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febra ,

Reminds me of Mariupol.

pineapplelover ,

So far a lot of the news coverage on here about the israel-palestine conflict is from aljazeera. Why is that?

gmtom ,

I would imagine because in the west there is a ton of pressure to side with Israel no matter what, to the point people are losing their jobs for showing any support for Palestine or being critical of Israels actions.

pineapplelover ,

Thanks for the information. I know this conflict has been one of the most controversial and politically confusing wars ever. I guess it’s hard for people at large news sites to write about it.

WhiteHawk ,

Because Lemmy is just as hell-bent on making Israel look like the only bad guy in that conflict as Aljazeera is.

Clerkle ,
@Clerkle@lemmy.world avatar

And I’ve noticed their before and after photos show a before of the suburbs and any after photos showing the city. Cheap tricks. Not that I doubt the main message, but it cheapens the integrity.

DogMuffins ,

Can someone give me the straight talk on why western countries, who usually at least try to look like they have the moral high ground, are falling all over themselves in support of Israel?

What is the non-conspiracy nutter reason why the US feels the need to provide billions of dollars in support to Israel?

Clearly actions on both sides are reprehensible, some more-so than others. There’s no goodies and baddies here. There’s aggressors, innocents, and victims on all sides.

rdri , (edited )

You said it. Actions of one side are more reprehensible than of the other. In fact, much more reprehensible from what I see.

One side: “We understand you have terrorists, but it’s not our responsibility to help you with it because we value lives of our people. We are going to help you with basic supplies like water, electricity, internet etc., and protect ourselves with the iron dome. It all costs a lot but lives are really what matters.”

Another side: “Our objective will not be completed until your country and citizens stop existing. We were elected having this objective by our people. We will teach our children that this is also their objective. We will build rockets. We will launch them at you even if some of them may not reach your territory. We will launch them from civillian buildings because we know you care about lives of civillians. You will think twice before launching anything back, and when you do, you will be blamed by the world for killing innocents. We will kill as many of your civilians as we can, by our hands. We will brake their limbs and hold them hostages, even if they are the citizens of other countries. And when you retaliate, the world will blame you for what you have done. The world must understand that by killing your people we fight for our future, and give us everything we need. This will be glorious, and you will die, and we will prosper, and the world will forget we are the killers, and remember you as killers. We will throw every resource we have for that to happen, be it the money we got as a humanitarian aid for our citizens or baby dolls that should be indistinguishable from dead children with some mosaic. Oops we forgot the mosaic. You didnt see it. You are the killers.”

DogMuffins ,

Hmm… it seems like the disparity of “badness” you describe would’ve been true a few months ago, but no longer is?

Most of what you’ve said about Palestinians also describes israel now? Seems that way anyway.

If we were looking for the path to peace with the least casualties, this doesn’t seem like it.

mwguy ,

Most of what you’ve said about Palestinians also describes israel now? Seems that way anyway.

The .de is showing.

DogMuffins ,

I’m from Australia.

mwguy ,

Then you should be practical enough to realize that almost none of what was said about Palestinians in that statement describes Israel now.

DogMuffins ,

Ok mate. Believe it or not, I’m not looking for an argument about who is most awful between Palestinians and Israelis.

My question is, why the world feels the need to take sides in this conflict rather than simply condemning the violence perpetrated by both sides.

The hatred violence, and wrongdoing does not need to be equal between all combatants in order for the hatred, violence, and wrongdoing to be condemned.

mwguy ,

My question is, why the world feels the need to take sides in this conflict rather than simply condemning the violence perpetrated by both sides.

Well imagine that the native Australian population, the Aboriginals decoded they wanted their land back and started murdering all the white folk and they killed the equivalent of about 5,000 people (adjusted for Australia’s population); mostly eldely and children. They restarted started a bombing campaign that threatened every inch of Australia. And they did this after ~60 years of similar actions on a smaller scale.

Would you and your countrymen submit to genocide for peace? Or would you fight back?

For you and I (USA), nations built on European Colonialism; it should be clear why that Colonialism was wrong but why it can’t be undone. Trying to correct past atrocities with a modern genocide isn’t acceptable and the last 20 years of Hamas’s rule in Gaza has shown that Genocide is all it will accept.

meekah ,
@meekah@lemmy.world avatar

Well, since Hamas doesn’t represent all of Palestine, it doesn’t make sense to decimate the whole of Palestine. Sure, send in special forces that track down Hamas and kill them. But don’t carpet bomb civilian areas in the hopes you get the right people.

Also, you’re saying Israel has been doing this on a smaller scale. I don’t think that’s entirely accurate. Yes, many years “just” a few hundred Palestinians were killed by Israel. But a few times Israel already committed atrocities much worse than what Hamas did on October 7th. And that’s ignoring that Palestine already has half the population of Israel. And also ignoring all the other ways Israel has been oppressing them, like heavily regulating and limiting trade with other nations or preventing Palestine from having an army

Are you seriously trying to argue that Israel doing this to Palestine for the past half century should be ignored? Just because maybe the majority of years it was less deaths? Do you seriously not understand why Palestinians are fighting back? Or do you seriously believe that Palestinians are the aggressors here?

mwguy ,

They’re not decimating the whole of Palestine. They’re attacking the parts that Hamas rules.

meekah ,
@meekah@lemmy.world avatar

So why is it that civilians keep dying then? Attacking the parts they rule makes it okay that civilians die?

mightyfoolish ,

There are Israelis who pour concrete mix into the water in the West Bank.

haaretz.com/…/00000189-a31f-d00f-a7db-b39f5f28000…

mwguy ,

That’s horrendous. And is part of the reason why violence in the West Bank hasn’t gotten the support for reprisals like violence from Gaza has.

DogMuffins ,

That’s just not analogous though.

I am loathe to defend hamas, but the UN stats just don’t portray them as the aggressors.

If Australian aboriginals started terrorising the rest of us, of course we would use reasonable force to bring that to a stop. We would also be negotiating, and compromising. If we decided that peaceful solutions had been exhausted, I can assure you other countries wouldn’t be sending us billions of dollars worth of hardware with which to exterminate them.

mwguy ,

I am loathe to defend hamas, but the UN stats just don’t portray them as the aggressors.

Mr Dog muffins, if the Aboriginals in Australia started a campaign of war against the white Austrailians, what makes you think the casualty numbers would be less skewed there?

If Australian aboriginals started terrorising the rest of us, of course we would use reasonable force to bring that to a stop. If we decided that peaceful solutions had been exhausted,

Well congrats now you’re doing the same thing Israel is doing. Peaceful solutions with Hamas have been exhausted.

I can assure you other countries wouldn’t be sending us billions of dollars worth of hardware with which to exterminate them.

How would you feel if we sent billions of dollars of Aid to the people trying to genocide you instead? What if we continued to commit billions in aid in the form of materials we knew were being used to create weapons to indiscriminately kill Australians. And then we condemned you for trying to stop that miltilitary aid?

The good news is, for countries like ours; we don’t have to pretend to sit up on our high horse like the Europeans do. We have complicated, often evil histories with our colonized populations. But as much as we can and should call out that history as evil, as genocide; we should also know that you can’t answer a genocide with genocide.

DogMuffins ,

Those stats aren’t from war-time - this isn’t a spears vs guns situation. Sorry maye you’re welcome to criticise me all you like for Australia’s treatment of first nations people but your aboriginal metaphor is not analogous to the gaza conflict and isn’t helping illustrate your point.

The core of our disagreement is the level of force used in response.

Forgive me, but I’ve come to expect a “fucked around and found out” mode of diplomacy from the US. As in, hamas threw the first punch so theres a moral imperative to grind gaza into the dust.

I don’t see it that way. A few weeks ago there was a stale mate. Israel has adequate defences. Securing Israel with minimal loss of life ought to be the priority.

I’m happy to disagree in this regard, neither of us are going to change our positions.

mwguy ,

Those stats aren’t from war-time - this isn’t a spears vs guns situation.

That’s objectively wrong. There were several active conflicts during that time period. With similar targeted bombing campaigns, in 2008-2009, 2012 and 2014 with several smaller skirmishes in between.

flathead ,

For the first years of Australia’s colonization, there was militant Aboriginal resistance - of course, given their technological disadvantages, it was not successful and the indigenous population were slaughtered at every turn.

The most well-known and feared of the early insurrectionists - a Bidjigal man named Pemulwuy - is today celebrated by white Australian culture - one of Sydney’s suburbs is named for him. The British were somewhat less charitable in 1802, when he was finally captured, shot and beheaded after many years of fighting against their presence in early Sydney.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_frontier_wars

www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/…/pemulwuy

DogMuffins ,

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Yes colonists did some very bad things in Australia 200 years ago. Should we not strove to hold ourselves to a higher standard?

“Yes Israel is creating a humanitarian crisis, but we it’s fine to support their endeavours because we did some very bad things 200 years ago”.

flathead ,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I didn’t say anything like that - go easy on those quote marks ;) - I’m just talking about Australian history, not the current events. I am cautious discussing history in this contentious thread because I’m really just interested in the discussion about indigenous Australians, who did resist occupation, to the extent they could. The colonial response to that became “The Frontier Wars”. Which was quasi-official genocide.

There are parallels in colonization throughout history, of course, which is presumably how this particular discussion came about, but today’s situation is obviously a vastly different time and place to early Australia and I’m not informed enough to opine on what’s happening now. I’m just here reading stuff on Lemmy.

Having said all this, indigenous Australians were living for thousands of years without any formalized state, political or military structure. No metal, wheels, writing or permanent dwellings. Had there been less difference in technology and logistical capabilities between aboriginal Australians and the British in the early 1800s, then Australia would probably look very different than it does today.

DogMuffins ,

Sure. I actually don’t know that much about Australia’s colonisation other than what we were taught in school, which I can assure you doesn’t focus on the genocide part.

I’ve always found the “terra nullius” aspect of international law to be fascinating. James Cook is generally credited with Australia’s discovery, but the West Coast had been visited many times by the dutch, and my favorite description of Cook is that he was “just the guy that steered the boat for Joseph Banks”. Although they declared that there were no permanent settlements of any note, in the most recent decades this has been found to be false, in courts of law, many times over.

flathead ,

I am perhaps naively hopeful that the education curriculum has evolved since you were at school, although quite likely not. The genocide part is not a palatable discussion to most people and probably a little heavy for high school.

The British knew full-well what they were doing. The legal maneuvering necessary to dispossess the indigenous population is not unique to Australia’s colonial history - and the British had plenty of practice subjugating more aggressive native populations before they founded Sydney.

You’re quite right - the Dutch, and to a lesser extent the French were already aware of the Australian continent and must have made some contact with Aboriginal people. There were also informal outposts of whalers and seal-hunters that were probably established to some extent several years before British occupation.

There were many aboriginal people living on the continent when Cook and Banks dropped anchor in Sydney. The earliest accounts usually mention seeing smoke from campfires all along the coast. Most of the initial deaths were from disease. The British took smallpox cultures to Sydney with the first fleet in 1788 - within a year of their arrival in Sydney, disease killed between 50 and 90 percent of the indigenous population. Whether the British deliberately introduced smallpox to the aboriginal population is still debated, although I don’t know why else they would carry smallpox cultures on the first fleet - maybe they already knew how to vaccinate with it - but I would think you could get the cultures from an infected person were that the case. What other reason for carrying smallpox to Australia on the first fleet could there be, unless it was a biological weapon?

www.nma.gov.au/…/smallpox-epidemic

In Van Diemen’s Land (now Tasmania) the resistance to the settlers moving in on aboriginal hunting grounds became so troublesome that the government set up a program to capture or exterminate all native people in 1830 - by which time the Aboriginal population had already been reduced by 90 percent since settlement - the remaining few thousand aboriginal people were extremely hostile to the encroaching settlements and they were raiding and burning houses, killing settlers.

www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/…/the-black-line

As in all conflicts, there are nuances and factors that we can’t fully appreciate or empathize with from our current perspective, but what happened to the Aboriginal population during Australia’s settlement should be a cause for national introspection - this makes the referendum result last week seem so disappointing to those who would like to see a more open acknowledgement of the darker history of Australia’s founding - and greater efforts made to redress it.

mwguy ,

Do you support Genociding the current European Australian population to return the land to the Aboriginals? Because that’s what Hamas and the majority of Palestinians want and have been working towards for decades.

DogMuffins ,

This is such a daft question.

A lot of land which has been occupied by Aboriginals has already been “returned” under a process known as native title claims. Its an ongoing process and yes I support this process.

That said, I’m sure you’re proposing the absurdity of somehow returning all of Australia, which is not possible and no one supports that.

Similarly, returning Israel’s land is not reasonably possible and no one would support that excepting radicalised Palestinians.

Your question is based on the flawed premise that one or other combatant is “right”. They’re both wrong.

mwguy ,

That said, I’m sure you’re proposing the absurdity of somehow returning all of Australia, which is not possible and no one supports that.

Similarly, returning Israel’s land is not reasonably possible and no one would support that excepting radicalised Palestinians.

That’s precisely what Hamas is demanding in Israel. Hamas is the reigning government in Gaza and according to polling is not only popular but would win an open election in the West Bank.

mightyfoolish ,

The West knows they messed up with the actual historical countries of the area. Too many milenia of trying to take over and cause havoc (like in 63 BC when the Romans left a few hundred people alive of the natives like the Samaritans, the Crusades, etc.). They saw what the Germans did to European Jews and saw an opportunity: “If we can’t make friends in the traditional sense, we’ll create one.”

They shipped Jews from all over the world to Palestine. As their citizens of these Western countries are either Christian or come from Christian families, all this Israel nonsense sounds vaguely correct. These countries acted like dogs. It got to the point where France even pretended to allies to Arabic countries, only to reveal it was a lie/trap.

Then the media comes in and sneakily replaces Palestinians with Hamas when it benefits Israel’s cause even though Hamas hasn’t went through elections in nearly two decades and the average age of someone from Gaza is somewhere between 14 and 18.

Israel is just a western invention to give the West an ally in the region and it worked because it all sounds vaguely biblical correct to a world where Christianity just means “I hate gays and abortions and we don’t actually need to act like Jesus who was kind of Jewish anyways.”

rdri ,

Can you give any example of concrete case where Israel did anything comparable to what hamas did at October 7th?

DogMuffins ,

No. I didn’t say nor imply that I could. I’m not saying they’re both as bad as each other. I’m saying that a humanitarian crisis is unfolding, and western nations are standing in support.

rdri ,

Support of what? Palestinians will get humanitarian aid either way. Problem is that they (well, hamas) will try to use it to build more rockets, not to improve their lives.

DogMuffins ,

In support of Israel while they cause a humanitarian crisis.

rdri ,

And what exactly Palestinians have caused by slaughtering hundreds of civillians on October 7th? Nothing? They are innocent and should be left alone?

DogMuffins ,

It’s like you’re intentionally ignoring what I’m saying. Of course they’re not innocent. Yes they should be held accountable.

If you think killing 5,000 civilians is an appropriate response then I don’t know what to say to you.

rdri ,

And the thing is there is no one to hold them accountable because there is no proper government and institutions in Gaza. Israel is different because it is being watched, and will be held accountable for any wrongdoings.

Now about 5,000.

  1. Where exactly did you get it from? We know hamas is lying about a lot of things including deaths count. There was no evidence of those alleged 800 deaths at the “hospital bombing”.
  2. Why exactly do you think you need to throw big numbers here? Even one victim means Israel’s actions must be examined and judged, yes. That goes without saying because of how Israel is connected to the rest of the world. But when hamas fires missiles from some building that, for example, has 100,000 civillians in it, it is hamas who says “it is okay if all these people are killed”, not Israel. That much should be obvious even to Palestinians.
DogMuffins ,

You again.

I respect you, but you need to understand that you and I are going to disagree as to whether or not Israel’s response is appropriate under the circumstances. We could go through this whole tête-à-tête again, and we will reduce our respective positions down to this same disagreement.

Where exactly did you get it from?

Don’t be daft. We’ve both been reading articles based on the same announcements by the hamas-run gazan health ministry. We both know those numbers are overstated, but my point remains the same whether it’s over-stated by 500, 1000, or 4000. It doesn’t matter.

Why exactly do you think you need to throw big numbers here?

IDK, why did you include 100,000 in your response?

But when hamas fires missiles from some building that, for example, has 100,000 civillians in it, it is hamas who says “it is okay if all these people are killed”, not Israel.

They’ve fired something like 7,000 missiles in the last 2 weeks and achieved 11 casualties.

rdri ,

You still didn’t explain how we can “respond appropriately without causing a humanitarian crisis.”

whether it’s over-stated by 500, 1000, or 4000. It doesn’t matter.

It doesn’t matter if you want more people to live but it proves a point. You can’t trust terrorists.

why did you include 100,000 in your response?

To emphasize that even if that many are going to be killed technically by Israeli bombs, it’s really hamas who put those people to danger in the first place. I don’t think the defender is obligated to be 100% sure that no civillians would die from their strikes.

They’ve fired something like 7,000 missiles in the last 2 weeks and achieved 11 casualties.

Who, hamas? Well look at that, they turned out to be the good guys huh? Could it have something to do with iron dome and how Israel is actually trying to protect its citizens, I wonder? Hmm… Nah. Fuck Israel for having more casualties in their reckless bombing, right?

DogMuffins ,

Goodness me. You’re really stuck in this goodies vs baddies mentality.

You don’t need to pick a side. You can condemn both sides for their shitty behavior.

Hamas are terrorists. They’re untrustworthy. They’re rapists and murderers.

Israel are causing a humanitarian crisis. The death of non-combatants on this scale is unacceptable.

Neither side are good guys.

Again, our disagreement centres around what level of force is appropriate to the threat.

Israel’s citizens have been relatively safe from Hamas in recent years. Iron dome is very effective. All Israel needed to do to mitigate the threat was to maintain defensive positions. Of course this doesn’t “erase Hamas”, but it’s just not possible to do that. You can’t kill all the terrorists, you just create more.

rdri ,

And again, you didn’t explain how we can “respond appropriately without causing a humanitarian crisis.”

Neither side are good guys.

One side are terrorists.

All Israel needed to do to mitigate the threat was to maintain defensive positions.

Is that what you call shitty behavior that you condemn Israel for? That’s less than optimal.

You can’t kill all the terrorists, you just create more.

Doesn’t sound true or right to me. This is like saying you can’t rid the world of murderers. Manipulation here is that someone would understand the thought as “better leave them alone”, and we know it doesn’t work like that.

DogMuffins ,

Sorry chief. I’m just not going to reply to you any more. In every comment you’re pushing a false dichotomy whereby criticizing Israel is somehow tantamount to endorsing Hamas. It’s great to disagree on things but this is going nowhere.

rdri ,

See above. You said you have the solution but failed to explain it. This is why you look wrong when criticizing Israel.

There is only one dichotomy and it’s about being or not being terrorists. Israel is not special in how it reacts to terrorism and therefore doesn’t deserve any special criticism about it.

Viper_NZ ,

Ignoring Jewish settlers in the West Bank, Gaza quite literally being a ghetto full of people forced off their land, the military checkpoints, the complete imbalance of deaths and suffering between the two sides.

As reprehensible as the violence is on both sides, Israel/Palestine is an apartheid state and Palestinians suffer far more than just from the effects of violence.

rdri ,

What exact violence? Israel provides Gaza with stuff they need. Including pipes for the water construction, that instead are used to build rockets.

Palestinians are doing terrorism, whether they understand it or not. Israel reacts to terrorism. Do you not agree that a country should react to acts of terrorism?

Viper_NZ ,

They absolutely should respond to acts of violent terrorism, and I didn’t suggest they don’t. However it’s far from one sided.

The Gaza strip is an open air prison for over 2 million people, who can’t even access, or travel for proper healthcare where food and water are insecure or poorly available. Where you can’t leave by either land or sea. Where even if you were one of the >1 million young people living there who managed to leave you’d be poor and uneducated.

But maybe you’re not in Gaza. Maybe you’re one of the Palestinians who live in the west bank can can barely travel without huge impediments, or may see your house demolished to make way for Israeli settlers, in what amounts to an apartheid system, widely condemned internationally by human rights organisations.

Hamas are absolutely disgusting, and the terrorist attack on Israel should be rightly condemned. But if you think Israel are the good guys here, and this is a black and white, good and evil situation you’re not paying attention.

rdri ,

So they are responding, there is no problem with that.

Though I find it amusing that so much effort goes into outlining the hurdles of Palestinians only.

If you want to promote better lives for Palestinians, then maybe you should’ve started with themselves, to let them know they shouldn’t have elected terrorists their leaders. Maybe Palestinians would understand that doing terrorism will not give them any good future?

DogMuffins ,

Do you not agree that a country should react to acts of terrorism?

You’re implying a false dichotomy, as though in response to a terrorist attack you either lie down and accept further attacks, or grind gaza into the dust.

rdri ,

No, I’m not. Grinding Giza to the dust is not what’s being done. Hamas contribute more by firing uncontrollable missiles that also tend to fall in Gaza.

But you are implying a reality where every single sane person should ignore the existence and terrorism of hamas and Palestinians. Probably.

DogMuffins ,

Grinding Giza to the dust is not what’s being done.

Hyperbole on my part, but not excessive given the post we’re discussing this under.

Hamas contribute more by firing uncontrollable missiles that also tend to fall in Gaza.

Patently false. I’ll refer you again to the pictures in this article.

But you are implying a reality where every single sane person should ignore the existence and terrorism of hamas and Palestinians.

This is the false dichotomy I referred to in my last comment. Perhaps you should look it up. We can acknowledge the existence of terrorism and respond appropriately without causing a humanitarian crisis.

This is classic American “fucked around and found out” diplomacy. Like a child with a hammer.

rdri ,

We can … respond appropriately without causing a humanitarian crisis.

Yeah kindly explain how exactly maybe?

If hamas wouldn’t use Palestinians as a shield there would be no crisis.

ComradeKhoumrag ,
@ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

War is about resources. USA and Britain don’t give a shit about giving the land (that they stole from Palestinians) to Jewish people. Israel and Saudi Arabia are their only ways to project power in the region to have leverage against countries with more oil.

jmsy ,

Hamas are terrorists and Western governments support combatting them. Hamas hides behind civilians who tragically are the victims of the war Hamas started this time

Shea ,

Palestine doesn’t have an army, they’re not allowed to.

DogMuffins ,

That’s not really an answer though - obviously there’s a question of degree.

If there were 20,000 terrorists with access to advanced weaponry then a few hundred civilian casualties is probably acceptable. If there’s 100 terrorists with access to some home made rockets then a few thousand civilian casualties probably isn’t acceptable.

Is the present campaign against Gaza with the mode of engagement by Israel really the surest path to peace with the least civilian casualties? Hard to believe given that there was a stale mate just a few weeks ago.

Besides which, you can’t kill all the terrorists, that’s not how extremism works.

jmsy ,

Of course it’s an answer.

DogMuffins ,

Ok, well it doesn’t address the question, at all.

jmsy ,

Of course it does. Fighting terrorism gives the perception of moral high ground

DogMuffins ,

Israel is creating a humanitarian crisis. If you’re getting the perception of moral high ground I don’t really know what to say to you.

gmtom ,

Because Israel is ultimately a problem created by western nations like the UK and US, have more similar culture to the west and are their strategic partner for the area whereas the arab nations are traditionally backed by Russia. So they basically HAVE to give them unconditional support to Israel or lose their influence on the region.

DogMuffins ,

I’ve done some reading and listening since I asked this question and I think that this is the correct answer.

They’re the only non-muslim country in the middle-east, and therefore our closest ideological partner, and therefore our best strategic partner.

resin85 ,

“War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.” – MAS*H

Mrkawfee ,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    rdri ,

    Fuck Israel for trying to defend against terrorism you mean?

    ComradeKhoumrag ,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    No fuck Israel they’re a nation state of terrorists

    rdri ,

    You sure you want to call Israel that, while Gaza is literally controlled by terrorists who vowed to destroy Jews and have been regularly bombing Israel by unreliable missiles?

    ComradeKhoumrag ,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    Yeah because of those same standards (such as when Israel presented a map a few months ago with no Palestine on it, insinuating there wouldn’t be Palestinians, which is ethnic cleansing)

    rdri ,

    Oh wow, a map issue. Genocide! Clearly they must have their citizens killed for it!

    ComradeKhoumrag ,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    The Palestinians that had nothing to do with the terror attack don’t deserve to be killed either. One in the same

    rdri ,

    Hamas thinks different, apparently. If they cared about Palestinians they wouldn’t use civillan buildings to fire missiles, for example.

    ComradeKhoumrag ,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    I am not denying Hamas as an extremist organization, even though they bombed that hospital out of incompetence. My point being every true reason you’ve listed about Hamas are still things Israel has done to Palestinians as well

    rdri ,

    You mean Israel did something comparable to a sudden violent attack on civilians, killing hundreds and taking hostages? Did it also announce the elimination of all Palestinians as a goal for better future by chance? Do Israeli happily shout “our god is the greatest” when they see missiles launching?

    And I don’t mean any of this makes killing Palestinian civillians okay. But these are clues that show how they are not adequate. It is normal to see people suffer from their inadequate actions. There is no use in blaming Israel after you start a war against it, just like there is no use in blaming a knife that you stabbed your own throat with.

    People can proceed with their sympathy towards Palestinians, and they may even deserve it. But they also deserve all the blame for their poor choices.

    randon31415 ,

    Just ask yourself - if Iran did this to an Israeli city ‘in defense of the people of Gaza’, who would you be saying to fuck?

    Shea ,

    I’ve been saying fuck Israel for years. They’ve been tearing innocent families out of their homes to occupy their land for their entire existence. No fucking wonder they got radicalized and fight back. It’s the same story with the US and Iran man, they helped create all the terrorists that attack them.

    rdri ,

    Did what exactly?

    randon31415 ,

    Look at the pictures in the link. If that was an Israeli city hit by Iran, who would be at fault? Now they are actually of Gaza. Whose fault is it in reality? If you didn’t answer Israel to one of those two questions, then you hold that Israel can do no wrong.

    rdri ,

    If no one would’ve done terrorism on October 7th, no one would do anything like you see on a photo today. And, oh, how much more would you be upset if Israel would do attacks without a warning, just like hamas does, I can’t imagine.

    If you have balls to blame Israel for the existence of “kill all Jews” in Palestinians’ doctrine, you are out of your mind.

    randon31415 ,

    Group A is angry. It shoots missles and kills innocent civilians. Group B states “This will not stand! We must defeat group A and put an end to their killing of innocent civilians!” Group B then shoots missles, but instead of just killing group A, they kill a bunch more innocent civilians. On that last group of civilians, who is to blame for their death? In abstract it should be the ones shooting the missles.

    You might be tempted to say it was group A’s fault for shooting the first batch of missles, thinking I am referring to Hamas. That is why I made up the (hopefully) hypothetical scenario that group A is Israel and group B is Iran. All I want to get across is those that shoot missles and kill innocents REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES are to blame for the death they cause.

    rdri ,

    Group B is unrelated so the whole thing is unrelated.

    I’m not proposing to remove all blame from Israel. But its actions are within adequate frame, and it can be investigated and held accountable. This never applies to Palestinians, they won’t be prosecuted and will proceed with terrorism if not stopped.

    randon31415 ,

    Group B fired missles that killed innocent civilians in both scenarios. Proposing they are unrelated removed all blame from them.

    Also, when was the last time any resolution at the UN security council has passed and held Israel accountable? Seems like the whole region has avoided any formal accountability, both Hamas and Israel.

    rdri ,

    Whatever the UN did wrong, it doesn’t mean Israel can be treated like terrorists.

    randon31415 ,

    Whatever Hamas did wrong, doesn’t mean that the Palestinians can be treated like terrorists.

    rdri ,

    This is not what’s happening.

    All the suffering of Palestinians are the result of electing hamas and its actions.

    Hamas can stop the suffering immediately by surrendering and releasing hostages.

    randon31415 ,

    This is not what’s happening.

    All the suffering of the Israelis are the result of electing Likud and its actions.

    Likud can stop the suffering immediately by surrendering and returning the stolen land.

    In what world would either of those things happen?

    rdri ,

    In a world where a person stabbing themselves with a knife can realize they are only hurting themselves by proceeding, and stop until it’s too late. A knife will not stop until the person stabbing themselves with it stops.

    As for your take on my words, it’s laughable. Describe me a world where a group of people do nothing but build swords, them use them to defeat another group who has guns, then “unsteal” the land they refuse to live without, successfully.

    Mrkawfee ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Letstakealook ,

    If Israel’s genocidal campaign is actually halted (likely temporarily), the lingering effects of this bombing campaign will continue to claim lives. There will be an increase in premature deaths, at least until Israel decides to complete its final solution. Weapons manufacturers and those who use their products aren’t known for “green” initiatives.

    shalafi , (edited )

    Bear with me a bit, if you will. There’s a sharp point, at least I think so.

    If you’ve never lived on the ground for a disaster like a hurricane or tornado, it’s worse than any picture or video can depict. I wept in the street, on my knees, the morning after Hurricane Ivan. It was 10AM, a cool, leafless autumn morning, but it had been summer 12-hours earlier. 10 of those hours was darkness and that nonstop goddamned freight train sound.

    “My god, what happened to my new city?” Had no notion of the blast radius, all I could see was what I could see. Watched the blue fireworks of exploding transformers all night. Still didn’t hit me. Thinking I was on my own, I wept a bit when the Guard rolled in. “We’re getting *help?!*What? Why? How?”

    After living though Ivan, I cried my eyes out seeing what happened to my neighbors in southern Mississippi after Katrina. And then I went and saw for myself. My poor words cannot do justice.

    My father-in-law, after picking up a pair of Bronze Stars in Iraq, came home and fought his way through to save those people. They sawed fucking houses in half to open the roads. This old white man was so fond of his memories, showing us pictures of the little black kids they gave salvaged Walmart bikes to. He looked like a proud papa. And then he disintegrated.

    He was fine after Iraq, held it together. His Katrina PTSD led him to leave his wife of 32-years and ignore his only child, blew his family apart.

    And here’s the tip of the spear:

    This is an order of magnitude worse. This isn’t some blameless natural disaster. These aren’t first-world country folks, cranking up the gennies, sharing what they got with anyone in need, pulling together in the face of tragedy. This is a modern nation state purposefully and with malice aforethought conducting genocide on a weaker neighbor. National Guard ain’t rolling in for these folks. They’re truly on their own.

    Cold_Brew_Enema ,

    Way to make this about you

    grysbok ,
    @grysbok@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    I took it to be them anchoring in their own experiences and trying to use those experiences as a way to help others understand even 1/10 of what the Gazans are going through. Felt like it was coming from a place of support and empathy. I can see your interpretation too, though.

    Black_Gulaman ,
    @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    It’s illegal to share experiences now?

    They shared theirs so you can have context on how bad the situation is on gaza. Chill on your projections bro.

    Why9 ,

    Way to make this about you

    You’re really, really stupid if that’s what you got from it.

    Smacks ,
    @Smacks@lemmy.world avatar

    The single downvote on each of the replies are you, aren’t they?

    Sir_Kevin ,
    @Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Damn bro I feel that. Thanks for sharing 😔

    xePBMg9 ,

    Israel is paying for these destroyed apartments, right?

    SinningStromgald ,

    Paying to knock them down or refurbish them for Israeli settlers once they’re done and shrunk Gaza. This is all the long game of Israel finally paying off. The constant stick pokes finally got a response they could use to justify the genocide they’ve always wanted.

    Even more disgusting is so much of the world is doing fuck all AGAIN. So many times we’ve seen similar circumstances play out to the same end and every time those we could do something don’t.

    dlatch ,

    On the contrary, they already said that once they’re done destroying whatever is left, they will stop providing anything to Gaza.

    They’ll probably still keep up the air, sea and land blockades though, so good luck to anyone else trying to help.

    detalferous ,

    Genocide

    kamenlady ,
    @kamenlady@lemmy.world avatar

    This is genocide by the book. After almost 2 decades of being kept poor & isolated, comes in an ultra modern army to do exactly what?

    I’m German and anti Hamas.

    Where’s the fight against Hamas taking place, btw? There should be footage of destroyed Hamas stuff or some dead Hamas Soldiers to be seen, or am i missing something?

    Israel has been bombarding for days

    cozz33 ,

    Where do you think Hamas is hiding???

    los_chill ,

    “Hiding” doesn’t justify killing civilians.

    cozz33 ,

    Above commenter asked where the fight with Hamas is taking place.

    JGrffn ,

    But that’s not fighting, that’s exterminating.

    rdri ,

    I think fighting terrorism and warning citizens before bombing is not genocide. Telling citizens they are, in fact, should not run, is closer to genocide.

    Actual process of getting rid of terrorists is not exactly something anyone should require to trust someone, but you can check a lot of videos they publish of destroying specific buildings in Gaza.

    Be sure to also check the videos of Palestinians killing innocents left and right in Israel. They recorded those themselves.

    WhiteHawk ,

    How would you be able to tell the difference between a dead hamas soldier and a dead civilian? They don’t carry weapons all the time, you know, and terrorist organizations don’t exactly wear uniforms.

    some_guy ,

    Israel can fuck right off forever.

    probablyaCat ,

    I'm curious how you think Israel should respond after 1400 mostly civilians are killed and a couple hundred hostages taken by the government of the territory next to them.

    Zron ,

    Not blow up the homes and businesses of a bunch of random civilians who had nothing to do with that?

    probablyaCat ,

    You said what you wouldn't do. But you didn't actually answer the question. What would you do?

    aniki ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    probablyaCat ,

    So again, this is what you wouldn't do. What would you do? Do you understand the question? Not sure if I'm being clear enough here. It seems everyone is an expert on the situation in Israel and Palestine until you ask for specifics. So I'm specifically asking What would you do if you were in charge of Israel at the moment?

    cozz33 ,

    Everytime I’ve asked this to someone that’s taken a hardline stance I’m met with either “it’s a complex issue” or just completely ignoring the question 😂

    aniki ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    probablyaCat ,

    So you're calling for ethnic cleansing then?

    Also I don't downvote anyone really. And I'm kbin so I doubt it'd show up if I did.

    Zron ,

    Supposedly they have one of the most effective intelligence services in the world.

    Maybe utilize them to find out where the enemy and hostages actually are, and use smaller, more surgical strikes to extract the hostages and eliminate hostile leadership.

    You know, instead of indiscriminately bombing civilians.

    What would you do? You seem to be defending the murder of random civilians, or at least defensive of the fact that I don’t approve of it, so do you find the current strategy to be acceptable?

    Are you unaware of what intelligence services and special forces units are supposed to do? Because if you are aware, then you seem kinda supportive of massive and clearly intentional civilian casualties.

    kerrypacker ,

    If you took and killed my family due to some bullshit ideology, whatever it was, either side, I would nuke you and everyone who shared your ideology without a second thought. So let’s stop trying to act virtuous and just understand why both sides are doing what they’re doing…but one is sure to lose.

    JimmyMcGill ,

    And now you know why it’s Israel’s fault that so many people join Hamas. Congrats.

    probablyaCat ,

    You are apparently unaware of what intelligence services and special forces do. This isn't an episode of 24. They aren't using their spy satellites and increasing resolution. And spending special forces into a densely populated area where they would be quickly observed and attacked would just cause them to be killed. Here you can check out about the battle of Mogadishu.

    I'm not in support of civilian casualties. I am not in support of war. But when war is brought to you, you cannot just ignore it. Life isn't a video game. And when you are in charge, every decision could alter the outcome. Special forces cannot put up their hoods and walk with their heads down to disappear into the crowd like this is Assassin's creed. Special forces work when they are not suspecting you, and when there is a possibility for small precise attacks making major changes.

    There is no question that Israel aims to completely remove Gaza's ability to attack Israel for a long time. Everything else is people arguing over the level of malice. Israel has tried different solutions to stopping attacks. And certainly some people in power use the instability to remain in power on both sides. But, historically, that has not been the majority of Israelis or the government there. The situation after they left Gaza actually put more of those people into power (such as Bibi, who absolutely called what would happen in Gaza... as much as I hate to admit it).

    Here is what we know. A big olive branch was rejected and exploited. Waiting it out and dealing with attacks on an individual basis, setting up security precautions, and diplomacy with outside Arab countries has so far failed and allowed for the third biggest terrorist attack in history. They are using what is militarily called rapid dominance. This includes a strong display of force that demoralizes and destabilizes an enemies ability to fight. It aims to reduce the casualties of the ground forces that come after and to shorten the length of the war overall. And that second part is also important here. Israel is a small country. They might be much more advanced, but they still have to deal with all of the same problems as any army concerning morale and resources. What happens if they instead lead with a ground force, but the war drags on and civilians are still dying, but this time it is because wars dragging on also destabilize and cause issues. On top of that, your military is now much weaker and exhausted. And you still have countries outside of Palestine that want to destroy you too.

    But all you can see is what is happening. You aren't actually thinking about the results of alternatives.

    mingistech ,
    @mingistech@lemmy.world avatar

    Hey there, I just joined this conversation. BUT WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

    Annoyed_Crabby ,

    Is the respond of killing 3.5k+ civilian + countless injured + million displaced justified for the 1400 civilian killed + 200 hostage? Is the exchange rate of palestinian life to israeli life these day 2.5:1?

    I’m curious on how people could go “it’s too cruel” when they read the news 1400 humans being brutally murdered but when they read the news about the killed civilian from the other side and also the constant terror and murder commited by the illegal settler in west bank they can make out all sort of justification to calm down their heart.

    Benjamin Netanyahu and the IDF is truly a genius, they successfully dehumanise the Palestinians so people will defend them.

    probablyaCat ,

    You didn't answer the question.

    In reference to a settler murdering someone, even though you didn't ask, my response is that they should be arrested and if guilty then they should be punished under Israeli law for murder. Doesn't always happen. But it is what I would do.

    But actually answer the question. You're in power now. What do you do?

    bingbong ,
    1. Stop settlements, then expel the settlers
    2. Stop raiding Al-Aqsa

    That alone would be a definitive improvement

    probablyaCat ,
    1. They did that. In Gaza. And it went really poorly if you haven't noticed. Which is actually why settlement in the West Bank started getting much stronger support within the government and from the population at large. So now you're fighting the war on two fronts?
    2. Don't pretend like it's only Al-Aqsa. Also, it's not typically the Israeli government that does this. Mostly the Haredi. So how will you do this? And what will occur when you come up with the anti-raiding plan?

    Does any of this stop Hamas from attacking the country you're supposed to be protecting?

    So what have you accomplished?

    bingbong ,

    You’re an idiot, stop all settlers not just some of them. Gaza and the west bank. If the Israeli government has the power to level Gaza, they have the power reign in the “haredi”. What in the world do you mean by:

    Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa

    You mean the second-most holy place in Islam?

    You’ve very clearly already made up your mind, why ask so many pointed questions if you’re not interested in understanding any other POV?

    probablyaCat ,

    I'm an idiot. For knowing that the plan was to leave Gaza entirely, then leave the West bank with some settlements being dismantled and some to be dealt with in future negotiations. But the catastrophe that was the Gaza withdrawal halted that plan entirely.

    And third holiest site in Islam. But the temple mount which Jews are kept from visiting most of the time, is the holiest site in Judaism. Which is why I said don't pretend it is only al aqsa.

    I'm clearly a supporter of Israel. But I try to understand multiple sides. Doesn't mean I have to think every side is right. Concerning the temple mount and al aqsa, I would prefer both groups get along and share. I don't like Bibi and loathe ben Gvir. And while I absolutely do think continuing ahead with a withdrawal plan for west bank would've made Israel less safe, I do wish they hadn't increased settlements.

    filister ,

    Seriously how would you feel if someone tomorrow comes to your house and kicks you out. Then puts you in an open air prison, restricts your right of movement immensely, treats you like a second class human being. Are you really so naïve?

    probablyaCat ,

    If you think that is an adequate description of the history of the area then your problem is clearly a total lack of education or research on the topic.

    First, we need a starting point. At what point in history should we consider the people living in the region as indigenous? Concerning the open air prison, that's mostly used in reference to Gaza. So did Israel put them there or are they indigenous? Also, they have a border with Egypt too. Why is that border not working out?

    I'm not naive. I am fully aware that the entire region has a very complicated history. One that you can't distill into a couple of lazy catch phrases. And there is a mix of good and bad things for everyone involved. You say Israel treats then as second class. Have you ever read the Hamas charter? Especially the pre 2017 charter. See what it says about women, Jews, religion. See what it implies about LGBT rights.

    You call me naive. But, ask yourself, what history do you know of the region. And what are things you're just parroting?

    Annoyed_Crabby ,

    giving back west bank, withdraw all the illegal settler from there, pay reparation fee for the damage the illegal settler and IDF caused(for both physical, mental, and property), stop spying in others country, publicly apologise for the decades of atrocity the previous administration caused. In return for them to release the hostage, start deradicalize plan, and sign peace treaty with the backing of UN for long lasting peace within the region.

    What would YOU do if you’re in power?

    probablyaCat ,

    First a response then I'll answer your question. Read up on the camp David accords with Clinton. The Israelis were offering like 91% of the land back the green line and trying to find some middle ground concerning Jerusalem. But especially read up about the 2004-05 withdrawal from Gaza. They did with Gaza what you are suggesting with the west bank. And it become a breeding ground for terrorist attacks. Originally the plan was Gaza first, as an olive branch, then the west bank, then further peace negotiations to establish firm borders. But the outcome with Gaza was horrific and all political capital was lost. And Hamas has stated it will not negotiate and will not accept peace deals negotiated by the PA. You cannot suggest things that have been tried and pretend that the past didn't happen and that things will just work out. Israel has been there, done that.

    So acknowledging the real world history of the situation, if I was in charge, then the goal is to change the playing field. Israel did this with Gaza before with the wall they are oft criticized for building. And it stopped all the suicide bombings that had been happening. So I'd have two goals. An even more secure border, probably talking a dmz area, and to wipe out as many known Hamas officials as I possibly can. Their power structure must be so disrupted that they it will take extended time for any organization to happen. This allows for other people (probably Fatah would be the goal) to replace them. Make it clear that my country is going nowhere and that the other side needs a new plan if they want security. After doing these things, then and only then, do we go back to the negotiating table. Do I like these things? No. But again history and my responsibilities. History tells us this can work. General Sherman. WWII with Japan. Is it a guarantee to work? No. But the status quo definitely does not work. And my responsibility is first to provide security for the people in my country. I would certainly take notes from ww2 concerning the rebuilding efforts, but that also required unconditional surrender from the Japanese. So long as there was peace, my government would be first in line to offer assistance (which was an established thing between the PA and Israel... But Hamas changed that. In fact it was their main platforms and why they were elected).

    filister ,

    And Wikipedia tends to disagree with you. The issue is more complex and you cannot blame only one of the parties for the outcome.

    So your solution is to drop an “atomic bomb” over Gaza in order to get their unconditional surrender? And ”atomic bomb" here is a metaphor. Did it cross your mind that WWII could have been avoided if the treatment of Germany wasn’t so unfair after the WWI and putting them to a corner, desperate people choose desperate solutions, and I strongly believe that if Gazans were treated better, Hamas would have never been elected.

    Think about it. And your link with Japan is really terrible, as they had been subject to fire bombs, two atomic bombs, so don’t repeat past mistakes.

    probablyaCat ,

    My solution is to remove Hamas from any authority. Let them be replaced with a more reasonable authority (Fatah was supposed to have a united government with them but Hamas wouldn't actually do it). Stabilize and secure my country. And then try to help rebuild Gaza and negotiate firm borders with Palestine.

    Now there are definitely people in the Israeli government who don't believe it can and/or should happen. I know the history of Likud and Begin. I'm aware of the ideas of Revisionist Zionism and Jabotinsky (not really a fan btw). It's safe to say that if I had been around at the time I definitely would've been with the lefty socialist Jews, not with the right wingers. Although even Bibi signed on to Oslo iirc.

    I understand that the situation is fucked. But when you are in a fucked situation, you have to deal with it given the constraints of it being fucked. I understand some people on both sides may have bad intentions. But Hamas is platformed as opposed to peace. With Israel, that situation is not the same. Just as the Gaetz doesn't represent the entire US government, neither does ben Gvir. Israel is a developed state with a secular government and the majority are not out to take over all of Palestine.

    Honestly the big difference in opinion here lies in the fact that a lot of people here who are against Israel and screaming genocide really just don't say what they actually think. That they think Jews have no right to be in Israel and that they should pick up and leave. They know nothing about the history of the region and they just parrot the same shit.

    filister ,

    People oppose your government and their policies against Palestinians. People oppose illegal settlements and forceful displacement of people. People oppose Gazans being treated like second class human beings. People oppose human rights violations, carpet bombings entire residential neighbourhoods, and so much more.

    Likudis complicit with Hamas, they have never looked for a peaceful solution. Instead they were continuously antagonizing Palestinians. Their rule is fuelled by the hatred for Palestinians by the fear. For that they need to put Palestinians into a corner which they systematically do so that they can generalise the whole population and portray them as blood seeking.

    And funnily enough Hamas also needs Likud to survive. They need them for the same reason.

    Hamas’ military wing in Gaza is around 30K people. Compare that to 2.3Mln. Mostly from uneducated boys whose whole life were living in pretty shitty conditions. 80% of the population of Gaza depends on humanitarian aid. You can’t even fathom what it’s like living there. And I am sure if you were on the other side of the fence you would have had a completely different mindset.

    And you know what the most surprising thing for me is, that Jews as a population have been oppressed during the years so much, and yet you are fine with your government to do exactly that to another population.

    This only comes to prove that humanity is dead! We as species won’t survive with this attitude. That history taught us nothing!

    shalafi ,

    It’s a fair question folks. Stop with the downvotes. Answer it, or don’t.

    probablyaCat ,

    Jokes on them. I'm on kbin so I don't even see the downvotes.

    sirboozebum ,

    So brave

    JimmyMcGill ,

    He is just being pedantic and downright ignoring the people that actually replied to his question. So he is clearly not arguing in good faith. Downvote is more than justified

    probablyaCat ,

    How am I being pedantic, and I've responded to almost everyone who actually said what they would do.

    filister ,

    By killing more than 4000 civilians, causing a humanitarian crisis on purpose, carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods and displacing hundreds of thousands of people.

    So in what world that’s fair?

    Why9 ,

    Over 1000 children alone have been brutally murdered by the terrorist nation of Israel since they declared this war only a few days ago.

    They’re doing to Palestine what the Nazis did to them, only this time the world is watching and not even looking away. They’re encouraging it, and even sending in resources to help them do it, and punishing people for even speaking out against it.

    They don’t deserve to even mention Auschwitz after this. There are plenty of Jews out there who are opposed to it whose sympathies about WWII will forever stay with us. But not these… Copycats.

    probablyaCat ,

    The Holocaust involved the Nazis gathering up whole populations, unprovoked, and sending them to ghettos, concentration camps, and then extermination camps. While the world population has nearly quadrupled since WW2, the Jewish population only just reached their pre-holocaust levels recently. They starved them, worked them to death, tortured and experimented on them, and then tried to murder the rest en masse with gas.

    Gaza certainly has a blockade. And I do not approve of everything that Israel does, even when I can understand the rationale. But let us be absolutely clear. That blockade is absolutely less controlled than even the ghettos of Warsaw. Not to mention, they share a border with an entirely different country with whom they have been free to form diplomatic relations with and could have had freedom of movement, supplies, etc through for 18 years now. Longer, really but I'll use the minimum value. But they haven't even done that. Why? Because the group from Hamas formed also performed terrorism in Egypt.

    At no point has any of this been unprovoked. At no point has this looked anything like Auschwitz. I have repeatedly seen the population density of Gaza brought up (6,507/km2). The Warsaw ghetto had 450,000 people in 3 km2. So in case you don't like math, that's about 150,000/km2.

    Auschwitz, which apparently I shouldn't mention but I'm going to, had at least 1.3 million prisoners. At least 1.1 million were killed. That was one camp out of several.

    The situation in Gaza is terrible and sad. But you don't get say it is the same as the Holocaust. That Israel is doing the same thing. This isn't unprovoked. Even now, they are holding hostages. They've continued to fire rockets. They have dug up their own infrastructure to make rockets. At no point have they even tried to be self sufficient. Nor have they tried... not attacking Israel. Attacking Israel (actually, attacking the Jews more generally according to the charter), establishing an Islamic state in the entire region and removing Israel from the map. That's the platform on which Hamas was elected. Show me where the Jews of Europe took over Poland and attacked Germany. Show me where Germany dealt with those attacks for decades, including providing utilities and healthcare to Poland during that time.

    I will not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I will assume you are simply an uneducated fool who wants to push a narrative, rather than a malicious antisemite. The un-cited number of deaths (I'm guessing the only source you'll find is the Hamas government... the one that said over 500 died after Israel bombed a hospital a couple days back) that you stated don't even compare to just the Warsaw Ghetto. The death toll for the entire conflict in Israel and Palestine don't even compare to just the deaths in the Warsaw Ghetto. The situation is entirely different. Your statement is absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed. You can argue and oppose Israel's tactics. You can even argue that this fits some definitions of ethnic cleansing if you want. But you don't get to say what you said without being an absolutely disgusting person.

    filister ,

    So your whole reasoning is that because Jewish people have been oppressed in the past give them a carte blanche to oppress other people?

    Didn’t you think that Hamas is in power because of the ill treatment and oppression of the Palestinians?

    Do you think that the Nazi party would come into force if it wasn’t the Versailles treaty, that put the German people into a corner, with hyperinflation and no hope in sight. Can’t you see the parallels?

    When did violence have given birth to something good?

    probablyaCat ,

    Where did I say anything about them having carte blanche to oppress? Where did I say their oppression gave them any rights? I didn't. I said that why9 was disgusting for what they said and explained why.

    And no. I do not think Hamas is only in power due to things Israel has done. Beyond existing. The Muslim brotherhood existed before Israel. They have spring up in most countries that have a major Muslim population as Islamic extremists. They want a unified Muslim state under Sharia law. Even if Israel did not exist, Hamas would likely still exist in the region in some form telling the ruling powers they aren't Islamic enough. And killing people. Gay people. Women who want to have equal rights. Atheists. People who decide they don't want to be Muslim. World leaders who sign peace treaties.

    Yeah it's pretty accepted now that the harsh punishments post WWI created the perfect environment for ww2. But it is also accepted that appeasement to Germany to prevent ww2 was a really bad idea as well. Parallels only go so far. I was not drawing a parallel in my above comment. I was explaining how very different the Holocaust was from the Palestinian territories.

    Umm violence ended pretty much every war. Civil war and slavery and all that (in the U.S.). WW2 (that ending was real violent). Non-violence is definitely preferable, but it isn't always an option.

    veganpizza69 ,
    @veganpizza69@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4d9857a1-f4cd-4f65-a0cc-b279ec6aa508.png

    nefurious_krankstar ,
    @nefurious_krankstar@lemmy.world avatar

    It seems the only solution to the conflict is the most inhumane, and both sides know this. Maybe the conflict is better than the solution.

    MataVatnik ,
    @MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

    Would it be a a final solution of sorts? Sounds familiar

    bingbong ,

    They also unironically have been using “the Palestinian Question”

    So damn infuriating

    seathru ,

    Maybe the conflict is better than the solution.

    Please expound.

    nefurious_krankstar ,
    @nefurious_krankstar@lemmy.world avatar

    If only genocide can resolve the conflict, I’d be happier with the conflict as is. (Unlike all those facists downvoting my comment)

    DogMuffins ,

    “We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of solutions, so we’ll have to genocide them”

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