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yogthos

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yogthos OP ,
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Ah yes, providing an alternative to US exploitation of the world is AuThoRitaRiaN! 🤡

yogthos OP ,
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From another angle Germany twisted the US’ arm until they did what we wanted them to do. Atlanticism in Germany is right-wing, the SPD certainly has its faults but worshipping the US is not one of them.

The top EU think tank very clearly disagrees with you here. It’s also pretty clear that Germany ended up being the big loser here given that it’s now in a recession. So, I guess if that’s what Germany wanted then it certainly did a brilliant job twisting US’ arm to destroy German industry. Given that this has been the stated goal of US for years now, I don’t think much twisting required here.

Against who? Aliens?

Europe wouldn’t have anyone to defend itself against if it didn’t keep creating enemies for itself. It was entirely possible to dismantle NATO after USSR collapsed and integrate Russia into Europe as an equal. Instead, Europe chose to have an antagonistic relationship with Russia, and now Europe finds itself in a protection racket situation.

Finally, the idea that Europe could fight US or Russia in an all out war is completely delusional. Europe lacks the industrial base to do this kind of warfare, and it also lacks access to energy. Meanwhile, if we’re talking about nukes both US and Russia have literally an order of magnitude more nukes than all of Europe combined.

yogthos OP ,
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Literally, every government is fundamentally authoritarian because it holds the monopoly on violence by virtue of controlling the police and military forces of the country. It’s a nonsensical terms that illiterate people use because they think it sounds scary.

yogthos OP ,
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No, that’s political power, and they are voted into power and out again

The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. The power stays with the class that’s actually in charge which is the capital owning class. And there are numerous studies showing this to be the case. Here’s what one long term study of US politics has to say:

What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes.

Meanwhile, the fact that you keep claiming that China is a dictatorship just further exposes your ignorance on the subject you’re attempting to debate. This is wilful ignorance because you have been provided with numerous western sources demonstrating that this claim is false. Yet, you continue to repeat it.

And of course, the system that Russia resembles the most is the US. Don’t take my word for it though, it’s what your own state media says:

“American democracy is a sham, no matter how much it’s pumped by the oligarchs who run the country (and who control the nation’s “news” media),” he writes. “

You are shamefully ignorant of the subject you’re attempting to debate. Spend some time educating yourself instead of trolling here.

yogthos OP ,
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Now, now, let’s not let facts get in the face of the narrative here.

yogthos OP ,
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😂

yogthos ,
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Seems like the problem isn’t with democracy, but with the western flavor of liberal parliamentary democracy. Democracy is working just fine in China according to people who live there. All the available studies, including ones coming from prominent western institutions such as Harvard, consistently show that China is democratic and that public satisfaction with the government is far higher than in any western country:

edit: amazing to see rediquette seep into Lemmy now with people downvoting anything that doesn’t fit with their preconceptions.

It’s also evident that a lot of people here don’t actually understand what democracy actually is. Democracy is when the government implements the will of the majority. What the links I’ve provided show is that the government in China consistently works in the interest of the people of China, and this is reflected in consistently high public satisfaction with the government. Furthermore, the links show that public participation in the governance of China is far higher than it is in the western countries. The party has 15 million members, and consists largely of working class people. Meanwhile, western parties are filled with rich career politicians with practically no working class representation.

The sheer amount of political illiteracy in the west is equal parts depressing and hilarious.

yogthos ,
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Just stating basic facts bro.

yogthos ,
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Sorry, you can’t have democracy without basic political agency. You can’t have basic political agency without the ability to speak freely.

Somebody should let people like Assange, Manning, and Snowden know that they can speak freely.

Picking between three party approved technocrats is not sufficient for political self determination.

Ah yes, real democracy is picking between parties owned by the oligarchs. 😂

yogthos ,
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Imagine thinking oligarchs control China 😂

yogthos ,
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It’s amazing how much factual information you can find in western sources when you know where to look. The genius of western propaganda though is that majority of people will not read these sources, and will react the way we see a lot of people in this thread reacting when presented with them. There’s no need for censorship because people censor themselves collectively. This is the ultimate brainwashing the west managed to achieve.

yogthos ,
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Yeah, I’m as serious as Harvard is. Maybe bother learning about the subject you’re opinion on?

yogthos ,
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It’s like I linked a whole bunch of scholarly articles from institutions like Harvard explaining Chinese politics. The reality is that people in China have seen their lives consistently improve with each and every decade. Countless studies show that the standard of living in China is improving at an incredible rate, and that people see the government work in their interest.

And yes, China isn’t perfect, there’s corruption, but that’s missing the point entirely. Corruption exists in every human society, the discussion is whose interest the government is working in. In the west the government works in the interest of the capital owning class, in China it works in the interest of the working majority.

yogthos ,
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Bro I have friends from China, and lots of my friends moved back to China after university. Weird how Chinese students keep returning to China because it’s such a hell right. What’s insane is that somebody could live in the west and not see the brainwashing.

Meanwhile, it’s absolutely hilarious how you keep going on about corruption when countries like US have an entire government owned by the oligarchs.

Again, the fact you keep dancing around is that quality of life in China has been improving dramatically by practically every measure, meanwhile the opposite is happening in the west. That’s the elephant in the room mr. transparency index.

yogthos ,
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So what you are saying is that you suddenly aren’t interested in data?

You mean data such as this? businessinsider.com/typical-chinese-adult-now-ric…

that the west has been raising people out of poverty for 200 years and is still doing a pretty decent job of it.

That’s a false statement:

If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

Western liberalism has resulted in some of the worst crimes against humanity in the past 200 years such as the slave trade and the genocide of the native population in America to name a couple.

Look, we all know that western liberalism has a lot of really fucking dumb shit about it in the current iteration. And I will definitely acknowledge that there are a lot of good ideas in China. China’s economic miracle is laudable, but - and I say this as a person with an actual stake in Chinese society - it’s time for China to do better, and China doesn’t get better when delusional tankies defend its many clear and obvious problems.

Nobody said China couldn’t and shouldn’t do better or that China doesn’t have problems. This is literally the case for every human society. However, what’s being argued is that China is demonstrably producing better material outcomes than western liberal democracies are.

yogthos ,
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Compared to China, Cuba, and Vietnam.

yogthos ,
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The numbers say that people in China are now better off than people in Europe. And this is with China having to rebuild itself after a civil war and the destruction in WW2. Meanwhile, the reason the west is rich is because the west colonized the rest of humanity and has been brutally exploiting it. Claiming that the west is rich because of liberalism is factually wrong. The west is rich because it enslaved billions of people across the globe plundering their labour and resources.

You are making a moral argument, to which I am marginally sympathetic, and backing it up with bad information.

What specifically is the bad information you’re referring to. I’ve provided you with the actual numbers here.

yogthos ,
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Cuba would like to have a word with you

yogthos ,
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Adorable that you think west isn’t authoritarian. Every government is fundamentally authoritarian because the government has the monopoly on violence, that’s where its authority comes from. And when people in western countries don’t behave the governments unleash their security forces on them as they did during George Floyd protests in US and they’re doing in France right now.

yogthos ,
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It’s always amazing to see the wild fantasies westies believe about other countries.

yogthos ,
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Ah yes, resorting to name calling when you don’t have any actual point to make.

yogthos ,
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Literally every word of that is a falsehood.

yogthos ,
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People in China say it’s a democratic country that represents their interests, but I’m sure a western chauvinist who’s never been to China knows a lot better than people living there.

yogthos ,
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oh hey, why don’t you quote the rest of it? 😂

yogthos ,
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They aren’t loaning out money to have ports built?

The myth of Chinese debt trap has been thoroughly debunked, just a few examples

Their government isn’t filled with some of their richest?

It’s demonstrably not. The government is predominantly filled with working class people

They don’t have a program reducate certain peoples that includes shipping them accross the country?

A weird framing for programs to provide people with jobs and education.

Like come on, some of these are just established public facts that even the CCP doesn’t deny.

As I said, every single claim you made is disinformation. Also, no idea what CCP is. It’s called the Communist Party of China, CPC. The fact that you can’t even get that straight says volumes.

yogthos ,
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Again, you Wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source for these things, and I’ve provided you with very different numbers from other sources. Pretty much every source that accounts for stuff like PPP shows that China is doing quite well compared to the west. However, you once again ignore the fact that the west had a head start, and that the wealth in the west comes from colonialism. China’s growth doesn’t come at the cost of impoverishment of other countries the way western growth does. Finally, the really important part is the trajectory. Life in China is improving, life in the west is getting worse.

And claiming that when I’m arguing in bad faith or moving goal posts when I’ve been consistently saying the same thing and backing up with sources says everything I need to know about you. Bye.

yogthos ,
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Yes, these are actual sources. This whole narrative that official Chinese sources are somehow unreliable isn’t actually based on anything other than pure chauvinism. This is no different from linking about a US government site talking about US government. And it’s the height of absurdity to claim that National Congress or the Central Committee don’t hold any power. I love how you just make things up and state them confidently as a form of argument.

yogthos ,
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Who told you that official Chinese sources are unreliable, was it the “reliable” western sources that continuously lie about everything regarding China by any chance? 😂

yogthos ,
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I’m pretty sure I’ve looked into it a lot more than you have, but do go on.

yogthos ,
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Yes, you really should work on the quality of your research based on your comments.

yogthos OP ,
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Claiming that China and USSR aren’t socialist quite clearly illustrates that you do not in fact know what socialism is.

yogthos OP ,
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here archive.ph/dOGtT

yogthos OP ,
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Having actually grown up in USSR, I absolutely do think so.

yogthos OP ,
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The main disconnect is that regular people living in USSR did not feel oppressed, and most people were generally happy with their lives. I find there is a fixation on maximizing freedom of speech in the west, but the reality is that it’s not something vast majority of people thinks about day to day. Even in he west, most people aren’t even able to articulate what communism or capitalism actually is. In fact, I would argue that when a country is in a situation where politics becomes the dominant topic most people think about that’s a sign that things aren’t going great.

Everybody in USSR had their needs met, work wasn’t exploitative, and people didn’t work that hard, there was lots of vacation, and guaranteed retirement. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending up on the street or not being able to retire in dignity. It’s really hard to convey how much stress that removes from people’s lives. Crime was extremely low, elderly people would go to the parks in the evenings, the idea of being mugged seemed completely outlandish. Kids could go anywhere unsupervised and parents never worried about it.

There was a lot more opportunity for self actualization in USSR because you didn’t have to get a career that was profitable to exploit. For example, you wanted to become an artist or a scientist and pursue some obscure topic then you could do that without having to think about whether it could be monetized or not.

City planning was excellent compared to anything I’ve seen in the west. Everything was broken up into self sufficient microdistricts that had parks, schools, hospitals, and stores within walking distance. You didn’t need a car to get around, and public transit was excellent.

The main downsides that I remember were around lack of commodities. My family still had a black and white TV in the 80s and a rotary phone. This would be the main complaint most people had.

This was the main motivation for trying the western system. Most people knew that people in the west had nice things like fast cars, fancy clothes, gadgets and so on. Since nobody actually had any understanding of what capitalism was like, they just assumed that they would get to keep all the good aspects of USSR and get all the cool stuff west had on top of that. By the time people realized what a horror this was it was too late to turn things around.

Modern day Russia largely resembles what we see in the west. I think Russia has regressed in terms of human rights, it now has oligarchs running things, there is homelessness, and life expectancy has dropped significantly. It’s exactly same dynamic we see in the west where a small minority lives off the exploitation of the majority. However, even despite all that capitalists still haven’t manged to dismantle all of the legacy of USSR. This thread on Reddit shows that the worker rights situation in Russia today is still far ahead of what we see in US.

yogthos OP ,
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I see seething and coping is going well for you

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