remote.

givesomefucks ,

It boils down to:

No one stopped me in the moment so that means I’m allowed

Like if you tell a child not to touch a hot stove, they touch it, then get mad you didn’t stop them.

You always got to think what would a toddler do if you want to understand trump.

mo_ztt ,
@mo_ztt@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah. It’s just not a logical frame of mind. If you tried to stop me in the moment, you’re the enemy and you must be destroyed, how dare you, I feel angry, fuck you. If I did it and later it turned out it was wrong, you should have stopped me, how dare you, it’s not my fault, it’s your fault, I feel angry, fuck you.

PwnTra1n ,

You just laid out all his platforms. I’m angry and fuck you are maga staples

superduperenigma ,

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Unless you’re a cop illegally detaining someone for breaking a non-existent law

SuperTulle ,

And hasn’t been since before the Roman empire, possibly longer.

Ignorantia juris non excusat

darth_tiktaalik , (edited )
@darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml avatar

With all his whining about rigged elections he of all people should know you can’t ask election officials to “find” you exactly the amount of votes you need to win that election.

sebinspace ,

Did he just admit to lacking common sense?

Kbobabob ,

Anyone that’s ever actually listened to him speak knows he’s dumb as fuck.

WoahWoah ,

“Sorry officer, I didn’t know I couldn’t do that.”

phoenixz ,

What do you mean I’m not allowed to walk into a bank with an assault rifle, start shooting around and demand all their money?

I’m innocent, nobody ever told me that was illegal!

foggianism ,

“I had no idea people would care about the law that much, because I don’t.”

BrianTheeBiscuiteer ,

Trump: You never told me you’d prosecute me for election interference!

Georgia: You never asked!

WolfhoundRO ,

Georgia: you should have already known, it’s the law. Not some ordinary contract that you get to sign or decline

PedroMaldonado ,

Goddammit. The environments going to shit, 3 people own everything and we’re STILL DEALING WITH THIS ASSHOLE! TRUMP IS A BOIL ON US ALL.

HawlSera ,

Imagine what’ll be like when he gets re-elected… God just, take me now.

BigMacHole ,

That’s the Leader of the Law and Order Party!

108 ,

with all this lack of knowledge it sounds like he shouldn’t be in office.

Twelve20two ,

But… But he said he knows more than the generals :(

Rootiest ,
@Rootiest@lemmy.world avatar

Firstly: of course he knew it was illegal.

Secondly: ignorance of the law does not give you immunity from breaking it

KneeTitts ,
@KneeTitts@lemmy.world avatar

Firstly: of course he knew it was illegal.

Secondly: ignorance of the law does not give you immunity

Third: he assumed no one was taping him committing said crime, if they had not done that he would have simply denied it and his cult would have accepted that lie, as always

jeremyparker ,

Obviously you’re right. That said, in the universe of Trump’s fiction, it tracks (kind of). If the machines were rigged and if the election was stolen, then several things logically follow:

  1. Trump’s actions to retain power were not only justified, but also imperative, and very much within the scope of his duties as president, since he’s the executive branch; while DOJ might normally handle the day to day, a stolen election is a big deal, and it makes sense he would step in. And therefore he would be immune to prosecution for any “law breaking.”
  2. If you’re a superhero cop - not an actual, fat ass fascist bastard cop we have irl, but the kind of cop TV says is what cops are like, you don’t have time for subpoenas and warrants – you break down the doors and you grab the evidence. Maybe you’re not even sure if there’s a crime, but you can’t risk it – and if you’re president, you can argue there’s room for “better to ask for forgiveness than permission” in that context.
  3. If you’re not sure whether there’s been a crime but there’s a massive time pressure and extremely high stakes (as would be the case if the election was actually stolen), you would need to act as if there was a crime, since the consequences if there isn’t pale in comparison to the consequences if there is. So: if you are the head of the executive branch, and you are concerned that there’s a crime of that magnitude, you could easily make the case that you are duty bound to investigate.
  4. So, the situation is this: if you investigate, and there’s a crime, you’ve saved the world; if you investigate and there is no crime, then you will go to jail for it. That’s a bit unfair – so, a warning that, if you investigate this and there’s no crime, then you’re going to jail, might’ve been called for.

So – if Trump was able to produce even a single piece of evidence to support his claims, the fiction he’s established on top of them is arguable, and, if you start to look at his cases through that lens, his absurd motions and arguments kind of make sense.

unreasonabro ,

This is religion’s fault. Fuckin magical thinking’s all the average american is capable of. The bill for the 80s has come due

Rootiest ,
@Rootiest@lemmy.world avatar

I think though that (using your argument: given the severity/importance of the claim if true) there’s even more necessity that you produce even circumstantial evidence to justify suspicion of a crime before making the accusation.

Similar to how cops are supposed to show probable cause before detaining or pulling you over, etc.

Given that he couldn’t even come close to producing any kind of evidence, even flimsy evidence, and there’s verifiable proof of him pressing election officials and others to illegally alter or create votes to back up his claim, I think it’s clear that he knew very well there was no truth to his claims.

michaelmrose ,

if the election was stolen … Trump’s actions to retain power were not only justified, but also imperative, and very much within the scope of his duties as president

Nope this doesn’t follow. It would just mean that both actions would be equally illegal. There is no provision in law for one to break the law in order to remedy breaking the law.

you can argue there’s room for “better to ask for forgiveness than permission” in that context.

This actually basically never applies in real life. In real life we let the criminal off rather than incentivize breaking the law by declaring evidence so gained as fruits of a poisonous tree.

If you’re not sure whether there’s been a crime but there’s a massive time pressure and extremely high stakes (as would be the case if the election was actually stolen), you would need to act as if there was a crime

In the almost mythical stereotypical ticking time bomb scenario where morality can only be served by breaking the law the right thing after the bomb is diffused is to attempt to punish both cop and criminal. The cop in that scenario isn’t above the law their actions are a willing sacrifice of their own well being in service of a higher good.

if you investigate, and there’s a crime, you’ve saved the world; if you investigate and there is no crime, then you will go to jail for it. That’s a bit unfair – so, a warning that, if you investigate this and there’s no crime, then you’re going to jail, might’ve been called for.

He did investigate. There were 60 some cases including in GA. There was a recount and so forth. None of this was a crime.

The crime was threatening the SOS and trying to get the SOS or other officials to “fix” the election after he lost. The crime was getting fake electors to swear on lawful papework that they were lawfully chosen electors.

None of this is even slightly legit. It is as obviously illegal as dealing heroin or hiring a contract killer. Nobody is required to discern the nature of your criminal conspiracy and warn you that you are plotting to commit a crime.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

To #1, the legal avenue is to bring this to the courts.

He did that and failed the effort. Spectacularly. Multiple times.

The courts determined that he lost, and that any further arguments were frivolous.

It should also be noted he was saying the election was stolen before the polls ever opened, so, there’s that.

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