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viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Without context, that comment sounds ok to me?

Quill7513 ,

Okay. I’ll remember you’re a transphobe for later.

You know trans people as oppressed people are allies against our oppressors, right? Not granting them personhood benefits the bourgeoisie

j4k3 , (edited )
@j4k3@lemmy.world avatar

You’re not contextualizing reasonably here. The bourgeoisie in his context meaning, the capitalist class. It is just a comment about how it has tilted to fashionable to support LGBT. That is a reasonable statement. Participation in events is a controversial subject for many. Personally I believe gendered sports should be entirely eliminated in favor of singular combined competition of humans, but I’m a giant dude that loves cycling, where a little woman could have a real advantage over someone like me. I find sports that lack such diverse nuance somewhat outdated.

Many might not see the two party system of the USA as what it presents itself as internally. It is not hard to say, this is a one party system that wears two masks and be entirely uninterested in which clown color mask faces forward at the moment.

I see indifference. I see neutrality. I don’t see two sides of a conversation with transparency that qualifies the accusation friend. Feel free to post with transparency though.

jeffw ,
@jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe you need the context of all the transphobic shit that’s happened lately, like the Olympics boxing stuff? Idk, it still seems transphobic without context. No clue who this guy is though

Quill7513 ,

Lead Lemmy dev

Zaktor ,

The context is they’re positively stating the “men in women’s sports” part of that exchange.

lemmy.ca/comment/10767763

xnx OP ,

Here’s the context lemmy.ca/comment/10767763

MxRemy ,

Woww wtf!!

UraniumBlazer ,

I think they’re responding to a transphobic comment and not being transphobic themselves. I think they’re addressing a far left, socially conservative conspiracy of saying “trans people r bourgeoisie inventions for culture wars to distract the public from the class war”. This person is saying that this is a far fetched idea.

I’m correct in understanding this, right?

Quill7513 ,

Gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not understanding right.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Still not clear on what’s so trans phobic here (having read the context, which is a private message TBC).

It seems like they’re saying that major coordinated transphobic misinformation from the bourgeoisie is unlikely given that there’s also clear pro-trans activity. Whixh is superficial IMO as such doesn’t discount multiple activities but it certainly isn’t defunct logic I’d say, where there are clearly transphobes and plenty of transphobic energy in mainstream culture at the moment.

But I don’t think they’re saying transphobia isn’t a problem. The first rule of the instance they admin is against transphobia, for example. It seems to me all they’re saying is that it isn’t a major mission by the bourgeoisie. Which compared to making corporations and capitalism happy is maybe not unfair.

vzq , (edited )

Oh man. That’s some sick shit. He had obviously been saving up this speech, waiting for an occasion to spring it on some unsuspecting poster.

UraniumBlazer ,

Oof. Tankies rlly r weird, huh

Beaver ,
@Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

That’s not the situation at all.

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

The only thing that surprises me is that anyone is surprised.

I don’t intend that to be snarky, more jokey. But, yeah, it’s pretty much common knowledge. Not the first time they’ve expressed unpleasant opinions on the subject, though not quite this bluntly. There was a minor kerfluffle over it not too long after the reddit exodus.

And it isn’t unexpected tbh, that’s a pretty bog standard tankie take, if perhaps a tad more trope filled.

To me, lemmy is kinda like a less important version of the Apollo missions. You put up with someone unpleasant because they can get the job done, until things get to the point it can be done without them. German scientists, tankie devs. Yeah, yeah, von Braun wasn’t a “real” nazi; whatever.

At some point, either lemmy gets enough movement to get a less extreme team on board, it gets forked, or something else comes along.

Quill7513 ,

I’ll keep posting about Sublinks as long as Lemmy is primarily developed by people whom suck

threelonmusketeers ,

How is Sublinks development going? Are they getting close to Lemmy as far as features go? Any stable instances yet?

I’m aware of the project, but haven’t been following it closely the past few months.

Blaze ,

I’m on the Matrix space, things are still moving.

No release date yet, and it’s summer so people are on annual leave

goferking0 ,

One instance admin said they were switching any day now like a month ago 😂.

Blaze ,

Ouch 😅

goferking0 ,

Oh my bad, was just soon

beehaw.org/comment/3690558

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Genuinely curious … what exactly is the problematic stance here?

Is it that they think the boxer was a biological male and therefore trans female? Or is it referring to then as a biological male (which seems justifiably politically incorrect to me but not heinous in trying to point out that the Olympic/bougousie can’t be that transphobic, could honestly be a language problem).

Or is it the statement that the bourgeoisie aren’t trans phobic?

Sekoia , (edited )

“The transgender topic” is already weird as a statement (kinda like “the gay agenda”, it comes off as only considering it as a political statement?), and “clearly promoted by the bourgeoisie” implies it’s bad.

“As far as […] lgbt flags on government buildings”: it’s… not far at all? Again, weird statement.

“Biological male” is both wrong for the boxer (she’s cis) and generally used for transphobia (trans women on HRT aren’t biological males by any reasonable definition). It’s also generally conspiratorial.

Overall it’s not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Overall it’s not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.

Yea that was my impression too. AFAIU, they’re from Europe so there may be a language barrier too. Don’t know how true that is though of course.

Otherwise, tangentially, as far as all the anti-tankie sentiments that may have been prompted by this are concerned, I’ve only seen good culture from them on trans issues.

EDIT: and thanks for the reply!

Arbiter ,

The idea that trans rights are some kind of bourgeoisie conspiracy.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

I personally don’t see that in the statement … at all actually. Maybe they believe that, I don’t know … but I’d need to seem more to believe that.

From the context of the conversation, it seems more like the inversion, where they doubt that transphobia is some kind of bourgeoisie conspiracy given that trans-rights are getting support from enough parts of mainstream society.

Which IMO, as I’ve said in other comments, is a rather superficial angle on the whole thing (from both sides of the posted conversation). There’s undoubtedly a lot of transphobic energy in mainstream society, with plenty of influential people being shitty people about it, but whether it is or isn’t some conspiracy or whatever doesn’t seem like a helpful way of looking at it.

I could of course be wrong and ignorant. It just seems to me like the malice v incompetence dynamic, where most people can be vile for pretty base reasons, without culture playing a big role but without it having to be some conspiracy or organised effort (as the person nutomic was responding to was claiming)

spiderman ,

what if they are turned out to be like this or hate other set of people? lemmy by design is defederated so even if the devs are like this, you can just simply call out them or leave their lemmy server lol. i am sure there are trans friendly lemmy servers out here.

as long as lemmy by design is against any sorta people, you dont have to boycott it.

xnx OP ,

Yeah lets ignore the lead dev’s opinions on stuff its not like they have power over the project and a big number of users on their server.

Its ironic you say this from the ani.social instance which was previously defederated from ml because the lead devs thinks all anime is degenerate or something like that and it ruined the anime community since ani.social was still too small

spiderman ,

Like I said in my earlier comment, if the devs make changes in lemmy which by design discriminates any sorta people, yeah people should be leaving lemmy. Twitter just shoves and boosts hate and polically biased posts (favoring elon, the app’s ceo). Lemmy devs are just extreme leftists (tankies in lemmy’s language), but it doesn’t push or shove their views onto me or anyone (in my knowledge).

Its ironic you say this from the ani.social instance which was previously defederated from ml because the lead devs thinks all anime is degenerate or something like that and it ruined the anime community since ani.social was still too small

lemmy.ml defederated with us, it was just one instance. it is unfair and not justified but again, I dont miss much because of that.

maegul , (edited )
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

So, for context

  • this is one of admins of lemmy . ml.
  • that instance’s first rule is

No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.

  • This person is also one of the core devs of lemmy

Because, IMO, fedi drama is almost always overstated and overblown, especially when it comes to specific “incidents” … because we’ve gotten addicted to social media drama/rage …

I’ll provide my own impression without any context, pretending I’m a relevant moderator

  • it seems they’re challenging the notion that the same culture can be both pro-trans and anti-trans at the same time.
  • which seems superficial unless it’s about a specific incident
  • they seem to think that the Olympic boxer that’s caused an incident is actually born biologically male but is a trans female, and cite as much as proof that the west is not wholly anti-trans
  • my own impression is that the boxer being biologically male is mostly rumour and accusation, but I’m not close to the story at all and can understand how someone not following the olympics would conclude that they’re trans
  • without context I’m not sure I could conclude whether this is transphobic, at all actually.
  • Probably misinformed, but I’m also not informed on that issue, which also seems to be a moving “story”.
  • The user’s perspective is also relevant here, where being a known communist, they’re likely to think anything the west does is flawed and always boils down to class issues.
  • so given that it’s a sensitive topic, I’d follow up the comment with an attempt to frame the sensitivity of the issue and ask the author to consider editing their comment or reconsidering their stance just to flag the potentially transphobic reading of the comment.

Here’s the killer though … this seems like it’s a private message in response to a query … in which case I’m not sure there’s any moderation to be done and without more I’m not convinced this transphobic at all.

s08nlql9 ,

I thought you mistyped PixelFed lol. Good to see there’s another Lemmy clone like sublinks.

Achyu , (edited )

The bourgeoisie would only care about profits and maintaining their power, right? They’d be both pro-lgbtqia+ and anti-lgbtqia+ if it gets them profit and/or pushes attention away from their misuse of power.
Like selling Che Geuvara T-shirts, while running propaganda against him.

Or are they seeing transphobia as mainly a reaction of religion/conservativeness? Even then a part of the bourgeoisie would try to profit off them, right?

Or did they respond as such because they saw the bait-y bourgeoisie remark(there are screenshots of the convo in the comments there)?

Would be good to see their response other than a screenshot of one reply in their private message convo.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Yea I think this is the context of their comment. Compared to buttressing capitalism, being pro or against trans people is neither here nor there as far as major coordinated missions from the bourgeoisie (or mainstream or whatever).

That they seem to think the boxer in question was biological make is likely off/inaccurate AFAICT, but that’s a moving story and not following it closely is no major issue I’d say.

Some insensitive or inappropriate language is going on here maybe. But I wouldn’t know and would want to defer to trans people to guide any understanding.

saltesc ,

Next time someone asks me what Lemmy’s like, I’ll just refer them to this post.

“And see? That’s my comment down here with the gif.”

https://c.tenor.com/_QQbHwS-MfsAAAAC/tenor.gif

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Honestly seems dumb to me. The vast majority of lemmy is not like this at all. It all depends on what you subscribe to.

That there’s always some background radiation of Fedi drama … yea I’d agree with you on that … sad to see TBH. IMO, some just want to create drama and get tribal without actually doing anything positive.

saltesc ,

A rant on social issues, a spin on development, and a nonchalant passive-aggressieness… Nah, that’s a lot of Lemmy. If the profile pic was a fursona, that’d be 💋👌

Hell, just look at these comments lol. You’re in denial or you’ve gotten good at ignoring it.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re in denial or you’ve gotten good at ignoring it.

Maybe. I’m plugged into my fair share of Fedi drama around the fediverse I’d say.

A big difference I suspect is between those who scroll All and those who rely on subscribing.

Otherwise, I don’t think this is a lemmy thing, it’s a fediverse thing. Even BlueSky. A sad trait amongst people has been exposed by alternative social … people are meaner to open source voluntary devs than big corp extractive owners.

Elevator7009 ,

I agree very much about Subscribing vs. All.

I hear about the lemmy.ml drama on Fediverse but my actual experience is no drama and I do not 100% know what is happening.

I also put my head in the sand and only look at my Subscribed, which includes zero politics or "this company did this awful thing"-style depressing news as I'm oversensitive and too prone to doomscrolling. I stay informed somewhere else, not on the Fediverse where people can put so many understandably upset comments that encourage me to doomscroll. And I'd imagine those types of posts, which I know to be prevalent on Local or All, attract comments from people with strong political views, which is probably part of the lemmy.ml drama. I could probably block all the politics posts with a couple community blocks, but not the miseryposting (understandable, people want to vent or post an on-topic news article, I just cannot handle it personally without doomscrolling more things like it) that attracts "and this problem was caused because of [insert politics here]" replies—so many communities are appropriate places to post news that happens to be sad, or a meme about how much your life sucks.

Blaze ,

Same approach here

Varyk , (edited )

Bourgeoisie means the middle class, it’s frustrating that term has become incorrectly popularized as “those in power” or “the upper crust”.

db0 ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Not quite. Bourgeois were the merchant class which was the middle one during feudal times. But now they have become the ruling class and the term has started changing in meaning, but the old use still Is valid

Varyk ,

I’ve heard the argument, but we already have more accurate terms like “capitalist”.

I’m not saying people are going to stop using those terms, I just find personally find it silly.

It’s like calling a truck a bicycle, and then having to explain every time that you understand a truck isn’t really a “bicycle” but you have to call it a “bicycle” because everybody else calls it a bicycle.

db0 ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Marxists tend to get stuck in definitions that were used in Marx’s time, so I always try to interpret things in that way as well when talking to one to see if it makes sense and avoid misunderstandings. I prefer to talk about the actual issues than to bicker about definitions

Varyk ,

I get that.

I feel like if it’s small enough that there’s no ambiguity about what you’re talking about and you can move past it, that’s the way to go.

I feel like a lot of the time though, people are using different definitions consistently specifically to evoke certain context clues in an efforts to avoid defining exactly how relevant their comment is to the issue ostensibly being presented.

So in a real-life c Toyota onversation, I’ll usually clarify what they mean first, and if it’s close enough to what we were talking about, we move on and keep talking.

Often with internet comments, I receive “no, I only mean this phrase or word, this is an equally valid definition”, that means that we aren’t even talking about the same thing and there’s no point in pursuing the matter since they’re focused on putting on a performance for dinner ulterior motive instead of making a point.

Goalposts and all that

otl ,
@otl@hachyderm.io avatar

@xnx PieFed won’t have an app any time soon due to the way it’s implemented. It’s still awesome without a native app because it’s fast and doesn’t really need direct access to hardware to do its thing.

Tech detail: PieFed is a Python app using Flask and server-side rendered HTML templates. It is super fast as there’s no heavy Javascript framework being used. The maintainer has written about how PieFed is developed with poor internet connections in mind: https://piefed.social/post/6102

@fediverse

threelonmusketeers ,

PieFed won’t have an app any time soon due to the way it’s implemented.

Why is that? They seem pretty similar on the surface, so I’m curious differences exist under the hood which would preclude app development.

hendrik ,

There isn't anything stopping this. It's just that no one is working on an app. And there isn't any API implemented (yet) for an app to hook in to and fetch posts and comments. Both could be programmed. Someone could also copy the Lemmy API and use arbitrary Lemmy apps with Piefed. I think the developer is open to any of that and I'm pretty sure I read some feature request. It's just that the focus currently is on other things. And Piefed works well as an progressive web app. You can open it in your browser and click "Add to home screen" and you'll get an icon and a browser window that pretty much feels like an app. I'm using that and also don't see any benefit in putting in the effort to maintain an app, when it works well as is.

threelonmusketeers ,

Both could be programmed. Someone could also copy the Lemmy API and use arbitrary Lemmy apps with Piefed.

This seems like an interesting idea. On one hand, I could see how it could hamper development, but on the other hand, it would be nice if all of the threadiverse platforms (Lemmy, Piefed, Sublinks, Mbin?) were standardized enough that the apps could be interoperable. I think giving users multiple options for how to access and interact with the content would be good for the fediverse as a whole.

hendrik ,

That would be nice. In practice, not even ActivityPub as the underlying protocol is standardized enough to ensure interoperability between the microblogging, threaded conversations, videos, etc. As far as I understand, it's pretty minimal and even voting etc isn't as standardized as it needed to be. So I don't have much hope for another protocol being that well-defined and agreed upon, if we don't even have that.

That being said... ActivityPub defines server to server and client to server communication. I think a good way to tacke this is do away with extra Lemmy, Piefed, Mastodon and Peertube clients/apps, and have all the apps speak ActivityPub with the servers/instances. That's already implemented on the server side. It'd do away with implementing any extra APIs. And make any app compatible with any Fediverse project. But we need a new ActivityPub protocol revision for that. Well-defined and with quite some extras. compared to what we have now. And everyone needs to agree on this and implement it. But in my eyes that would solve a lot of issues that are currently slowing down the Fediverse.

otl ,
@otl@hachyderm.io avatar

@threelonmusketeers @hendrik This is how many Fediverse microblogging systems currently work; they serve the Mastodon API for client to server (e.g. app to server) interactions. GoToSocial doesn't even provide any user interface; you use it from some app originally designed for Mastodon. Why? I think because Mastodon's HTTP API is simpler, better documented and well-tested compared to something like ActivityPub's Client-To-Server API.

@fediverse

db0 ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The only thing piefed needs for an app is a flask rest framework. It’d not hard

xnx OP ,

Any chance you will be able to help develop that?

db0 ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I could but sadly I’ve got my hands full with my other projects atm.

GBU_28 ,

Can you link to the GH issues?

xnx OP ,

There is none yet. They use codeberg not github btw

Heres an issue on lemmy api compatibility. They got far enough so some Lemmy apps already sorta work but it hasnt been completed codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/issues/13#issuecomment-1…

Heres an issue on allowing the website to be isntalled as a PWA but help is needed on the iOS front codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/issues/179

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

How is the server performance of Piefed compared to Lemmy? Python isn’t exactly known for its speedy web frameworks.

otl ,
@otl@hachyderm.io avatar

@skullgiver Good Q. Some thoughts... a standard Python, Flask, PostgreSQL app can handle hundreds of requests per second on a single machine. Any bottlenecks - Lemmy or PieFed - would probably not be at the language yet. For example, Lemmy's poor performance when I looked ~1 year ago came from a bizarre disregard for things like relational DB query optimisation, HTTP caching, and how the stock frontend lemmy-ui fetched data. Yet Lemmy is written in Rust which is known for speed.

@fediverse

BentiGorlich ,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

You cloud give mbin a try its developers are nice people :)
Although there is only one app for it (interstellar)

Blaze ,

When you guys implement github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues/486 I might switch.

I’m not the biggest fan the Mbin interface (that’s mostly a taste issue, nothing wrong with it per se), but that feature could be enough for me to give it another try

BentiGorlich ,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

Give it a thumbs up so we know what to prioritize 😊

I've been focusing on the backend and federation stuff. But I promise that we will implement it this year :)

Blaze ,

Great, I just did!

Elevator7009 ,

I have asked before and I am curious. I do not mean this to crap on people who want an app but I wonder why an app is a desired thing. I use Mbin and Lemmy on mobile completely through my browser and I'm having a good time with both.

Blaze ,

Different strokes for different folks

Elevator7009 ,

I understand that. I want to know specifically what attracts these people with different tastes to an app, and what makes them not want to use it in the browser. I generally don't judge on taste but I do get curious about why peoples' tastes are what they are.

TisI ,

I always have the same thoughts when people say they use browsers. Apps are (in my experience) much more practical to use. Also, I think browsers are an ok option on a computer, but not mobile.

Elevator7009 ,

In my experience Reddit had to be used with an app if not on desktop, but the Fediverse on mobile feels like the Reddit app (I'm one of the few people who never had trouble with the official app, it was functional for me, so this is not meant as an insult at all. I left and came here over the API stuff only) so I have no need to switch. Much more mobile-friendly. Using the Fediverse on desktop feels a lot like the mobile experience but wider.

TisI ,

Ok, let’s talk about Lemmy specifically. The app I’m currently using (Connect) has so many great features like swipe gestures that improve browsing tremendously. Just in this thread, there was a link that I had to use the browser to view that had two images that I needed to zoom in to view and then zoom out to read the other comments. This is something you don’t deal with when using an app because it’s usually optimized for easier viewing.

But at the end of the day, this is about habits and what you feel most comfortable with.

Have you ever tried an app and thought, nah I don’t like it?

Elevator7009 ,

It's happened before in general, though I cannot remember specific instances. As for Fediverse apps, I do have one for Matrix because I think you actually cannot use that on mobile without an app. Every time I try to open a Matrix link on mobile it tells me to pick an app. For Mbin and Lemmy, I do not need an app because I'm already having a good experience on the browser. Little to no friction or complaints. I also don't feel I need anything more, so I don't want to sink that minimal effort into finding and trying an app. The post that came out talking about a lot of apps not displaying Markdown correctly further discourages me, as I don't want to track it down to find which ones do, and one of the things few apps show correctly is spoiler formatting which I use.

I see it can be about accessibility and solving usability issues on the browser now, which of course will be different for different people. Thanks for discussing with me :)

skullgiver , (edited )
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

Sync for Lemmy is the reason I’m using Lemmy over mbin right now. The *bin experience isn’t bad per se, but native apps just feel a lot nicer to use on mobile.

I don’t use any apps on desktop, mostly because there aren’t any that look and feel as smooth and complete as the Android apps do.

Also, I feel a bit hesitant as quite a lot of the smap I see seems to come in from *bin servers. Could be moderator actions not federating well? I just need to know for sure that there aren’t any spam scripts I need to start evading after a switch.

I did try out kbin very quick a year ago but the difference in CPU usage for basic federation and browsing was quite large. With Lemmy now consistently using 15% of a CPU core on federation, I dread to think what *bin would do to my poor CPU.

Lastly, I’ve heard some pretty bad experiences about *bin and database issues from people who run both services. Dunno if that’s been cleared out yet, but if I ever switch over, I’m going to need to make sure that’s been fixed.

jerry ,

I was probably the most prominent person who runs both and had database issues with k/mbin. I am happy to say that those are well behind me, largely because of the skill and patience of the Mbin team helping me resolve them.

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

That’s great to hear! With likely technical issues out of the way, all that stands in my way now is picking a weekend to set up mbin properly.

Just out of curiosity, what’s mbin’s performance like these days?

jerry ,

Mbin performs quite well. I just applied the most recent update which removed mercure and it’s very fast now.

Blaze ,

Nice

FundMECFSResearch ,

Do you have downvotes disabled?

BentiGorlich ,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

Nope. That is not yet possible on mbin. Dislikes are received but not sended. I was holding back on implementing sending dislikes because that can't be configured yet.

FundMECFSResearch ,

If there are instances with downvoted disabled in the future, I’ll consider switching.

I find people are way too easy to downvote on lemmy so I think it’s nice to be on an instance where it is disabled.

BentiGorlich ,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

It is in the works :)

Fitik ,
@Fitik@fedia.io avatar

@FundMECFSResearch It's already a feature request on GitHub, you can put thumbs up under it here

https://github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues/482

@xnx @BentiGorlich

Elevator7009 ,

Not sent to other instances? I am on Mbin and see downvotes.

BentiGorlich ,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

Yes you see the down votes from othwr instances, but these other instances cannot see your downvotes

Elevator7009 ,

Thank you for explaining!

BentiGorlich ,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

Sure thing 😇

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

I know that I shouldn’t, but…

Off-topic: why Nutomic's comment is idioticIt’s a big false dichotomy. As a class, the bourgeoisie only cares about staying in power. Everything else from its PoV is fluff, to be situationally used or opposed. And that applies to the trans cause. The bourgeoisie is weakly opposed to trans rights because they get in the way of reproductive labour (trans people are less likely to have children, so they aren’t pumping out as many new proletariats as cis people do). However that opposition is not strong enough to make the bourgeoisie ignore pink money, since pink money is still money and money is still power under capitalism. It’s also worth noting that the bourgeoisie doesn’t just compete for power with the other two classes (proletariat and petit-bourgeoisie) - it also competes internally. And for that, different factions within the class will seek external support from different groups, and align their discourses to those. In that situation, what do you expect to see? The bourgeoisie flinging back and forth between lip service towards LGBTQ+ people+communities, and a transphobic discourse. Rainbow-wash something today (it’s a cheap and effective marketing tactic!), go transphobic tomorrow; business A plops up a trans flag, business B tears it down. Flush, repeat. And, well, it’s exactly what you see here. I also encourage specifically Trotskyists to read this text, as it explains way better than I could how the transgender agenda and class struggle are not orthogonal in nature. (Stalinists: be warned that Sybil Davis rambles quite a bit against Stalinism.) And… on a moral level, let’s be frank - you need to be inconsistent like a puddle of jelly, to be a communist but not defend trans rights. At the end of the day, what a good communist should defend is freedom of oppression; and what are those LGBTQ+ activists saying, if not “we don’t want to be oppressed based on gender, sex and sexuality”? It’s all about human rights dammit.

On-topic: I think that the “forums side of the Fediverse” (nowadays mostly Lemmy and Kbin/Mbin) would benefit immensely from additional platforms; that’s why I’m excited for projects like PieFed and SubLinks. I am grateful for the Lemmy software but I can’t help but see the people in charge of the project as a liability.

And they would still be a liability even if they had any skill building a healthy community (they don’t, they suck at it). Relying on a single platform is like putting all your eggs within the same basket, once that basket goes down everything breaks.

kshade ,
@kshade@lemmy.world avatar

It’s also worth noting that the bourgeoisie doesn’t just compete for power with the other two classes (proletariat and petit-bourgeoisie) - it also competes internally. And for that, different factions within the class will seek external support from different groups, and align their discourses to those.

And if someone were to ignore that and view them as a single-minded monolith it can easily be explained as divide & conquer tactics.

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

This too - even monolithic agents can play both sides, or do lip service for one side while supporting the other from the shadows.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

And they would still be a liability even if they had any skill building a healthy community (they don’t, they suck at it).

I agree with you here (and generally the whole post, glad to have found it here). While I think they do suck at community building (and might even admit to as much or defend the need for it) I would add that from my perspective the amount of reflexive dog-piling and harsh criticism hurled their way just for or triggered by their being communists/tankies has probably made it pretty difficult. And unfortunately and problematically so I’d say. Now such may just be the way things are and it had to be navigated if they were ever to build a better community … sure. And being open communists may then as just a matter of practical reality hinder their community building capacities. But I feel like it’s worth acknowledging.

Also, their position of opposing a somewhat consumeristic culture of having a demanding relationship with open source developers is also worth recognising. I wasn’t receptive to those arguments in the past, but have since come around to it TBH.

And, the way they’ve approached federation and presenting their own instance has enabled the lemmy-verse to not have a single monolithic community or culture. They chose before the migration to not push their instance as the flagship and never seemed to want that. They always promoted other instances, and have always federated their own instance fairly widely. So in a way, they’ve ensured that they didn’t have to be the primary community builders for the lemmy space, and I think that has paid off rather well given the relatively small user size here (apart from lemmy . world being too big).

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

I don’t rule out that a lot of the complains are motivated by red scare, instead of saner stuff. And I’m also genuinely grateful for not making ml the flagship instance, it would’ve made any problem worse.

However I think that, to be a good open source developer, you need to be at least decent at community building. Because a good part of that development is to gather support so other people can submit you code.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Because a good part of that development is to gather support so other people can submit you code.

Yes, for sure … totally agree. I think I saw desalines even acknowledging that they’ve dropped the ball on this somewhat. TBH, from their perspective, I imagine it’s hard to see through the red scare stuff though.

That it’s rust also creates a barrier to entry (I actually started a community for learning rust to help with this and it’s gone ok so far).

But yea, I think they could do with a community manager of some sort. Nutomic in particular seems to have difficulty with engaging with the user base (this post’s source included).

j4k3 ,
@j4k3@lemmy.world avatar

This is the best stated argument I’ve seen by far for alts for Lemmy. Still, I don’t see anything wrong with the statements made being neutral. Not everyone is going to be an ally, but that does not make them an enemy. This post smells like someone trying very poorly thought out psyops instead of simply making their own thing. Lemmy is written in the benchmark of coding languages. The alts appear to target the least secure convenient high level languages. Based on what I’ve seen, I would be quite hesitant to run my own instance on one versus the other. I’ve seen a ton of whining here and there, but I haven’t seen anyone that has an answer to why they have not submitted pull requests for Lemmy. I find that most concerning. There appears to be a desire to steal Lemmy. I find that deeply disturbing. I left for awhile once before because of similar nonsense. If some one can do better, great, go prove it on your own. If your confidence in your abilities does not exceed envy of what already exists, I already feel completely uninterested in the alternative. There is a lot of nonsense about politics that ultimately have nothing to do with the platform. It feels like deeply destabilizing drama that makes this place toxic.

There is still thinly plausible deniability about the psyops nature of this post, but it is too strong of a pattern for me to ignore as chance. The original message chain was not posted. One side of a conversation proves nothing whatsoever and making conclusions about intent without full context is a fool’s folly. The consistent jump to Lemmy alts in comments shows a decided intent and bias.

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

For context, here’s the original message chain. The discourse conveyed there isn’t just neutral, it’s dismissive - in that chain Nutomic does play down the trans issues and needs.

While we could argue that the original user is jumping at the gun to some extent (and falling into the same idiotic false dichotomy as Nutomic himself), it’s hard to claim that she’s psy ops, after a quick glance of her profile. She simply sounds vocal about the issues that she cares about. I think that it’s the same deal with the OP of this thread, it doesn’t look like psy ops for me.

I ain’t no programmer, so take what I say with a grain of salt: while performance is important I don’t think that it’s the whole deal. One of the benefits of Python is that a lot of people know it, can read its code for issues, and can contribute with the project. (This is not a dichotomy, though - I think that an alternative coded mostly in Python, with Rust on critical parts [to address performance and security] would be the best of all worlds.)

But even another codebase in Rust would do great in my book. Besides the whole deal of relying too much onto a a single basket, every new alternative would bring on new ideas, and try to tackle the same problems in different ways. Kbin for example tried to mix microblogging in. And oddly enough it would be a great way to shut up all those “waah devz r commiez!” complains (“ah, you don’t use software made for commies? Use [alternative] then.”), while still allowing them to reap the benefits through federation and open source.

onlinepersona ,

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f348bddbc249a4ca4fc13dc2ed27bf39/tenor.gif?itemid=5314701

So many things I’d have to look up to understand what’s going on and why this is supposedly transphobic.

What bothers me more is private discussions being aired publicly.

Anti Commercial-AI license

colforge ,

“Aww we can’t say hateful things in DMs without worrying about it still getting out.” 😭😭😭😭

onlinepersona ,

If you don’t believe in privacy, then I don’t think we have anything to talk about.

Anti Commercial-AI license

colforge ,

If you don’t understand that anyone you have a conversation with can and will tell other people then I don’t know how you tie your shoes.

Quill7513 ,

Privacy isn’t the right to say anything digitally to anyone without consequence. Privacy is the right that it has to be someone involved in the situation who discloses conversations and not a third party. But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that someone who thinks attaching a link to the creative commons license to all their comments does anything to stop an AI from digesting their comments wouldn’t understand what the fight for digital privacy represents

onlinepersona ,

Nothing of what you said even matches the definition of privacy. Good job on getting that wrong and not understanding anything about licenses nor computing 👏

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9BAkE1PIxPk/maxresdefault.jpg

Anti Commercial-AI license

Taleya ,

A participant in the conversation chose to share, so your entire argument is bullshit

onlinepersona ,

OK, so you’d be fine with everything you said in private being recorded and then shared with the world? Are you confident you’ve never said anything that’s offensive to anybody? You don’t harbor any opinions you’d only share in private? No information you’d rather keep private? “As long as a participant in the conversation shared it, it’s fair game”, right?

Anti Commercial-AI license

Taleya ,

False equivalence.

No one’s posting everything that everyone’s said. And if i had an opinion i wanted kept private i’d keep it fucking private

He chose to express a contentious, offensive opinion to another party… in a written form on a electronic medium - THE single most insecure easily shared thing imaginable. And not only that, from the looks of it did so when it wasn’t even within the topic of conversation. Don’t act fucking shocked pikachu when that shit leaks out

dramaticcat ,

Anti Commercial-AI license

Oof yikes you’re a evil transphone. Scraping your profile to train it into a large LLM btw

onlinepersona ,

I say “privacy matters” and that makes me “a [sik] evil transphone [sik]”. This is why people don’t take you seriously. “You’re either with us or you’re against us”. Tribal thinking, just like the MAGA crowd.

Anti Commercial-AI license

Elevator7009 ,

Happy with my current instance, but the urge to try out PieFed grows… would probably mean abandoning Mbin though and Mbin is already so tiny compared to Lemmy…

Blaze ,

Aren’t the communities more important than the platform, as you can access the communities whatever platform you use?

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

I think this could and should be true. But enough people scroll All that a more community focused dynamic does get dissolved. At least so I fear.

That being said, I feel like all threadiverse platforms could go further in enabling communities to be more well defined spaces.

The private and local only communities features coming from lemmy go toward that I think. But other things like multi communities, wikis, chat, more specific reminders and perhaps visibility options for each post could help too.

Elevator7009 ,

My concern is because regardless of what communities I can access, Mbin is so tiny compared to Lemmy that I feel a bit bad abandoning the less-used Fediverse platform. One less not-Lemmy user, even if I still prop up the same communities with my activities. Well, I'd still be a not-Lemmy user, but I guess one less Mbin user, which I feel could use all the help it can get.

Blaze ,

I see what you mean.

I would happily jump from Lemmy to Mbin or Piefed, but I’m missing one key feature that I rely on to browse: “New comments” filter.

This thread has allowed me to ask about those on both sides, so hopefully it will come!

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