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yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Two years ago when the war started, I predicted that Europe will slide into fascism due to economic problems caused by the proxy war with Russia. People like @poVoq dismissed and ridiculed me, claiming I had no clue what I was talking about and I didn’t understand anything about Europe. Turns out I was right all along.

poVoq ,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

You still don’t have a clue, but I am tired of trying to argue with obvious bad-faith Russian trolls like you.

freagle ,

So what do you think is happening with Italy, Germany, and France all having their far-right parties ascending in national government?

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Everything I said would happen is happening, but you naturally lack the decency to admit that. Libs smearing everyone who points out the basic facts of the situation as Russian trolls is only getting more hilarious by the day.

jsomae ,

Two years ago I said: independent of the war with Russia, Europe will fall into fascism one way or another. Everything I said has come true.

yogthos , (edited )
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Late stage capitalism ultimately devolved into fascism, so I agree that the direction of travel would’ve been the same. The war simply acted as a catalyst that accelerated the process.

jsomae ,

Sure, I can agree with that. Covid had a similar effect.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

yup

floofloof ,

Fascism continues to sweep the world. Apparently loads of people find it really appealing.

I_am_10_squirrels ,

Is populism a part of fascism? Seems like populists tend to be popular during rough times. They give you an “other” to blame, so it’s not your fault.

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

If there was a Venn diagram, populism and nationalism and fascism all overlap beautifully.

I worry for my kids. I’m doing the best I can to keep the anger out of their hearts but Jesus Christ the world is so angry right now and they don’t know where to put it.

Rough times ahead and strongly recommend everyone keep those you care about close.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

So using your galaxy brain logic, populist movements like MAS in Bolivia are fascist?

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

Do you even math bro? Look up Venn Diagram examples.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Bro, English is not math, and your statement is not a diagram, so people are left to interpret the meaning of it. If you weren’t trying to imply that populism and fascism are closely related when you said they overlap beautifully, then why bring it up at all?

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

www.cuemath.com/algebra/venn-diagram/

Look at the example. See how in a Venn diagram they overlap?

I brought it up because the 3 overlap pretty consistently. If you have a rabid nationalistic, fascist or populist movement chances are it has symptoms of the other 2.

That is not to say that rampant nationalism means fascist. Populism doesn’t mean fascism to your example.

I can’t believe I have to explain this to someone but here we are.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

I know how Venn diagrams work buddy. I’m pointing out the lack of logic in your argument. Populism and nationalism don’t have much to do with fascism which is a product of liberalism and capitalism. There are plenty of examples where nationalism and populism result in socialist movements, Viet Cong being one prominent example.

This is to say that you don’t actually understand the cause of fascism and its relationship with populism and nationalism.

I can’t believe I have to explain this to someone but here we are.

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

Nazi Germany as an example was a populist and nationalist movement that rose out of the austerity plan from WW1. Yes it is very much linked with fascism.

What we are experiencing in America and Canada right now is a rise in populism and nationalism which again is dragging fascism along on its heels. Again, they are all very much tied together.

Beyond that I’m not going to argue with someone with their head up their ass. History has proven again and again that Populism, Nationalism and Fascism are all similar and travel together repeatedly. Do they always? No.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Nazi Germany is an example of what capitalism turns into when it’s in a crisis. What we’re experiencing in US and Canada right now is late stage capitalism that’s making things unlivable for large swaths of the population.

Meanwhile, systematic destruction of socialist movements over the Cold War created a situation where the right is the only option for people who become disillusioned in the mainstream politics. This is also by design because fascism does not fundamentally threaten capitalist interests.

There are indeed some very uncomfortable parallels with the rise of nazism and fascism in Europe before WW2. It’s also worth noting that right wing extremism gets a lot of support from the rich normalizing their views. People like Murdoch and Koch brothers spent billions promoting right wing views in the media, and we have right wing groups quietly doing the same thing here with Postmedia. Even Toronto Star was recently acquired by a right wing group.

It’s also dangerous to think that such right wing movement can be stopped simply by voting. German nazis never won more than 37% of the vote while there were still democratic elections in place. Once these people get in power the mask comes off. Republicans were seriously considering similar tactics during last elections, and I’m sure we’ll see that happen again going forward.

First chapter in this discusses the rise of fascists in Italy and nazis in Germany, and it’s hard not to draw parallels with what we’re seeing currently happen in US and Canada:

After World War I, Italy had settled into a pattern of parliamen­tary democracy. The low pay scales were improving, and the trains were already running on time. But the capitalist economy was in a postwar recession. Investments stagnated, heavy industry operated far below capacity, and corporate profits and agribusiness exports were declining.

To maintain profit levels, the large landowners and industrialists would have to slash wages and raise prices. The state in turn would have to provide them with massive subsidies and tax exemptions. To finance this corporate welfarism, the populace would have to be taxed more heavily, and social services and welfare expenditures would have to be drastically cut - measures that might sound familiar to us today. But the government was not completely free to pursue this course. By 1921 , many Italian workers and peasants were unionized and had their own political organizations. With demonstrations, strikes, boy­cotts, factory takeovers, and the forceable occupation of farmlands, they had won the right to organize, along with concessions in wages and work conditions.

To impose a full measure of austerity upon workers and peasants, the ruling economic interests would have to abolish the democratic rights that helped the masses defend their modest living standards. The solution was to smash their unions, political organizations, and civil liberties. Industrialists and big landowners wanted someone at the helm who could break the power of organized workers and farm laborers and impose a stern order on the masses. For this task Benito Mussolini, armed with his gangs of Blackshirts, seemed the likely candidate.

In 1922, the Federazione Industriale, composed of the leaders of industry, along with representatives from the banking and agribusi­ness associations, met with Mussolini to plan the “March on Rome,” contributing 20 million lire to the undertaking. With the additional backing of Italy’s top military officers and police chiefs, the fascist “revolution”- really a coup d’etat - took place.

In Germany, a similar pattern of complicity between fascists and capitalists emerged. German workers and farm laborers had won the right to unionize, the eight-hour day, and unemployment insurance. But to revive profit levels, heavy industry and big finance wanted wage cuts for their workers and massive state subsidies and tax cuts for themselves.

During the 1920s, the Nazi Sturmabteilung or SA, the brown­ shirted storm troopers, subsidized by business, were used mostly as an antilabor paramilitary force whose function was to terrorize workers and farm laborers. By 1930, most of the tycoons had con­cluded that the Weimar Republic no longer served their needs and was too accommodating to the working class. They greatly increased their subsidies to Hitler, propelling the Nazi party onto the national stage. Business tycoons supplied the Nazis with gener­ous funds for fleets of motor cars and loudspeakers to saturate the cities and villages of Germany, along with funds for Nazi party organizations, youth groups, and paramilitary forces. In the July 1932 campaign, Hitler had sufficient funds to fly to fifty cities in the last two weeks alone.

In that same campaign the Nazis received 37.3 percent of the vote, the highest they ever won in a democratic national election. They never had a majority of the people on their side. To the extent that they had any kind of reliable base, it generally was among the more affluent members of society. In addition, elements of the petty bour­geoisie and many lumpenproletariats served as strong-arm party thugs, organized into the SA storm troopers. But the great majority of the organized working class supported the Communists or Social Democrats to the very end.

Beyond that I’m not going to argue with someone with their head up their ass. History has proven again and again that liberals are absolutely clueless historically and politically.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Populism is just democracy. Liberals love to use this term to discredit the will of the masses because they don’t believe in actual democracy.

sanguinepar ,
@sanguinepar@lemmy.world avatar

France, have you lost your minds?

Dremor ,
@Dremor@lemmy.world avatar

Macron sure did, but I can’t talk for the rest of the population.

Valmond ,

Yeah french presidents have been able to get elected in those “best of two” presidential elections (you vote twice, the second round is the top two from the first, so very easy to manipulate) by helping the far right getting into the second place (started with Chirac or even earlier) so you only have one reasonable choice (Democracy vs not).

People got fed up with it, got numb to it, and also the far right have become more of a populistic party too (on the outside at least).

It doesn’t help Macron seems to believe he’s some sort of rightful heir after those shenanigans too and just brutally impose what he wants without taking into account what the people want (there have been massive strikes and protests, even by french standards, to absolutely no avail).

Sigh.

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

so you only have one reasonable choice (Democracy vs not).

If it comes to that choice, it’s already not a democracy, especially if that is the election tactics from liberals/centrist/moderates/whateverelsethefashenablerscallthemselves.

Hegar ,

If it's a nation state, it's already not a democracy.

The idea that choosing which particular rich people sit in a fancy building is somehow democracy is quite funny.

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