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scarabic ,

Why is “good progress” in quotes but not “war with Hamas?”

Characterizing the leveling of Gaza as a war with Hamas is Israeli propaganda.

randon31415 ,

Without knowing who I am talking about, which would you say is closer to your view: If a group fires rockets and kills civilians, is it

A) An act of terror for which the group should be punished

B) A regrettable outcome but permissible because they should have the right to defend themselves

Vox ,

I think anyone who knowingly fires rockets into civilian populations should be held to account for their war crimes. I am pro-peace.

I also believe any people, if backed into a tight enough corner, will retaliate by any means they deem necessary. I do not blame them for their actions but I also do not condone nor support them, and if they kill civilians should be held to account for their war crimes. I am still pro-peace.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

A false dichotomy.

For the purposes of what is going on: one government attacked another government, leading to retaliation. In both cases, civillians were predominantly targeted.

Hamas are terrorists, no doubts about it. But they are also the government of Gaza. And the Israeli Government/IDF/Mossad have been engaging in a slow genocide of a people in what amounts to a concentration camp for decades.

There are no “good guys” in this war. And it is a war. And, like in all wars, it is the civilians who suffer. The Israelis and tourists who were viciously attacked and brutalized. And the Palestinians being used as human shields by Hamas.

And… that is also why a “two state solution” is off the table. Because it will just mean Hamas becomes legitimized and consolidates their power.

But… there is also no situation where the Palestinians survive under the Israeli government.

randon31415 ,

It may be a false dichotomy, but it is also two contradictory positions held by the both groups in this conflict.

burchalka ,

But… there is also no situation where the Palestinians survive under the Israeli government.

In current day Israel there are more than 2 million Arab/Palestinians, more than 20% and growing… While in Gaza strip the Jewish population is 0, and won’t ever grow…

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Before I go off on how that post comes across: What point are you trying to make?

Also, ignoring that there were 214000 Jewish people in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002 and that is unlikely to have reached actual zero (prb.org/…/the-west-bank-and-gaza-a-population-pro…), ther are at least the Israeli and other assorted nation hostages. Many of which are Jewish. So…

Also: I believe the IDF’s goal at this point is also to make sure the population of Gaza won’t ever grow again…

burchalka ,

My point was that 2 million Palestinian Israeli citizens live and prosper, though according to “thah genocide” folks, should be gradually disappearing…

And, while I don’t have stats, but I believe Palestinians in the West bank under PA rule enjoy higher standard of living compared to Gazans, despite having much less international funds funneled to them - but I may be in the wrong here.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

… I mean, that number went down by about 8000 in the past couple weeks. So while that is not in the slightest bit “gradual”, they are “disappearing” at the rate at which people can bury or burn the bodies.

Also, isn’t customary to wait until AFTER the war to start denying genocide?

burchalka ,

I was speaking about Palestinian Israeli citizens, those that live inside Israel, learn in universities in Jerusalem/Tel Aviv/Haifa, work in law, pharmacies, hospitals or retail, pay Israeli taxes etc etc. Not about Gazans or West bank.

dx1 ,

I’ll tell you one thing - I’ve been on reddit just trying to provide some counters to the (extremely genocidal) conversation going on over there, but the censorship is just out of control. /r/worldnews mods will straight up permaban you for a comment like “I just wish everyone would try to resolve this peacefully”. You look at the front of /r/worldnews any day, it’s 60% articles from Israeli newspapers and the comments are just 75% “[removed]”.

One of the biggest discussion sites on the internet and they’ve basically weaponized it into a propaganda tool. Shameful time we live in.

assassinatedbyCIA ,

Reddit has been extremely trash. Going back from time to time wondering if the people there are talking about topics I’m interested in that haven’t gained traction on lemmy has made me seriously question why I ever liked using that site. You’re absolutely right about the genocidal conversation on r/worldnews, it’s so disgusting.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Is ongoing genocide really the place for a “ha ha, the other site sucks” post?

dx1 ,

I’m not laughing.

lolcatnip ,

That sub isn’t officially right-wing, but it’s definitely right-wing. I’ve seen a ton of transphobic bullshit upvoted there too, for example.

Daiken ,

It has been the same way for many years. I remember that’s why people started world politicssub but that was taken over or something. Most of reddit has become a breeding ground for hate filled Americans and Israelis who think there is no higher calling in the world but to kill terrorists and any amount of collateral damage is acceptable. Of course every definition of terrorists also applies to Israel but they don’t see the irony of that.

killeronthecorner ,
@killeronthecorner@lemmy.world avatar

If you’re using r/worldnews as the bar for impartiality then that’s your problem

arymandias ,

‘Good progress, with this kill rate we’ll be done in a few years!’

SoupBrick ,

Well this is horrifying.

Rapidcreek ,

Obviously hitting some weapons cache from the secondaries on the clips I’ve seen.

SARGEx117 ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    SCB ,

    Do you genuinely believe that Israel is intentionally killing everyone in Gaza?

    If so, why are they so bad at it that civilian casualties aren’t in the hundreds of thousands yet? They have total military superiority. It would be really easy to do that.

    Is Israel so incompetent that they can’t “shoot fish in a barrel” or is this take maybe really dumb?

    dx1 ,

    Go look up articles that explain why this qualifies as genocide instead of trying to incorrectly nitpick what qualifies as genocide.

    SCB ,

    It does not qualify as genocide and you’d have to be an idiot to believe any article that suggests it does.

    However, it sounds worse if you pretend it is, and that’s all you care about anyway.

    In a couple of months when there are still Palestinians in Gaza, I’ll be reminding you of this conversation.

    can ,

    Did Canada conduct a genocide against the indigenous?

    SCB ,

    Are you really trying to conflate these two situations?

    can ,

    Just seeing where you draw the line.

    Pips ,

    They certainly tried!

    TheresNodiee ,

    No, we didn’t try. We did commit genocide against our indigenous people. Arguably we still are. Genocide does not require the wholesale destruction of a people.

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    Yes and so did America

    dx1 ,

    You say that, but, I’m going to go ahead and listen to my training in international relations and law, the well-reasoned arguments based on established legal definitions, and a first-hand witnessing of the evidence in favor of the conclusion, instead of you.

    SCB ,

    I mean you can believe whatever you want, because it isn’t changing anything, but I don’t think the couple undergrad courses you took makes you better-equipped than the experts and historians who informed my worldview.

    So long as you don’t do something crazy like attack random innocent Jews at your next protest, I don’t give a shit about your opinion. I will argue against it online, though. You don’t seem particularly violent so we’re just ships in the night here.

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    If you have to hide your decisions behind pedantry you know you are in the wrong

    bababooey ,

    They’re destroyed half of all homes in Gaza and have cut off all access to food and water including bombing UN relief supplies as they come in.

    Is your take maybe really dumb?

    SCB ,

    including bombing UN relief supplies as they come in

    Weird that UN said trucks, as well as Egyptian aid trucks that Israel negotiated for are still in Gaza then.

    MrSpArkle ,

    Source on half of homes destroyed? That is a LOT of bombs.

    Zippit ,

    Source: GOOGLE IT YOURSELF.

    MrSpArkle ,

    I did but nothing seemed to support the claim.

    FoundTheVegan , (edited )
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    or is this take maybe really dumb?

    It should be a red flag to stop and revaluate your morals when it comes time to explain why something isn't genocide.

    SCB ,

    You can call literally any shit genocide and it would be indefensible to argue otherwise under your logic.

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    But we aren't talking about cookie genocide from eating a box of oreos.

    People without food, water or electricity are dying in mass to bombings from Isreal and your defending the action by saying it's not efficient enough to be a genocide. People are dying and you are playing word games.

    Seriously. Stop, walk away and really think about what is important to you

    SCB ,

    I’m not the one playing word games by calling this war genocide.

    War is indeed terrible. Civilians, especially the poor, are always the ones suffering the most in any war.

    That doesn’t make every war genocide, and that language has consequences.

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    War is between two armies, so why is Isreal cutting off food, water and electricity to the entire population? Why can't the people of Gaza leave? Why does Isreal control every facet of life in the strip? Why does Isreal use tanks against kids with rocks?

    It's not war when one side is trapped without basic utilities and the other is a well funded army.

    SCB ,

    War is between two armies, so why is Isreal cutting off food, water and electricity to the entire population?

    This is how war is fought. It is standard US doctrine, for instance.

    Why can’t the people of Gaza leave?

    Their neighbors won’t take them after some refugees attempted coups and formed terrorist organizations. I personally disagree with viewing all Palestinian refugees as inherently dangerous, but their neighbors do not.

    Why does Isreal use tanks against kids with rocks?

    They’re using tanks against combined-arms forces that include current-generation, high-tech weaponry. It says a lot about your ignorance of Hamas that you think they’re made up of “kids with rocks.” This isn’t 2014.

    FoundTheVegan , (edited )
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    This is how war is fought. It is standard US doctrine, for instance

    It is literally a war crime to do collective punishment. And I'm not sure why you would appeal to what the US does. My country is responsible for numerous atrocities, including genocide.

    It says a lot about your ignorance of Hamas that you think they’re made up of “kids with rocks.” This isn’t 2014.

    I... am honestly at a loss for words here. I don't think you realize how damming this thought process is. Of course it's not 2014, but Isreal has been killing Palestinian kids with rocks has been occurring since then (like srsly, this is recent history). But somehow this is "just a war"?

    Restricting movement and controlling all facets of life in the strip has had obvious effects on the people being controlled. How exactly did we come to the point where Israel is at war with people they control? Where the water in Isreal is clean but the facilties in Gaza are polluted. What infrastructure can be built when Israel controls the imports to the area? What country can be formed when Isreal repeatedly annexs territory to their settlers? I wasn't referring to refugees being accepted to other countries, I am talking about the walls prevent people from leaving.

    This isn't a war, but a trapped exploited people striking back at their oppressors. I'm not pleased about the violence, but it would be childish to tell these Palestinians to continue peaceful marches when they are killed in mass for doing so.

    SCB ,

    I stopped at “collective punishment” because this isn’t what that means.

    I can guess what the rest says and it’s the same tripe, probably insinuating I eon care bout Palestinians etc while also defending Hamas

    Edit: lol saw this at the end tho when I posted

    This isn’t a war, but a trapped exploited people striking back at their oppressors. I’m not pleased about the violence, but it would

    Called it

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    I am not suprised, yet still disappointed, that you continue to play semantics. But I suppose there isn't much else you can do when the goal is to defend the unconsciousable.

    One day I hope you will think both more critically of the things you say and the stances you are forced to take in service of your views.

    SCB ,

    I don’t care about where terrorist supporters think

    Riccosuave ,
    @Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

    Look at the comment ratio on this person’s profile.

    I know that can be a cheap shot at times, but when you’re talking about someone with roughly 3500 comments and 2200 “karma” you get the general sense this is more about mentally masterbating through having intentionally antagonist viewpoints while simultaneously grandstanding like they posses the insurmountable moral high ground.

    You are never going to reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into, no matter how good your intentions might be. Especially when the other person is a bad faith actor that gets off to LARPing as an “Ohio Liberal” while at the same time going out of their way to post HUNDREDS of comments justifying war crimes & atrocities against a marginalized civilian population.

    There is no scenario where this person is not enjoying the dopamine hit from justifying human suffering. It is literally a game and generally indicative of underlying sociopathic tendencies. You are only hurting yourself by engaging with that kind of vapid egotism.

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    You're absolutely right and this is a trap that I fall in to a lot. It's hard to let go through out the day as I keep wanting to find the "right words". I had to go off social media entirely during Trump because it was too easy to lose my time to nothing arguments. Honestly it's probally shades of OCD or ADHD that bring me back.

    I was starting noticing the trend here, but I appreciate the reality check. ♥ 💕

    anteaters ,

    You are completely right. If Israel really wanted to exterminate Palestine the whole thing would look drastically different and would have been completed years and years ago. Instead Israel left Gaza and all they received for that is constant missile attacks.

    burchalka ,

    Yep, the fact those missile attacks have not resulted in massive civilian casualties, is not due to them not trying enough… People writing about “kids with rocks”, tend to forget that

    Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip

    (From wikipedia)

    SlikPikker ,

    Israel isn’t invulnerable and even in its hate, arrogance and greed, it knows.

    The world can and would turn on them and destroy them.

    SCB ,

    Israel is invulnerable while the US and most of Europe exists. No one is turning from them. It’s simply not happening.

    Zippit ,

    Oh you just wait. Europe is already turning on you. Shame it will be too late for the children that are killed tonight, as we speak. But you do you…

    SCB ,

    This is just silly man.

    Linkerbaan ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Supporting a genocidal apartheids state is sillier.

    Wonder why nobody tried to just kindly ask Hitler to stop. Instead they violently shot the Nazi’s that were killing them. So uncivilized

    SCB ,

    Israel isn’t an apartheid state either. Arabs are 20% of government lol

    Comparing the Jews to Nazis is a stretch of very unique proportions

    Sparlock ,

    www.amnesty.org/…/israels-system-of-apartheid/

    news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

    Comparing groups that take similar actions is totally reasonable. Just because you don’t like the comparison doesn’t mean it is wrong.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… you might be acting like a Nazi.

    SCB ,

    Just because you don’t like the comparison doesn’t mean it is wrong

    It not being correct means it’s wrong.

    Sparlock ,

    The double posting tells me I must have touched a nerve. Maybe you should ask yourself why it stung so much? Perhaps some part of you sees the validity of the comparison but your cognitive bias won’t let you admit it.

    Quack quack dude.

    SCB ,

    No just saw that article over coffee a couple minutes later and thought it was funny

    Sparlock ,

    Whatever helps you feel better about being inconsistent.

    SCB ,

    You seem to think this is my personal opinion, but I am sharing the opinion of Israel as a state

    Sparlock ,

    Fuck off.

    Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .

    I’m done debating with genocide cheerleaders.

    SCB ,

    “I’m done”

    posts 6 more times

    Don’t you have some undergrads to post threatening messages about?

    Sparlock ,

    I’m done debating

    Words matter and you like to clipchimp to frame it favorably for you like the dishonest bad faith asshole you are. There is no debate anymore, bibi ordered a genocide in his own words, and the IDF is serving it up.

    SCB ,

    you might be acting like a nazi

    you go to Cornell by any chance?

    Another post said “the genocidal fascist zionist regime will be destroyed. rape and kill all the jew women, before they birth more jewish hitlers. jews are excrement on the face of the earth. no jew civilian is innocent of genocide [sic].”

    m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-770756

    Zippit ,

    7000 people dead and this MF says it’s not enough.

    SCB ,

    That’s not at all anything I’ve said. I’ve said calling this genocide is ridiculous. Things can be tragically bad and not the worst possible thing.

    There is no straight up plan to liquidate Gaza as in a genocide. To suggest there is such a plan is ridiculous, since Israel absolutely could enact such a plan, militarily.

    Arguing for less hyperbole and more reality is not an endorsement of anything.

    I don’t care how many people on here downvote me or insult me. Discussion should be based on reality. One can express displeasure without making up crazy shit.

    Burn_The_Right ,

    The conservatives didn’t gas every single Jew during the holocaust. They had the ability to kill all of them, but they didn’t. They destroyed their lives, but many were not killed. Does that make it any less of a genocide?

    Remember, conservatives like to include a bit of plausible deniability in their genocides to help keep everyone on board. This is very obvious genocide with a very thin patina of “plausible” deniability.

    SCB ,

    The conservatives didn’t gas every single Jew during the holocaust.

    Jesus Christ dude can you just be normal for one second.

    TheresNodiee ,

    Edit: formatting

    According to the UN Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect a genocide does not require the intended destruction of an entire people. It also doesn’t require a concentrated, physical attack against a people to qualify for genocide.

    From their site here: [www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml]

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    Killing members of the group;

    Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    (Emphasis mine)

    Ever since Israel was re-establishee in the wake of WWII, they have grown their borders by violently pushing the Palestinian people out of their homes until now there are only two small territories in which Israel has continued to illegally displace the local Palestinian people and create Israeli settlements. Now Israel is shelling one of those settlements to smithereens and moving in ground troops to occupy the land. They are committing genocide, they have been committing genocide for decades, and they won’t be satisfied until the last vestiges of Palestinian land has been assimilated into their borders.

    SCB ,

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such

    I love that you bolded for emphasis part of a paragraph you don’t understand lol.

    Fun fact, this part’s also important: national, ethnical, racial or religious group

    I bolded it for you just in case.

    Also every aspect of this is false.

    they have grown their borders by violently pushing the Palestinian people out of their homes until now there are only two small territories in which Israel has continued to illegally displace the local Palestinian people and create Israeli settlements.

    There are no settlements in Gaza, and that is not how Israel’s territory expanded.

    TheresNodiee ,

    Are you suggesting that the Palestinian people are not a national, ethnical, racial or religious group? Or did you just bold some words you don’t understand? Also would you care to explain how I don’t understand the parts I bolded? Israel has historically conducted a campaign of violent displacement of the Palestinian people. They’ve murdered them, removed them from their homes, and placed them in ghettos that Israel exercises a great deal of economic control over leading to massive rates of poverty and low access to necessary resources. You’re supporting a state that has and is committing genocide.

    Funny how you specify that there are no settlements in Gaza. Is there maybe another Palestinian territory with Israeli settlements that you’re conveniently forgetting to mention?

    And yeah, that’s exactly how Israel’s territory expanded.

    SCB ,

    Are you suggesting that the Palestinian people are not a national, ethnical, racial or religious group?

    Hamas is a political entity. Not any of the above.

    goat ,

    I recommend using Ten Stages of Genocide

    Mind you though, most of these stages are from Palestine’s own doing

    salton ,

    And by definition Hamas has genecide in its very charter. Possibly we can judge them by how much of their stored supplies they are distributing to the needy in Gaza

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    Why are we judging what we should do bad on what terrorists are doing instead

    salton ,

    Who is we in this situation?

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    Everyone involved in this discussion in general

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    (tldr: 6 sentences skipped)

    Hagari also said Israel would allow trucks carrying food, water and medicine to enter Gaza on Saturday, indicating that bombing might pause, at least in the area of its border with Egypt where small amounts of aid have been arriving.

    (tldr: 8 sentences skipped)

    Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders) said it was particularly worried for patients, medical staff and thousands of families taking shelter there and at other health facilities.

    An Al Jazeera correspondent, reporting live on Saturday morning, described the cut in internet and phone communications as “catastrophic” for rescue efforts following a night of heavy Israeli bombardment.

    (tldr: 11 sentences skipped)

    There has been growing speculation that a Qatari-brokered deal to release more hostages was imminent but Israeli military spokesman Hagari said Hamas was cynically manipulating the situation.

    (tldr: 7 sentences skipped)

    The armed wing of Hamas, the al-Qassam brigades, said early on Saturday its fighters were clashing with Israeli troops in Gaza’s northeastern town of Beit Hanoun and in the central area of Al-Bureij.

    (tldr: 3 sentences skipped)

    The United States and other Western countries have offered strong support to Israel but had urged it to hold off on a ground offensive for fear that high casualties among Palestinians would fuel wider conflict.

    (tldr: 8 sentences skipped)

    The original article contains 1,126 words, the summary contains 215 words. Saved 81%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

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