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yesman ,

Everybody loves shitting on the Democrats, but I just want to point out that Republican leadership is demanding concessions for merely bringing popular bipartisan legislation up for a vote. Everything is the debt ceiling now. Hamas ain’t the only one taking hostages.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

According to participants, the two sides have agreed in principle that migrants claiming a credible fear of persecution in their home countries must meet a higher bar to prove their concerns are well founded. They remain at an impasse, however, over whether to change policies governing when and where people entering the United States without permission should be detained or paroled into the country until their cases can be heard by a judge.

In principle, what this means is that if you’re queer and there’s a country that you are fleeing from because they want to kill you to come to America where it is, at least, legal to be queer (for now)- fuck you. You’re going back to die.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

The thing almost nobody wants to say that’s driving this (imo) - the ruling class sees the writing on the wall for global climate change and knows that lots of poor desperate people are going to be fleeing for their lives over the coming century, and their response is to tighten things down as much as possible so all those people die quietly away from the cameras

pan_troglodytes ,

why cant they seek refuge in Mexico? several friends of mine (that are gay) moved down there for that reason. one of them got his Mexican citizenship after 8 years or so just a few months ago. he sure looks a lot happier on his fb posts.

quindraco ,

Well, of course not. What you’ll do is come to America illegally because the legal method won’t work.

It’s just like how the GOP tries as hard as it can to maximize abortions by limiting access to contraceptives: this is an attempt to maximize illegal immigration by making legal immigration less and less of a real prospect. The GOP would much rather any immigrant be illegal than legal - e.g. because they can then pretend this problem is caused by Biden and use it in their rhetoric.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Of course, it can be argued that it’s by design. Hiring undocumented immigrants at far below minimum wage makes companies money and they rarely get significantly penalized for it.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Did y’all expect Democrats to be so gung-ho about war that Republicans are able to force concessions out of them for additional funding?

What the actual fuck.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, for my own personal opinion - I’ve got no problem throwing money at Ukraine because Putin is an asshole and we can afford it, but throwing asylum seekers under the bus to do it is a moral abomination and political malpractice

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s not just for Ukraine! They’re bending over backwards to fund Israel’s genocidal campaign in Gaza and adding fuel to the powder keg in Taiwan.

It’s like they’re trying to start WW3

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

"Adding fuel to the powder keg in Taiwan"

Yes, I am sure that Taiwan will invade China any day now.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It might decide to declare true independence and break away from China’s government entirely, and then China would respond in the obvious way, and now WW3 has another front.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

"In the obvious way"

Maybe the attempted subjugation of a nation should be blamed on the subjugator and not the democratic government which represents the to-be-subjugated?

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

China can’t afford to have a hostile US aligned Taiwan. That’s as unacceptable as the USSR putting nukes in Cuba. It’s literally a threat to both their regional power and national security.

Also? Peaceful reunification is not some impossible thing, but it becomes much harder when hardline nationalists have endless military backing from the US.

PugJesus , (edited )
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

China can’t afford to have a hostile US aligned Taiwan.

... there already is a hostile US-aligned Taiwan, and has been for as long as the PRC has existed.

It’s literally a threat to both their regional power and national security.

Therefore, it must be crushed, and it's the duty of every true anti-imperialist to lend critical support to Chinese imperialism.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

… there already is a hostile US-aligned Taiwan, and has been for as long as the PRC has existed.

It wasn’t being armed to the teeth before.

Again, remember the Cuban missile crisis.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

It wasn’t being armed to the teeth before.

... what?

Are you completely unaware of the history of ROC-US relations? We've been arming them 'to the teeth' for as long as the PRC has existed.

queermunist , (edited )
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

August was literally the first time the US has ever directly transferred US military equipment to Taiwan.

Do not pretend like this isn’t new or that there hasn’t been an escalation.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Did you not read your own fucking source.

The US has sold weapons to Taiwan in the past through a separate program called Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

The difference is that the current program being used is one normally reserved for assistance to sovereign nations.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, and under the previous program the US merely sold weapons like any other dealer. This new program provides grant assistance i.e. direct transfer of arms for free. That’s clearly different!

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

You said:

August was literally the first time the US has ever directly transferred US military equipment to Taiwan.

But keep moving those goalposts, you'll find one you like eventually. Probably. If the heat death of the universe doesn't occur first.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I just literally said that arms sales are different from direct military transfer! How is that moving goalposts? Taiwan bought weapons before and, if I understand the grant program correctly, it’s now getting them either greatly discounted or free. That’s an escalation!

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

I just literally said that arms sales are different from direct military transfer! How is that moving goalposts?

"This was literally the first time the US has ever directly transferred US military equipment to Taiwan."

"It's literally not, we have directly transferred arms for as long as Taiwan has been a thing, and your own fucking source notes that."

"Okay, but it's the first time you've ever directly transferred equipment for free!"

Yeah, definitely not a movement of the goalposts. I'm always at a loss as to whether tankies are dumb or just disingenuous cretins.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Transaction is different from transfer.

If I buy a gun, the store is not directly transferring the gun to me. It’s a transaction.

If I am granted a gun grant by the store and then get a gun for free or greatly discounted through a guaranteed low/zero interest loan, that’s not really a transaction. That’s a transfer.

Why do you deny that this is an escalation?

PugJesus , (edited )
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

If I buy a gun, the store is not directly transferring the gun to me. It’s a transaction.

No, that is literally and legally a transfer and a transaction.

Jesus Christ.

Why do people with no understanding of language attempt to play semantic games?

Why do you deny that this is an escalation?

An escalation of Taiwan's ability to defend itself against imperialism? You yourself admit that there's no chance of Taiwan invading China. So why is Taiwan being able to defend itself so worrying? If China's only interest is in peaceful reunification, Taiwan's military might is irrelevant. If China is willing to go to war to annex Taiwan against the wishes of it's people, that's imperialism, and makes you a bootlicker.

So why is this an escalation? Is that you support imperialism (obvious answer), or that you haven't fully thought through your own argument?

Oh, and for anyone following, in the past 30 years we've sold almost 100 billion dollars worth of military equipment to Taiwan, and are currently considering an aid package of 6 billion dollars over the next ten years. Much escalation. Very wow.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Why do people with no understanding of language attempt to play semantic games?

You’re the one playing semantic games! Fuck, my point was that this new transfer is different and you jumped up my ass trying to pretend like zero escalation has happened and this is nothing new. This is clearly new! This is clearly a step above what we were doing before, and Democrats are selling out refugees to keep doing it (or did you forget what this thread is about?)

What the fuck ever. Technically transfer always happened. You were right.

But surely you realize that subsidized transaction is different from pure financial transaction!

An escalation of Taiwan’s ability to defend itself against imperialism? You yourself admit that there’s no chance of Taiwan invading China.

Taiwan doesn’t have to invade for these weapons to be used against China, you realize this right? All it takes is one boat being sunk because China is trying to control trade routes into Taiwan.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

You’re the one playing semantic games! Fuck, my point was that this new transfer is different

No, your point was the incorrect assumption based on headline reading and tankie telephone games that the US hadn't supplied Taiwan with weaponry before, which is patently false.

and you jumped up my ass trying to pretend like zero escalation has happened and this is nothing new. This is clearly new! This is clearly a step above what we were doing before, and Democrats are selling out refugees to keep doing it (or did you forget what this thread is about?)

I still can't tell if you're just fucking stupid or disingenuous, or both. The bill in question, the bill in the article, the entire conversation around it, has nothing to do with Taiwan; Taiwan is something unrelated you brought up to wank over how evil and WARMONGERING the Democrats are for not sucking a dictator's toes like you do and how it's a "powder keg" that obviously slightly more military equipment over the next 10 years will cause to BLOW UP and FORCE the POOR OPPRESSED PRC to LIBERATE Taiwan the same way Russia is fucking liberating the Donbass right now.

But surely you realize that subsidized transaction is different from pure financial transaction!

In terms of 'escalation', not really. 6 billion free after selling almost 100 billion worth isn't anything more than token support.

Taiwan doesn’t have to invade for these weapons to be used against China, you realize this right? All it takes is one boat being sunk because China is trying to control trade routes into Taiwan.

"Oh no, how terrible, Taiwan won't let China use military force to control who gets in and out of Taiwan, it's a good thing this is an Anti-Imperialist(tm) move by China!"

nicetriangle ,

Arguably the only thing keeping Taiwan from being fully annexed right now is what they have built up militarily and that they are an island.

The powder keg you're bemoaning is them maybe putting up a fight in the future vs getting steamrolled quickly and without much fanfare.

If you think China has a right to the country, then sure I can see why you have a problem with them being able to defend themselves. Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is. Taiwan isn't building up for an attack on China so maybe ease up on the victim blaming here.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Have you considered that China would prefer to avoid violence when they consolidate the country? And that, maybe, all of this military hardware and funding might make peaceful reunification harder?

Zipitydew ,

*When they consolidate…*hold up right there tankie. I thought you type where all about fighting imperialism.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Imperialism is when people disagree with the CCP.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Peaceful reunification between two regions of the same country isnt imperialism you dork.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

"We want to do it peacefully, but if you resist we'll do it violently. This makes it not imperialism."

Do you even listen to yourself?

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

China isn’t Russia. That just isn’t how this is going to go.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

It's literally what you said, dumbass. You said if Taiwan declares independence China will have no choice but to invade.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I did not use the word “invade”

Let me clarify; China will cut off trade and freedom of movement, begin blockading the straight, shut down banking and communications, etc. I doubt they’d land boots on the ground and they certainly wouldn’t bomb Taiwan.

At least, not until Taiwan starts using all those shiney new weapons with the expectation that they have the full support of the United States. Then there’d be an invasion.

At the end of the day, you need to choose between war and peace. And it seems Democrats are willing to fuck over asylum seekers for the chance to start another war.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

At least, not until Taiwan starts using all those shiney new weapons with the expectation that they have the full support of the United States. Then there’d be an invasion.

"There won't be an invasion until Taiwan reacts to literal acts of war"

  1. Doubt.
  2. That's still fucking imperialism, bootlicker.
queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Are America’s sanctions on Cuba and Venezuela acts of war? If you agree that they are then I’ll concede on that point.

Also you really don’t understand what imperialism is, do you? Imperialism is an economic structure used to extract superprofit from imperialized nations. Annexation and integration are fundamentally different, because China has no plans to turn Taiwan into a labor/resource colony.

When France colonized Algeria they didn’t declare Algerians to be French and grant them the full rights and privileges of French citizens. Get it?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Are America’s sanctions on Cuba and Venezuela acts of war?

Sanctions? No. A blockade? Fuck yes it would be.

Also you really don’t understand what imperialism is, do you? Imperialism is an economic structure used to extract superprofit from imperialized nations. Annexation and integration are fundamentally different, because China has no plans to turn Taiwan into a labor/resource colony.

Ah, the "White Man's Burden" argument, classic as far as imperialist bootlicking goes.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Okay, so you won’t admit the embargo is a blockade.

Well, why wouldn’t China do the same thing? Treat Taiwan exactly the same as America treats Cuba? That seems likely to me, and actually would be clever from a propaganda standpoint since they could use this to undermine US legitimacy.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Do you have any idea what the words 'embargo' and 'blockade' mean?

nicetriangle ,

when they consolidate the country

Lol knew it

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

So shocking a country divided by civil war would want reunification! How sinister 🙄

nicetriangle ,

Oh fuck off with your tankie bullshit. Nobody’s buying it.

queermunist , (edited )
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I get it, China bad.

Whatever, I won’t convince libs that we shouldn’t be provoking China over Taiwan. Instead, I want you to think about the fact that Republicans are able to use this shit as leverage and now it’s going to be harder for refugees to receive asylum. For Taiwan. What the fuck?

QuinceDaPence ,

Have you considered that China would prefer to avoid violence when they consolidate the country?

No shit.

But Tiwan wants China to fuck the fuck off. And hopefully if China ever pushes the issue, the Tiwan Straight seabed gains some new artificial reefs courtesy of the Chinese military.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Have I considered that China would like for the people it invades to just roll over and accept their new masters instead of fighting back?

Yeah, I considered that. It seems likely that they would want that. I have yet to think of any good reason why they should get that wish, though.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Reunification would open up more opportunities for cooperation and development. That’s a pretty good reason.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

It's not China's place to make that choice for Taiwan. If they want to entice Taiwan to join them voluntarily, well, they've done a pretty bad job showing how "beneficial" that would be when you look at Hong Kong.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Aside from some affordable housing issues, what’s wrong with Hong Kong?

BraveSirZaphod ,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

I do love it when tankies casually out themselves.

toomanypancakes ,
@toomanypancakes@lemmy.world avatar

Politicians always love war, they don’t have to fight in it.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Except Republican politicians were able to use war as a bargaining chip to get concessions. That shows Democrats are somehow an even more pro war party at the moment. Incredible.

Fuck this country so much lol

PP_BOY_ ,
@PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

“The Ministry of Peace concerns itself with war, the Ministry of Truth with lies, the Ministry of Love with torture and the Ministry of Plenty with starvation. These contradictions are not accidental, nor do they result from from ordinary hypocrisy: they are deliberate exercises in doublethink.”

Cannacheques ,

Can we not. I prefer punches

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