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Thoughts Around KBin's Current Status and the Importance of Community Migration Features

So my understanding is that KBin.social is now gone from the internet for the indefinite future. Ernest, who meant well, simply could not keep up with the demands due to his personal life and the development issues that were cropping up all the time. Let me get ahead of any replies and say that it’s perfectly reasonable to shut down a large instance if it’s taking up your time and money or becoming a burden on your personal life. Personal health should always come before a bunch of random dudes/dudettes that happen to be on the internet. Additionally, it’s a good reminder that developing software while also maintaining a large instance probably isn’t a good idea and that you should probably make sure you’re taking a reasonable amount of work off your plate.

But I can’t help but feel like there’s another story here regarding the potential risks of the fediverse: Admins need to be ready to migrate ownership to others who are willing to take on the financial or user account management burden. Additionally, there should be a larger focus on community migration features for more flexibility to sudden instance losses.

I managed a community that had partially migrated to Kbin after the great reddit exodus last year and managed to continue to admin said community up until a few months ago when Kbin’s service became very very spotty. I understood Ernests’ particular dilemma so I was willing to give it a month or two to figure out what actions I needed to take to migrate the community again, but enough time has passed now that I am no longer confident that Kbin will return to even a read-only, moderator only state. This means that whatever community I had there is now completely out of my control and the users might not know why posts have stopped entirely. Basically, I have to start from the ground up which might be OK but I’m not particularly keen to start it all over right now.

So this is basically a plea to the admins out there: If you are having trouble with management and need to stop, could you please give the community a vocal heads up so that whatever subcommunity happens to form on your site has some means of migrating? Additionally, software out there should have more policies for community migration, whether that’s lemmy or mbin, as we never know when it might be necessary to migrate to a new domain under different ownership. Lastly, if there’s an option to give ownership to others in the community, please consider it as it would really help the fediverse if admins were willing to migrate domain and databases to other users who are willing to carry the torch.

That’s it from me for now, thanks for reading this minor rant. 🤙

abff08f4813c ,

Has there been any news from ernest or regarding kbin.social at all?

It's different from e.g. kbin.run or kbin.cafe (neither of which even load anymore). kbin.social appears to be broken but the servers are still around and kicking - just with no one to go in and fix things. But doesn't this mean that someone has kept kbin.social around and alive?

So ernest may not be able to get to it anytime soon, but might it not reappear in a year or two - when ernest has recovered a bit and had a good break and holiday?

The latest I've seen is from https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues/1383 where two months ago ernest said he's try to fix things, and nothing since. Was wondering if everyone was just assuming it's gone since ernest has been MIA for so long - or if anyone has heard of something a bit more definite about the subject.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I really miss kbin… 😔(no hard feelings, I genuinely wish Ernest the best and hope he makes a comeback)

I actually tried migrating my account from there before the major issues, as a backup, but realised it didn’t back up my blocked lists, which are much harder for me to recreate than my subscribed list and settings are, so decided to wait and see if anyone improved the migration tools.

Then it became too late, and I had to start from scratch, and am now regretting the instance I chose, and have not yet had the brain space to check out the other kbin/mbin instances and find a new one I like. Until then I’m reluctant to participate.

If anything, the last couple of months, with kbin dying and realising how uncomfortable I am on an instance run by people who have expectations from their users I fundamentally disagree with, have made me want to start my own private kbin/mbin instance for myself so that I don’t end up in either situation again, but I don’t know that it’s something I can take on, having no programming knowledge or any experience with anything like that.

So yes, I agree with you, for more than the reasons you’ve provided, and I hope we, as a general community use these developments to learn and improve.

ipkpjersi ,

I think the bigger issue is Ernest simply refused outside help. He took everything on himself and didn’t allow outside contributions, which is just not sustainable for a project of that size. It’s a shame because I really wanted to like KBin, especially since it’s written in PHP and I’m a PHP developer, but Lemmy ended out winning.

melroy ,
@melroy@kbin.melroy.org avatar

Yea true. He didn't like to have outside help.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

That’s unfortunate. I switched to kbin from Reddit and really liked the community feel. That’s what sold me on the fediverse. But seeing as there wasn’t SSO across from kbin to lemmy, I had a second account for the latter as there was a lot more activity on lemmy and I used kbin less and less as the site spent more time broken.

I agree there should be some more formal way of letting community operators know their instance is going away. However, the fediverse not having any way of enforcing any such rule, means we’re still looking at individual whim determining whether or not an instance will simply disappear overnight or give users time to move.

Socsa ,

Sort of makes you wonder who is funding lemmy.ml

Lazycog ,
@Lazycog@sopuli.xyz avatar

IIRC lemmy.ml is the showcase server for lemmy software as a whole, so the organizations and individual donors who fund lemmy development also fund lemmy.ml

They mention the bigger donors here

Might be pulling this out of my ass, but I recall that one of the platinum donors gets their money to fund open-source software from EU.

Socsa ,

Yeah no $3k/m isn’t funding their full time dev work with infrastructure. It seems likely they have sources of funding they don’t disclose for whatever reason.

Lazycog ,
@Lazycog@sopuli.xyz avatar

Agreed, but I must admit I haven’t dug deeper so I have no clue.

Mars2k21 ,
@Mars2k21@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah I’ve pretty much accepted that kbin.social is just gone at this point. I also owned a community there (/m/ai). I didn’t have any spammers appear, but it eventually just died since spam ruined the rest of the instance.

The signs were already there months in advance, but most of us stayed on the instance in hopes that the dev would eventually take up one of the offers to help maintain the instance. Was fun while it lasted, and was the best alternative to Reddit for sure as a software. I don’t even know how Ernest kept up with development during the initial Reddit exodus lol.

Honestly, I’m not impressed with Lemmy so far and I don’t really vibe with mbin for personal reasons even though the software is great.

This whole kbin story has just pointed out a lot of flaws in the Fediverse as a whole for me. I still like the idea, but the execution needs improvement.

JackbyDev ,

I’m going to say it, community migration is probably more important than user migration features. While there is no official user migration there are scripts to carry over preferences and subscriptions to a new instance. Easy peesy. But community migration is a much more important concept if only because communities are what make Lemmy great.

Mirroring content is probably easy enough, but I don’t know if we’ll ever see a way for the ActivityPub spec to say “This Group is actually now this Group” or if that would even be a good idea.

Blaze ,

“This Group is actually now this Group”

Locking the previous community with a post to the new one usually works quite well

rglullis ,
@rglullis@communick.news avatar

At the moment of writing this there are 90 comments, none of them even considering the idea that this whole Fediverse thing is never going to be a worthy contender for a healthier Internet if we keep treating it as some hippie, amateur, “community is all you need” project.

“You get what you pay for” is still true. If the thousands of people using kbin contributed with $10/year, you can bet that the developer wouldn’t be in this situation.

We might come up with all the schemes to try to mitigate the issues and warts of federated software, but it would help a lot more if most people understood that software developers and instance admins are still professionals who still have ambitions and would like to be paid for their work accordingly.

Blaze ,

Do Mastodon users have to pay their admins? Iirc most of them still rely on donations

rglullis ,
@rglullis@communick.news avatar

Mastodon is not any better. Plenty of stories of instances that disappeared, admins made amateur mistakes and lost databases, moderators burn out and leave everything…

Even the “successful” donation-based instances make enough money to cover only the costs of hosting and the admins and moderators are expected to do all the grunt work out of “love for their community”. It’s simply not sustainable, and it will become even less so with all the upcoming regulations and controls around social media.

Zuckerberg will use and abuse of regulatory capture to make it impossible to run an instance without significant costs. If we don’t “suit up” and professionalize the Fediverse quickly, we will have no other choice to put all social media infrastructure on his hands.

aeharding ,
@aeharding@vger.social avatar

60 days notice is standard on Mastodon, it would be nice to see instances commit to that.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

This happened with Firefish too, I was so disappointed.

Blaze ,

Iceshrimp is still around

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Catodon picked up where Firefish left off too.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

Firefish is still in development <a href="" rel="nofollow">https://firefish.dev/firefish/firefish</a>

BonesOfTheMoon ,

The head developer has vanished and nobody has access anymore.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

Development is still in progress. See here <a href="" rel="nofollow">https://firefish.dev/firefish/firefish</a>

BonesOfTheMoon ,

This link does not open.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar
yessikg ,
@yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Sharkey is pretty good

BonesOfTheMoon ,

It is! So is Catodon, the UI is fantastic.

Blaze ,

The *key UIs are so refreshing

Fitik ,
@Fitik@fedia.io avatar

True, it's also a soft fork of Misskey (meaning that they stay upstream), so as long as Misskey is alive Sharkey should be alive as well

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

yes but sharkey rose from the ashes :)

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

Firefish is still alive - every week an update of the stable release! Why do you post here fake news?

BonesOfTheMoon ,

I’m talking about Firefish.social, the microblog platform.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

And I am talking about the software Firefish which is still developed. So “Firefish is dead” is very unclear information.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Firefish the social microblog platform is gone.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

What nonsense. An instance is running here without any problems and with very frequent updates.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Where?

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar
BonesOfTheMoon ,

But where is the social media site? Firefish.social is gone and sold to someone else. I don’t know what everyone is talking about here.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

“Firefish” ist NOT a sole instance, it’s a software which is running on different servers (see the list). Even if the instance firefish.social is no longer running, the software Firefish is still being developed and continues to run on many servers and therefore Firefish is not dead.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Well the social platform is gone and that’s what I meant.

hiker ,
@hiker@lemmy.ml avatar

And as already said - your “Firefish is dead” was wrong. It’s only this platform - Firefish is developed and is running on a lot of servers.

Treczoks ,

I just dropped Kbin from my bookmarks yesterday. I’m sad to see it gone, as it had some nice features.

DarkThoughts ,

mbin has several working instances such as fedia.io, and is community developed.
https://github.com/MbinOrg/mbin

Pretty much all of the major issues that kbin had were long fixed in mbin, hence why I eventually switched.

rotmulaaginskyrim ,

Is the app support better now? Last I heard, kbin didn’t have nice APIs that apps could use

DarkThoughts ,

There's an API now, but the only app I'm aware of is Interstellar, which only has a card view, which is not something for me and I also couldn't log back into it at some point. I think Eternity for Lemmy wants to add mbin support in the future but I have no idea how far away that is. So, app support yes, apps themselves, not so much.

FarFarAway ,

I found kbin.run as well

DarkThoughts ,

Yes, that's one of the many mbin instances that you can find in the various instance lists linked on their Github page.

BlorpTheHagraven ,

I really liked kbin too. Left Reddit early into the migration and went straight there. It got too buggy to use, so I went on holiday to bsky for a minute (not my thing). When I came back, it was gone, sadly. So, here I am.

Blaze ,

Welcome back

BlorpTheHagraven ,

Thank you!

Passerby6497 ,

Man, I’m super glad I gave up on kbin at Christmas and migrated when I still had access to everything.

Sorry to hear you lost your community, but I’d be lying if I said this was a surprising outcome. Even back then people were seeing the writing on the wall with ernest’s personal issues, and personal issues are fine and we all have to deal with it. But as someone who has tried to run microservices for friends, I could tell he was less than a year from just turning the servers off.

Here’s hoping you can at least partially resurrect your community. And that ernest is able to get to a good place.

DarkThoughts ,

Yeah, I switched to mbin soon enough, because I felt the issues rather increased than getting less over the time.

HubertManne ,

I sorta wish the strengths of the fediverse could be utilized by having some redundancy. Im not saying every instance should replicate everything but it would be great if you could make an account for two or three instance and then get some secret to copy and paste into each other to link them up. Maybe even allow a max of 3 for syncing.

Fitik ,
@Fitik@fedia.io avatar

@MoogleMaestro If you liked kbin (like me) I suggest checking out mbin(kbin hard fork), I moved to it a year ago when I seen first red flags, and I don't regret it

https://joinmbin.org/

DarkThoughts ,

Did you not read his actual post?

Fitik ,
@Fitik@fedia.io avatar

@DarkThoughts I have, but they're not the only who read comments, it's not directed only at them, it's directed at all ex-kbin users

@MoogleMaestro

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Admins need to be ready to migrate ownership to others who are willing to take on the financial or user account management burden.

Yes. Even more, any administration (and frankly community mod team too) needs to have backups in place from the start. Or at least very early.

It’s not hard. Find someone willing to be a co-admin or mod. If you can’t do that … then you’re not actually in a position to be an admin (or even a mod).

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