Yeah, the last time I went to a chiropractor for back pain, they also “corrected” my neck which in the past felt good but this time it just immediately pulled a muscle in my neck and left me in pain and barely able to turn my head for weeks.
It’s better now, but I’ll never go back to a chiropractor again because of the risk of making things worse for essentially no benefit.
Also animals, I saw a video of someone doing it to a pit bull and after he cracked the dogs neck the pit gave him the “I’m going to rip your fucking throat out” look.
Thank your pointing this out. It’s not just any stroke too, it’s primarily vertebral/basilar artery distribution strokes. Those supply the brain stem which includes such necessary functions as control of breathing and consciousness. You don’t want a stroke anywhere, but particularly not there.
Some chiropractors might swing back that, you’ve only showed correlation not causation. Well, when we have no clear evidence of chiropractic neck manipulation being helpful for anything, and we have a likely very dangerous correlation, the clinical parsimony is just not there. So no one is going to run that study (give a large amount of people neck manipulation, a large amount of people no neck manipulation, and compare rates of stroke that occur afterwards), it would be very unethical, no institutional review board would ever approve that study as ethical to perform.
And it makes a lot of sense too, the vertebral artery is encased in the neck vertebrae, so violent movements of the neck vertebrae can stretch and tear those arteries. Those tears, called a dissection, can sometimes obstruct blood flow all on their own, but more often create a spot for blood clots to form that then move onward into the brain and basilar artery (since there’s turbulent blood flow and a defect in the smooth artery wall that normally prevents your blood from clotting). So please, no violent neck movements for any reason, chiropractor or otherwise.
This. My friend had a triple stroke shortly after having neck manipulation done by a standin for his usual chiropractor. Luckily he survived, but it has very much opened my eyes to how dangerous it can be.
Indeed. I’ve got a chiropractor in my family, and I actively avoid talking to them about their work because I’ve always been convinced that it causes more harm than good. I think they finally got the hint after the 1000th time I refused their offer of an adjustment. They do some genuinely bizarre stuff beyond the standard adjustments, and talk about it like it’s proven science.
“Testing” for allergies or nutritional deficiencies by holding a sample up to your forehead and then applying downward pressure to your outstretched arms to “determine” sensitivity. Weird stuff like that.
Edit: I believe it’s called Applied Kinesiology, but that just makes it sound legit. Which it’s not.
The core tenet of chiropractics is that “life force” flows through the spine and “blocks” in that is what causes diseases/pains.
Most people think they are some kind of spine experts, while in reality it is nothing like that and more like concepts of Chi and meridians.
The thing is, a lot of chiros don’t delve into that crap, because it’s such obvious bullshit, but some do and will tell you in all sincerity that cracking that L6-8 might just kill your cancer.
It seems to me that atlas orthogonal adjustment is more of a real thing offered than just getting your neck twisted, then again as someone who probably needs that (I had whiplash many years ago) I have no idea if the places near me have the equipment for it (or x-ray stuff needed) so that along with paperwork/scheduling has stopped me.
The full title of an osteopath is “Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.” From a quick Google search, “An osteopath is a licensed physician who practices medicine using both conventional treatments and osteopathic manipulative medicine”
Having been to one, I found the manipulation to be unhelpful. She quickly zoomed into the trouble spot, but the treatment did nothing for me. But at least it didn’t actively harm me. I later received proper medical treatment from a neurosurgeon and physical therapy, because that’s what I needed instead of a manipulation.
So a bullshit artist who should know better and hides behind a real license for a faint whiff of legitimacy? No thanks, evidence-based medicine only please.
Many many DOs never actually practice osteopathic medicine because they know it is generally hit or miss at best. You probably have been seen by a DO if you’re in the US and never knew it
I think your first point, if true, says something important about their recognition of the validity of the practice. The second claim is challenging to prove or disprove. Anecdotally, I can tell you that my current doctor isn’t into any of that stuff but don’t have the academic history of every physician who has ever asked me to turn my head and cough in front of me.
It is true at least amongst the doctors I know. MDs and DOs learn the same curriculum DOs just have the not evidence based tacked on. A lot of DOs also prefer evidence based medicine and there’s not too much for at least half the osteopathic medicine techniques.
Since you probably don’t know osteopathic medicine references the techniques you probably know as chiropractic care. DOs still learn real medicine so don’t go scoffing at them for letters. I watched my DO friends/colleagues go through the same shit as my MD friends/colleagues
It’s basically a car mechanic that also do crystal healing and claim changing the car battery and placing a piece of quarts on the dashboard had equal parts in fixing the car.
I met one of these in an airport bar! He introduced himself as a doctor then when I asked what specialty, he said he’s a chiropractor. “Ohhhh, so not a doctor doctor.”
Somehow, colloquially, we came to only refer to MD’s ( Doctor of Medicine ) as doctors.
A PhD is just a Doctor of Philosophy. A PhD doesn’t make anyone a doctor more so than an MD or a JD. Yes, even a lawyer is a doctor.
Anybody with a doctorate degree is a doctor. And just for fun, all a doctorate means is the highest degree awarded by a graduate school or other approved educational organization. Feel like I’m getting too technical with this so I’m just going to stop writing this comment.
Just because he’s not a Doctor of Medicine doesn’t mean he’s not a doctor. A Doctor of Chiropractic is exactly that, regardless of its questionable merits.
There’s a distinct difference between “I’m Dr. Johnson” and “My name is John and I’m a doctor.”
At least in American English. It’s also very arrogant to introduce yourself as Dr. So and So outside of a professional setting if you’re any kind of doctor.
Not to mention he doubled down and said in Texas he’s a primary care provider that can practice medicine when I pushed back a little. He wasn’t being ambiguous, he saw himself equivalent to a MD.
That’s a weird standard. People see physicians for years because of chronic issues.
Are you saying my brothers oncologist isn’t legit because he has to see him for life ?
Not all their techniques are garbage. DO are trained in manipulation as well. The basic premise of chiropractics is what’s at fault. I’ve seen newer chiropractics switch to more PT style of treatment. No idea if that’s in their scope but I know one who rarely adjust people. It’s mainly massage, weight lifting and body mechanics.
One point of going to a MD is to treat an existing condition. Obviously not every condition can be cured but that’s the aim. Chiropractic doesn’t even try and treat a condition, it’s all about short term relief.
For what it’s worth, as a massage therapist I’ve interviewed with some chiropractors and know plenty of other therapists who have worked for them. The number of chiropractors NOT doing some kind of shady billing or breaking some other scope of practice/ethical boundaries is shockingly small. I’m sure they exist, but in swapping stories with other therapists over almost 2 decades, I might know 1.
For example, one Chiro I interviewed with had his “program” set as patients being categorized into “back” or “neck” patients. Depending on which you were categorized into determined how many sessions (manipulation plus other therapies) per week for 8 weeks the patient would receive. After 8 weeks he would reassess. Seriously waiting 8 weeks to see if it’s helping. He knew what insurances would cover, so he cookie cuttered his whole practice. From what it looked like I don’t think people “graduated” by getting better, moreso just once they ran out of money.
Seriously. I had a friend extolling how good his experience with his chiropractor was, in response to my tale about physical therapy after a skiing accident. I ended the argument pretty quickly by asking “how often do you have to go back”
Unless you have so much pain that you’re unable to do even the most basic PT exercises, like me. PT did absolutely nothing, and it was $200 out of pocket for each stupid appt.
Everyone will have different experiences. Going to a chiropractor helped me with my posture in the long term. After my first visit it was no longer uncomfortable to stand up straight. I used to have this lump in the back of my neck and whatever they did made that go away. I did initially go for back pain and I can't say if the visits helped with back pain in the long term but the adjustment did help me with my posture.
I went nine times. I don't think I needed to keep going but I kept agreeing to the next appointment lol. My HSA covered it at least. Except for the first few appointments I'd go once a month. I don't plan on going again for now.
YSK that Medical Doctors are also not Chiropractors. This is why the letters after their names are different. M.D. means Medical Doctor, and D.C. means Doctor of Chiropractic. The major differences in their educations being Surgery, and Drugs for the MDs, and Nutrition, Physical Therapy, Manual Therapy are studied more by DCs. Depending on licensure laws both can order imaging, laboratory testing, and prescribe massage or physical therapy. Also the MD will only have 3-7 minutes to spend with you, and the DC will have much more time to do intake, history, therapy, and to explain what is going on with you and what can be done to improve your situation. Here's a fun fact for ya, some of the injuries attributed to joint manipulation, and this is well documented, were from barbers, kung fu teachers, and yes, MDs and PTs who went to a weekend course in manipulation, instead of the numerous semesters of learning that a DC will have as part of their normal coursework.
@NataliePortland, what's your issue? Why do you care so much about this particular topic?
Yeah NataliePortland, why do you care that people are getting ripped off and, in some cases, injured or killed for no benefit? They’re not even you, it makes no sense.
I could start spending my time bashing various professions, I suppose, but I've got better things to do. However, since you are obviously interesting in people being ripped off, injured or killed here's this, the first article that came up on search from PubMed:
Our prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer in the United States and Europe. Around half of those who die have taken their drugs correctly; the other half die because of errors, such as too high a dose or use of a drug despite contraindications. Our drug agencies are not particularly helpful, as they rely on fake fixes, which are a long list of warnings, precautions, and contraindications for each drug, although they know that no doctor can possibly master all of these. Major reasons for the many drug deaths are impotent drug regulation, widespread crime that includes corruption of the scientific evidence about drugs and bribery of doctors, and lies in drug marketing, which is as harmful as tobacco marketing and, therefore, should be banned. We should take far fewer drugs, and patients should carefully study the package inserts of the drugs their doctors prescribe for them and independent information sources about drugs such as Cochrane reviews, which will make it easier for them to say "no thanks".
It is a free article, so you can read the whole thing, if you wish to be better informed.
No professions are being bashed here, just liars and thieves. One can be a professional thief, of course, but it’s not a respectable line of work and I won’t waste too much time hand-wringing over what they and their supporters feel about what I say.
Here’s one simple test: for a risk to be acceptable, there must be a benefit which can be achieved through taking that risk. Low risk, high benefit is good and high risk, low benefit is bad. I’m not going to defend the whole prescription drug industry because obviously it has its share of shitheads. Still, the broad range of products tends to fall on the favorable side of the risk/benefit balance when used as intended which is something I can’t say for no-benefit practices like chiropractic, osteopathic or any of the other imitation medicine offerings out there.
I’ve been cracking nearly every joint in my body for my whole life. So, I understand that it can feel amazing when you get 10 good pops down your spine.
On two occasions (over 40 years) my neck was so stiff, it caused incredible pain to move it at all.
Both of those times, someone I know recommended a chiropractor. Each time, I went in for an initial appointment and a follow up, and every single time, I left feeling exactly as miserable as when I walked in the door.
The first guy karate chopped my neck, which made it hurt more for the rest of the day. And the second guy just put some electrodes on my back and left the room while the machine zapped me for ten minutes. Neither of them ever claimed to know what was wrong or how to fix it. They just said, “We can try this and see how you feel. 🤷🏻♂️”
I’ve seen no evidence that they can do anything more than what I was able to figure out with a chair in 4th grade.
I know this but I still don’t understand it. I started visiting a chiropractor for my first time last year and I’m old. I couldn’t sit for a week. I couldn’t get my socks on. I couldn’t lay in any position in bed except on my back. I went, and I was immediately 80-90% better. Had to do followups for about 6 weeks and I haven’t been back 😂.
I don’t understand why they aren’t.
Of course core strengthening is always better but that’s preventative.
Ya! OP is just hiding behind this Wikipedia article on chiropractors loaded with all those so-called “sources” from scientific journals. I bet she doesn’t even have a nice story about a time she went to a chiropractor and felt better.
If you read long enough, you’ll realize that all these studies essentially suggest whatever idea they are trying to promote. Often it is with bias.
The takeaway is that you should not just blanket ban a whole profession just because someone says they aren’t a doctor. That’s nonsense. There are way more factors than that.
it’s a temporary fix. A patch up. If you don’t focus on proper posture and stretching excersizes, it’s very likely you could end up in that same situation again
I went to a chiro for a while and it did help but I think it was mainly because they'd have me do a fairly comprehensive set of stretches at the beginning of each visit. I stopped going to the chiro but I keep doing the stretches.
Even if they made me feel better it is so temporary that I’d have to come again, and again. I’d rather go to a massage therapist who could also get the rest of my body too without the risk of vertebral artery dissection.
The best thing I’ve found for my back is slow, varied motions and stretches. I do tai chi and qigong and they really loosen me up.
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