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STRIKINGdebate2 ,
@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world avatar

Comments have been locked due to toxicity. Sorry op.

Filthmontane ,

Any fish that dies from plastic is dying from a method that isn’t me eating it. Also, there’s lots of fish I don’t eat that I’m not cool with dying to plastic. I really like the ocean plants that make all the oxygen I breath too.

amzd ,

Dredging for your fish kills most ocean plants.

Ataraxia ,

I love sushi. I’m going to have all you can eat next week and I’m gonna eat so much I shit myself. It’s gonna be fucking awesome.

bellly ,

I <3 the micro plastics in my body ✨️✨️

gehrluke ,

It’s like additional electrolytes!

Dio ,
@Dio@lemy.lol avatar

Lol.

hahattpro ,

If a fish die of plastic, you probably eat plastic while eating fish

BirdyBoogleBop ,

Don’t think there is any probably anymore. You are eating plastic no matter what.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Might as well leave the cheese singles wrapped 🤷🏻‍♂️

Kase ,

Wait, you guys have been unwrapping them?

altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

Then we die of plastic

CryptidBestiary , (edited )

People here are talking about fishes as our food source but what about fishes as a food source for other aquatic life? Or other animals that feed on those marine life? The effects can be far reaching. So the implication of a fish dying from plastic is a bit more complicated than what OP’s making it out to be

Moshpirit ,
@Moshpirit@lemmy.world avatar

We can avoid eating animals though

metallic_z3r0 ,

We’re not just eating tons per day, we’re eating about 430-ish metric kilotons per day.

Imgonnatrythis ,

Yeah, everything just sounds bigger on the metric system though

Evilsmiley ,

A metric ton is 40lbs more than a ‘long ton’

victorz ,

How many per day are replenished then?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s weird. I don’t like most fish, but I really don’t have an ethical problem in general with eating fish as long as they were harvested sustainably. Unfortunately, most of the saltwater fish I have enjoyed over the years- shark and swordfish steak, cod, tuna- are not harvested sustainably, so I don’t eat them. That pretty much leaves me with farmed trout and catfish, the only two other fish I like. And I just don’t feel like it’s the same as eating a cow or a chicken. Maybe I don’t have any actual scientific basis to go on, but fish are just so different from us and so much more primitive that it just doesn’t bother me.

lugal ,

commie ,

that doesn’t stop either of the problems.

curious_betsy ,

easily solves the first one and helps with the second one as discarded fishing nets are a large source of plastic in the ocean

commie ,

lots of people have gone vegan. the problems are still getting worse.

lugal ,

Don’t know if trolling or just stupid

commie ,

what i said was true.

lugal ,

Now I know what you do: you are shitposting inside a shitposting community! If that’s what lemmy has become, I don’t want to be part of it anymore. Sad.

commie ,

bye

curious_betsy ,

Cant get down bc some anti vegan bad faith internet comments. You always get these guys on any platform

commie ,

I’m not anti vegan

victorz ,

I think what you’re missing is that they want everyone to go vegan. I think that’s the point.

I’m not on any side here, just pointing out where I think you walked off the trail (in the very beginning).

commie ,

not everyone is in this Lemmy thread.

victorz ,

That’s okay, it was only intended for you…

curious_betsy ,

this commie guy is an obvious troll, but props for trying to explain

commie ,

calling me names doesn’t make what I said untrue

TrickDacy ,

Strawman.

What people are justifiably concerned about is pollution causing death and disease. Fuck off with this hYpOcRiSy bullshit

Dazza ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    TrickDacy ,

    OP is minimizing an actually very important issue. They may as well work for an oil company (and they very well might)

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.one avatar

    That’s a reeeeaaaal stretch, and I think you know it lol

    Seems to me more likely that OP is supporting veganism

    smotherlove ,

    Why?

    balderdash9 ,

    https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/32df0162-4eab-4128-8d72-3fb4da9e10e6.webp

    cashews_best_nut ,

    Guarantee the person who made this is a vegan.

    threeduck ,
    @threeduck@aussie.zone avatar

    You’d hope so, the more the better for the planet

    victorz ,

    You’d think so, until you hear the rebuttals to this that never ever get brought up by the media.

    WldFyre ,

    What are some of these “rebuttals”?

    victorz ,

    For example that producing and shipping the pure amount of mass corresponding to the same amount of nutrition in vegan foods vs dairy/meat products is not sustainable, because plant based foods contain so much less nutrition than animal products. You have to level and destroy forest habitats to grow all these things for 10,000,000,000 people… That’s an infant amount of plants.

    And a lot of foods that claim to be “good sources of protein” don’t really… contain much else, like meat does. Some are even harmful in large quantities like too much soy in your diet, especially to children.

    I dunno, these are things I’ve been told. Just the messenger so take with a grain of salt. But I thought they were interesting points that shouldn’t be ignored and should be disproven before dismissed. I just have too much going on in my life to worry about researching it right now. 😓 But one day maybe!

    What do you think? I think this topic is definitely more complicated than “let’s fix/save the world by going vegan”.

    FIST_FILLET ,

    who do you think pollutes the waters? you get 3 tries but no phone-a-friend

    Tavarin ,
    @Tavarin@lemmy.ca avatar

    Mostly China and India.

    themeatbridge ,

    I know it’s a meme, but is anyone actually sad for the fish? I thought we were terrified about what was happening to our food. If someone autopsied a downed cow and a bunch of toxic plastic shit spilled from their stomachs, we aren’t thinking “poor cow ate all that plastic and died.” We’re worried about our food supply.

    toomanypancakes ,
    @toomanypancakes@lemmy.world avatar

    Lots of people are sad for the fish, but they’re usually vegan

    LemmysMum ,

    I’m sad for the fish because if they’re gone I can’t eat them, and they can’t eat the tasty little fish, and they miss out on all that lovely tasty phytoplankton…

    Ataraxia ,

    I’m sure a lion is gonna feel really bad for a human if they choke on plastic instead of getting to feed a lion.

    amzd ,

    Lions also don’t feel bad when they kill or rape each other, they are not a great role model for morals.

    oshitwaddup ,

    I’m sad for the fish. Imaging being forced into a massive pile of others just like you while being crushed by the weight of them and suffocating to death. It’s fucked up

    anonymouse ,

    That has more to do with farming practices though, not plastic pollution.

    oshitwaddup ,

    The plastic pollution is also sad, but not as sad imo

    LemmysMum ,

    Global catastrophy will never be as emotionally convincing as individual suffering. Why empathise with more when you can sympathise with less.

    oshitwaddup ,

    The fishing is sadder to me because it’s intentionally causing unnecessary harm. I can see why accidental harm might be sadder though, and it is very sad either way. Systemic injustice and global catastrophe both need to be addressed though obviously

    LemmysMum ,

    Consuming for survival is not unneccesary harm. All complex life takes life to continue living.

    oshitwaddup ,

    The vast majority of humans can thrive/be healthy on a vegan diet, therefore it’s not consuming for survival. That’s an excuse or ignorance (again, for the vast majority of humans, especially those who are reading this. There are always exceptions tho)

    LemmysMum , (edited )

    Vegans just casually creating a class system to value one life above others.

    We have a name for the class of animals that eat grass, stay in packs for safety, and lack the individual skills necessary for individal survival. And even they are smart enough to be opportunistic omnivores.

    The only species of animal stupid enough to consume against their needs and instincts are humans.

    oshitwaddup ,

    What? That’s what you took from vegans saying “stop killing others unnecessarily”?

    Carnists are literally putting out an idea that values someones sensory pleasure over the lives of others and then acting accordingly and killing by the billions each year.

    LemmysMum ,

    The word you’re looking for is omnivore, not carnist.

    How many house plants have you killed not for the purpose of your own survival? Nobody can disregard life like a militant vegan.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷

    To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)

    LemmysMum ,

    Disingenuous, ignorant, mentally deficient from years of choline deficiency. You’re right. If the shoe fits.

    Eating keeps things alive, only a vegan would think taking something out of its natural environment and subjecting it to worse living conditions and a shortened lifespan without the purpose of benefitting another lifeforms ability to survive as being less harmful.

    We kill for survival, you kill for pleasure and ego.

    Classist vegans only care for sentience, not life.

    oshitwaddup ,

    I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️

    LemmysMum ,

    I’m going to assume you can’t defend your position so you’re going to curl up in your ego to keep warm. Enjoy!

    WldFyre ,

    We kill for survival, you kill for pleasure and ego.

    Why do non-vegans always have the stupidest takes wrapped up in some pseudo-intellectual bullshit. You obviously don’t believe that someone killing your houseplant or lawn is as bad as someone killing your dog, so why say something so blatantly untruthful and dumb?

    And how are vegans killing for pleasure when they have a more restricted diet than you?

    Go out and continue the circle of life in your local Publix, you ferocious lion you!

    LemmysMum ,

    Wow, do you even hear yourself? How lacking in compassion must you be to not have any care for plant life.

    WldFyre ,

    Nice to know that you don’t have any arguments. Vegans are the dumb ones for sure! Continue trolling and pretending to be an idiot, that really shows how you have a point and they don’t lol

    LemmysMum ,

    I’ve got plenty of arguments, none you’d be able to get past your ego to accept though.

    WldFyre ,

    Saying killing plants is morally equivalent to killing animals is not only dumb, it’s also an argument for veganism. It takes more plants to sustain an omnivore diet than a vegan one. All the animals you eat had to eat as well, and it’s not an efficient transfer of calories. Look up trophic levels if you’re actually arguing in good faith.

    So I agree! Killing plants is murder! So you should go vegan and stop killing excessive plants for your selfish taste buds.

    commie ,

    it’s also an argument for veganism

    no, it’s not

    WldFyre ,

    Great counter argument. Eating carcinogens is truly great for your mental facilities.

    commie ,

    plants are not sentient

    this cannot be proven, but even if it’s true, it doesn’t matter. sentience is an arbitrary charcteristic on which to base your diet.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being

    if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way

    Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”

    commie ,

    if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way

    this is just a tu quoque

    oshitwaddup ,

    I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”

    commie ,

    you’re saying it’s not arbitrary. “no, you” is still a form of tu quoque. you haven’t actually made a case that sentience isnt an arbitrary standard, and there isn’t a case to be made: sentience isn’t a natural phenomenon outside of human subjective classification. without people, there would be no concept of green or warm or sentient, and any of those attributes is an arbitrary standard to use to judge the ethics of a diet.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?

    Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)

    I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)

    commie ,

    why sentience and not DNA? or literally any other characteristic? your standard is absolutely arbitrary.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)

    commie ,

    the same can be said of DNA. this is a completely arbitrary standard, and you would be better served to embrace that than pretending it’s somehow objective.

    oshitwaddup ,

    I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.

    If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what I experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what things that experience things experience

    commie ,

    I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.

    this can’t be true. it’s self-contradictory.

    oshitwaddup ,

    ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?

    commie ,

    I mean there is no objective reason to set the standard at sentience any more than any other standard.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?

    commie ,

    all subjective opinions, like ethics or aesthetics, are.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is).

    commie ,

    we are going to, once again, disagree on the relevant definition of “anyone”.

    oshitwaddup ,

    That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?

    commie ,

    yes, I do: sentience is too broad a category, and not actually relevant to most people. if we are talking about people, then all of your statements are fine. but I don’t agree that these axioms are or should be applicable to, say, mosquitos . or mice. or dogs or cats. or fish. or livestock.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)

    commie ,

    it’s too broad because it includes mosquitoes and mice and dogs and cats and fish and livestock. most people don’t treat them the same way. most ethical systems don’t treat them the same way. My ethical system doesn’t treat them the same way. so I do not agree that it’s okay to write an axiom about how you’re supposed to treat sentient beings. treating people better than animals is a good thing.

    oshitwaddup ,

    are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?

    what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?

    commie ,

    name the trait is a fallacious line of argument because it falls prey to the linedrawing fallacy.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible

    commie ,

    right…

    commie ,

    if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence

    this is a moral virtue only to utilitarians.

    oshitwaddup ,

    there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others

    but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways

    commie ,

    but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility.

    this is a good reason to doubt the validity of the theory: it is constructed in a way that it is not disprovable.

    commie ,

    I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways

    it is. your ethical position is highly relevant to any ethical argument you present.

    oshitwaddup , (edited )

    Then present yours lol

    Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)

    commie ,

    I’m not presenting an argument. I’m questioning yours.

    commie ,

    to give an example of a rights based one

    I have to admit, I skipped the rest of this sentence on I don’t foresee myself attempting to read it: I don’t believe in rights as an objective phenomenon, either.

    commie ,

    The vast majority of humans can thrive/be healthy on a vegan diet

    I don’t think so

    oshitwaddup ,

    the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)

    commie ,

    none of those mean that the vast majority of humans can thrive or even be healthy on a vegan diet. and while the food itself may be cheap, it may lack convenience or cultural appropriateness, and therefore come with costs that are hidden at the checkout counter.

    oshitwaddup ,

    sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)

    we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others

    commie ,

    Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals

    do you have a plan to accomplish that? until such a plan is implemented, there is not even a question whether it’s moral to eat meat, seafood, dairy, or eggs: most people have no volition in the matter and no one can actually change that.

    Goldmage263 ,
    @Goldmage263@sh.itjust.works avatar

    All of Lemmy be up in arms here. Just vote with your wallet when you can. Buy the eggs at the farmers market, or the veggies if you won’t eat eggs. If you don’t have the funds, buy what you need to survive. I want my animals treated well before butchering, and I’ll mix the vegetarian meal into my diet regularly because it’s health for me to not eat meat every meal. I’m still going to eat animals, and most people have already decided what they are ethically ok with. Vegetarianism isn’t the biggest ethical concern for me at this time.

    oshitwaddup ,

    I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho

    commie ,

    we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms

    it’s not clear either that this is “the biggest problem” or, if it is, that the best method of solving our ecological woes is to attack it first.

    commie ,

    we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others

    I suspect we disagree about the relevant definition of “others”

    oshitwaddup ,

    Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?

    I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad

    commie ,

    I don’t think dog fighting is a moral issue: at worst, it’s aesthetic.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Really? What about bestiality?

    commie ,

    yea. that, too, is an aesthetic issue. it can be gross without being immoral.

    oshitwaddup ,

    We disagree very strongly

    commie ,

    you think gross things are immoral?

    oshitwaddup ,

    I think that having sex with sentient beings without their consent is extremely immoral

    commie ,

    sentience and consent have nothing to do with one another.

    oshitwaddup ,

    someone experiencing it should have a say in whether or not they experience it

    commie ,

    once again, we are going to be disagreeing on the relevant definitions of “someone”.

    oshitwaddup ,

    the experiencers should have a say in whether or not they experience it

    commie ,

    this is an impossible standard, and I don’t believe it’s one you actually ascribe to: for instance, pretty much everyone is ok with sterilizing stray dogs and cats, and there is never a question of consent.

    oshitwaddup ,

    I don’t claim to 100% live in an ideal way. I try to keep improving but I don’t think I’ll ever be perfect

    i think in cases where consent is difficult or impossible to achieve, we should act in the best interest of the experiencer in question. But I think that example is a tough one, at first glance I think we shouldn’t sterilize them, but then when I consider what will almost certainly happen if they’re not sterilized I think it’s probably worth doing the one bad thing to prevent worse things from happening. It’s an example where I think a utilitarian approach makes the most sense, since the variables are relatively clear

    commie ,

    and a bible believing Christian has a clear answer: it doesn’t matter, you have dominion, do what you want. I imagine you don’t like that reasoning, but it, to, gives clear guidance on the morality.

    I’m not talking about whether you live your values, I’m suggesting you don’t understand the implications of your own values, and under scrutiny you would find them internally inconsistent.

    which is fine, as long as you’re not going out and telling others the right thing to do.

    oshitwaddup ,

    i think I do understand them, I’ve thought about that problem before. Can you go into more detail on what you mean by internally inconsistent? By my understanding, situations in the world can come about where values need to be weighed, or there are only bad choices available, but that doesn’t mean those values should be discarded or replaced or that they shouldn’t be shared/spread.

    commie ,

    either it’s true that you can write an axiom that says “sentient beings should always consent to anything that is done to them” or you can write an axiom that says “you should always do what will bring about the most happiness or at least distress”

    those axioms are in conflict with one another. it’s not that there’s only bad choices. it’s that you’ve given yourself conflicting standards.

    oshitwaddup ,

    Neither of those are axioms I hold. The axiom “all sentient beings are morally relevant” does not specify how to go from there, and I am not convinced that any one ethical framework is “the one”. There are some things that all the ones I’m aware of converge on with a sentientist perspective, but there are weird cases as well like whether to euthanize stray animals where they don’t converge

    commie ,

    detente

    oshitwaddup ,

    lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561 I haven’t put my views in those terms before but even here I say my views are based on sentience. I give an example, and I should have been more clear that I’m not strictly looking at the issue from a utilitarian lense although I get why it would come across that way. At base I’m a sentientist, I think there are many reasonable ways to go from there

    LemmysMum ,

    Conveniently forgetting that the only reason a healthy nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is even remotely possible is due to globalised trade and access to internationally produced and shipped vegetables.

    To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally.

    Here’s a “fun” fact, first world demand for fruit and grain variety has out priced primary sources of food for local populations in third world countries including things like lentils, quinoa, and avocados.

    sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…

    Or that nutritional deficiencies caused by incorrectly managed vegan diets are why doctors in Italy and Belgium are pushing for it to become illegal to feed children vegan diets, because the number of malnourished and dead children of vegan parents are rising in those nations.

    www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…

    Capacity is not the same as actuality.

    oshitwaddup ,

    sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s… did you read the editors note at the bottom?

    independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar… the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!

    theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut… yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote

    Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation

    www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619 last two paragraphs

    telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s… the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no

    To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally

    did I miss the source on this?

    Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w

    while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/

    LemmysMum ,

    Tell that to the 12.8% of Americans that have food insecurity without the struggle of attempting veganism. ers.usda.gov/…/food-security-and-nutrition-assist…

    oshitwaddup ,

    Tell which thing? I wrote a lot

    but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people

    While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people

    cashews_best_nut ,

    Mmmmm smoked kippers. 🤤

    kaffiene ,

    I don’t get why meat eaters have to make cunt responses like this whenever someone expresses concern over the welfare of animals. And I’m a meat eater

    cashews_best_nut ,

    Because I loooooooove the taste of kippers. 🤤

    kaffiene ,

    Or… You’re a cunt. Gottit

    Ataraxia ,

    They didn’t say anything unusual. Smoked kippers are delicious. We have some of the most amazing meat and fish on this planet and that’s something to protect. Our food matters.

    Ataraxia ,

    Lol OK.

    Smokeydope , (edited )
    @Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

    I do have some level of sympathy for the fish but also recognize I’m a little more sympathetic to non-human life than most people. I can’t bring myself to kill insects without a good reason (except ticks and mosquito) not even ants. Whenever my parents would cut down a tree on their property I grieve for the life of the trees lost just because my dad fell off one as a kid and has a subconscious hatred for them now (yes he even admitted to me this was the case) I even feel some guilt about cutting grass and mulching the occasional bee.

    I’ve worked a seasonal job giving medical care to dairy cows, once you see just how poorly farmers treat them and how horrific their short lives are its hard not to feel bad for them. Farmers make standard animal cruelty cases look like mild neglect by comparison. The only blessing is that modern cows have been selectively bread to become so docile as to be almost braindead.

    I’m cool with eating animals, the cycle of life and all that, but in trade we can at least try to give them decent lives that aren’t so fucking awful from birth to death. Like it or not even fish have some level of intelligence and most likely emotional capacity. same with farm animals, trees, mushrooms, insects, and probably even the microorganisms to some degree. To think we are special and the only feeling lifeforms on the planet out o billions just cause the thinky thinky parts of our brain are a little bit bigger than most is just stupid and a very human-centric idea that strokes our own collective ego in a manifest destiny kind of way.

    Yes I know I’m wierd but maybe the world needs a few people like me who care a little too much about non-human suffering.

    kaffiene ,

    You’re not weird bro, you just have empathy. I agree with you

    threeduck ,
    @threeduck@aussie.zone avatar

    That might just be the weirdest turnaround. You can’t hurt a fly, but you’re okay with a cow being bolted through the brain because they’re a bit tastier than mock meets?

    Like, you can’t be “sympathetic to animals” if you’re paying an industry that mass slaughters them. Especially when you’re only paying that out of simple preference. I sure hope you don’t find humans tasty, because it sounds like you’ll set aside all of your morals for a yummy lunch?

    sndrtj ,

    You don’t have to feel bad for cutting grass. That’s grass its entire evolutionary skitch, albeit naturally with being grazed instead of mechanically cut.

    Grass survives cuts extremely well. Most of its mass is below ground. By thriving in areas that are frequently grazed / cut, it outcompetes other plants. Natural meadows without grazers quickly turn into forests. But tree saplings don’t survive being eaten, so whenever there are grazers (or human cuts), grass outcompetes trees.

    pomodoro_longbreak ,
    @pomodoro_longbreak@sh.itjust.works avatar

    It is sad and gross in a way that’s hard to pin down. I can find nature both beautiful and delicious at the same time.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Maybe the latter has something to do with the former. Fish die from plastic; no fish to eat.

    Imgonnatrythis ,

    This made me cry

    Aurenkin ,

    Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.

    Kill a man’s fish with plastic … you don’t feed that fish to him.

    Kyle_The_G ,

    Thats why I’m a pesca-pescatarian, I only eat fish that eat other fish. (joke stolen from Silicon Valley)

    alienanimals ,

    It’s not stolen. It’s an homage!

    FMT99 ,

    Dredging nets over the sea bottom, destroying all underwater habitats to squeeze 5% more fish out of the ocean: I sleep

    Cute turtle with its leg stuck in a six-pack ring: real shit

    byroon ,

    Both are bad

    FMT99 ,

    Well done

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