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Elivey ,

I guess that meme I keep seeing that’s asks “did we leave all the stupid people on reddit?” Was wrong.

Y’all can’t understand a few simple metaphorical images that looks like it was designed for children to understand, and are going all out in contriving obtuse reasons for why it doesn’t work or isn’t realistic.

Yes, of course if this was real she could walk to the other side, but it’s a fucking metaphor.

neutron ,

Arguing about the metaphors and analogies instead of actual topics? Saw plenty of those during college, especially when the guy in question was being a contrarian just to ‘stick it to the man’ and look cool to their buddies.

I thought working adults would grow out of it - nah, we’re all dumb children inside, including me.

marmo7ade ,

The irony is delicious. We clearly did not leave all the stupid people on reddit.

Yea it’s a metaphor. Congratulations. Want to talk about actual, real life issues and how to fix them? Because metaphors mean precisely jack shit when you need to apply them to reality and deal with real humans who disagree with each other.

afunkysongaday ,

It’s just such a bad metaphor. Not simple, bad.

KaleDaddy ,

I see it all the time. A certain demographic seemingly cannot comprehend metaphors and jf it isnt literally perfect in every way they attack it. I think really they know they wont look good admitting they have issues with the message of equality/equity so they attack the method of delivery instead

intensely_human ,

i.imgur.com/zhpeP0n.jpg

Pixlbabble ,

Equality of outcomes is commie speech

imPastaSyndrome ,

Wow I didn’t know communism was so based and perfect. Thanks for letting me know what system to base my belief system around, kind stranger!

ThrowawayPermanente ,

We could also just shoot the kulak on the left and take back the apples she stole from the people’s tree

Widowmaker_Best_Girl ,

Ah yes, the communist solution.

Reliant1087 ,

The revolutionary solution, not necessarily communist. Like Boston tea party and what followed

imPastaSyndrome ,

Ah yes, the communist boston tea party, French Revolution and … I dunno I don’t feel like putting more effort into this comment

Oyster_Lust ,
@Oyster_Lust@lemmy.world avatar

Equality should be in protection of rights. People are not equal, and never will be. They should have equal rights, though.

Steve Vai is a better guitarist than I am. He shouldn’t have his fingers broken so that we both have equal ability to play the guitar.

Trying to make people equal in every way is evil. It only brings the best in every field down to the level of the worst, since there’s no way to bring everyone up to the level of the best in every field.

ImGonnaTryScience ,

That’s not the point of equity. The point is to compensate for disadvantages people couldn’t prevent and can’t fix on their own. Stairs are equal. They work the same way for everyone. But someone in a wheelchair can’t climb stairs.

Reliant1087 ,

But you can reframe it. People don’t have equal mobility but everyone has an equal right to access a place, so you have stairs and ramps. You can’t make everything a ramp or stair to create equality.

duffman ,

That’s not how equity works in practice. It doesn’t examine anyone’s actual capabilities or disadvantages. They bucket large groups of people into categories they deem worthy to receive resources, despite their actual need. Every person has their individual story, challenges, and priveleges yet equity assumes otherwise, that you deserve compensation based on the group you were assigned to, not what you actually need.

ssboomman ,

That’s just not true. That’s how a person would feel if equity didn’t specifically help them.

oce ,
@oce@jlai.lu avatar

It may work like that in practice in fields where it is extremely difficult to design solutions that are adapted to each person. Imagine you have to tailor laws and their application specifically to many millions of individuals, how do you do that without creating more manageable categories?

ryathal ,

In practice that’s equity programs work by hurtingsomeone. Some California schools cut advanced math classes because they weren’t diverse enough, or it was contributing to an educational gap, or some bullshit. Equity requires adding burden to someone, it may be in an attempt at fairness, but that doesn’t make it right.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

In practice that’s equity programs work by hurtingsomeone

[citation needed]

duffman ,

Equality people: “Let’s fund these people who are objectively poor, they are disadvantaged and need it.”.

Equity people: “let’s fund people part of this group I can clearly identify by looking at them. They are likely to be disadvantaged.”

Kage520 ,

Not sure why everyone is downvoting any opinion that isn’t “give minorities all the available resources!”.

It should not be: you need x% of your classroom seats to go to minorities. That’s silly because talented and driven people will be sent away to make space. It should be more like: “you must provide an avenue to help those who can prove disadvantaged status to take extra classes and then reapply to your program.” These classes could be online or whatever to make it as easy as possible for someone with less means but still driven to succeed have a way to better themselves.

imPastaSyndrome ,

“let’s fund people part of this group I can clearly identify by looking at them. They are likely to be disadvantaged.”

Uh… they don’t identify by looking at them you braindead fool. They do means testing. As in - actually seeing if they need it.

duffman ,

Firstly, be respectful.

There is a huge range of equity implementations in the US. My company, for example, has not done any “means testing” when recruiting for racial equity. Nor when it donates to blanket racial programs. There was no means testing when internships were offered to high school students of particular demographics.

Bartsbigbugbag ,

When you’re so used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

ssboomman ,

Lmaooo the only people who use that California talking point are people who have never been inside of a school in California. They aren’t cutting math classes they are offering alternatives to high level math courses like calculus, stats, and data science. Explain to me how that’s burdening anyone??

thereisalamp , (edited )

You entirely missed the point of this picture.

This picture isn’t about breaking Steve’s fingers so you can both play shitty guitar. It’s about making sure you can both access a guitar and lessons to learn.

The equality picture would be shoving a guitar in each of your hands and a coupon for lessons, while failing to address that you live 2 hours away from the teacher while he lives next door.

Eta: equity would be providing you with a free buss ride to the teachers house 2 hours away. This gives you all the tools to get guitar lessons, but, you might not be able to take advantage of this because a 5 hour commitment isn’t the same as a 1 hour 5 minute commitment and you lose out on opportunity cost. You get free guitar lessons and a ride, but the system is broken. Justice is fixing the system so that there’s enough guitar teachers within a reasonable distance. Like say, making sure that no one is more than 20 minutes from a guitar teacher.

duffman ,

The picture misses the millions of people who are too poor to afford a ladder and don’t belong to one of the groups targeted by the equity crowd.

readthemessage ,

The equity crowd should want the poor people to afford a ladder, I do not understand your point.

duffman ,

Then they would put resources to poor people of any demographic.

readthemessage ,

You’re totally right, ideally yes.

Unfortunately, resources are limited and starting from somewhere is better than not starting at all.

thereisalamp ,

This is where justice would come in. Fixing the system so that resources are distributed automatically to provide everyone with equitable access to the tools

whats_a_refoogee ,

It’s about making sure you can both access a guitar and lessons to learn.

We are already trying to do that. It’s called equality. Also known as equality of opportunity, where everyone has access to acquire a guitar and guitar lessons. How does “justice” augment this?

thereisalamp ,

You failed at reading the rest of the comment.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Nobody is advocating for breaking fingers. Following the example set by the image, if someone were to have, for example, issues with their hands, then they should be provided tools to help them play the guitar. Do you think someone with a disability shouldn’t be allowed to do things even though tools to let them do those things exist? Keeping up such barriers is how we miss out on amazing talents hampered by obstacles that could be overcome provided adequate access.

Kage520 ,

I think what he was saying, but slightly missed, was, if both people needed guitar classes, we should not give the guy with the hand issues the only available seat.

Really though, if we just spend a bit more on education, there could be seats for everyone! So maybe the last picture could be fertilizing the tree to make it bigger or something.

readthemessage ,

What he said is something closer to “We should not tax the rich to level the playing field” and that is a very bad take.

JustAThought ,

There is no taking away. Someone will have access to guitars that wouldn’t otherwise. Someone somewhere let a great player hear a guitar, see how it’s played, maybe even gave them their first guitar. it’s about giving not taking away.

JustAThought ,

I think your problem is that you think that something will be taken away. Try to think in terms of the giving. Steve is not going to have anything taken away. Someone will have access to guitars that wouldn’t otherwise. Steve will be fine.

SocialMediaRefugee ,

What if resources are limited? There is only one guitar but 3 people want one.

ssboomman ,

Then instead of letting the super advantaged, super rich take all the resources we should work on getting and producing more. Which probably starts with taking from the people who are hoarding them all.

phillaholic ,

According to the picture, increase the supply of guitars.

Cethin ,

At birth there are situations that give people advantages that have nothing to do with ability. These advantages are systemic, where certain people will have better access to opportunity (apples) than others. The goal should be that the opportunities are equal so no one has a head start. The best apple picker will pick more apples instead of the person born with an orchard and apple picking machinery who very well may be a shit apple picker.

For your example, we’d end up with the best musicians becoming popular, not the ones where their parent could afford to give them private lessons since childhood and had industry connections to make them big where they wouldn’t otherwise.

It’s not about equality of outcomes, it’s about equality of opportunity. No one should start a race with a head start because then you don’t know who the best runner is. Everyone should start equally and everyone should have equal access to the same shoes, equipment, and practice opportunity, otherwise we can’t see who’s actually best without an advantage.

kool_newt ,

Why is important to see who is “best”? That’s only important in sports, those which are not actually important.

Cethin ,

The comment above was about having the best guitarists. Regardless, why wouldn’t it be important to see who’s best? Why is it better to see who has the most advantages that weren’t earned? The argument for capitalism is that whoever can do the best gets rewarded the most. It’s fundamentally flawed because capitalism promotes creating barriers and ensuring the playing field isn’t even though.

No matter what the situation, having the best people doing the jobs will create the best outcomes for the most people. In what way is this not desirable?

SocialMediaRefugee ,

“Hmmm, he’s in a wheelchair so we’ll make things equal by chopping off your legs.”

ssboomman ,

You make it seem like correcting the tree in the last panel hurts the advantaged girl on the left. It does not.

readthemessage ,

What you mean is something close to “We should not tax the rich to level the playing field” and that is a very bad take.

No one wants to bring everyone up to the level of the best in every field. What people want is for the baseline conditions to be good enough so everyone has the opportunity of having a decent life.

It is such a large difference.

ssboomman ,

Why are you arguing against something literally no one said? How is this graphic trying to ‘make everyone equal in every way’? How is the person on the left of the graphic disadvantaged in any way? (That last one answers your idiotic ‘breaking fingers’ point)

GBU_28 ,

You’ll notice the Steve Vai apple picker (left) never has a reduction in apple access.

Your suggestion some harm might come to Steve Vai doesn’t make sense, he can access apples as well as ever

HamSwagwich ,

While your statement is true, the result is Steve Vai not having a motivation or reason to become the top apple picker. If his extreme efforts to become the best in a given field are nullified by a system that will give extra to someone who isn’t as good at it so that they can be as good as Steve, why bother with putting in that effort?

So yes, Steve is harmed by stealing his motivation and (potential) recognition by making the system anti-meritocracy and more about everyone being the same.

The equation changes when we live in a post scarcity society, but we didn’t live in one. Therefore we have motivational pressure to find a niche we are good at and exploit it to survive. Taking away that niche you might be talented at while others aren’t as talented, harm those people who now don’t have that niche to exploit.

Even in a post-scarcity world, where we have unlimited access to energy (and thus can create anything we need), the motivation for social recognition through innate talent and ability is going to drive the human race forward. Taking that away kills the human spirit and possibly the human race.

I bet you are against designer babies/gene editing to give a child a huge advantage over it’s peers, right? Because that is the logical conclusion of this metaphor and “justice.” Genetically engineering every baby to have equal access to abilities and talent.

DulyNoted ,

Meritocracy is a myth though, perpetuated by those lucky enough to benefit from existing systems.

It’s completely circular. I’m on top and the people who are on top are the best so because I’m on top I’m the best.

It never accounts for all the myriad non-merit related ways folks get on top in the first place.

IzzyJ ,

The problem isn’t even meritocracy or equality as goals, we just straight up haven’t achieved them yet.

June ,

This image isn’t about making people equal, it’s about making systems equal…

Cethin ,

I posted this to a comment further down, but thought I should post it up here:

At birth there are situations that give people advantages that have nothing to do with ability. These advantages are systemic, where certain people will have better access to opportunity (apples) than others. The goal should be that the opportunities are equal so no one has a head start. The best apple picker will pick more apples instead of the person born with an orchard and apple picking machinery who very well may be a shit apple picker.

For your example, we’d end up with the best musicians becoming popular, not the ones where their parent could afford to give them private lessons since childhood and had industry connections to make them big where they wouldn’t otherwise.

It’s not about equality of outcomes, it’s about equality of opportunity. No one should start a race with a head start because then you don’t know who the best runner is. Everyone should start equally and everyone should have equal access to the same shoes, equipment, and practice opportunity, otherwise we can’t see who’s actually best without an advantage.

Hazdaz ,

How is giving college scholarships or preferential admissions to one and only one specific group anything but inequality?

FinnFooted ,

Its the equity stage. Certain socioeconomic groups have fewer educational opportunities earlier in life. We should really move on to justice and fix that. But first, we need equity to help people now and make up for that.

Hazdaz , (edited )

That’s horseshit. Some poor person living right next door to some other poor person has access to X scholarship but the neighbor doesn’t. They went to the same schools growing up. Their parents make comparable money, but magically only one of them could get a free ride scholarship or gets easier access to school.

That’s not going to breed resentment. Nooo. Not at all.

APassenger ,

Meanwhile a neighborhood over, the kids don’t need scholarships.

Both scenarios breed resentment.

We need better answers, like… free public education, better schools, tutoring supplements for those who ask (including high acheivers), and it needs to go through uni and trades.

We can’t keep having people left behind because of structural issues. Poor decisions happen and it’s nice to soften blows where we can. But if a person commits no errors and ends up paycheck to paycheck for the rest of their life… that’s a failed society.

We need to transcend the “they get x and we don’t” part of this and get onto the real thing.

Reliant1087 ,

You’re missing the larger point. It isn’t about individuals.

If your parents and grandparents were from an ethnic/social/other group that did not have access to resources, then there’s less chance that you grow up in a household that values education or have resources like food, time with parents and caring adults, emotional support and, financial security and so on. These affect your academic success irrespective of how talented or smart you might be.

Providing better access to higher education for people from such groups is a way to make sure that their children don’t grow up in the same environment and the problem is solved over generations.

Such measures of equity are always stop gap measures to address problems until you find grass root level solutions. Right now say protected groups might be first Nations or African Americans. In the future that might change to immigrants from Ukraine or Honduras.

Hazdaz ,

It IS about the individual and claiming otherwise completely misses the damn point.

No one from a similar economic level living in a similar area has more advantages than anyone else. To claim otherwise is both racist and simply wrong and speaks to the tone-deaf nation of certain groups in this country.

Continuing down that erroneous path only breeds contempt for those who get preferential treatment because of something totally outside of their control.

If you think Beyonce’s kids (she’s worth $1/2 BILLION) are somehow downtrodden and being discriminated against more than some poor Asian family who just came to the US and are barely scraping by, then you are part of the problem as to why racism in this country seems to never go away. You are blindly focusing in on something as pointless as skin color instead of moving passed that to a post-racism world.

You based things like scholarships on need and merit. Some $30k/year family is no better off than some other $30k/year family just because one of them might be a certain color. That’s utter nonsense.

papertowels ,

What’s the differing factor between them?

Obviously if you paint this hypothetical situation as between two identical parties it’ll look silly. What do you think would differentiate the two enough to warrant a scholarship difference?

jtk ,
@jtk@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

One of them got “the talk”, the other didn’t. It’s not all about economic status. They’re treated different, no matter what. I see it every single day, even in friends and family, and even on Lemmy. This mindset just adds to the fire. Resentment is in the mind of the beholder, skin color is not a choice.

DarthBueller ,

What is the justice of a rich black valley girl from Santa Barbara (who was always going to be college-bound) getting a free ride because of her skin color despite ZERO financial need, and a poor white yokel kid from rural Alabama not going to school because she can’t afford to (who also gets zero social support for going to college because her culture decided to intentionally devalue education as being “liberal elite”)?

The fact that racism is a problem and that “the talk” is still a reality doesn’t justify race-based preferential treatment. No wonder culture wars are so easy to wage.

jtk ,
@jtk@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Culture wars are easy to wage because of childish assholes that can’t handle seeing someone else receiving aid. Poor white yokel kids from rural Alabama problems stem from their parents voting for shit people that want them to be poor and uneducated. Then they grow up to vote for the same breed of shit people, against the aid (education, fair labor laws, safety regulations, etc) everyone else is trying to give them. They dig their own graves, over and over. Minorities are born into a grave, they’re trying to crawl out of it and a ridiculous amount of assholes are, not only not lending a hand, they’re attacking anyone that tries. Affirmative action doesn’t work perfectly but only because it gets abused by those same assholes.

phillaholic ,

Can you link me to a source so I can review the details of that case?

DarthBueller ,

The source is me. One of my roommates was from Santa Barbara and enjoyed a free ride to a out-of-state public school based on her race. She reeked of money and privilege and had no business getting a free ride.

phillaholic ,

So every minority that wanted to attended that school got a scholarship then? Presumably a worse off minority should have taken the slot. Your missing a lot of vital context.

DarthBueller ,

Fair enough. I’m not singleminded about this, but it certainly raised my hackles hearing her go on and on in her valley girl meets prep school accent about how hard it was to be her, while she meanwhile had every privilege available to her,flew anywhere she wanted on a whim, and drove around a paid-for new Lexus SUV that her daddy gave her. I don’t know what justice should look like, but giving her a free ride sure as hell wasn’t it.

phillaholic ,

There are always going to be individuals that don’t deserve things. Across the entire population however, these systems work and well. For all we know she was in massive debt. I know throughout my twenties some of my peers would have new cars constantly and buy expensive things they didn’t need and most of the time I found out they had $10k+ on credit cards and were living paycheck to paycheck with no savings or investments.

It’s important to keep in mind that these systems are seeking to correct the long standing discrimination faced by people of color that were unable to obtain these things for no other reason than the color of their skin. They weren’t given access to capital despite being just as qualified as anyone else. They weren’t allowed to attend most colleges. Movies like Hidden Figures and the Banker, although dramatized, paint a picture of what needed to be corrected. As modern society chips away at these safeguards, it remains to be seen if we slip back into those patterns.

DarthBueller ,

She wasn’t in debt. It was family money in great abundance. Yet she deserves a hand on the scale because of her skin color? I’d rather see a just and effective social state for everyone instead of selective handouts in a broken system that effectively reifies race and othering. Does recognizing the harm of systemic racism require reinforcing the concept? We talk about race as a harmful social construct and yet push for reparatory systems that amplify and reinforce it.

phillaholic ,

Depends where the money came from. If he parents had it, she would have been disqualified from paying Nicole based scholarships. If her grandparents had it and not her parents, it wouldn’t have been known.

My point still stands. If the scholarship was solely based on the color of her skin, there must have been someone of the same race with more need that could have qualified. There had to be other merit attached to it.

If all things equal a black person got into college instead of a white person, then congratulations, you’ve experienced a little bit of what black people have gone through since the beginning of the nation in not just higher education, but jobs, housing, dealing with the police, etc.

It would be great if the problem could be solved without uneven rules. You’ll find it unrealistic to accomplish once learn how much is involved. You’re not asking to solve one problem, but dozens. Dozens of huge issues each with smaller sub-issues that could take you a lifetime to correct. Forcibly correcting it through affirmative action actually worked, and wouldn’t take generations.

DarthBueller ,

I’m pretty far left, and even I felt resentment as a first-generation college grad from a lower middle class background that had to go into massive debt for law school. A friend of mine had Pilipino and black parents that were college educated and quite well off, but she had a free ride to law school because of her skin color instead of her grades, despite having far less financial need than I did. There’s no reason a poor white yokel and a poor black kid, both of whom have substantial structural and cultural barriers keeping them from accessing higher education, should be treated differently. I am not denying history, or saying that systemic racism isn’t a thing, but history and systemic racism shouldn’t be justifications for furthering inequality.

Hazdaz ,

You don’t solve racism with MORE racism.

And “reverse racism” is no different than any other racism.

Yet that is exactly what is happening. And people see it happening and it turns off some of the same people who would otherwise support your cause. This is a situation that breeds resentment, and stories like the ones posted over the last few days where a LOT of young white males are turning to right-wing groups should not be a surprise to anyone. These terribly thought-out policies are pushing many white (as well as Asian and Indian and Cuban) voters away from left-leaning causes because they feel they are being excluded. The Left is fighting racism in the dumbest way possible… with more racism, and SHOCKINGLY it is blowing up in their faces.

phillaholic ,

All things considered, she will be hit with more roadblocks then you over the course of her life only because of the color of her skin, and being mixed. Consider this one of the only times where the shoes on the other foot. Many minorities feel like this constantly about most major elements of society.

FinnFooted ,

Because money doesn’t cover the whole issue. Two people starting at the same economic point, one is statistically more likely to have downward economic mobility compared to the other based on race. There are people in our society actively being held back.

duffman , (edited )

We have need based programs to address people who need help. Why not bolster to those? Why focus on shifting resources/programs away from the poor to people who objectively don’t need it as much? We know how much people need, we can measure income.

How much money/time/reaources are going into programs, grants, scholarships that target single demographics?

FinnFooted ,

We should certainly be helping the poor universally. Education should be free. Food should be a basic human right.

But, racism is well and alive in modern society. And it actively pushes people down based on race. So, we should address both issues.

duffman ,

racism is well and alive in modern society. And it actively pushes people down based on race.

I noticed that when I was trying to apply for scholarships.

FinnFooted ,

And yet, you still have a statically better chance at upward mobility than the people who obtained these scholarships. And, don’t get me wrong. I’m white from a poor background with a lot of student loan debt. I feel your pain. But I’m not interested in fighting other poor people for scraps. Education should be free. We should be asking the wealthy and powerful why they are keeping education and other resources artificially difficult to obtain. Why is education and health care only this expensive in the US compared to other western and developed countries?

duffman ,

you still have a statically better chance

You mean people of my skin color have a statistically better chance. You don’t know me though, or how I was raised or whether or not I had two, one, or zero active parents in my life. Or their income, whether or not we owned a car, had proper access to food. factors like these are what we should be measuring, but today, skin color trumps all to most institutions.

I’m not asking for anything for me. I want people to be treated fairly. I want systematic means of discrimination destroyed, not constructed. Racism, racial tensions, bigotry are empowered by creating racially targeted policies.

No objection to your points on the ultra wealthy.

FinnFooted , (edited )

You’re right. I don’t know you. I assumed you aren’t black due to context. Perhaps you are native, but that’s the only group that is statistically less likely to have upward mobility compared to black people. But I haven’t really made any other assumptions other than you’re probably not part of a group getting race based scholarships thus you are part of a group statistically more likely to have more upward mobility than groups that do get race based scholarships. I think that’s a fair contextual assumption. And I don’t feel like playing the oppression Olympics with you, I just was trying to explain my position and that I have no benefit in defending affirmative action.

People should be treated fairly. We agree there. But, they aren’t right now. The bonus that certain groups get in admissions is to counterbalance more impactful lost opportunities they had earlier in life. And, until we address those, the counterbalance is necessary. But, you don’t seem to actually care about people being treated fairly at all stages. You only seem to care about people being treated fairly at stages that may give others opportunities you don’t have.

Because, if you actually cared about the root of the issue then your argument wouldn’t be focused on anti-affirmative action but realistically on creating a system that is equal from birth to death for all of us. Instead, you play into the desires of the ultra wealthy which is to create race based animosity to prevent either group from working together. Instead of arguing to lift others up so they don’t need affirmative action in the first place, you decide to squabble over peanuts in the dirt with over some false perception that someone else might be getting a few more crumbs than you.

uniqueid198x ,

You’re completley correct. We should balance the system so that admissions allow more people of color and first-in-family admissions, instead of preferencing legacies so much

Hazdaz ,

Better yet, base it on merit.

LiquorFan ,

Better yet, expand universities and allow everybody in.

DarthBueller ,

Or teach critical thinking in grade and trade schools. The fact that critical thinking skills are scoffed at as being “elitist” is an intentional devolution of our culture.

JohnDClay ,

How do you decide what majors people should be allowed to take? If money was no object, there would be many many more liberal arts type majors that don’t directly contribute monetarily to society nearly as much as other professions.

Jaderick ,

Doing what’s good for you and others is often very different from doing what’s good monetarily.

JohnDClay ,

The monetary side helps match people where they’re most needed. (Not exactly because capitalism is broken in some ways, but approximately) If education and money were entirely decoupled, there would be less of a way to get people where they’re needed. Raising income wouldn’t help much since you wouldn’t need to think about that when choosing a major.

Distributing skilled labor to where it’s needed is still good for others too. I agree money and morality aren’t correlated, but it can help guide in the useful direction. I think there needs to be a balance between allowing people to do whatever they want and encouraging them to do what’s needed.

Here’s some more info on problems you can have with colleges. youtube.com/watch?v=Rqv0nuP4OAU

LiquorFan ,

In my country university is free, some have a test you have to pass because there are so many people that want to go, but those are law and medicine. And most people drop out in the first year.

Otherwise it’s not really an issue.

JohnDClay ,

Dropping out seems like an issue, as you’re paying for someone who isn’t going to benefit very much from it. Most people overall, or most people in those majors?

LiquorFan ,

I think most people in those mayors drop out, not overall. My guess is that people know you can make a lot of money there but then realize they don’t actually like it.

I don’t think it’s a big issue though, some public money might be “wasted”, but you give everyone a chance which find perfectly acce.

uniqueid198x ,

What is merit? How do you measure it?

Hazdaz ,

You know what ISN’T merit? …simply being born part of some special group that gets preferential treatment based on the most meaningless of things.

Merit could be anything from HS grades to SAT scores or placement in various scholarly competitions. Income level should be mixed in there as well.

Do we want to live in an equitable world? Then stop dividing people over stupid shit.

IcedCoffeeBitch ,

You do realize the things you mentioned as ways to evaluate merit have been shown to be biased against poor people and POCs, right?

I don’t disagree with you on principle, hell I personally think giving entrance advantage to POCs was a band-aid solution to the discrimination POCs usually face. But simply saying “just evaluate based on merit” ignores the fact that for that to happen, the entire system must be reformed.

uniqueid198x ,

being born rich isn’t merit either, but it has lasting inpacts on HS grades, SAT scores, and placement in scholarly competitions. How do you propose to ensure schools aren’t full of people who just bought their way in?

arcrust ,

Agreed.

And we should give extra points to people who grew up in disadvantaged situations but still had decent grades. A ‘C’ in AP History by someone working a job in high school, is just as good as someone who got an ‘A’ And didn’t have to work.

Merit isn’t just a good GPA. It takes into account all of the things that made it some more difficult for a person. Getting a decent score on an SAT exam when you went to a shit school, should be able to get you into a good college. But the reality is someone who lived in a zip code with better schools is more likely to get into that college purely by where they grew up. And you tend to grow up in a good neighborhood if you’re parents were well off or had a degree themselves.

Purely looking at grades and scores is bad. Unfortunately, people of color tend (not always) be from worse neighborhoods. They tend to have a lot of disadvantages when it comes to getting good grades and good scores. Affirmative action is/was supposed to break the cycle. It’s supposed to help give a little more merit to the situations surrounding grades Ultimately, it’s supposed to diversify the nicer neighborhoods.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Do achievements under tougher conditions not have merit?

Redex68 ,

I never thought of it this way, that’s a pretty good interpretation.

JohnDClay ,

An issue is that lower income areas often have less focus on things like test taking skills, so genuine ability is really hard to distinguish from test taking practice.

Also, schools in lower income areas often aren’t nearly as good, forcing a cycle of poverty since they can’t get into college very easily at all.

phillaholic ,

We will be re-learning this lesson for the next fifty years along with why the voting rights act was necessary.

dhork ,

This is one of my least favorite Rush songs…

Thorny_Thicket ,

Life is and will always be unfair

FinnFooted ,

What a great way to justify never improving things.

SomeAmateur ,

It’s not so much NEVER improving things so much as not letting the quest for perfection get in the way of steps in the right direction.

If a fictional city went from a mediocre tuition based college to a fantastic one that was free to students that live in the city, previous students might wish their schooling was free when they were there. It isn’t fair. But it’s also a big improvement for the future and worth doing.

Jaderick ,

This is more nuanced response to the “Life in unfair” retort that the people who often use that phrase do not mean lol.

E.g. the people suing the Biden administration for student loan forgiveness

Thorny_Thicket ,

Didn’t say that

hikaru755 ,

So what? This is not about creating an absolutely fair world, it’s about improving heavily unfair systems.

JohnDClay ,

So let’s make it less so?

vzq ,

Says the guy hoarding all the apples.

Thorny_Thicket ,

I work at a construction

vzq ,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figurative_analogy

ssboomman ,

And so we should never try to address any inequalities ever. Case closed!

Fucking moron.

Thorny_Thicket ,

You said that.

Gxost ,

The Justice pic: a man yells at the kids stealing apples from his garden, while the kids are running away, loosing all the apples.

5in1k ,

Putting supports on trees weakens them. The swaying makes them stronger.

Ricaz ,
@Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

Handicapped people might disagree

5in1k ,

Trees aren’t handicapped people. They’re trees.

Cjwii ,

Holy in shit, I better… I just need to go. Now. Unrelated…

Ricaz ,
@Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

I rest my case

FinnFooted ,

you know this infographic isn’t literally talking about trees, right?

Denvil ,

It’s talking about children robbing a disabled person for their apples?

Ricaz ,
@Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

That must be it

5in1k ,

I do but the last one says it’s fixing the system when it’s propping up the tree and making it weak. Bad metaphor.

GBU_28 ,

Big, if true

echodot ,

What do you mean?

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

They mean they benefit from the way things currently work, so the mere suggestion that the system needs to change in order for others to benefit too makes them so anxious they need to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to justify to themsleves why the idea is "no good"

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

I get you're coming from a good place, but we're disabled, not handicapped

Ricaz ,
@Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

Just a language thing, sorry. In my country this word does not have any negative connotation.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

I think it's much more likely that it does have negative connotations (especially since the etymology of the word itself is negative, there is no way around that. Never mind the stigma it carries), but no one has pointed it out to you until this point.

But now you know, and since language matters, please just say the word and in future call us what we are - disabled people.

Ricaz ,
@Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

I genuinely have multiple friends who use that word about themselves. It isn’t negative unless people perceive so.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

First of all, thanks for proving you've not bothered reading any of the information I linked, because it clearly states otherwise:

So King Henry VII passed some landmark legislation. He proclaimed that begging in the streets be legal for people with disabilities. So into the streets, with their “cap in hand”, went King Henry’s disabled veterans, to beg for money”. So with cap in hand referred to beggars, or people of no value in society.
The term is also used in horseracing and wagering. It measures the superiority of one contestant over another. This is the belief that one participant is stronger or better than another. The word “handicap” is rating one thing better or worse than another.
It appears that “handicapped” seems to have begun to describe a wide range of disadvantages, including social, economic and even moral standards. The website by Arika Okrent (2015) reports: “Handicap began to be applied to physical and mental differences in the early 1900s, when the new fields of sociology and social work started looking at people in terms of their place in society as a whole”. The term was used to describe people viewed as physically or mentally flawed.

Second of all, disabled people reclaiming a word for themselves, no matter how friendly you are with them, still doesn't give you the right to use it to describe the rest of us (or at all except for if your friends specifically asked you to, and I'd honestly consider whether they actually want to be called that, or that they know that you would react as badly as you are here, so don't bother to correct you because they have better things to spend their energy on than educating a "friend" who would use them as debate tools to prove how not ableist you are. Hint: doing that is ableist), just like you don't go around using the N word or the F and T slurs, all of which have been reclaimed by their own community but are still derogatory when used by outsiders.

So like I told that other person:
you can choose to be respectful and make the tiniest adjustment to your vocabulary, or you can choose to continue to use a harmful term despite now knowing full well that it is harmful, proving to me and others just how little of a shit you give about disabled people.

I've done my part, the choice is yours, and you're clearly choosing to prioritise your own ego over respecting disabled people on the most basic level.

Which I guess only leaves me feeling sorry for your "friends" (or should I say tokens?)

Ricaz ,
@Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

My point is that words are part of languages which change very fluidly, and you could make the same argument for hundreds of other words.

If the word isn’t considered bad by anyone hearing it or anyone it describes, nothing is wrong with it. Many meanings are different between your language and mine, even though they sound alike or share some etymology.

whats_a_refoogee ,

You can’t criticize people for using the word handicapped after it has been pushed as the politically correct word for decades.

It’s still the mainstream politically correct word in the English speaking West. Using disabled can land you in hot water in a professional or political environment.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

That's a pile of bullshit so big it could only come from an abled person who hasn't spent a second of their life listening to actual disabled people.

So I can, and I will.

And people can then choose to be respectful and make the tiniest adjustment to their vocabulary, or they can choose to continue to use a harmful term despite now knowing full well that it is harmful, proving to others just how little of a shit they give about disabled people.

The choice is yours.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Ha, I didn’t even notice those. So many memes straight up are shitty for one reason or other.

Hazdaz ,

Putting supports on trees weakens them.

Just like giving free hand-outs to people.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

GIviNG FoOD to HUnGry pEople Makes thEm weakeR

Hazdaz ,

Give a man to fish feed him for a day… teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime.

People like you want to keep a group of people endlessly indebted, while the rest of us want that group to stand on their own.

FinnFooted ,

The people in the infographic are literally working for their own food.

redballooon ,

Infographic is a strong word for this meme

FinnFooted ,

Semantics.

imPastaSyndrome ,

Stand on your own, they say to the starving person, put some effort into your appearance they say to the homeless person, just stop being so miserable they say to the depressed person

Hazdaz ,

And those people who get themselves out of poverty almost universally state that building a work ethic and an ability to stand on their own is how they got to where they were, not through endless hand-outs and being coddled. Dependency is just like any other addiction and some people rather see these people endlessly fail than actually try to help them move up in the world and make it on their own.

You are an enabler, plain and simple.

Rom ,

Okay cool, so let’s raise wages so everyone can afford to buy their own food.

Hazdaz ,

Let’s just give everyone a million dollars because money is clearly an infinite resource!1!!! Brilliant! /s

MajorHavoc ,

The apples in the picture are jobs that pay enough for food and a house within a daily commute of that job.

Not everyone has access to that. That access is necessary before the Teaching aspect can be effective. Teaching only works if the lesson is usable with the resources available.

The ladders are teaching programs tailored to the resources available in that community.

The adjusted tree is updated communities with better resources - better transit, better grocery availability, better childcare options, better school options, better medical options.

This has been “Children’s books explained in painful detail.” Tune in next time for Goodnight Moon. I’m joking. I don’t know that the heck goodnight moon is about.

Asafum ,

Give me a break. There are no solutions put forward by people that argue against welfare other than “bootstraps.” Or even worse “let the weak die.” It has nothing to do with helping people grow. Hell even when solutions focused on growth are put forward to help growth in new environments (training coal miners to do different work for example) the arguments become something about heritage or family history in mining. It always seems like it’s opposition for the sake of opposition.

The main argument against welfare always seems to stem from a desire to have less taxation as they believe welfare support is stealing from them. A.k.a being selfish. There is never any thought about what to do to help those in need.

darcy ,
@darcy@sh.itjust.works avatar

anarcho primitavism: climb tree oo oo aa aa

lowleveldata ,

Key takeaway: Always blame the system

mathemachristian ,

Why do we need a different word for equal access to resources? There are different types of equalities, equity in my mind is the difference between what’s owned minus what’s owed.

nxfsi ,

Capitalism: hire an apple picking expert to pick the apples and sell them at exorbitant prices because there is a monopoly on apples.

Communism: send the apple picking expert to work in the steel factory and get a random university professor to pick them instead

Hamartiogonic , (edited )
@Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz avatar

Feudalism: A lord owns the land and the trees growing in it. He has a bunch of peasants who will pick the apples for him. The lord gets all the apples and the peasants are allowed to live on his lands another day. Later that night, they go work on their own farms that hopefully give them enough food to keep going. In the long term they’ll probably starve to death or get kicked out of the house they themselves built. I guess living as s hunter-gatherer in the forest isn’t that bad compared to the other alternatives.

nxfsi ,

return to monke

Amilo159 OP ,
@Amilo159@lemmy.world avatar

Nailed the feudalism.

Akagigahara ,

Missed where they had to tithe their crops to the Lord, besidey that, was very good

hellishharlot ,

Communism: send the apple picking expert to work in the steel factory and get a random university professor to pick them instead

Why? He’s an expert in that, if we don’t have steel mill experts we can train willing participants. Experts should always flow to their field of expertise

nxfsi ,

The steel mill experts were purged for saying that sending literally everyone to work on smelting steel is unsustainable.

DarthBueller ,

I love that the commies on here ignore the fact that every communist government to date had to rely on mass purges and persecution to rule and STILL became utterly corrupt and generated an elite ruling class. I’m not saying capitalism is the way, truth, and light, but holy fuck for as smart as the fediverse commies think they are, they are woefully blind to history. At this point, even western european-style socialism is a reach for the US but these guys want a commie revolution? These idiots want blood on the walls and meanwhile I just want my four year old to have a decent future.

Jaderick ,

There’s an argument to be made that some people need a guiding hand when it comes to caring for others or to act in ways that are beneficial for others and themselves, but it seemed like most tankies on Reddit at least were anti-west contrarians. Nominally they were anti-imperialist but always ignored non-western imperialism.

intensely_human ,

Which people need a guiding hand?

Jaderick ,

Sociopaths and the extremely greedy are two groups off the top of my head.

Rom ,

You have no fucking clue what communism is and it shows. Just stop talking.

DarthBueller , (edited )

Instead of being a fucking asshole, why don’t you educate me? Can you point me to a real life example of a vibrant communist state that didn’t need to metaphorically or literally crush people to further the communist purpose? I’m well aware of the ideals of Marxism, the history of workers movements, and the historical reality of Stalin, Mao, the Khmer, etc. So please tell me what I know nothing about.

Rom ,

Why is that my job? You have access to the internet, fucking do it yourself.

whats_a_refoogee ,

Communism is a paradise where everyone gets along and nothing goes wrong. Anything else is not true communism. I just don’t get why that’s so hard to understand.

Rom ,

Obviously communism is when blatant red scare propaganda.

Jaderick ,

Communism, as an American, is everything I don’t like or understand

JohnDClay ,

I think he’s referring to Soviet Russia specifically, where farmers were sent to factories or turned into impromptu pig iron producers because of misguided heavy handed top down policies.

intensely_human ,

Experts should always flow to their area of expertise

That state of affairs is called “free market”.

Amilo159 OP ,
@Amilo159@lemmy.world avatar

No mate, communism is having state managed Apple pickers that pick apples and give them to manager. Management keeps 40% apples for themselves and then divide rest between the whole town, so that everyone in town gets one tiny piece of apple, whether they like apples or not.

Silviecat44 ,

Ew

smeg ,

Every time I see this quaint but misleading image reposted it’s necessary to make the same comment: the words attached to each image are do not exclusively represent those images. “Equality” could apply to all but the first; nobody uses “equity” this way; and most people use “justice” to refer to criminal justice and punishment.

crazycanadianloon ,

It’s an infographic for children…? I think it’s meant to be simple.

I’m sure 18+ people should already have a more nuanced view of what those words mean. And if they don’t I’m sure there are other materials they can peruse to help them understand.

phillaholic ,

Apparently not simply enough for people to understand it’s point here.

whats_a_refoogee ,

The OP comment did not criticize the comic for being too simple. He called it misleading. You’re both arguing with a strawman.

Someone disagreeing with something doesn’t mean they didn’t understand it. It’s a really poisonous mindset that hampers intellectual discourse and development.

phillaholic ,

It’s not misleading. If you can explain it better in an easier way by all means…

uniqueid198x ,

How would you label the different concepts?

Bartsbigbugbag ,

Plenty of people use equity this way. Maybe not in your circles, but it’s not a new definition, it’s been around for decades. Millions of people in the US alone do not equate the criminal Justice system with the concept of Justice. Perhaps you should recognize that your perceptions are not able to be applied to the entire population. If you ever find yourself using “nobody” or “everybody” and you have no definitive data backing that up, I would recommend re-examining your biases, because what you appear to be doing is attempting to normalize your beliefs while otherizing the beliefs of others who do not share your view.

oce ,
@oce@jlai.lu avatar

I wonder if it was written by a non native speaker or a non American because the literal translation in French sounds right.

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