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Dax0Lotl ,
@Dax0Lotl@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Petition to make mastodon.social and .online defederate from meta

change.org/defederatemeta

APassenger ,

I see this going only a few directions:

  • Threads tries and fails
  • Threads succeeds, flexes, annexes
  • Equilibrium, and Mastodon/Lemmy become the social network APIs that connect across (like I wish we’d had when G+ was a thing)
pinkdrunkenelephants ,

And of course .world is doing exactly what I expected it to do: it’s going along with Threads integration.

And judging from how it’s been set up and run to function almost exactly like old Reddit, with corporate censoring, PR-style talk from admins, blatant refusal to address and fix serious problems, and monopolizing Lemmy by herding everyone else under its umbrella instead of letting people migrate to niche servers which was the intent of the fediverse in the first place, it stands to reason the .world admins are either working directly for Threads or being paid off by Meta to do this.

It’s time for everyone to just leave and go back to making their own websites again.

jol ,

bring paid off by Meta

If you think Meta cares the least about some little forum with some thousands of users, you are delusional.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Shill harder, and tell me how to get in on that racket. How much is the employee health insurance?

jol ,

I not even shilling. I have no interest in Threads whatsoever. But you guys are totally delusional.

Mereo ,

That is the beauty of the Fediverse. If you don’t like how an instance is run, you can easily switch to another instance in Lemmy 0.19. We need to think of Lemmy instances as countries with their own laws, culture, and policies. So in my opinion, if you don’t like how an instance is run, you can easily switch to another instance.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Except you can’t, because this is not a technical problem, it’s a political problem everybody is deliberately ignoring because they know it is real and they know of the extremely negative implications of them.

The vast majority of Lemmy traffic is from .world. No matter what instance you’re on, most activities happen from .world and .world content floods the feeds of all the others.

.world insists on federating with Meta.

Therefore NO instance is safe, because you’ll always be forced to deal with it indirectly.

That is the insidiousness of .world I tried to warn you all about.

I fucking told you all .world was monopolizing Lemmy and that it was doing it in a way that it implemented the same kind of soft censorship, favoritism and authoritarianism Reddit imposed on its users, and it was herding everyone toward it in the same way old social media did to users in the 10’s.

And did a single one of you listen to me? Noooooo. You were too busy getting mad that your investment in a new website was being deconstructed and that you were being burdened with the mental labor of investing yourselves somewhere else.

This is happening 100% because you are all the most spoiled, entitled, selfish, lazy dumbasses history has ever seen, and you deserve every ounce of suffering Meta is going to impose on you and the fediverse as a result.

You’ve been warned

mac ,
@mac@programming.dev avatar

Instances that defederate with threads wont see content from threads even on other instances that may federate with them.

As an example here lemmy.ml federates with hexbear and world but hexbear and world dont federate with each other. On lemmy.ml posts world users cant see any comments made from people on hexbear and vice versa

So they wont have to deal with them indirectly

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

The fact that this guy’s only rebuttal is “well, just go to tankie instances” is all you need to know.

mac , (edited )
@mac@programming.dev avatar

Didnt say to go anywhere, just said that people on .world cant see content from hexbear on lemmy.ml posts shown by those comment counts above even though lemmy.ml federates with hexbear. (hexbear used since its the best example of a large blocked instance that can showcase this well. Could have also used .world, .ml and beehaw and same point stands)

Same logic would apply to .world federating with threads. People on lemmy.dbzer0 for example wont see content from threads on .world posts or communities even if .world federates with threads

Just wanted to put a counterpoint to you saying people would need to deal with it indirectly which isnt true proven by the above. You dont need to strawman it by making it a different point

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

Since you’re obviously one of the shills arguing in bad faith about it, know that you can’t manipulate everyone into accepting corporate fists up their assholes. We will stop you one way or another.

AI_toothbrush ,

My wish is that we could maybe turn this against facebook(mEtA) and actually get threads users to use other instances. Maybe its possible idk i hope so.

Yoz ,

Threads users are basically boomers. They wouldn’t understand federation and instances.

AngryCommieKender ,

Make it as easy, or preferably easier, to sign up for other instances as it is the threads instance. If we can clear that hurdle, we’d have a chance at getting many of them.

Snapz ,

This is growth for the sake if it? “Chance we getting many of them”?

No outside and lick some public benches, you’ll have a great chance of getting splinters in your tongue and many of them diseases! Go! you need more! Go!

Yoz ,

True but You do realize that the whole things is community based unlike Facebook that has trillion dollar at their disposal. Guys like you and me use the free stuff and give advice on reddit and Lemmy but in real life we can’t even write a single line of code. Lol

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

adam posted more details tonight :) can’t wait honestly. i love how pumped adam is about activitypub and interoperability!

www.threads.net/

dumpsterlid , (edited )

Everyone advocating for federating with threads keeps making technical arguments for why meta supposedly can’t extend, embrace, extinguish the fediverse as if this was a phenomena of technology. I am sorry, I know you love technology, programming and computers but this has nothing to do with those things.

This process is a phenomena of power and politics, and nothing about the fediverse makes it uniquely impervious to it, if anything a loosely organized federation is UNIQUELY vulnerable to a powerful, organized political actor. Meta can easily distort the entire landscape we are operating in with the amount of money it has at its disposal. Exhibit A: see how Google idly fucks with Firefox by getting it to run around in circles the way you might idly taunt your friends cat with a laser pointer. The only defense we really have is learning from history and a lot of yall seem pretty incapable of that when you stick your fingers in your ears and repeatedly say “lets just wait and see what the face eating leopards do!”.

HATEFISH ,

Exhibit A: see how Google idly fucks with Firefox by getting it to run around in circles the way you might idly taunt your friends cat with a laser pointer

What is this referring to?

rikudou ,

I don’t know if they had some specific thing on their mind, but generally Firefox pretty much needs to do whatever Google wants with the web standards, because Firefox is close to becoming irrelevant (which is a damn shame, I’ve been using that browser for forever).

anonymoose ,
@anonymoose@lemmy.ca avatar

Also, Google is a (the?) major source of funding for Mozilla, so they have a lot of clout with them.

27myths ,

Probably talking about how there was code found in YouTube that makes playing videos slower on Firefox. It was supposedly a bug but I believe this happened recently along with Google declaring war on ad blockers. So obviously a lot of people believe it wasn’t just a bug.

tgxn ,
@tgxn@lemmy.tgxn.net avatar

The code specifically looked for “Firefox” in your UA and started a 5 second wait timer. There’s no way it was a bug, you don’t just add idle waits into your website.

worldsayshi ,

I mean I’ve seen some weird workarounds when stuff isn’t loading in when they’re supposed to…

But yeah this is probably not that.

nave ,

How exactly? Let’s say they follow the EEE strategy and eventually drop support for ActivityPub. Then it’s exactly the same as it is now. People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit. The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.

sir_reginald ,
@sir_reginald@lemmy.world avatar

People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger.

Do you realise how hypocritical this is? Using the fediverse is effectively using XMPP in this analogy.

Just compare the 100 million users of Threads vs the 1.5 million MAU of the fediverse.

Threads is the corporate-backed proprietary service (Google talk) and the fediverse is the small network of federated servers hosted mainly by volunteers (XMPP).

By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit.

By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?

The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.

XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.

nave ,

By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?

Because the majority of XMPP users were Google Talk and Facebook Messenger users. Fediverse users are explicitly using the Fediverse.

XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.

Aren’t you agreeing with me here? Thats my point effectively nothing changes if Facebook drops ActivityPub.

kernelle ,

Wait and see is not ignoring anything though, and have not read a single argument against it. Defederation can happen at any time for any reason in the future, why would you preemptively exclude a potential for ActivityPub to get major recognition?

I’m not excluding the possibility an EEE attempt, and meta’s track record definitely shows they will try. But people using ActivityPub right now won’t stop because a company forked it into their own standard, we are here specifically for the exact opposite. Meta literally has zero influence on any of us, if anything it’s the exact opposite.

Also “learning from history” is a weak argument, every server admin as the possibility to defederate at any moment. When even the slightest misstep is placed, everyone defederates and Meta will live in their own little federated world, boo fucking hoo.

haui_lemmy ,

Here you have some arguments then:

Federating with a 10x larger entity that has a ton of very well known names on their list is going to dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer. I‘m not saying in quality but definitely in quantity.

The argument is sound because its the exact same that happens with heroin. Your brain gets flooded with dopamine, you feel as happy as you have never felt in your life and likely will never feel again. The withdrawal symptoms are reported to be cruel. The reason is that „healthy“ amounts of dopamine just dont cut it anymore.

The same happens to people quitting big corpo „social“ media. I felt it and I have read of dozens who felt it as well (Obviously not as hard as heroin but the same mechanic). Now I‘m off the proverbial needle and meta federating is just going to bring us back to old habits. Endless, partly divisive content, potential for pushing ads with the posts and using our reactions for profiling.

Like the frog in the kettle we wont get dystopia tomorrow but like disney pushing their prices 50%, we get it eventually, bit by bit.

If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.

Also, we’ve had this discussion with covid, with climate change, with lgbtq rights, abortion… can we maybe start seeing the pattern here? Its always „not that bad“ while some are abusing and exploiting others and those who call it out have the „woke virus“ and are called fearmongers.

Fearmongering is if the media or the government does it, not people who are actually there using the stuff and suffering under things. That is called asking others for help/to understand.

kernelle ,

dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer

You curate your own feed, if you don’t like seeing posts from that instance, then block it yourself. Like with NSFW instances, I don’t see any in my feed, don’t like them? Block them. For new users there will be instances who have defederated and those who have not. Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem? Advocating for every instance to defederate preemptively is more than counter productive, it’s the very definition of fear mongering.

So no, your argument does not hold up.

If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.

Then we will defederate, people wanting that algorithmic dopamine hit are already getting it, and people in virtual rehab will know to block anything they want.

There is still no argument against the wait and see approach.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

There are plenty of arguments. You’re just not listening because you’re likely just some dumb shill getting paid to astroturf for Threads like you assholes always do whenever corporations need your help convincing stupid people online corporate interests are what the majority wants.

kernelle ,

Then go ahead, argue, I’m trying to have a civil conversation.

I host my own server to get away from monopolies, I actively support the development of lemmy and ActivityPub, what do you do exactly but detract credibility from your peers do have genuine concerns.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

I ignore dumbasses like you and carry on with my life, knowing I can convince everyone else not to listen to you. Ignoring obvious astroturfing is an easy sell.

kernelle ,

I ignore dumbasses like you and carry on with my life

Clearly you are not, also having a civil discussion with people who don’t share your point of view is an important life skill, try it out sometime.

So what exactly do you do for this platform except from spreading hate and intolerance?

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Yes I am. Here, watch. Blocked.

haui_lemmy ,

Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem?

The same reason our taxes pay for mental health clinics, addiction therapies, methadone clinics and so on…

Because it is the right thing to do.

and secondly, because its not my problem. I‘m just aware of it. This article explains it well. There is a study about it but I can’t find it rn. marketplace.org/…/new-research-quantifies-why-you…

kernelle ,

If you really want to compare social media to drug use, how does the need for decriminalisation fit into this? Don’t limit what people can or can’t do because you fear the outcome. Let everyone (ie users and admins) decide for themselves which platforms they want to see, and give them the tools to do so.

haui_lemmy ,

You probably see that you changed gears now, right?

I answered your question. That is why you should care and not jump on the bandwagon.

Just for completeness: i never said its completely the same. I said (and have proof) that social media can be and very often is addictive and keeping a profiting company out isnt keeping the drugs from people. Its cutting the dealer out. Basically the same as legalization if you will.

kernelle ,

I agree with the premise that Meta is a horrible company and we pay close attention on how its federation progresses. I still have not seen a single argument that holds any weight, from you as well, against the wait and see approach.

“Because it’s the right thing to do” is not an argument, it’s a statement without anything to back you up. What is right is subjective to everyone.

Also, I have not changed gears, and still firmly believe there’s a lot to be gained. Any concerns you have, I already answered. Anyone has a place in the fediverse, because its core principle is exactly that. Don’t agree? Then block the fucking instance.

haui_lemmy ,

I have to agree with the other commenter now who said you’re likely astroturfing. That or you have significant issues with empathy because the amount of dismissal you show towards other peoples concerns is staggering. Its obvious also from the lack of counterarguments you bring that no amount of sources, evidence or discussion would make you consider an alternative.

I would pity you but I cant say if you’re not actually paid for what you do so I will just end this conversation now. At least other people are not only hearing your crooked perspective but also some sound arguments.

kernelle ,

Lmao, I addressed everything you said, have not dismissed anything and countered every single one of your arguments and when you can’t respond anymore you start with namecalling. Maybe don’t pick fights you’re not prepared for.

haui_lemmy ,

You responded with „thats not an argument“ or „i refuted your argument“ without anything to refute it with, just your opinion.

I‘m choosing to withdraw since you dont know how to debate. No point discussing with someone who doesn’t listen.

Edit: read my text. I‘m not namecalling you. I accuse you of having strong issues with empathy since you dismiss other people‘s problems so easily. You‘re not even able to refute that accurately.

kernelle ,

So I tell you to block the instance, or join an instance that has defederated with meta, and you would have literally zero impact of any of what you said, did you reply to that? No.

So I follow your addiction rethoric and give you a real life example which contradicts that exact rethoric, did you reply to that? No.

I have the same concerns as you, express them but have a different approach, did you reply to that? No.

So now I’ll tell you this, instead of projecting, pulling up a strawman and overall passive aggressiveness, do realise we’re on the same team, we all want what is best for the federation. But the great thing about the federation is anyone can choose what they see, literally. For all I know federation with meta turns out to be a giant shit show, for all you know it turns into what could be the best thing for ActivityPub, more users, more publicity, more platforms joining in. I am open to being wrong, but are you?

Edit: Why not wait and see.

haui_lemmy ,

I do appreciate that you elaborate in your thoughts and opinions, I really do.

While that is true, I usually try to avoid biases. That is why I believe science, not people. I proved my opinion that social media has addictive qualities. The example you brought is not proof. That is why I didn’t think to refute it but felt like you were not being serious.

I accept that you probably want the fediverse to succeed but we have very different approaches to achieving that.

I can prove that the fediverse is growing organically. I can prove that aggressive growth is going to be very bad despite it being the current trend in business. I can prove that the fediverse is democratic and that meta is autocratic, and so on and so forth.

We are using different approached and have not been talking to each other but to ourselves, I‘d say.

If you‘re interested in a more open discussion, feel free to bring proof of your theories and we can discuss them.

kernelle ,

I feel like we’re having an actual discussion now. However, you go on about proving everything, while making unsupported claims yourself, don’t you think that’s a bit hypocritical? Ah wait, I’ll give you some examples.

Federating with a 10x larger entity that has a ton of very well known names on their list is going to dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer. I‘m not saying in quality but definitely in quantity.

Claim 1: no proof this will happen, each instance can decide the degree of federation, no amount of users can dwarf an instance they cannot federate with. Blocking the instance yourself will exclude yourself from any of Meta’s shenanigans immediately.

If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instance

Claim 2: meta cannot limit the capabilities of the fediverse, if they change what ActivityPub stands for, we will fork ActivityPub into what it’s supposed to be, having our federation sans meta like we have now.

thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.

Claim 3: Obsolete platforms have no way of defeating obsolescence, here’s a paper on why dead internet platforms cannot be revived. There will ALWAYS be algorithmic, profit driven, centralised platforms, why would meta choosing to defederate lead to a mass exodus of lemmy when people who want that are already getting their fix? If anything, it could lead to more people joining lemmy instead. The point is we don’t know. Also, making a statement like this is textbook fearmongering, which leads me to my next point.

Fearmongering is if the media or the government does it, not people who are actually there using the stuff and suffering under things. That is called asking others for help/to understand.

Claim 4: Fearmongering - the action of intentionally trying to make people afraid of something when this is not necessary or reasonable. source

It is not reasonable to deny everyone the federation of meta because you fear a mass exodus back to facebook, according to my previous source people will find their algorithmic fix elsewhere, but rarely the same platform.

Because it is the right thing to do.

Claim 5: “the right thing to do” still does not mean anything: for ukraine the right thing to do is for russia to give back their land. If you’re russia the right thing to do is for ukraine to give back their land. You see how this statement holds no value at all?

“social media is a drug”

Claim 6: I agree with this one, so here are your sources why decriminalisation, ie not punishing users of them, but providing them the resources and tools to help them, is the way to go. Not one, but two sources backing that up.

Denying people the option of a federated meta instance will cause less people to switch over, period. Having a place where people can still access the other platform, without actually being on said platform will drastically increase the userbase.

Don’t take my word for it, just listen to the lemmy devs:

In practical terms: Imagine if you could follow a Facebook group from your Reddit account and comment on its posts without leaving your account. If Facebook and Reddit were federated services that used the same protocol, that would be possible. With a Lemmy account, you can communicate with any other compatible instance, even if it is not running on Lemmy. All that is necessary is that the software support the same subset of the ActivityPub protocol.

Unlike proprietary services, anyone has the complete freedom to run, examine, inspect, copy, modify, distribute, and reuse the Lemmy source code. Just like how users of Lemmy can choose their service provider, you as an individual are free to contribute features to Lemmy or publish a modified version of Lemmy that includes different features. These modified versions, also known as software forks, are required to also uphold the same freedoms as the original Lemmy project. Because Lemmy is libre software that respects your freedom, personalizations are not only allowed but encouraged.

source

So, from the 6 claims I listed, only one can be sourced.

haui_lemmy ,

Listen, I would really like to go through all this with a fine comb but the things you are saying just dont make sense to me. It is not disprovable that threads is 10x the size of the whole fediverse (larger by its inflated user numbers) and it is not a stretch to say they have much more content. I‘m sorry if you thought I was ready to discuss basic math.

Asking me to prove that eee is real and a real threat is not something I‘m gonna do. I don’t know what you‘re hoping to accomplish by this. You‘ll probably say I couldn’t but I referenced and linked relevant things like the article about the addictive qualities of social media and the downfall of the xmpp protocol. There even is a freaking wikipedia article about eee.

I cant help you if we cant agree on some basic principles

  • it has been proven that large companies act like psychopaths
  • we have something called greedflation
  • saying we need rules does not mean censorship
  • meta has a terrible track record of violations against moral and lawful principles
  • the leopards eating faces situation isn’t new, it has been for nearly a decade

I‘m not able to continue this discussion as I feel like I‘m explaining things to a smart but inexperienced and extremely overconfident person which makes it excruciating to do.

The thing is, you‘ll always be able to wind out by some technicality and I would be working your posts 9to5 to disprove it all. If you were interested in gaining insight you‘d probably done so by now.

Good luck.

kernelle ,
  • I never once denied the size of threads vs lemmy
  • I never once doubted eee or asked you to prove it, I linked the wiki to another user in this thread
  • I agree with every single one of your points
  • You asked me to support my claims with sources, which I did

You are not able to continue the discussion because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Fuck you for wasting my time

haui_lemmy ,

There is your lack of basic decency from the beginning again. I learned a lot through the interaction with you.

Having been raised by narcissists, I often fawn if they start out brutal and become more tolerable, out of some misguided sense of hope. My own broken head I guess.

But I got that feeling talking to you when you started actually talking instead of just insulting me. I had to think about it again to actually find out the reason.

You literally need help.

kernelle ,

What’s wrong with you? Ignoring everything I say, getting yourself in a discussion you clearly know very little about, just regurgitating no original thoughts whatsoever. Garden variety psychologist, go back to reddit.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

You forgot profit.

If Meta/threads sees a way to cram ads into their instance(s), they will. If they offer money to others to put ads on their instances, they will. If they make rules or other demands of those making money - like no defederating from Meta/Threads, or requiring federating with other corporate instances, they will. On top of that, you’re going to get people drawn into the fediverse, like influencers, political spammers, more bots, and anyone else that follows that type of social media. Coders will start writing corporate-friendly instance code that will allow individuals (like influencers) to spin up profitable instances quickly that tie right into the corporateverse.

EEE will happen. We can argue about defederating from these corporate instances, but it’s going to be a running retreat.

Maybe hyperbolic. Maybe not. If, of course, if meta/threads finds the fediverse profitable.

haui_lemmy ,

I really enjoyed reading this although it is quite dystopian. Very well put. Thank you.

You know that someone with the ability to write like this could always write to the guy who founded mastodon for example (who apparently is on the hype train himself, who knows, maybe he has been paid already. But I got no evidence).

I‘m actually suspecting a lot of the „wait & see“ peeps to be paid actors or „true believers“ that already have a threads account and are working for the takeover.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

I’m pretty cynical. I’m a huge sci-fi fan, and enjoy everything from Star Trek, to The Expanse, to William Gibson’s novels. P K Dick, too.

You want to know which futuristic reality they projected is the one in the lead? I can tell you it’s not the gleaming white space stations with hundreds of thousands of humans peacefully engaged in furthering knowledge and exploration.

Nope.

It’s the despotic corporatocracy with the token ineffective government winning. The corporations rule all. Ever read Jennifer Government? Yeah, we’re headed for Gibson’s Sprawl and disparity in a hurry…well, if Climate Change doesn’t get us all first.

haui_lemmy ,

I feel like I would like to read those but 1984 already made me wanna puke so I might have to pass.

Still, I very much get what you mean.

kernelle ,

So then explain to me, how exactly does this impact you? What about you block the meta instance yourself? You will not see any threads content and will continue to use lemmy/ActivityPub in literally the exact same way.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

If corporations get their hooks into the fediverse it will be like putting out fires. Plenty of people out there willing to sacrifice what the fediverse is for a few bucks. I don’t want Threads/Meta to even get a toehold, that shit’s poison.

kernelle ,

Do you know how federation works? Because if you did you’d know that ‘corportions get their hooks into the fediverse’ does not mean anything. Defederation and forking of the source code is a click away, the reason lemmy exists is to move away from corporations. Contradicting that would just spawn a new lemmy federation.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Did you read what I wrote? Are you just being stubborn about human nature? Don’t insult me by implying I don’t understand this stuff at least at the surface level. All I’m painting is a potential future, and that future is depended on corporations finding the fediverse worth the effort. If they don’t, NBD. If they do, I can assure you they will grind away at what the fediverse is until it’s shaped like what they want, federation be damned. Like I said, maybe you can carve out a corpo-free area, but that depends on the instance operators wanting to put out the effort and money while corps are potentially waving cash in their direction. Humans are shortsighted and greedy.

kernelle , (edited )

Corporations will try ofcourse that’s what they do, but denying meta federation from the getgo goes against the philosophy of federation. The points you’re making NEED to be made, we NEED to observe how meta handles it and how all services are affected. We can decide from there whether your doom scenario holds any merrit whatsoever.

AngryCommieKender ,

What is EEE? Google insists it’s either an expression or glee, or Electrical and Electronics Engineering.

kernelle ,

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, is a strategy tech companies (and a lot more outside of tech as well) have used to use existing open standard and over time slowly add, adapt and finally take over those standards.

It’s a genuine concern this might happen to ActivityPub and Lemmy by extension by Meta, who is integrating ActivityPub as we speak.

AngryCommieKender ,

Thanks for the explanation. I can see how this could be a concern, especially with the historical actions of every tech giant, Facebook included

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

I can’t wait to post the c/leopardsatemyface threads about all of these hopeless retards who refused to listen to me and even attacked me when I told them the same thing months ago, and then laugh at them when I bounce

No collective action is possible because everyone else is too stupid, immature, arrogant and entitled to humble themselves enough to listen and do what is right.

It’s time for those of us who have noticed the serious problems with federation to build a new platform and move on. Or just build our own separate websites with forums again.

dumpsterlid ,

Not really vibing with calling people retards bruh.

I understand being upset and wanting it all to burn down but this is the best chance we have.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Not really vibing with you complaining about something minor and petty to give yourself an out from admitting you are doing something egregiously wrong. Bruh.

You’re the one who’s going to suffer by not listening to me. You claim to hold the world to high standards when you refuse to even follow them yourself, instead choosing the convenience of having a website to use rather than being better than that and building something better. And then you have the nerve to pretend to be offended over something.

Grow the fuck up. The fediverse obviously isn’t working and is falling victim to the censorship and regulatory capture you claim to oppose, so it’s time for you to either move on or accept that you’re okay with corporations infecting everything you build so you don’t have to keep expending precious mental energy you’d rather waste on video games.

dumpsterlid ,

Have fun trying to build the future by yourself! I hope some people walk by in the distance that you can yell at so you can get your rocks off once in awhile :)

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

I won’t have to yell at you. I’ll just laugh at you while you suffer from the aftermath of your poor decision making, complain and blame everyone else instead of looking in a mirror and taking responsibility for your own choices.

Your platform is deeply, fundamentally broken and the only ones who will suffer from it is you if you choose to dig your heels in to save face instead of curbing your own arrogance for five seconds and admitting you have a problem.

dumpsterlid ,

gleefully punches block button

Rentlar ,

I think federation with Meta will improve Mastodon, and doesn’t affect Lemmy too much. Threads users will be able to post to our groups, but the discussion will be mostly within communities on existing servers.

The worry is if the bulk of discussion happens in Meta’s space. Yes, people will feel like they are missing out if they are on a Masto server defederated with Meta, but there is enough activity from people outside of that to be engaging. On the Lemmy side, (hypothetically) if Facebook Groups were to become like Lemmy communities, I’d be very concerned that most of the discussion would move away from places like here on lemmy.world and other cool servers to Meta’s. Then by the time Meta decides to leave or do something stupid then people will not have a place to go to.

Rosco ,

As long as they keep their shitty ads on their side i’m fine with it.

jol ,

I’m really curious how they will approach this. If you can use threads with any other apps, ads free, won’t people just do that?

pelespirit ,
@pelespirit@sh.itjust.works avatar

Right now, if you want to comment on a non-threads user, you have to leave the app. I doubt this will change unless they’ve figured out a way to control the flow.

jol ,

So threads is even worse than any FOSS app?

13617 ,

Yesss omg

Nobody ,

The Eternal September is coming, as it always does.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Me too!

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

he’s not wrong. the migration of the queer community from twitter to threads is great plus i had a great time talking about doctor who over the weekend, it genuinely felt like twitter 2010 again. ive never had that much engagement from mastodon so if federation from threads to mastodon can keep that up, it will be a win win for all users.

vanquesse ,

if a mastodon instance was fine with hosting libsoftiktok it would swiftly be defederated for lack of moderation by a large amount of instances. No questions asked. No debate. Why is this any different? Do the rules somehow not apply when we’re dealing with facebook?

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

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    vanquesse ,

    Indeed. We don’t even need to talk about EEE or past genocide enabling behavior from facebook. The lack of moderation of threads is plenty reason to defederate. My sanity is valuable enough that I won’t see for myself, but it sure seems like “@libsoftiktokofficial” on threads is the “real deal”.

    cupcakezealot ,
    @cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    deleted_by_author

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    vanquesse ,

    You got me to click the link. There is still plenty of transphobic statements on that account, and they’ve been up for 22+ weeks. I very much doubt that nobody has bothered to report those posts, so I’ll assume facebook is fine with a level of transphobia that is enough to make my day worse even by just skimming for 30 sec.

    cupcakezealot ,
    @cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    deleted_by_author

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    vanquesse ,

    And I’m saying that there’s very obvious transphobic statements still visible on the most obvious account to check. If facebook doesn’t even bother properly clean up after libsoftiktok then I have no faith in their moderation of less overt transphobia from nobodies.

    cupcakezealot ,
    @cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    deleted_by_author

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    vanquesse ,

    I need better reasoning than that to continue this conversation.

    Flaky ,
    @Flaky@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

    I wouldn’t mind followers-only federation of Threads. My issue would be that the flow of posts from there (if it reaches the federated timeline anyway) would be a burden for moderation.

    Lemminary ,

    I smell a rat!

    (And it’s not me this time, I showered today!)

    mindgoblin7 ,

    I hope that it doesn’t change the fediverse for the worst. On the one hand there will likely be a lot more willingness for the general populus to dip their toes into the fediverse if meta is adopting it. Lack of fediverse adoption isn’t a technical problem but rather an unwillingness to download another app because it isn’t the hot new thing. I don’t think it will take long for a good chunk of their user base to see that both the threads app and their instance is just objectively a lot worse of an experience than practically anything else you’ll see in the fediverse, and it will shed a lot of light on some really great projects and will almost certainly see a lot of growth in specific areas that the fediverse needs it and there will probably be less of a feeling of “shouting into the void” when you post on mastodon, for instance. but I don’t agree with the decision to allow meta to federate with us.

    A lot of people who argue for meta integrating with the fediverse tend to see this as like, “oooh cringe reddit wojak gatekeeping” And I don’t think any of our userbase is trying to gatekeep the fediverse. Ultimately meta is a disgusting company and for profit mega corporations that take advantage of kids don’t mix with “ordinary people trying to make a good platform for themselves and others because they can, no strings attached” To put simply, good community is a very delicate thing and a relatively small userbase like the fediverse being exposed to this much toxicity and pressure from a multi billion dollar company that has its own ideas for this platform doesn’t seem like something we need to expose ourselves to as a community. Something in particular that bothers me about this (so far, at least) is that meta’s ActivityPub “integration” is unidirectional, so as of now it’s using the fediverse to effectively just advertise their platform. There is nothing in their roadmap that inherently suggests that they are planning to add polydirectional integration, which sounds like a very meta thing to do. Isn’t meta an advertising company ? Aren’t there adds on threads ? If threads catches on then so will brands and more advertisers. Will we have a solution to stop ads from appearing on non threads apps? Food for thought. I think it’s a bad idea to poison this flowering community. And that’s exactly what this decision is, no matter how you look at it.

    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

    jeffhykin , (edited )

    I think we can give facebook/threads the bad end of the bargin IF we have a data protections.

    You know how powerful copy-left was for open source? I think we can do the same for Lemmy servers. We can have users agree (formally) that the data on a particular server cannot be used for training llvm’s advertisements, marketing profiles, etc, and make it legally binding.

    Even if we don’t federate with them, Meta can still harvest the data so we should add these protections regardless. Maybe there is already something like this and I’m just unaware of it.

    If we do add these protections and we ensure that the largest instance (e.g. Lemmy.world) is community controlled, I think it could work well for bringing more content to Lemmy.

    pennomi ,

    Yep, on a public forum like this we lose very little on privacy by federating with them. What we do stand to lose is comment and post quality, but that’s trivial to fix by simply blocking threads on a personal level.

    Masimatutu ,

    What does lemmy.world being the biggest have to do with any of this?

    jeffhykin ,

    As opposed to a facebook-controlled server being the top search result for Lemmy.

    I see why that’s confusing so I edited my comment just now

    Masimatutu ,

    I think this is the wrong take. If we want Lemmy to be truly community-controlled, we need many small servers, as opposed to the current situation of one server controlling half the userbase. Also, which server is Facebook-controlled? Lemmy.world is in the minority by federating with Threads.

    AustralianSimon ,
    @AustralianSimon@lemmy.world avatar

    You can scrape Lemmy instances for training data without even running an instance.

    jeffhykin ,

    Yeah, sorry if I’m not great at communicating. That’s exactly what I’m trying to point out when I said:

    Even if we don’t federate with them, Meta can still harvest the data so we should add these protections regardless.

    AustralianSimon ,
    @AustralianSimon@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s the thing, anything public is fair game. This is why Reddit is ruining their API.

    jeffhykin ,

    It’s not fair game for for-profit bussinesses training LLM’s. That’s part of why Reddit made the move; so that companies would need to pay Reddit for access to the data for legally training models

    AustralianSimon ,
    @AustralianSimon@lemmy.world avatar

    They changed the terms and made the API pay to use for large volumes of use. People using it to train models have already pillaged what they need and you can get the data prior to APIgeddon elsewhere.

    jeffhykin ,

    Sure, but it’s still true that there are legal protections we can add that make it not fair game for Lemmy. At best it would be unfair-game (illegal scraping of Lemmy)

    AustralianSimon ,
    @AustralianSimon@lemmy.world avatar

    A rule for one Lemmy or even the Lemmy app doesn’t mean same rule applies across ActivityPub Federation, if your data federated to my instance, it’s mine too.

    jeffhykin , (edited )

    it can apply across all of them, for example that’s how copy-left works

    AustralianSimon ,
    @AustralianSimon@lemmy.world avatar

    In other words, fair game.

    jeffhykin ,

    What? I’m saying every federated copy must legally must have the usage restrictions. Just cause it’s copied doesn’t mean it can go into a for-profit LLM.

    AustralianSimon ,
    @AustralianSimon@lemmy.world avatar

    There is no licensing in the protocol so anything you put out there is free.

    www.w3.org/TR/2018/REC-activitypub-20180123/

    jeffhykin ,

    If we serve licensed content over ssh or HTTPS it’s still licensed. Protocols don’t change the legal requirements of the data. Warner Bros will still sue if one of their movies is hosted on a server using the activity pub protocol.

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