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lemmy.ml

BorgDrone , to programmerhumor in Programming languages like PHP and JavaScript get a lot of valid criticism, but I feel that we do have to consider the fact that their ease of use got A LOT of people into programming.

Yes, this is the problem with PHP. It gets a lot of people programming who shouldn’t be. I still have nightmares about the PHP code one of my managers at a previous job wrote.

simonced ,

Exactly, programming shouldn’t be easily accessible. Anybody following a tutorial can make a simple page working. And they think they know programming, get hired by people not knowing any better, and here we are, debugging supid shit instead of doing nice things.

digdilem ,

I’ve heard that a lot, but I think it’s an outdated view.

Programming should be easy, or at least easier. That’s a view shared by everyone who writes and contributes to documentation on all languages and also those who develop the languages as well. (With varying success).

Every damned one of us was a shit coder when we started, that’s part of the process - not least amongst us who are self taught. Yet some go on to do great things and be wonderful coders (including yourself, no doubt).

You had a bad experience, fair enough, but it’s a big brush to tar everyone with. I think everyone should be a programmer. If nothing else it teaches them a little how software actually works and that’s a good thing.

BorgDrone ,

I disagree completely. Sure, there is a learning curve and you’re not going to be a great programmer day one, that is what college and junior programmer positions are for. But the idea that programming can be easy is bullshit.

Programming is inherently difficult, and there is no way to reduce this. Read ‘No Silver Bullet’ by Fred Brooks, it’s as true today as when it was written back in 1986. Not everyone should be a programmer, just like not everyone should be a doctor, or a painter, or a formula 1 driver. People have unique talents and the idea that this is something that everyone should be able to do is frankly ridiculous.

digdilem ,

I disagree completely.

Great! It would be a boring world if we all thought alike.

Programming is inherently difficult,

That’s where we differ. I don’t think it is - and I’m not saying that because I think I’m good, it’s because programming is just a different way of thinking - that’s why there’s books like “Zen and the art of computer programming” and “The Tao of programming”. (I haven’t read “No Silver Bullet” but I’ll keep an eye open. I was actually writing code back in 1986 so it might be interesting to compare because I think programming has changed a huge amount in that time)

Not all programming is easy, just as not all of it is hard. The range of this subject is massive, and blanket statements, pro or anti, just don’t cut it when you dig into it.

BorgDrone , (edited )

You can easily find ‘No Silver Bullet’ online worrydream.com/refs/Brooks-NoSilverBullet.pdf

He basically splits the complexity of programming into two categories: accidental complexity and essential complexity. The accidental complexity you can fix, it’s the difficulty caused by tooling, programming languages, etc. The essential complexity, that is: the complexity caused by the problem your program is trying to solve, cannot be fixed. To quote the man:

The essence of a software entity is a construct of interlocking concepts: data sets, relationships among data items, algorithms, and invocations of functions. This essence is abstract, in that the conceptual construct is the same under many different representations. It is nonetheless highly precise and richly detailed. I believe the hard part of building software to be the specification, design, and testing of this conceptual construct, not the labor of representing it and testing the fidelity of the representation. We still make syntax errors, to be sure; but they are fuzz compared to the conceptual errors in most systems.

I don’t think it is - and I’m not saying that because I think I’m good, it’s because programming is just a different way of thinking

This different way of thinking is something that some people simply will never get, or not at the right level. I’m certainly not a great programmer but I know from experience I’m above average. I know a lot of programmers that simply cannot grasp things above a certain level of abstraction. These are college-educated programmers with years of experience. The easiest way to tell is that bad programmers turn simple problems into complicated code, and good programmers turn complicated problems into simple code.

digdilem ,

Nice quote - but I don’t think it does hold up as truly as it did in the 80s. There is an unimaginable wealth of systems and design tools available now that were not around then. Even something take for granted like a gui schema designer - hell, even SQL itself wouldn’t be around until almost a decade later, and that was partly designed to simplify database queries. Every step like that has simplified what we do today. Debugging tools are light years ahead of when I was writing C in the early 90s. Debugging then was pretty much “try and compile it and then fix the errors”. Now there’s linters, memory profilers, automatic pipelines and all the rest of that. Much of that is offset by the fact we do far more complicated things than we did, and that those very tools mean there’s a lot more to learn and master beyond the mere language.

I do concede and agree with your last paragraph. Design is more important than implementation, and elegance of code and concept is a timeless beauty. One of the hardest things I’ve had to learn is that thinking about coding is often far more productive than actually coding, and too many times I’ve been a busy fool, re-writing and starting over many times because I later found out a better way.

BorgDrone ,

All those tools you mention would fall under the accidental complexity header. There have been many advances in that field. But none of those tools reduce the essential complexity. SQL doesn’t mean you don’t have to think about how you organize your data. You still need to think about things like normalization. Even ORM doesn’t free you from this.

Same goes for debuggers, sure it’s easier to inspect code at runtime but that doesn’t help you design good code.

You can reduce this accidental complexity but in the end there is always the core of the essential complexity. The difference with past decades is that for a simple program the accidental complexity would be a huge part of the total complexity, so in that regard you’re right. It has become a lot easier to write trivial programs where the essential complexity is very low.

This may apply to a lot of hobby-level / beginner projects, but in the end it doesn’t have as much an impact on what we do as professionals. As you said, I spend a lot more time thinking about coding than actually writing code. Especially as I got older and more experienced. As a senior developer I write a fraction of the code I did as a junior, but I’m working on more complicated problems as well.

fiah , to programmerhumor in i love Krieger memes
@fiah@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

yeah well NPM, it’s either this or I nuke the very ground you’re standing on

McSquanch , to programmerhumor in I also had to post one of these

This one hit close to home, better not awaken anything in me…

Scrabbone , to programmerhumor in 2+0=20
@Scrabbone@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I didn’t know that one. Thanks for the laugh

zqwzzle , to programmerhumor in Tabs vs Spaces

It’s easier to do Fibonacci indentation with spaces. imgur.com/gallery/JrSd8WS

nailbar ,

I was hoping that link would have been an example of what that would look like

devhumor.com/content/…/fibbonaci-indentation.jpg

wavymoney , to fediverse in I designed a Material You app for Lemmy

This is beautiful. I know it’s not a release but it makes me wish I had an Android phone to test it anyway lol

landordragen , to fediverse in I designed a Material You app for Lemmy
@landordragen@lemmy.ml avatar

Looking very good. I’m on iOS, but I would definitely use an app that look as good as that, as long as it performed good as well.

Congratulations and keep up the good work.

xan1242 , to fediverse in I designed a Material You app for Lemmy

Keeping a native OS UI design language for an app is very nice. Apollo was a great example of this!

I’d love to see Android’s version of the same thing.

Streetdog , to programmerhumor in Tabs vs Spaces
@Streetdog@lemmy.world avatar

2 spaces for indentation. When I find/grep my files for tabs you’ll find me at the bar.

Restaldt ,

Hey there old sport, Might I interest you in a reverse mortgage or some collectors coins?

BeigeAgenda , to programmerhumor in Warnings? No thanks
@BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m more of a -Werror person.

whoamibro , to programmerhumor in Tabs vs Spaces

I do 8 spaces to make my code ultra-readable and to discourage too much nesting of things.

amanaftermidnight , to programmerhumor in Hacked together, nonsensical at times, used basically everywhere.

I’ll take English over its predecessor… shudders French, any time.

derelict ,
@derelict@lemmy.world avatar

Does that make French PHP?

dankm ,

Old English is a rather precise language that isn’t inheriently terrible. I long for a revival of the dead language.

darknavi , to programmerhumor in eventually you just stop giving a fuck
@darknavi@vlemmy.net avatar

Interns are the ones who causes the crash.

dev ,

As a developer with over a decades experience, I can assure you I contribute my fair share of fuck ups.

Nobody is immune to mistakes, regardless of level.

GlitchyDigiBun ,
@GlitchyDigiBun@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

But you do get better about hiding it/making it the compiler’s fault.

dev ,

On a serious note, when I do make a mistake, I make sure everybody knows it.

It ensures those more junior know it’s ok to fuck up. But I will also write up a short summary/post mortem so everybody can learn from my mistake.

Seeing how teams handle mistakes is a good indicator of culture.

I’m aware I’m turning a joke into a serious discussion, so I’ll just shut up now.

guyman , to fediverse in Second largest Lemmy instance preemptively un-friends Facebook

deleted_by_moderator

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  • Squiglet ,

    Dude you’ve been shitting on people all over this thread. What’s your problem?

    guyman ,

    What are you talking about? There is a lot of wrong information and childish sentiments.

    Can you ask the people shitting on me what’s their problem? Some guy said I had a hardon for Zucc, lol. Funny how none of you are criticizing him. Probably because you are biased.

    abclop99 , to programmerhumor in Tabs vs Spaces

    Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment.

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