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Let us show Putin we have ability to hit targets deep inside Russia, Ukraine urges west

Ukraine wants permission from the west to use long-range Storm Shadow missiles to destroy targets deep inside Russia, believing this could force Moscow into negotiating an end to the fighting.

Senior figures in Kyiv have suggested that using the Anglo-French weapons in a “demonstration attack” will show the Kremlin that military sites near the capital itself could be vulnerable to direct strikes.

The thinking, according to a senior government official, is that Russia will consider negotiating only if it believes Ukraine had the ability “to threaten Moscow and St Petersburg”. This is a high-risk strategy, however, and does not so far have the support of the US.

Ukraine has been lobbying for months to be allowed to use Storm Shadow against targets inside Russia, but with little success. Nevertheless, as its army struggles on the eastern front, there is a growing belief that its best hope lies in counter-attack.

Zerlyna ,
@Zerlyna@lemmy.world avatar

Do it now, ask forgiveness later. It’s the American way.

Thewhizard ,

I know it’s ludicrous to need to ask for permission. I’m sure they won’t get it.

Kbobabob ,

Do you think they would continue being funded and given the equipment if they don’t?

tabarnaski ,

Might be the American way, but it’s mainly Europe that will take the heat in an all out war against Russia.

Also, how does it end? Anyone really thinks Putin will surrender after 3-4 missiles hit Moscow? Come on.

_bcron ,

It’d be a little harder for a lot of civilians to be indifferent towards this whole war if it saunters up and starts banging on their front door

Edit: it’s a metaphor. Dude asked how 3-4 bombs would end the war and most things in a war aren’t meant to outright end it. Right now the whole thing is ‘out of sight out of mind’ for most people but if targeted strikes on infrastructure hit local news you bet you’re ass it’d be demoralizing

cynar ,

The message wouldn’t be to Putin directly. It would be to those both in his power base, or capable of disrupting it.

The goal would be to push Russians to the point they deal with Putin internally, and/or put putin in a position where he needs to end the war to stabilise his own position. It’s all about making the right people feel the effects.

Oh, and as a European, I think the risk is acceptable. If Putin struck at a NATO country, the results would likely be swift and short. The only unknown would be Russian nukes, and even those are far more of an unknown than most people think.

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

Who would miss the kremlin anyway?

ricecake ,

An all out war is unlikely, since if NATO involvement was going to kick that off it would have done so by now.
The next point of escalation that could start something bigger would be stuff like NATO openly sending troops or actively providing fire support.

US hesitation to allow our hardware to be used for this type of attack is much more to do with the political issues surrounding the war being framed as a proxy war instead of defensive support.
The electorates support for “saving the day” and “superior US hardware helping keep a country free” is high. Support for a protracted and complex proxy war without clear right and wrong sides is exhausting and hits too many Iraq/Afghanistan buttons for people to care.

Asking for and publicly being denied permission to bomb targets adjacent to the capitol does just as well at communicating “we can bomb your capitol” as actually doing it.

Nurse_Robot ,

I assume the risk is if they do strike without approval, the critical support they’re receiving could end

foggy ,

Nah, more like chewed out. 🤠

AngryCommieKender ,

I’ve been chewed out before.

humorlessrepost ,

Jolly Rancher

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Just ask Cambodia

PrizerFantastic ,
@PrizerFantastic@lemmy.wtf avatar

That’s what you do to your wife

qooqie ,

It’s Israel’s playbook and it works literally every time

sheogorath ,

Israel doesn’t even ask for forgiveness.

DontRedditMyLemmy ,

“Ukraine has the right to defend itself”

citrusface ,

Kick them in the balls. They aren’t fighting fair so why should you.

Antmz22 ,

The west is stopping Ukraine from doing this for their own good.

The west wants to drag out the war to bleed out Russia.

Seriously Striking Moscow (for example) would almost certainly result in a swift, all out retaliation from Russia towards Ukraine.

The western media might not like to portray it as such, but this is still largely an excursion using older equipment and avoiding mass mobilization, preferring to send “endesirables” like criminals or the poor, for Russia, while Ukraine has been running out of equipment and men.

This is a case of “fog of war” or not seeing the forest for the trees with Ukraine, the west isn’t as biased in their analysis of the situation.

Stern ,
@Stern@lemmy.world avatar

but this is still largely an excursion using older equipment and avoiding mass mobilization

I’m more inclined to think that that Russia is a paper tiger and the mass corruption in the country has fucked up any modern equipment they have to the point of unusability.

Antmz22 ,

And you are certainly free to think so.

I disagree. If Russia didn’t still have plenty left in the tank, Europe wouldn’t be so scared of upsetting them.

Idk why I’m downvoted so heavily for not thinking Russia is a weak baby when the care being taken by Europe and the West with regards to this war suggests that the people who know best agree.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously Striking Moscow (for example) would almost certainly result in a swift, all out retaliation from Russia towards Ukraine.

A large portion of the Russian military has been held in reserve for defense, on the grounds that a full NATO invasion could decapitate the regime (a la Iraq in 2003).

Lemmyites are convinced the Russian military is entirely exhausted and these suicide incursions represent territory Ukrainians can actually hold. But there’s much more of a long game at play, as Europe and Russia wage a proxy was of attrition across Central Europe, Central Africa, and the Middle East.

krashmo ,

The only thing I’m convinced of is the fact that you’re talking like a Russian psy-ops agent. You may not be one but at minimum you’re doing their work for them.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

you’re talking like a Russian psy-ops

I’m old enough to remember “Baghdad Bob” from the '03 Iraq invasion. We used to make fun of that shit, but now everyone talks like him.

Russian media insists they’re on the cusp of total victory. Ukrainian media insists the Russians are on the verge of collapse. And disagreeing with either one means you’re a spook.

Badeendje ,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, the whole “they’re not sending their best” Spiel was debunked in the first 6 months. The Russian equipment losses favored high end stuff at the beginning of the war and has been declining ever since. And the Russians have been activating older stuff ever since. Which is visible in the loss data.

A lot of conscripts are indeed not in the war, but judging by performance of the Kursk defense, there is reason to doubt the ability of these forces. Although quantity is a quality by its own right.

ricecake ,

Eh, it’s been old equipment and concripts for a bit now, but that’s not what the sent at first.

Trying to take a country using your C team and old hardware and then scaling up if things go badly is a radically bad strategy. It’s a great way to lose your C team, and then send more competent soldiers to fight against a prepared and well defensed enemy.

That might be what Russia did, but if so it’s a show of incompetence about in line with everything else we’ve seen and not some “better slow down” signal.

Antmz22 ,

Eh, it’s been old equipment and concripts for a bit now, but that’s not what the sent at first.

Yes at the very beginning they just wanted to make a strong push for the “Special Operation” grab and we saw the results, they weren’t good for Ukraine but Ukraine still did better than Russia expected.

When Russia realizes the “special operation” was actually going to have to be a war of attrition, they decided to scale back and basically just hold the area while using up old equipment and draining Ukraine which has much less reserved.

Trying to take a country using your C team and old hardware and then scaling up if things go badly is a radically bad strategy. It’s a great way to lose your C team

Hence why in the initial attempt at taking the country, as you say yourself, they used newer equipment. They switch to older equipment only when they realized it was going to be a long battle regardless. It’s worth noting the Ukraine was largely using older equipment as well with that being what the west was supplying. Using older equipment first isn’t a unique or rare strategy.

Also Russia doesn’t care if they lose the Z team, they fully expect to go through Z, Y, V etc. The hope is Ukraine won’t be able to last long enough for them to start running into trouble.

then send more competent soldiers to fight against a prepared and well defensed enemy.

Or it’s a great way to weaken the enemy and send the better troops to clean up. The entire C team might be less valuable than half the B team.

That might be what Russia did, but if so it’s a show of incompetence about in line with everything else we’ve seen and not some “better slow down” signal.

I believe it’s both. The entire invasion has been a show of incompetence from the beginning, but Russia just has the ability to out force Ukraine if need be. They just have to feel justified/like that’s their best option.

fuckingkangaroos ,

They’re saving their best troops for if their initial assault fails defending the border defending Moscow city limits

Antmz22 ,

They’ve always been saving their best for if NATO gets directly involved. Something none of the parties involved (outside of Ukraine themselves) want, because everyone knows that it would be a difficult war and not a stroll through Moscow.

However if Ukraine was to start posing an actual threat to the core of the nation, they wouldn’t continue waiting around being cautious until they lost because of it.

Europe and the west are hesitant to provoke Russia for a reason. Idk why that’s such an unpopular opinion here.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

They aren’t fighting fair

Who fights fair?

peopleproblems ,

Got no arguments from me here. Bring him hell I say.

What are they gonna do? Bomb your cities, schools, hospitals?

Think we’re past the point of asking for permission at this point.

badbytes ,

If they claim they are just shooting at Hamas, the US won’t interfere.

eran_morad ,

We should hasten the destruction of russia as a geopolitical entity. By all means other than direct military confrontation.

fuckingkangaroos ,

Honestly I’d be so happy for the people there to get out from under Muscovite oppression. As a resource-rich country it could be truly great. Instead, a barbaric war of conquest.

IphtashuFitz ,

Sooner or later Ukraine will start manufacturing their own such weapons. They have demonstrated time and again that they the ability to be creative and do what the world never expected of them.

Holding them back at this point is just prolonging the war.

humorlessrepost ,

Holding them back at this point is just prolonging the war.

“Oh noooo!” - Military Industrial Complex

thebestaquaman ,

Let them use the ATACMS too.

andrew_bidlaw ,
@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

And where’s Putin? The last I’ve heard he was in another country.

DefiantBidet ,

My concern with this approach would be the unhinged retaliatory response from the world’s. Richest dictator. I mean I’m just a pothead from the US so I imagine some military strategist has accounted for this… But it’s kinda hard to imagine how crazy is gonna act

chronicledmonocle ,

As long as their demonstration is against military targets (and not what Israel would classify as a “military targets”), I say let them. Bomb every Russian military base within 200 miles of Ukraine into a crater. Russia only seems to respond to a show of force, unfortunately with its current leadership, so give it to them.

I just feel bad for the Russians who have to live under Putin’s rule. I know several Russians who have fled Russia to avoid drafts or persecution. Hearing them talk about how they “probably will never be able to go home again” is heartbreaking.

PrizerFantastic ,
@PrizerFantastic@lemmy.wtf avatar

Ukraine can eat my shit

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot ,

The Guardian - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)Information for The Guardian:
> MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
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