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lemmy.world has bent the knee to corporations. Consolidated comments into body.

I don’t think this is EEE, I think this is a chance for meta to dominate the narrative by drowning us out with algorithmically curated censorship, distractions, hatred, outrage etc. I would join threads if I want threads, I would be on Reddit if I want corporate influence.

The mastodon post for the same server admins admitting to allow Meta thanks @BrikoX and @Melco

This is the post regarding an admin of fosstodon being offered a secret meeting under a non disclosure agreement

Thanks lunar for articulating my central point better than I could.

Most of my primary content was within the comment section scattered so I’ll try to put it up here and edit more as i go. I was worried I’d butcher things so I avoided updating my post. Ignore the mess

–

EEE - I don’t want to talk specifically about this. Many others are, and you can talk with them about it.

–

Privacy - My views on privacy is that lemmy is already fully public and facebook merging into it probably wont reduce your lemmy privacy in any meaningful way. Ignoring lemmy, your privacy is already fully breached in ways I’m not going to explain here.

–

People keep making blind claims that facebook/meta can’t use their algorithms to interact with us, so i will explain. For the record I know most of this effects mastodon directly, and not so much lemmy.

Threads will be able to control what gets minimised and maximised based on whatever secret algorithms they use. These end results are known to people that want to know, it’s how our parents and grandparents, became increasingly detached from reality. If facebook/meta wants to censor their users, they will, if they want to promote hate against LGBTQs then they will. Those users will then interact with our users, slowly shifting our conversations and the overall culture of lemmy into the same cesspool that is facebook.

Secondly, the content of threads will be selected by a relatively massive userbase which will drown out our content if we stay federated. Of course that content will be optimised by their algorithm, thus influencing fediverse content.

–

Now onto the principle matter. FACEBOOK IS EVIL, like genocidal evil, a propaganda arm of the empire evil. They have a heavily proven track record. “Wait and see”? There is no need to ignore facebook/metas criminal record.

The admins here should have clearly stated their intent but have been deafeningly silent. People are asking for clarification or in my case, acting because of a clear lack of action.

Other posts are talking about this and I will assume you have been reading them.

– pjhenry is a troll that ignores what people actually say, he focuses on his intentional misunderstandings and straw-men, just stop feeding the troll guys, he only wants to fight over nothing. He only acts in bad faith.

witwiz ,
@witwiz@kbin.social avatar

I believe the approach described in https://www.timothychambers.net/2023/07/03/instagram-threads-and.html is much more pragmatic than “Meta is bad, Threads will corrupt us” argument and I honestly believe that fighting among fedi instances would be the first win of EEE strategy. Meta IS bad, federation with Threads may be an opportunity, fighting before even watching and assessing the situation is wrong imho. “Watching Like a Hawk, with our Fingers Over the Block Button.”

Emanresu OP ,

We don’t have to wait and see? Meta has a proven history.

His write up doesn’t cover the issue my post is about, but it does cover a fair bit. I also worry about fracturing the community but see it properly. If everyone rejected meta or if everyone embraced meta, we would be an unfractured community. Unfortunately we aren’t fully one way or the other. The best part though is that we can split into different instances. My biggest issue is that to my knowledge, on lemmy.world there were no announcments stating intent, and to people like me that means pro-corporate and I need to leave. If they just announced I would have just slowly left without much fuss.

i do realise lemmy isn’t effected that badly compared to mastodon, but the basics still stand.

pjhenry1216 ,

Or you can just leave once you actually see what happens. You lose nothing. You're providing no actual problem posed by wait and see. If it isn't good and they defederate after Threads federates, there's very little difference to defederating beforehand. Certainly no permanent problems. I think most people are choosing not to stress and worry for literally no reason, especially when it may not come to pass.

Less stress in your life is better. Worry is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.

tatertime ,

I feel like your post is low info outrage bait.i am no expert on all this but this seems dramatic.

Emanresu OP ,

I made the mistake of not just updating my post when I reply to people. My responses are scattered through the post. I encourage you to ctrl-f.

I was getting sidetracked, but thanks to your encouragement I updated the main post.

tatertime ,

Awesome! Thanks a lot for caring enough to do all this.

Emanresu OP ,

Thanks :) I should have done it sooner. It was a touch exhausting managing a dozen conversations at once. Have you seen my cute downvote collection? haha

Patti_OChair ,

I understand both sides’ points. At the end of the day, it’s like going to your doctor. It’s a personal decision whether you stay and wait this out, or feel an “icky” ping in your gut-- a familiar feeling that doesn’t sit right with you. I’ve read these comments and it really all comes down to how and why you “internet.”

Personally, I’m getting the icky, oh-god-here-we-go feeling because I worry about privacy. I’ve tried to learn what all of this means. The conclusion I’ve come to is that I enjoy the 3D (4D?) world much more. I will always seek these communities for reading and info… but the reality seems to be: People want to connect online. I think I just want to use it to pay bills, look up movie times, and eff off. Signing onto anything requires a risk that I must evaluate-- at least until my hand is forced. Like with paying bills, looking up movie times, shopping and so on.

I share the concerns of OP, but I love what someone on this post said. Something close to: If you think corporate America isn’t coming for free space, you haven’t been on Earth very long… (sorry, person who said this. I’m butchering your comment).

If you’re getting the icky feeling, do something about it. I think we all are “internetting” for different reasons. We aren’t all just going to run away in protest. I may or may not stay, but I will continue to my best to find the quiet places. If it becomes too much, I’ll delete.

In a perfect world, it would be really nice to have a place online to be fun, free, and find reliable information in a quick and orderly fashion. So subscribing to the Fediverse means you will have to do some digging to find the communities you trust.

Emanresu OP ,

Yeah, I think the lack of announcement was why i made this post ultimately. I felt betrayed if they kept their views censored. I’m here because everywhere with close to uncensored(in regards to the evils in the world) speech gets compromised and I let me hopes get the better of me. I just wanna hear new ideas and talk with interesting people. I’d rather not have more standard corporate approved memes and repost bots etc. I don’t want to be in a meta tainted area.

Patti_OChair ,

Yeah. I totally get that. There’s the technical aspect of things, and the the ethical which carries a perceivable looming threat: “We’re coming for you.” I think people sense it, but are trying to play fair and ethical with a monster that has proven time-and-time again that it doesn’t give a shit about our wittle-bitty feewings. That’s the icky feeling I have at the moment. I understand your reason for sounding the alarm and appreciate that you’re sort of like ‘Holdup. Y’all seeing this?’ From there, I think the question becomes, how do we activate our inner Public Enemy and fight the power… or do we? Is it okay to just do us with the hopes of staying under the radar?

I like that you brought this up. Posts like this inspire important conversations that can (at the very least) inspire mods and creators to access the “how” and “why” of participating in the fediverse.

Emanresu OP ,

This was part of my plan all along! To raise awareness about what is happening so that others can do the right thing, or at least start thinking about it in a new way. I didn’t see many others talking about the narrative hijack stuff, so i took a bullet and gave it a go.

I think we all have different skills in this and need to find our easiest ways to personally do something. It’s a part of being in a community after all :). They want to control what we think about and talk about, so we can start by talking about what we aren’t meant to say, and my downvotes paint a clear picture lol. I even had a post mentioning facebook helping enable genocide removed by a mod.

We should make a big deal about the evils of Meta, especially how they control views to help promote genocide and how they are destroying our loved ones minds. @Lunar Said it perfectly. We need to spread that kind of sentiment until we have a better idea of what to do next. We can force them to not federate.

crashex ,

Very nicely put. I’ve used all this for deep reflection about my internetting as well and I don’t think I have come to terms with everywhere being ruined by corporate. It’s not like they don’t fuck us over as well in the real world and I now realize what kind of fight we’re in on- and offline. Don’t want to give up any bit of space to evil corporations. I think it’s easy to create really quiet Lemmy instances (or other social sites, federated or not) where one can rest from all those aggressive algorithms, and if I do it at some point I will make it very connected to real life and good for information gathering. Other than that, I like real life, I’m not interested in much virtual stuff.

Patti_OChair ,

Yes! Agreed. <3 I fundamentally don’t believe that the internet is here to eat humanity alive. Corporations and greed are (sadly) integrated in our daily living in a variety of ways. And while it is wise to keep an eye on what’s going on and vote and engage accordingly, the best we can do is find what is useful without abandoning or compromising our individual quiet spaces. If they took away my ability to delete my account, then we’d have a problem. As long as I have real life to participate in, I’m good. My whole world isn’t inside of my computer screen. :D

open_world ,
@open_world@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a wait-and-see approach.

Emanresu OP ,

We know the history of Meta. We ignore the history to wait and see.

pjhenry1216 ,

This is literally FUD. Unless you can provide actual details of what the problem actually would be, you're just spreading fear with no basis.

emptyother ,
@emptyother@lemmy.world avatar

I’ll wait and see if Facebook is even gonna end up doing federation correctly. Maybe they wont.

fross ,

Given the relative scales, it’s best to put protection in place, then wait and see.

If Threads is a positive place, we open up and nothing is lost.

If Threads is a(nother) cesspit of hate and bots, then we have protected ourselves from it.

pjhenry1216 ,

That argument works the other way a lot better. Mainly because a delay of a day or so won't kill anyone and we'd actually see if it's a cesspool and not some random screenshots or hearsay.

The admin is ready to defederate. Theres no benefit to doing it early.

fross ,

I disagree entirely, that’s simply incorrect. You can observe whether it is a cesspool or not whether you federate or not. The federation will not affect it at all. Everyone is able to go and use Threads, we won’t need to rely on “random screenshots or hearsay”, or to federate in order to see whether it’s good or not.

It’s an unknown quantity, 1000x bigger than the current fediverse. If we federate then block, there is just a mess to clean up. And you know the first few days are going to be a nightmare anyway, as they are with any social media platform, while the controls spin up and new ways to abuse them are found.

The benefit to doing it early is to let it land and let the smoke clear before making a judgement, without creating a mess for existing users. This is really obvious.

pjhenry1216 ,

I fail to understand your benefit. Defederation is extremely quick. If it's a problem, there's no mess to really deal with. I fail to see what the problem is even if it is problematic for a day or two. No one has actually voiced a real concern that provides a valid benefit to defederating beforehand vs seeing what happens and then defederating. You lose absolutely nothing.

fross ,

As you said, “if it is problematic for a day or two”. It could be enormously problematic.

You fail to understand the benefit, and I don’t need to convince you, it’s still correct :)

pjhenry1216 ,

Pretty sure you can't explain what's wrong because you have no idea how ActivityPub works.

Good rebuttal though. "Just trust me I'm right. Stop asking for details or questions. Just do what I say."

AVeryCleverName ,

I think it’s absurd to give Meta the shadow of a benefit of the doubt. in the past, they have explicitly stated their intention to make facebook the internet. If zuck had his way, there would be exactly one website, a monolith collecting your data to more efficiently serve you ads. There is no world in which their participation in the metaverse is not self serving and a net loss for the rest of us.

DrNeurohax , (edited )
@DrNeurohax@kbin.social avatar

I don't WANT to agree, but I kinda do.

We're here because Reddit was shit on top shit, led by gaping anus. We all accept that Meta is the same.
We didn't want Reddit profiting from our work. Meta will do the same, only more competently.

Defederation is useless at scale They can continually spin up new instances that act as spies and bridges to Meta's area.
Once enough Meta bridge nodes are woven into the Fedi, they'll be masked by a backchannel to mask the exchange/activity.

Someone plz tell me I'm wrong, but this is how I think things work in the background...

  • Bob creates a Lemmy node - @Zucc1.ughfuckoff. It has 3 users and basically shops around until someone in lemmy.world's sphere allows federation. Zucc1 looks like any random, small instance.
  • Once federated, Zucc1 syncs to its connected Lemmy instances - for now there is no Meta connection.
  • Zucc1 can then federate with a bunch of other instances, including Zucc2.
  • This repeats for a few weeks, infiltrating Fedi. This could be happening now.
  • A new set of Lemmy nodes spin up and federate only with a portion of the spy instances. The spy instances don't respect the federation rules, distributing portions of the Fedi sync back to the Meta connected nodes, masking the source and destination.
  • Once signed posts are received by the spy nodes, user names are swapped with a table synced by spy and bridge instances. @User1 becomes @User7.
    • The Threads user sees their message from @someone (which can also be swapped if they worry Threads users care about any of this stuff).
    • The Lemmy user sees the message from @User.

Probably easy to combat when it's one instance here and there. If it's constant and automated, federating would have to be paused until the spies are weeded out and there's a better detection strategy. If they get a big enough network going, they could all dip out at once, change identity, and refederate back in as the Fedi network flips out because of all the sync mismatches. Just more new nodes joining in. They have the source code, so they can act differently from other instances as long as it doesn't cause problems.

Is this a realistic scenario or am I way off base? I feel like it has to be one of the two.

SeatBeeSate ,

I'm getting sick of these "time to leave" posts about people wanting to jump ship on each sites decision. Beehaw decided they only want peaceful severs, time to leave. Lemmy.ml was founded by communists, time to leave! Lemmy.world doesn't instantly defederate from other instances, time to leave!

You can't just continually shuffle the community from site it site.

Sentinian ,

While a entire community can’t convince itself to leave, the beauty of the fediverse is if you as a user want to leave it’s very easy to switch instances and get access to most of the same info you want.

gelberhut ,
@gelberhut@feddit.de avatar

If you only scroll-read here - then, yes, it is easy

Sentinian ,

I certainly post and read. I’m happy with my instance currently, but should lemmy.one does something I don’t agree with I will have no problem switching.

sin_free_for_00_days ,

People are so weird. Their online presence means so much to so many. I want to reply to all of them, just switch instances. As important as they feel, nobody is going to bat an eye when they move, yet they feel that they are really losing something if they do.

Sentinian ,

I’m glad someone realizes it. Online presence is something you want to be worthless. If people see worth in that can lead to a set of problems you don’t want.

pozbo ,
@pozbo@lemmy.world avatar

It’s almost like this constant ‘call to leave’ is meta’s Trojan horse.

A way to create discourse, lower patience of users and make them question their new home away from corporate enshittification.

I just ignore posts like this, as a partially functional human I am able to form my own opinions and draw my own lines in the sand.

samokosik ,
@samokosik@lemmy.world avatar

I agree with you. We should not kill them for not defederating immediatelly

Lunar ,
@Lunar@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you for pointing out that this is so much worse than just EEE. Meta has a long history of social and political engineering, and deliberately creating a toxic environment that turned all of our parents and grandparents into deranged conspiracy theorists. They don’t just let hate thrive on their platform, they artificially inflate it in the name of engagement and profit.

I see no reason to assume they won’t do all of this again, and should they do it all again it’s going to impact the entire Fediverse. Even if you just stick to instances that block Meta, if you’re federating with instances that aren’t, the toxic environment Meta is likely to build will come back to you. If the majority of instances fail to block them, I can’t bear to stay here and watch what has become the internet’s most healthy and vibrant community rot from the inside.

I honestly don’t understand why this is even a debate. If even a fraction of the shit meta has pulled was done by a smaller Fediverse instance, we all wouldn’t hesitate to defederate from them.

And to those of you who justify Threads because Meta is somehow the lesser of two evils compared to Twitter, please remember that while Twitter is owned by a raging and incompetent manchild, Meta has eroded democracies and played a major role in a genocide. Don’t fucking support these murderers. Meta is more than happy to spread even more hatred and killing in the world if it boosts their profits.

Emanresu OP ,

Thank you so much for being the first to properly understand the threat I was trying to express. You said it so much better than I could at the time.

I think the reason we are debating is because there are already bots and bad actors working hard to change and forge opinion. I think this style of fediverse just died, but we are close to easily making a new better one.

pjhenry1216 ,

I'm gonna need to see an argument on how Threads' toxicity will reach places that are at least once removed. You can't just use it as evidence when it's not even clear it would happen. It's like saying this community is already tainted because there are folks who also have Instagram accounts. If it's not via people spreading the toxicity, I'm all ears to hear your reasoning. Cause it's far from just being obvious.

What are you even arguing anyway? You're saying defederating Threads isn't even enough. There's no sign they'll even federate beyond platforms of similar concept (micro logging as opposed to link sharing/exchange).

Are you just saying by simply existing, if everyone doesn't defederate them, the fediverse dies?

Emanresu OP , (edited )

Your reply is a perfect example of how threads actions are causing toxicity in lemmy.world.

edit: Id just like to point out that at no point does he respond about meta being evil and unworthy to associate with, which is the important part he should be talking about.

pjhenry1216 ,

I'd argue your attacking of other people shows that Threads isn't the reason behind people being toxic. Folks like you simply exist.

jerdle_lemmy ,

It’s all getting a bit Judean People’s Front around here. I know there’s a generally leftist userbase, but do we have to do this?

That’s less about defederating with Meta. Meta are the Romans. It’s about people defederating with anyone who federates with Meta.

WhoRoger ,
@WhoRoger@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not surprised, but disappointed. And I’m even tired to talk about it. It’s just so fucking dumb.

Emanresu OP ,

fosstodon has the same stance as lemmy.world. I don’t know if they have a lemmy.

WhoRoger , (edited )
@WhoRoger@lemmy.world avatar

Wait, did I read something wrong… I thought they were like “we don’t want to talk to Meta at all”.

Edit: oh yes I see.

MyOpinion ,

This grand standing and these purity tests about threads are sickening.

mintiefresh ,

Man… I just got here.

skellener ,
@skellener@kbin.social avatar

We want to prevent enshittification. Not encourage it.

rowdyrockets ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    GONADS125 ,

    Is there any way to move a community? I created !vans but I will not be hosting this community on this instance if it federates with Threads. Also going to stop donating to Lemmy.world if this is the route they will take.

    samokosik ,
    @samokosik@lemmy.world avatar

    Is there any way how to move account into another instance? Basically so I don’t lose posts.

    I myself am interested what lemmy.world’s admins will do. Now they get a lot of criticism for not doing anything but so far I wouldn’t blame them that much.

    PS: I would probably still defederate if it was my decision

    Emanresu OP ,

    You would have to make a new account. Not sure how i feel about not having account migration. It’s got its good and bad points. Sad to make a second account though.

    Galaxyboy_3598 ,

    I was going to switch from lemmy.world to lemmy.ml but disappointed that I’d be losing all my comment & post history. Not to mention you have to re-subscribe to all your communities again.

    irkli ,
    @irkli@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh please, spare us the silly drama.

    Consider reading this brief explanation of the issues by one of the ActivityPub authors…

    blog.joinmastodon.org/…/what-to-know-about-thread…

    pinkdrunkenelephants ,

    If personal attacks are the only response you can give, then they’re clearly right and you’re clearly wrong.

    STUPIDVIPGUY ,

    “drama”? that faq thing doesn’t change the fact that we don’t respect meta and don’t want to share a platform with them

    and it’s no surprise the authors of the software are supportive of its mass adoption, that doesn’t mean I have to tolerate a shitty company

    milicent_bystandr ,

    we don’t respect meta and don’t want to share a platform with them

    I guess a big part of the dilemma is, though we mightn’t respect meta, some of us respect some of the people who use their services - even like some of them - and would like to be in the loop with them without using meta’s services ourselves directly

    I’m on a Lemmy instance that’s preemptively defederated, and I respect that, but I might think about creating an account on another instance so I can have interoperability … That said, I’ve done pretty well almost entirely ignoring Facebook and Instagram so far, so maybe I just won’t care enough

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