This is a perfect case to point out that criminal can kill you and just get put back in prison. Your family will now forever, never be the same and told to forgive them… what a joke
This type of criminal should be killed by the state to protect the civil part of society from a person like this.
A lot of that cost is legal costs, to my understanding, going through the process of the defendant exhausting their appeals and such. Cutting that cost would mean a faster process with less time and opportunity to uncover mistakes, which would lead to even more executions of the falsely convicted
There's a much more intense appeal process because you can't un-execute someone.
If some evidence turns up a decade later after someone has been imprisoned for life that proves them to be innocent, while you can't give them that time back, you can release them and give them a hefty sum of many to at least attempt to repay what you've wrongly taken from them. But if you murder them, and they turn out to be innocent, then the government has murdered a completely innocent person for no reason, and nothing can be done to ever make that right.
In a perfect legal system, I think most people would be okay with the death penalty for the most heinous crimes. But because death is a final judgement that cannot be reversed, it needs an absolutely perfect justice system. And er, I don't think anyone would accuse our justice system of being that.
So given that, it's much much cheaper to just keep people locked up, and it saves us a lot of money. The only thing lost is a kind of moral righteousness and satisfaction in seeing criminals die, which I'd personally say is one of our less noble instincts anyway.
Honestly, I’d be against capital punishment even in an absolutely infallible justice system. If someone absolutely cannot ever be trusted to return to society no matter what rehabilitative options are available, then locking them up indefinitely still accomplishes this, while also resulting in less death overall
I'd personally agree (and amusingly enough, so would the Catholic Church, though they weirdly don't talk about that as much as some other social issues).
Ultimately though, that's more a question of moral principles, which are a lot harder to argue and less persuasive than simply talking about cold hard cash.
then locking them up indefinitely still accomplishes this
The problem is an issue of cost. It’s impossible to imprison someone for decades at a lower rate than executing them.
Executions are expensive, but they don’t need to be. He mentioned the “appeal process,” when I then said should be the same regardless of the punishment.
then the government has murdered a completely innocent person for no reason, and nothing can be done to ever make that right.
So… wouldn’t the same thing occur for innocent people who die in prison? Nothing can ever be done to make it right. It’s the same as sentencing them to death, only much slower and more expensive.
In a perfect legal system, I think most people would be okay with the death penalty for the most heinous crimes.
I don’t know. I see most people against the death penalty saying that they don’t support the death penalty because of some lofty “the government has no right to kill its citizens” principle. Not really based on anything, but it ‘sounds nice’ so I guess people go for it.
So given that, it’s much much cheaper to just keep people locked up, and it saves us a lot of money.
It doesn’t need to be. It’s at least possible to execute people for a cheaper price than imprisoning them. We just choose not to do it.
So… wouldn’t the same thing occur for innocent people who die in prison? Nothing can ever be done to make it right. It’s the same as sentencing them to death, only much slower and more expensive.
The essential difference is the ability for new evidence to come to light that exonerates the prisoner.
Simply put, there exist a non-trivial amount of people who were wrongfully imprisoned and later freed that would be dead now if we were looser with the death penalty. Some righteous bloodlust is not more valuable than their lives.
More simply, if you were wrongfully imprisoned, you'd probably be quite thankful for how hard it is to actually apply the death penalty. It's really that simple.
Right the standards are too low already as we have seen death row inmates exonerated and your plan to lower the cost is to lower the standards even further.
How about instead of trying to salvage a system that is clearly not working we abandon it. What is the absolute worst case scenario? A mass murderer piece of shit remains behind bars for that much longer. Instead of trying to lower the standards where the absolute worst case scenario is an innocent person gets killed.
I never said anything about that being a plan to lower costs or standards. My point was the opposite, that costs for capital punishment cannot be reasonably lowered without unacceptable sacrifices
Okay so, do you want to read that article? You can just skip to the conclusion part and the fact check done in 2018, since the article is from 2016…
-------------------------‐ Conclusion Was Dennis Davis correct when he claimed that death cases are more expensive than life in prison?
A preliminary study by South Dakotans for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, examining first-degree murder cases since 1985 that have resulted in a death sentence or life in prison, found that on average, legal costs in death penalty cases exceeded those in the other cases by $353,105.[24]
The study was submitted to the State Affairs Committee of the South Dakota State Senate as part of the committee’s hearing on this year’s bill to abolish capital punishment.[3] The study was referenced by both proponents and opponents of the bill during the hearing, and its numbers were not refuted.
While the legal costs were greater, information from the South Dakota Department of Correction shows the average cost of long-term incarceration for a prisoner sentenced to death is lower than that of a prisoner serving a life sentence. Because there are no extra expenses involved in housing condemned prisoners, and those prisoners are incarcerated for less time in state prison, the average savings per prisoner is $159,523.[19]
Since the average savings in long-term incarceration is so much lower than the average additional legal costs, it appears Davis is correct about the cost of the death penalty versus life imprisonment in his home state.
Because the costs associated with capital punishment have not been studied in every state that has the death penalty, and because most of the existing studies are limited in scope, it is not possible to state definitively that the death penalty is always more expensive than life in prison in the United States. But the studies of capital punishment conducted since the Furman decision do offer support for Davis’ claim.
Fact Check- 1000 x 218 px.png Launched in October 2015 and active through October 2018, Fact Check by Ballotpedia examined claims made by elected officials, political appointees, and political candidates at the federal, state, and local levels. We evaluated claims made by politicians of all backgrounds and affiliations, subjecting them to the same objective and neutral examination process. As of 2023, Ballotpedia staff periodically review these articles to revaluate and reaffirm our conclusions. Please email us with questions.
Soooooo basically, yeah more expensive in legal fees but literally cheaper because they don’t spend 40 years rotting in a hole.
No, that 160K savings is incarceration costs, they don’t outweigh the TOTAL costs increase of 190K which are the legal costs minus the savings in incarceration
And if someone is falsely convicted of this sort of crime and executed, that person’s family too will never be the same. And it is not possible to create a system in which criminals are successfully prosecuted but where false convictions cannot happen
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean every innocent person in prison for life is going to get exonerated before they die.
The argument that “the death penalty should be abolished because some innocent people are convicted” doesn’t hold any water because innocent people can be convicted with life imprisonment as well and die before being found innocent. Does that mean we shouldn’t sentence people to life in prison?
Which brings me back to my previous point: it’s acceptable to imprison innocent people for life, but not to execute them. At least in your minds.
It is not acceptable to punish an innocent person at all in my mind, but it is also not acceptable to sit by and do nothing about dangerous and malicious behavior, and so it becomes necessary to choose the lesser evil.
Executions should only be reserved for the worst of the worst. The people who don’t care they murdered someone. A father that executes his 3 kids and is cool with that is a perfect example for it or a person who is a serial rapist who has now committed murder and NOT the legally ambiguous.
“We don’t quite know if you did that crime so it will be life instead of execution.”
“Oh you just wanted to kill 30 people because you hate your life, don’t worry the state will sort you out”
lol you mean you put people in prison when you’re not sure they’re guilty over there?
“Yeah we’re not completely sure he murdered this woman so we’re not going to kill him, just put him in prison for 30 years in case he’s actually guilty.”
At that point, you have to try to draw some kind of distinguishing, which will take quite a lot of time, money, and effort, just to create a punishment that is barely ever used and accomplishes no meaningful advantage over life imprisonment except some sort of rather perverse moral satisfaction.
In a perfect world, I'd agree that death for the most heinous case that have no legal ambiguity is essentially fine, but in reality, "not legally ambiguous" functionally does not exist, or at the least, it takes a lot of time and money to find it.
Yeah, a perfect world. I agree. I just feel that people who have killed just because they want to,the people that kill their whole family or 30 kids in a school can’t just sit their and live, it might not be the best type of life but its still something their victims don’t have.
Im mainly really only referring to cases like Chad Doerman. It is an execution case and its not the only one of its type.
Also I forgot to add. This guy in OP’s post is also a candidate for execution. A serial rapist with a long history of his crime now guilty of murdering a inoccent person. I mean what the fuck did she do to deserve that? he gets to keep on breathing? Fuck that! the system is broken and people suck.
The fact of the matter is that you either waste a huge amount of money and time in the process of rigorously defining that category of who deserves the death penalty, or you do literally anything else with those resources.
And frankly, I don't think the biggest issue with the prison system right now is a small number of people who deserve death instead being alive, so there are plenty of other things that I'd rather invest in. For instance, the fact that security is so lax that being raped in prison is so common that people literally make casual jokes about it.
Simply put, this world where the justice system just knows who deserves to die and never makes any mistakes ever does not exist, whether you like that or not.
See you make it sound like its such a hard decisions. Rigorously define the death penalty? The fuck? You either meet the standard for execution or you don’t, see the case of Chad Doerman (my standard for the death penalty).
Yes the prison system needs updating but im not talking about prisons.
Not asking for that perfect world im asking for a world where a person that commits the most serious of crimes, no longer enjoy their life.
And I'm saying that what you're wanting is a fairy tale and doesn't actually exist (or at the very least, costs a stupid amount of money and resources that could be much better used by doing literally anything else).
I don't think we're gonna get much further here, so respectfully, I'm going to move on.
Its not a fairy tale, what a fairy tale is you think you gonna get funding to stop people in prison from getting turned out. Not gonna happen.
People don’t usually say “im done with this” but the ones that do are pretty pretentious. You think one thing, I think another, it conversion but your just being… whats the word im looking for? Oh yeah, a dick.
Their is a dark disgusting part of human society that deserve to take dirt nap in my mind its a simple process for a case already litigated to the point that even a person in a coma could tell they did it with malicious intent.
You are looking to be a noble person with only the most noble ideals, “I am noble for not letting this killer be himself killed”. How noble of you noble one.
To be frank, you're sounding more and more like a child (and spelling like one, I might add), and I'm losing any interest in continuing to speak with you. If you think every stranger on the internet is obligated to spend an unlimited amount of time on a conversation that's devolving into playground insults, I'm afraid that I simply do not care if someone who can't grasp the idea that the world is a bit more complicated than they imagine thinking that I'm a pretentious dick.
So with that, enjoy prattling on with someone who will listen to you and match your base level of maturity, because I am not one of them.
I think we should start executing all the people with your views on criminal justice. Your kind are diseased and I don’t think you have a place in an ideal society.
That’s obviously farcical to make a point, but do you see why people may not want to encourage the state monopoly on violence to so easily apply to whoever you want?
And my crime? A view point? When I’m talking about the worst of the worst. I think you need to really think about what you just said. Killing someone for expressing a view point? There is no place in society for a person such as yourself.
Im not asking the government to have carte blanche on killing people for things like stealing from the store or even someone who killed someone in the heat of passion. Im talking about the real cunts.
I believe, genuinely, that you’re a killer waiting for a bad enough day, solely because of the views you express here. You do not seem to be an emotionally mature person who lives in the real world, and I would absolutely classify you as a threat to society. I mean this with all sincerity - society would be better off without you and those that think like you do.
This is sort of the inherent problem with the mindset you have - anyone can be classified as “the real cunts” because people don’t work the way you think they do. I would never act on the above because it is wrong, but the more you empower a blind system the more likely the net of “real cunts” will broaden, which is what you seem to be missing.
'kill all the bad ones" becomes “wow there sure are a lot of bad ones” very quickly.
You make it so personal, using your logic, I could say the same as you. Your immediate though is that I’m a “killer in waiting”? Thats a pretty intense stance you are taking their for nothing more than a conversation. You do understand how society works right? People have conversations about topics and you are so strongly aposse to me that you are ready to make what I say seem, like worse? Think about that. Hmmm I think their is a larger issue at play here.
Whats up? I’m not being a dick I genuinely want to know why you use such strong words to outline your argument?
We could share the same ideals on other topics but this is what you think defines me?
I think you have other reasons to lash out. We disagree on this but im not calling you a killer for saying I should be killed for simply expressing a view point.
Yes this is a big part of why I am a near-abolitionist about prison and am utterly opposed to the death penalty.
I think you have other reasons to lash out.
I didn’t lash out. Perhaps you’re missing the meaning of “farcical?”
I have calmly reiterated to you, with repeated examples, that these lines are blurry and being too gung-ho about the death penalty gets innocent people killed and opens the door to ever-further expansion.
Yes, you lashed out dude. You labeled me a killer in waiting, seemed a little harsh. Im happy you have such strong feelings about it.
I am not asking for lines to be blured and I am apposed to innocent people executed or even falsely sentenced to prison, put there by courrpt individuals looking to close the case, get a promotion, etc.
The innocence project an institution i belive in but we shouldn’t have to rely on it to catch a problem rather than fixing the courrption that leads to false convictions or executes based on flimsy evidence.
But in my mind, and call it toxic if you want but, I feel really strongly that a person like Chad Doerman the person that shot his 3 toddler aged kids on his front law while their mother lay over them to try save them and got wounded in the process he was calm and just showed absolutely no remorse he just end 3 kids live and is allowed to live, call me names for not wanting him or btk or green river or the golden state being alive.
You calmly did nothing, you just went straight into “kill mode” without even having a decent conversation. Its hard to gauge a person on the Internet but I just find people are super on edge, ready to hurt someone in a flurry of text. I don’t hate you or anything, infact. I hope you have a nice day\night.
The death penalty shouldn’t be a thing. The amount of innocent people it is acceptable to execute in order to catch the “bad guys” is always zero.
Our whole system needs an overhaul, but it starts with the general public acknowledging that prisoners are people too. Even the really heinous ones. We need to realize that and act accordingly. We need to help these people be better, and if we can’t help them be better. Then they need a safe place away from society.
It should on be reserved for the worst of the worst. Not the people they are not sure of.
How is that different than the system right now?
We’re treating the symptoms, not the cause. There will always be shit people out there, but this late stage capitalism hellscape in tandem with incarceration which is punative rather than focused on treatment makes for a really fucked up society where as soon as someone fucks up, they’re basically done for life. This outcome was tragically predictable
I guess killing all of them is one solution, but what the fuck?
It would be hard to do that with the current system. Which means it would require a complete overhaul of the justice system, which I would argue is something that is desperately needed. There are too many corrupt individuals on all level of the system that needs correcting.
Look at BTK he is just sitting there in prison, just chilling allowed to live while his victims are not.
I guess I’m riled up but the Chad Doerman documents I watch because, 3 kids man, 3 kids that did nothing dead and he did not give one shit. His wife was wounded as she lay trying to protect them right there on the front lawn. Maybe its retribution i wish but I just know why he is allowed to live.
Fixing our judicial system is arguably easier to fix than the human condition. We need to help people out of poverty, we need to give people their basic needs, they need education, heathcare and a whole host of things, housing, jobs, the list goes on. I would say if people had access to proper service and live reasonable life will eliminate a lot of crime. Can we do that?
It should on be reserved for the worst of the worst. Not the people they are not sure of.
Do you think you’re the first person that thought of this? Do you really think the justice system is too stupid to say “hey, we should be sure before we use the death penalty”?
No matter what system you build, it will always kill some innocent people, because no system works perfectly. How is that acceptable to you?
Innocent people are being killed by people who have not conscious of guilt don’t care about laws we follow. Kill you just the same.
I’d rather be innocent and be killed by a murderer than by the state. Killing even more innocent people won’t help.
Fix that fucking legal system and start a green revolution by deleting the worst criminls we have.
Oh, we just have to fix the legal system, why didn’t we think of that before?
Or we could delete you and be done with it. Sounds good?
You could if you wanted to but im just saying something and thats not really worth the death penalty, or is it?
So we just have to accept the system as it is and not try to improve it? Oh boo thats also a very unoriginal idea, almost all ideas are unoriginal when it come to punishments.
Not just the legal system but society, we live in a society that really does not care about the people lesser in society, literaly try be a homeless guy and get away with a crime where a rich person can just pay the bond and be out!
Im happy you would rather be killed by a stranger than the state, especially crazy if you were innocent. but, I would argue that the person that killed you, if it was in cold blood, did it with malicious intent had a history of murder, killed you in a mass shooting with no remorse, I would protest the shit out of them being executed rather than spending life in prison. I know you’d probably be apposed to me doing so.
You could if you wanted to but im just saying something and thats not really worth the death penalty, or is it?
Actually no, I think people that like the death penalty are pretty much murderers in waiting. Why wait until you kill someone innocent?
So we just have to accept the system as it is and not try to improve it? Oh boo thats also a very unoriginal idea, almost all ideas are unoriginal when it come to punishments.
Where exactly is the improvement when the state kills even more innocent people? Seems to me an improvement would be fewer innocent people put to death.
I know what retributivism is, and it perfectly fits into what you’ve written so far. Now explain to me: why shouldn’t we be preemptively retributive with people like you?
You want to equate my belief, that the punishment should fit the crime by saying “a killer deserves to face death to right the wrong” to being a killer my self? Then explain to you why you shouldn’t have that view point? Pre-emptively?
You want to equate my belief, that the punishment should fit the crime by saying “a killer deserves to face death to right the wrong” to being a killer my self?
Everyone wants a punishment that fits the crime, but we disagree what punishment fits what crime. You want the state to kill people who you think deserve to be killed, but you also know that this will lead to innocent people being killed by the state, which is acceptable to you. How does that not make you complicit in the murder of innocents?
Then explain to you why you shouldn’t have that view point? Pre-emptively?
Why you shouldn’t have what view point? The one that leads to innocent people being killed? Because it leads to innocent people being killed. Generally, any view point that leads to innocent people being killed is one you shouldn’t have.
You know, if you just watched that video. You’d understand my view point and it also has the opposite opinion, its both arguments give by two people who are more able to explain it better than me. Im basically trying to understand it myself and I try to explain it with some confidence with every other person on lemmy.
The crime is? He kills his 3 kids. The punishment? Death, in this case. deserved and proportional, in my opinion, in this case!
Btk, same opinion. Greene River, same opinion.
You keep saying innocent people will be killed and you believe i want that to happen. I do not. you say “its inevitable” and I will say, that if you kill someone on false charges, it is wrong and it should only be applied to the cases I have stated previously, not a power just given out willy nilly.
I’m not actively calling for an extremely low bar death penalty justice system, I say, eye for an eye. Killed his kids, delete him from life and this other guy from OPs post the guy rapes and kills a woman, 26, no remorse, killing is like brushing teeth, delete him from our society, and because I belive that I’m a potential murderer? Geeze man, thats depression as a conclusion. mountains, mole hills or something something.
But the part that you don’t seem to comprehend is simply that no matter how high you set the standards, you will kill innocent people. What if somehow evidence comes out that shows you got the wrong guy instead of the one who kills 3 kids? You’re going to say “you just have to be sure”, but there is literally no way. Nobody in the history of humanity has figured out how to do what you’re proposing without killing innocent people, and I’m pretty sure nobody ever will.
So there are invariably only two options:
kill people and innocents
don’t kill people and don’t kill innocents
Unless you’ve found a magic solution that 100% ensures infallibility in the justice system, there is no third option. Understand now?
The guy is on video, he confessed to the police that it was premeditated, there were multiple witnesses. Where is this innocent person you keeping talking about being killed? I would argue its the fucking kids. I know you are talking over the whole judicial system but im arguing its these cases specifically.
I think you really enjoy telling other who they are, incorrectly I might add, think im a murderer in waiting? I would say you like to feel your superiority of the moral standard that retribution is equal to being a murderer yourself. Thats what I call delusional.
You be out here defending the lifes of the most disgusting humans on this planet and you think I’m the murderer? I call you an enabler, you would allow them to become “rehabilitated” in a system that relies on recidivism and just go on to kill again. Maybe you should think about all the people who left the prison just to kill again, their victim lay at your feet because you, obviously that is not true, but its your stupid logic.
The guy is on video, he confessed to the police that it was premeditated, there were multiple witnesses. Where is this innocent person you keeping talking about being killed? I would argue its the fucking kids. I know you are talking over the whole judicial system but im arguing its these cases specifically.
And even in cases like this mistakes have been made before. But you obviously can’t accept that, as your whole position would fall apart, so you instead talk about this way that will surely work that somehow nobody else came up with.
Also, don’t act like killing a murderer somehow brings back the people he murdered. The only difference between locking them up for life and killing them is that the earlier leaves you the option of freeing them if it’s proven your innocent, whereas the latter fulfills your bloodlust.
I think you really enjoy telling other who they are, incorrectly I might add, think im a murderer in waiting? I would say you like to feel your superiority of the moral standard that retribution is equal to being a murderer yourself. Thats what I call delusional.
Mate, have fun calling me delusional, I don’t care. It’s pretty obvious you’re a young kid stumbling upon these philosophical ideas for the first time, and you simply can’t accept that the “simple and obvious” solution you’re proposing is flawed. But since it feels right to you, it can’t be wrong! And that’s what I call bloodlust.
You be out here defending the lifes of the most disgusting humans on this planet and you think I’m the murderer? I call you an enabler, you would allow them to become “rehabilitated” in a system that relies on recidivism and just go on to kill again. Maybe you should think about all the people who left the prison just to kill again, their victim lay at your feet because you, obviously that is not true, but its your stupid logic.
See, perfect example. I’m not “defending the lives of the most disgusting humans on the planet”, I’m defending the lives of the innocent people your quest for revenge will kill as collateral damage. Because, spoiler alert, locking up a terrible murderer for the rest of their life will not allow them to murder. But you don’t care that innocent people will die.
Show me the mistake in such a case as that? Please id love to see your fictitious case because if you show me cases where the person had a shit lawyer and died because of insufficient council or evidence that had been withheld by the prosecution or bias by the judge or jury based of false information then I would argue that that is a failure of the system through courrupt individual that uses it in inappropriate ways its not intended to be used and not proportional justice that i seek.
Yet again you make a stupid claim “like its gonna bring them back” are you dense? Are you purposely being obtuse? Not sure if you are or not.
Blood lust? Someone call the hyperbole police on this person and yes you are delusion equating my belief in proportional justice as a blood lust for the innocence imma bout to slay? That i would argue is simplistic. Oh so just because I found out what the idea behind my belief is all of a sudden im a petulant immature child?
You are the child in this point, labeling people casting your ideals on them without a serious conversation? Thats your immaturity, not understanding why a person would prefer their child murderer to not exist (and again specific to this case) is a perfectly rational response.
You literally are defending their ability to avoid proportional justice so they can either be “rehabilitated” to leave and possibly commit a much worse crime or spend vasts amounts of money to keep housing the worst people like some macabre collection to leer at.
I seek retribution not revenge. I seek a proportional sentence for the crime convicted of.
This bit got me the most lol Because, spoiler alert, locking up a terrible murderer for the rest of their life will not allow them to murder. But you don’t care that innocent people will die.
Ahh yeah they do, people with life sentences don’t care if they get time added, they gonna die there any way… very very simple view there
And if you were paying any attention before you would understand that NO I DO care if innocent people die.
The people who use them won’t be sending them back, I know for example Adam Savage has one and he has professed his love for it like many other microEV users have.
But I’m sure there will be a lot of dusty ones sent back from those who didn’t end up using theirs a lot.
Personally I hate the current state of microEV, it’s held back hard and combated by the government very effectively in some places.
I’ve wanted to dump $2-3k on a good one, but they’re neutered here in Norway. To get a proper engine to get up hills you’d be spending more than the price of a moped to go slower than cyclists, unless you choose to break the law.
Killed with the same kind of gun that was in her name that he “couldn’t find” a week before their divorce court date. After telling multiple people if something happens it was him. Ya, he totally didn’t do it. How did he think he had any chance of getting away with it?
I love history and discoveries like this fascinate me, but do they serve any functional purpose? Does knowing that Babylonians understood angles change anything in my daily or long term life?
Not trying to be critical, just a question I often pose myself but have yet to think of a reassuring answer for.
It might give you new respect for the Babylonians, and act as a corrective to the modern tendency to assume superiority. It might enhance your sense of how similar we all are and how connected, and your kinship with people who lived millennia before you. If little discoveries like this make us just a little more sensitive to the transience of even the most sophisticated societies, the kinship of all people and the sheer length of human history compared to the shortness of our individual lives, it might make us just a little more considerate and respectful in how we treat our world and our peers. The value of such discoveries is their cumulative influence on our understanding of ourselves and how we fit into the world. It makes us wiser.
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