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Churbleyimyam ,

As a non-american it gives me an innocent and sincere joy to see Bernie Sanders being celebrated. Keep that integrity alive you crazy BAMFs.

pulaskiwasright ,

To me, Bernie proved that there can be no positive change in the US via voting. When Bernie was looking strong, the democrats and the news media did everything they could to stop him and they succeeded. They were willing to do it even though the polling numbers showed that Hillary was the only legitimate primary candidate who couldn’t beat Trump. They wanted Bernie out no matter what because he represented the positive change that would hurt the ruling class just a little.

bradorsomething ,

Good with Judaism but fuck the Israeli state. Don’t let people try to confuse the two.

The Holocaust is real, stop trying to cosplay it in Gaza.

LoveSausage ,

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/1f82e97e-f843-42bf-a8fb-63be275cd57e.jpeg

LoveSausage ,

Wow 20 downvotes lol , are you saying he did not say this or are you just mad I pointed it out?

pan_troglodytes ,

Bernie’s retiring from politics then?

index ,

Then why does he keep give nickels to political parties supporting it?

mods_are_assholes ,

Imagine if we had elected this beautiful bastard back in 2016.

TheSlad ,

One can dream

TechNerdWizard42 ,

World would be so much better off

Shenanigore ,

Too bad the primary really was rigged

mods_are_assholes ,

Fucking tell me about it, I was living in florida at the time

ComicalMayhem ,

I keep seeing people say this. where can I find more information on the subject?

laverabe ,

In November 2017, Brazile said in her book and related interviews that the Clinton campaign and the DNC had colluded ‘unethically’ by giving the Clinton campaign control over the DNC’s personnel and press releases before the primary in return for funding to eliminate the DNC’s remaining debt from 2012 campaign,

wikipedia.org/…/2016_Democratic_Party_presidentia…

Tinidril ,

We need a national movement to take the primaries out of the hands of the parties and run them like regular elections. Even better would be rank choice voting so we are no longer stuck with the two choices the wealthy give us.

Shenanigore ,

Maybe a national movement for a viable third party.

Tinidril ,

Tried and failed, over and over and over and over again, but sure, I’m sure it will end differently this time.

If we could get enough voter cooperation to replace one of the major parties, any strategy would work. If we can’t then going third party is the worst possibile strategy.

Shenanigore ,

Things do change if people try.

Tinidril ,

Oh, definitely. I’m not critiquing “optimism”, just a particular strategy. There is no advantage that exists in a third party strategy that doesn’t exist in a intra-party strategy, but there are a lot of disadvantages. Until we get rid of first-past-the-post elections, third parties can’t overcome the spoiler effect.

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

Imagine if Gore won.

dwemthy ,
  • if Gore’s win wasn’t stolen by the supreme court
mods_are_assholes ,

I seethed for months over this. Months.

Boomers wonder why the younger generations seem to ‘hate america’.

Well it’s because of bullshit like this. Repugnicunts have hijacked democracy and its roots are in Nixon and we have been forced to grow up under the lie that we are free and represented by our politicians.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Democrats did exactly the same to Bernie in 2016. Leaked emails confirm that the DNC actively conspired against Sanders.

And then Hillary was such a bad candidate that Trump won. Thank the DNC for that one.

Churbleyimyam ,

Similar deal here in the UK with Corbyn, except he was already leader of the party. Destroyed by his own kind. Most politicians accept that the only way into office is to gain control of an existing party. I’m glad for Americans that Bernie Sanders still seems to have some mainstream credibility. Jeremy Corbyn was attacked so hard from all vested interests on all fronts that he has almost become a tragic meme, despite how exceptional he was/is as a figurehead.

dangblingus ,

My parents tried to explain to me why Bush won instead of Gore, and my little kid brain was like “but he won though”

mods_are_assholes ,

That was my first ever presidential election vote, I was so excited to see someone with legit interest in saving the environment, full of hope for a new future. I remember how giddy it felt to step into the booth.

I lived in florida then, the entire state was thrown out by a legit conspiracy.

And it’s jaded my vision of politics ever since.

maness300 , (edited )

Yeah, it’s a big reason why I think civil disobedience is making a comeback.

People are realizing the government doesn’t exist for them; it exists for the ruling class. That’s not how it should work and we don’t have to play by the rules they make for us.

Scavenger_Solardaddy ,

Full of invasive species, Florida man, woman, fucking craziness all around with zero hope. I’m glad i wasn’t born there.

dRLY ,

Too bad he was vocally pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian liberation up until now. Ready to blindly believe the lies about the 40 babies, and somehow that Israel is allowed continued support every year with our money. Dude has lost all my support ever since bowing to Dems both times and not fighting. He allowed Dems to get what they wanted and all of us are assholes for not fucking around about withholding votes. Bernie got people excited about real change, and then allowed the very establishment we need removed to bring it to a hard stop (like always). Fuck him and his masters that enabled Israel’s decades and decades of planned genocide started with the colonization of Palestine by Zionists! He is just doing what all the Dems do, good quotes/speeches and nothing changed.

homura1650 ,

What more do you want him to do? Politics moves on the margins, and Sanders is now and for as long as I can remember been one of the most Israel critical politicians both in terms of rhetoric and voting history. He is not a king; he is 1% of 1 chamber of the legislative branch of a country that has a lot of issues to deal with.

mods_are_assholes ,

fuck off forum slider, your comment reads like AI schizophrenia.

CountryBreakfast ,
@CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Bernie is a Zionist.

Cethin ,

He’s a jew who also worked in Israel for a few years when he was younger. He’s also one of the most critical voices of Israel in America. He’s not a Zionist. Being accepting of Israel as a concept (while it’s not ideal how it exists at all) doesn’t make you a Zionist. A Zionist must want to take over the territory and make it a place for Jews exclusively.

CountryBreakfast ,
@CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml avatar

He is a Zionist and engages in partisan discourse within zionism. He is only critical of who is empowering the Zionist state. He still supports the project, and you agree he does. Being accepting of it absolutely makes him a Zionist. Isreal does not have the right to exist.

Cethin ,

No country has a “right” to exist. They just do. Yes, Israel was created under bad pretenses, but that’s true for basically every nation. It doesn’t prevent them from being better than they started, though Israel is only doing worse for the most part.

dangblingus ,

Futuristic city meme

Phegan ,

Or 2020

Empricorn ,

This Jewish man must be an antisemite! It’s the only explanation…

Tronn4 ,

There is a hamas tunnel under him /s

Scavenger_Solardaddy ,

I love hummus with olive oil flowing in the tunnels! https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/43775e92-e9cd-4fa3-8119-b008f6d86e9b.jpeg

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

https://y.yarn.co/4722f9c5-b75e-4371-838f-a7f605506e14_text.gif

Shenanigore ,

I can’t believe how much Larry David hates jews.

CanadaPlus ,

He clearly hates Jews. /s

MTK ,

To be fair hating the Israeli goverment is a very jewish thing statisticaly

RealJoL ,

Probably a majority of Israelis hate the Israeli government.

CanadaPlus ,

The caveat is that they don’t all want a better alternative, and some want a worse alternative, because they’re in a blind trauma spiral.

Shenanigore ,

Most jews do, near as i can tell

CanadaPlus ,

2edgy4me

Shenanigore ,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

Who replaces Netanyahu? The crimes of Israel are not all rooted in one man.

inclementimmigrant ,

The crimes of Donald Trump were not rooted in one man either but getting rid of one major malignant tumor does help things along.

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

His replacement is (like the one he replaced) one of the most unpopular presidents in modern history, and is actively aiding the genocidal Netanyahu government.

WildlyCanadian ,
@WildlyCanadian@lemmy.ca avatar

Can we all agree there was no good option in the Biden/Trump election?

pivot_root ,

His replacement is (like the one he replaced) one of the most unpopular presidents in modern history

Biden: Unpopular
Trump: ???
Obama: Unpopular

And you get your facts from FOX News, right?

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

The one he(Biden) replaced, who was also record-breakingly unpopular, was Trump. Not sure how you managed to shoehorn Obama into this.

pivot_root ,

My apologies. I misinterpret the “he” as Trump.

CooperRedArmyDog ,

did it though, nothing has really changed sense his presidency has ended and arguably it has all gotten worse, all be it at a SLIGHTLY less breakneck pace. Not only that but his popularity never weigned and he is poiesed to come back, and I will be honest as much as I do not want trump to come back I would be a fool to say I did not expect him to win the election in 2024.

So no, temporarily removing him did basicly nothing, except allow feckless liberals to go to brunch and ignore everything that is going on in the world

winky9827b ,

Cancer is prone to relapse.

CooperRedArmyDog ,

Im saying he isnt the cancer, heck he isn’t all that different from biden except he says the stuff he is not suposed to say, The cancer is capitalism, the fact we let society get this bad,

pivot_root ,

Do you have a better socioeconomic ideology to propose?

Anarchy can’t work on a large scale.

Communism was tried and tested, and it resulted in a dictatorship (North Korea), a “democratic” country ruled by a man whose opposition mysteriously keeps falling out of windows (Russia), or a capitalist society with eroded human rights that still calls itself communist (China).

The best option, in my opinion, is to keep what works but tax the fuck out of the rich and corporations and use their money to provide services to the less fortunate. But, thanks to decades of propaganda, half the country refuses to support that idea because socialism = communism = bad.

CooperRedArmyDog ,

North Korea is not a dictatorship, all information coming out of it is either one video about a hair cut (very good documentary www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO83Ig-E8) or sources all trace back to the CIA… Russia is very much a capitalist oligarchy that got erodied from the golory days of the USSR by the CIA, and China is communist and has better human rights than the United states, Have you even read their constitution or foundational documents.

Second I hate to say this but Communism IS socialism, or atleast from all the origional texts, more precicely Socialism is now used as the lower form of communism, before we get rid of states and money. so yes I do have a better socieo economic ideology, its Communism, and we put the rich to the wall,

Also lets look here at Cuba 0 homeless, one of the higest life expectencies, the higest literacy rate, one of the most flurishing democratic participations in the world, and the best protection of minority rights anywhere in the world, all done while under a genocidal blocade of the US. and they still find time to send doctors all around the globe. I would call this a sucsess. and what ever the US is doing a monumental falure.

OldWoodFrame ,

It would take quite an argument for me to believe things are worse now than November of 2020.

CooperRedArmyDog ,

Abortion is now illegal in many States, we have a potential civil war, with several states in a stand off with the federal government over weather or not death traps can be put in the rio grand, instead of actually doing didily squat about it our lovely president has sat their with his thumb up his ass and just let it happen, the wall is still going up, we are having more deportations than we ever did under trump, and also more kids in cages, really the only difrence on the imigration front the only difrence is its more effective, quieter, and they use nicer words,

Oh and the special council investigating the president all but said he would not indite soly because of dementia.

Oh and the genocide in Isreal got worse

OldWoodFrame ,

November 2020 was pre Covid vaccine. The election denial that started that month led to an actual insurrection, not just the cowboy fantasy of Texas pushing back on a court ruling.

US GDP is 15%+ higher today, the S&P500 is up like 40%, unemployment is 3.7% instead of 6.7%, we have an infrastructure investment plan actively fixing bridges and building tunnels, we are in progress to reduce carbon emissions to 40% below 2005 levels due to the IRA. There was a bipartisan gun control law passed. Things just are better.

brain_in_a_box ,

US GDP is 15%+ higher today, the S&P500 is up like 40%. Things just are better.

How could things not be better, the line has gone up!

OldWoodFrame ,

Make your argument that the economy is worse now than in November 2020, I’ll wait.

brain_in_a_box ,

For the average person, the cost of housing and basic needs has risen faster than wages.

underisk , (edited )
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

unemployment is 3.7% instead of 6.7%

this is literally just from him ending covid restrictions. getting us to the same exact point Trump had us at before the pandemic by just pretending its over is not exactly a great endorsement of his presidency.

OldWoodFrame ,

The covid restrictions are gone, that’s better. In spite of all predictions there has been no recession over 4 years and unemployment has stayed low the entire presidency. That’s better. I literally don’t know what more you could want in the metrics of unemployment and covid restrictions.

underisk , (edited )
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

The covid restrictions being gone is only better if covid is gone. Unemployment hasn’t “stayed low the entire presidency” it was one of the highest it’s ever been and only got to this point over the course of two years. If we didn’t get enough of a recession to meet your standard for calling it that, we at the very least got close enough to spark a huge national debate in the media about what constitutes a recession.

As for covid restrictions, you could at least reinstate a mask mandate or hell even just a recommendation, even if only during outbreaks. And I’m not giving him credit for making unemployment the exact same as his predecessor when he didn’t do anything for unemployment that wouldn’t have happened anyway, under any president.

OldWoodFrame ,

The covid restrictions being gone is only better if covid is gone.

That’s an impossible bar to clear, the next best thing is vaccines so prevalent that covid numbers stop surging and get down to manageable levels. That is what happened, since November of 2020.

Employment hasn’t “stayed low the entire presidency” it was one of the highest it’s ever been and only got to this point over the course of two years.

Bidens presidency started January 2021, unemployment at 6.4%. By the end of the year it was at 3.9%. And it has been steady between 3.5% and 4% ever since.

If we didn’t get enough of a recession to meet your standard for calling it that, we at the very least got close enough to spark a huge national debate in the media about what constitutes a recession.

We didn’t meet the US definition. The NBER decides, and they say there wasn’t a recession. You are 100% right that the media and political figures were were talking about an impending recession the entire time, and it never happened. That is a good thing.

underisk , (edited )
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

the next best thing is vaccines so prevalent that covid numbers stop surging and get down to manageable levels.

Then you should credit Donald Trump for that because he’s the guy who expedited the vaccine. He stopped claiming credit for it when his base booed him every time he brought it up. Nevermind that there have been multiple periodic surges since lockdown was ended.

Bidens presidency started January 2021, unemployment at 6.4%. By the end of the year it was at 3.9%. And it has been steady between 3.5% and 4% ever since.

This is incredibly disingenuous. It started high because of lockdown and only reached pre-pandemic levels after 2 years. I will not give him credit for something literally anyone sitting in that position, even Trump, would have eventually done. It was not some victory of labor policy, all he did was end lockdown.

We didn’t meet the US definition. The NBER decides, and they say there wasn’t a recession.

Barely scraping under some threshold that the US arbitrarily decides is more forgiving for them than the rest of the world is not some huge accomplishment you should be touting. Treating a recession like some binary on/off switch is absurd.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

Roe vs. Wade was still in effect in 2020. Of course, it being struck down was a consequence of things that happened before 2020 (mostly during Trump’s term, but Obama bending over for McConnell didn’t help matters) so that doesn’t really count.

PowerCrazy ,

Pretty sure you are comparing finacial fraud to genocide, maybe don’t do that.

dangblingus ,

Donald Trump is guilty of far more than just garden variety fraud. During his 4 long years, did you not watch the news?

PowerCrazy ,

But not genocide nor enabling genocide.

goferking0 ,

True but the difference here is the parliament keeps putting him back in power

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah, I wonder what Sanders would do if it were up to him. Netanyahu is part of the problem but it’s so much bigger than him, especially after all the years he’s been in power influencing things.

OldWoodFrame ,

Probably Benny Gantz.

The key benefit of the replacement being anyone who is not Netanyahu is that Netanyahu knows he is going to lose the next election and probably be arrested for prior crimes, so he personally has reason to keep the conflict going as long as possible.

dRLY ,

Facts! If Netanyahu is removed, it will just be like the US where the next guy is still evil but just lesser.

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

Not even lesser, there’s always a chance that a more extreme person/system replaces them.

sharkfucker420 ,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

Glad he’s coming around

homura1650 ,

Coming around? When was he on the wrong side of this issue?

His October 10 statement includes:

Right now, the international community must focus on reducing humanitarian suffering and protecting innocent people on both sides of this conflict. The targeting of civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it. Israel’s blanket denial of food, water, and other necessities to Gaza is a serious violation of international law and will do nothing but harm innocent civilians. The United States has rightly offered solidarity and support to Israel in responding to Hamas’ attack. But we must also insist on restraint from Israeli forces attacking Gaza and work to secure UN humanitarian access. Let us not forget that half of the two million people in Gaza are children. Children and innocent people do not deserve to be punished for the acts of Hamas.

October 10. 3 days after the initial attack.

Back in January he tried conditioning aid to Israel and requiring the state department to issue human rights report on their conducts.

Soulg ,

He never was. But he didn’t say the exact thing that people wanted him to, which is a mortal sin

sharkfucker420 ,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

The Palestinian conflict did not start on Oct 7th it’s been happening for decades now. Specifically my gripes are with “The United States has rightly offered solidarity and support to Israel in responding to Hamas’ attack. But we must also insist on restraint from Israeli forces attacking Gaza and work to secure UN humanitarian access.” I do not agree that any support should have been given period, Israel has been a genocidal Zionist entity for a long time now and Sanders is well aware of this I’m certain. I’m also frustrated by his request for restraint as if anything other than the dismantling of the Israeli state could possibly suffice.

He is also a proponent of the two state solution which is inherently sympathetic to the settler colonial state.

I’m glad he is wants the genocide to stop but conditional fucking Israeli aid is not the way to do that. They should not be aided. Was it wise to aid apartheid South africa through continued trade relations? Was it right to vilify Mandela as a terrorist? Of course not, we can look back on these actions and see how wrong they were because we know what came to be. So why are we doing it again?

Yes obviously apartheid South Africa and the current palestinian genocide are not a flawless comparison but they are similar enough.

Essentially my point is that he has been much too sympathetic towards Israel for a while. Sure he’s probably one of the most radical politicians we have on this issue but I find that to be incredibly disheartening.

Hadriscus ,

Why is the two-state solution inherently sympathetic to the settler colonial state ?

sharkfucker420 ,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

The settlers never should have been there in the first place. It isn’t their land and never was. They arrived touting violence and have not ceased. A two state solution validates their self professed “right to the land” and allows for eventual further expansion of the settler colonial state some time in the future should we not keep constant surveillance and management on the proposed Israeli state.

In addition, a single state solution does not necessarily require the forceful expulsion of every settler. It is not inherently violent or oppressive either. In apartheid South Africa many settlers left of their own volition once their privileged status had dissolved.

dangblingus ,

The problem with Israel is that there is no legal way to remove them from the area. There is no ethical way to condone their treatment of Palestinians either, and the US needs to remain on good terms with Israel to keep the American hegemony strong. Sanders cannot change these things. The only hope for any shred of peace in the Holy Land is to revert back to some semblance of a two-state solution similar to the original 1948 map. England and the UN royally fucked the Palestinians in the 40s and now the chickens have finally, in 2024, come home to roost.

sharkfucker420 , (edited )
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

Sanders cannot change the value Israel has to the US but at the very least he could advocate for a ceasefire which he doesn’t think is possible with a “terrorist organization that is dedicated to perpetual war” [source]

If I rolled my eyes any harder they’d rotate completely

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

We are damned.

Breezy ,

If only the DNC could get their shit together, if he was the nomination last election, or the one before, or the one before, the world would be in such a better place.

Corkyskog ,

We could have had Al Gore instead of Bush if the Supreme Court didn’t toss Bush the crown because… reasons

Breezy ,

If only we had AI Gore in the early 00s.

Tumnus ,

We should have! Republicans illegally stole that from us as well

PP_BOY_ ,
@PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

Because SCOTUS decided that it was perfectly fair and valid to have the final vote on who got to he president come down to one of the peoples’ brother and there was absolutely nothing wrong about that

lemmyseizethemeans ,

Because reasons that cannot be used in future jurisprudence due to the extraordinary nature of the, ahem, decision

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

Also, many progressives stayed home or voted for the Green Party. Not that it is more the fault of progressives than SCOTUS, but blame aside, it’s a cautionary tale.

MeowZedong ,
@MeowZedong@lemmygrad.ml avatar

How DARE they vote for the candidate they wanted! They should be maligned!

go_go_gadget ,

I’m missing the part where people are responsible for voting for a bad candidate in the DNC primaries.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

I’m not sure what you mean.

go_go_gadget ,

You’re shaming progressives for staying home, but you aren’t casting judgement at the people who voted for a loser candidate in the primaries.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy. The US has a 2 party FPTP system, not proportional representation. Unlike multi-party parliamentary systems, we usually have to vote for a compromise, not our top choice. If you don’t vote, you don’t “send a message”, you simply forfeit your political power. If Republicans win, and keep winning, then that’s a signal for Democrats to shift right, to try to win back the median voter.

I hate the argumentative strategy of criticizing candidates for being political “losers”. Rightwingers do that all the time. By that logic, progressives also had “loser candidates”, since many fail in the primaries. I personally don’t think Sanders, for example, was a “loser”, even if he lost in the primary.

ShepherdPie ,

We might as well skip all the pomp and circumstance and just assign the votes automatically based on party registration. That’s how it’s done with the added facade of having a “choice.” The Overton window continues to shift to the right regardless of who wins elections because there are power people benefiting from it and it’s incredibly easy to spread propaganda to the masses with tv/radio/internet.

SkepticalButOpenMinded , (edited )

What are you even talking about with your first paragraph? The result of elections aren’t predictable. In fact, they’re less predictable than ever. And what’s with “choice” in quotes: are you an election truther? That’s more of a right wing conspiracy.

That’s a pathetic cowardly take on the Overton window. What even is your point? “Let’s give up because nothing matters”? Fuck that. I’m fighting.

It’s also empirically untrue: I don’t know how you haven’t noticed that the US is going through the biggest labor movement in a generation. In the last 3 years, Dems have passed one of the most progressive agendas in a generation.

ShepherdPie ,

I’m talking about the fact that we keep getting Clinton’s and Bidens as our nominees because that’s what the party leadership wants. They choose who gets the backing, who gets the funding, who gets the airtime, and who gets to debate. The primaries are little more than a sham to give us the illusion of choice because this private organization already picked their winner. You claim elections are less predictable than ever, yet there’s a 100% chance it’s going to be one of two people, either the D or R, who’s going to win, both backed by the same wealthy donors to do their bidding. That’s the illusion of choice.

Your fighting, eh? Well, how’s the fight coming? At what point do you consider the fight won? Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership? Good luck accomplishing that when, as I stated above, there are only two choice on the ballot and one of them is Republican. That kind of solidifies their place in government as they’re the only alternative for people to vote for. That ensures we’ll keep having people like Trump waiting in the wings and taking office every time a Clinton-like candidate runs against them. This also ensures that Democratic candidates don’t actually have to do jack shit for the country as they’re going to get your vote anyway. This is why I stated that elections might as well be automatic based on party registration and why it’s an illusion of choice. You’re not fighting by voting D or R. You’re just perpetuating the status quo.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

If you think Biden’s candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries. Here’s the simple obvious explanation: Biden never lost his nationwide polling lead, not once, during the whole race. Are the polls part of the conspiracy too?

The craziest thing about your conspiracy theory is that it’s flatly contradicted by Trump, who was clearly NOT the establishment choice in 2016. Establishment politicians and media pushed Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, John Kasich, anyone but Trump. They all criticized or downplayed Trump non-stop (for good reason)… and yet he won.

Well, how’s the fight coming?

I’m living through one of the biggest shifts left in politics in a generation. The left/center-left coalition has been surprisingly dominant. Mid-terms, special elections, etc. We keep winning. It’s not perfect, but it’s the right direction. But we need to keep winning elections for a long time for durable change.

At what point do you consider the fight won?

Never. Politics is a continual process, not a destination. If we get complacent, progress dies.

Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership?

No. That’s not even the point. Republicans used to be the progressive party (that’s why they use the color red). Parties don’t matter as much as ideas. The point isn’t for “my team” to win. If Republicans continue losing for a decade, then they will be forced to shift left, just as Dems shifted right after Reagan with Clinton.

go_go_gadget ,

If you think Biden’s candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries.

I feel like you’re asleep now. Even as people sweat the possibility of Biden losing they are claiming Biden had the best chance of anyone running in the primaries to defeat Trump in the general. Let’s dissect that claim for a moment.

That would mean:

  1. There are people who would either vote for Trump, 3rd party or not vote at all in the general election if Biden had not won the primaries.
  2. That population of people must exceed the number of leftists and progressives staying home or voting 3rd party because Biden won the primaries.

Furthermore, this message isn’t being delivered as a political reality backed up by numbers and proof, but rather a promise by moderates. If leftists or progressives did manage to get a candidate through the primaries moderates would abandon all that “vote blue not matter who” stuff immediately and outright fight them in the general election to prove a point.

Apathy, rebellion and anger are rational responses to this experience.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

You’re changing the subject. My claim was about 2020, not 2024. This year, yes, Biden’s candidacy is inevitable. It is almost unheard of to challenge an incumbent president, and Democrats want to avoid an intra-party fight. When Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was a disaster that damaged the party for a long time.

I agree with you that Biden is a weak candidate and there are better candidates. But you made the extreme claim that elections don’t matter, that we have no choice, that shadowy elites choose all the candidates, and other silly conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories don’t become justified just because you’re apathetic and angry. I’m not sure how you think you’re being rebellious. When you don’t vote, that’s not rebellion. No one cares. You don’t matter, politically.

go_go_gadget ,

I was talking about the 2020 primaries as well. Even in retrospect plenty of people still say out of all candidates in the 2020 primaries Biden was the best chance of beating Trump. Then they turn around and try to figure out why so many leftists and progressives are becoming apathetic, angry or voting 3rd party.

go_go_gadget ,

Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy.

Or we do? “We lose regardless. Let’s stay home.”

I’m getting really sick of this inversion of responsibility. Moderates dominate the primaries and elect someone who doesn’t resonate with the leftists and progressives but aren’t responsible for how that candidate does in the general? They control the outcome in the primaries but aren’t responsible for what happens in the general? That makes no sense.

As the majority moderates must take the lions share of the responsibility. Where is that happening?

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@mastodon.social avatar

right

nomous ,

I wonder how the Nader voters feel.

ShepherdPie ,

That argument goes both ways. “Nader would have won if progressives hadn’t handed the election to the Republicans by throwing their votes away on Gore.” Same is true for 2016 with Bernie and Clinton.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

It really doesn’t go both ways. The winning presidential candidate needs to get the most votes, and most US voters are not progressive. They’re moderate, or indifferent.

I don’t know how you could say that about HRC and Sanders. That’s not even a hypothetical: they literally had a head to head match where, to my huge disappointment, HRC won. Protesting HRC helped elect Trump, and obviously that hasn’t been good for progressive interests or democracy.

maness300 ,

Your argument makes no sense.

You acknowledge progressives won’t vote for moderates. But what makes you think moderates won’t vote for progressives if they don’t have a choice?

Do you really believe the people who voted for Clinton wouldn’t have voted for Sanders in the general? If so, then shouldn’t the blame be on them too? If not, then can you admit you’re wrong?

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

I’ve read your comment a few times but I’m having a genuinely hard time parsing your point.

The person I’m responding to was saying that Nader could have won if progressives voted for him instead of Gore. I pointed out that presidential candidates need a broad coalition of voters to get enough votes, not just far left progressives.

You seem to be making a totally different argument. You claim that if Nader was the only choice, then Democratic leaning moderates would have voted for him.

I don’t mean to be rude, but what is the point of this thought experiment? Nader wasn’t the only choice. Moreover, US politics in 2000 was significantly less polarized: MANY Gore voters would have definitely voted for Bush, who campaigned under “compassionate conservatism” and was seen as a moderate, over the farthest left candidate, Nader.

If Sanders had won the nomination, I think he would have kicked ass against Trump, but Sanders sadly lost. I’m trying to understand your last line: are you asking if I would blame HRC supporters for refusing to vote for Sanders in the general and allowing a fascist corrupt dictator in? Uh, yes. Obviously I would blame them. That precisely aligns with everything I’ve said.

ShepherdPie ,

Nah, they reiterated my point pretty well. You can’t claim that “candidate ‘A’ is the correct choice because of their broad appeal” when they wind up losing the election. Obviously, they didn’t have the most appeal. The attitude that “I picked the right person and it’s everyone else’s fault they didn’t win” is absurd. Anybody can make that argument about any candidate and be just as equally ‘correct.’

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

That’s not what you said in the comment I responded to. You claimed that Nader could have won if progressives had voted for him instead of Gore, but there aren’t enough progressive votes.

Voting in a FPTP two party system is a coordination game, one where it is mathematically impossible for third parties to win. Pretending otherwise is sadly delusional.

It’s like you’re trying to decide which building to buy as a group to start co-op housing. Almost everyone prefers building A, but you prefer building B. If you all don’t compromise, then there is not enough money and you’re all homeless. In a democracy, it is obviously more fair if you compromise than everyone else compromises. You either don’t believe in democracy, or you’re happy with things never getting better.

ShepherdPie ,

I said “that argument goes both ways” meaning “my candidate would have won if X, Y, and Z happened” is always valid regardless of the candidate.

You can’t rewrite the past, so you’re inventing a hypothetical/fictional scenario based on your opinion. In a fictional scenario, anything is possible. Your argument was “if more people voted for Gore, he would have won” and I countered with “if more people voted for Nader, he would have won.” You can’t claim Gore was the best choice because the best choice is the one who wins the election.

In a democracy, it is obviously more fair if you compromise than everyone else compromises. You either don’t believe in democracy, or you’re happy with things never getting better.

What a joke. The “you” here is the entire American public while “everyone else” is a small handful of wealthy, powerful individuals.

Can you explain how continuing to elect corporate Democrats makes things better? Are we better now than 10 years ago? Are we better than we were 20 years ago? There’s obviously a quality of life trend here, and it hasn’t trended up in quite a long time. You’ll predictably place the blame solely on Republicans even though Democrats make up 50% of that equation. Republicans sure don’t seem to have the same issue passing their legislation. Why do you think that is?

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

You got 3 upvotes within minutes after you posted on a 2 day old post? And I got 3 downvotes at the same time? You’re pathetic.

ShepherdPie ,

Lmao what does that have to do with me? Upvotes don’t mean anything on lemmy and it’s a bit pathetic to whine about them. And if you think I’m using multiple accounts to downvote you, consider that many people sort by “new comments” here since lemmy doesn’t get the traffic that reddit does.

You ought to change your username though because you’re far from open minded.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

lol Funny how no one else seems to be voting anywhere else in this thread anymore, except minutes after your comment. It’s embarrassing that you’re doubling down. Sociopathic behavior.

It is pointless arguing with someone so devoted to winning an internet debate. Can’t reason with that.

ShepherdPie ,

Sociopathic behavior is sitting and monitoring an entire post’s vote tallies to see how your comment is doing. I literally don’t give two shits about the vote counts. The fact that you’ve abandoned your argument to whine about karma is pretty telling.

SkepticalButOpenMinded ,

Ah yes, the real problem is the person calling you out on your BS. What an honest and productive conversation I’m missing out on!

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

im confused on this, didnt they do like three recounts??

ShepherdPie ,

Recounts only matter if you’re counting all the ballots instead of just the ballots you want you count because your brother happens to be one of the candidates. They invalidated a bunch of ballots that were hole-punched because the paper that was punched out didn’t completely tear away (see: “hanging chad”).

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

i dont understand? did bush have a governor brother in florida?

ShepherdPie ,

Yes Jeb Bush is his brother and was governor at the time.

dRLY ,

He alone wouldn’t have been able to do much. As instead of just having conservatives/Republicans against him, the Democratic party’s members in Congress and in other fed and state level spots would also be against him. Until we get third parties in there to break up the eternal gridlock of never moving forward for real people. We just keep being pulled to the right and the centrists only care about not making the rich happy. Burn them and all of it to the ground.

Guntrigger ,

He must be an anti-semite

k110111 ,

If you rearrange the letters in “sanders” it actually becomes hamas.

stoy ,
  1. Sanders
  2. Sanhers
  3. Sanhars
  4. Samhars
  5. amhas
  6. hamas
  7. Hamas
  8. Start with the original name
  9. Remove the bottom of the letter “d”, now it looks like a mirrored “h”, so let’s mirror it back tp a normal “h”
  10. The letter “e” is just an upside down “a” with rounded corners and a tail, so rotate it into an “a”
  11. The letter “n” looks and sound almost like the letter “m”, it is almost too easy, but let’s just swap it.
  12. Remove the extra letters.
  13. Rearange the letters to spell “hamas”
  14. Capitalize the name properly.

Done!

/s

flathead ,

No need for /s - this is no less illogical than most of their other arguments.

ZombiFrancis ,

Bulletproof.

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