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catloaf , (edited )

She […] denounced Hamas as a brutal terrorist organisation that triggered the war

Harris, you’re wrong and you know it. This is only the latest battle in a war that has been going on for decades.

And the word you’re not saying is genocide.

SamuelRJankis ,

As a Canadian I feel like people who support our right wing politicians are very generous with the accuracy of what they say and their American counterparts are even more so.

Yet somehow the Progressive side is held to this unusual standard where they’re constantly painted as the villain if they’re off by the slightest bit.

catloaf ,

Expecting the right wing to do anything good is futile. If they were going to, they wouldn’t be in the right wing. The Democrats can be pushed left. There is no point in setting standards you know someone will never meet. Some Democrats have already called it genocide, so there it’s achievable.

SamuelRJankis ,

In this case is more about what you would get out of Biden, Harris, Vance or Trump.

As long as she’s willing to strongly push for a ceasefire as American you got other things to worry about. And for the record I do agree it’s a genocide.

DancingBear ,

Harris is by no means a progressive, but anyone supporting Israeli government at this point is creepy as fuck

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Out of curiosity, do you always insist people use the term genocide when addressing the Ukrainian invasion, invasion of Ukraine, the sinicization of Tibet, and the Uyghur camps as well? Do you always say the Ukrainian genocide, the Tibetan genocide, and the Uyghur genocide? It’s exactly as correct as the former descriptions.

catloaf ,

I won’t insist on each and every time, but just once would be fantastic.

I personally also don’t say it literally each and every time, but I will say that those examples as also genocide, unequivocally. That’s me on the record, you can quote me on that.

(Also I assume you mean the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the genocide of the Ukrainian people in the invaded areas, not an invasion committed by the Ukrainians, because I’m not aware of that happening anywhere.)

DancingBear ,

We have you on the record…. catloaf

disguy_ovahea ,

Yes, the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I edited for clarity.

My point is both descriptions are accurate, and sensationalism is polarizing. The wrong language could keep her out of office. This reaffirms the understanding that she’s left of Biden and miles from Trump. That may be all the conviction we get before the election. That doesn’t mean that’s all she has to offer.

g0nz0li0 ,

Very well made point, imo.

Pilferjinx ,

Genocide is never okay no matter who commits it. There’s definitely different kinds of genocide so it’s hard use the word to properly define it’s context. That said it’s not used when it’s clearly adequate because politics.

takeda ,

Performing a genocide is trying to wipe out national, ethnical, racial or religious identity. You can do it by outright killing them, or be more sneaky and for example stealing their children and adopting them so they never learn about their heritage.

It doesn’t matter how it is done, but the result you are trying to achieve.

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

Are you equating the war in Ukraine fought between 2 actual armies on relatively equal footing where civilian casualties have been much lower in relative terms (eg. ~500 Ukrainian children dead) and 2 cultural genocides to what we have been seeing for the last year in Gaza? How can you genuinely believe that these things are equivalent? There are horrific abuses that have occurred in all these places but not at the (relative) scale of human suffering that Gaza has seen in terms of starvation, death of civilians and children, disease, displacement and destruction of housing stock and civil society. There are estimates of 90-180 thousand people dead at this point.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

I’m stating that 20,000 Ukrainian children abducted by Russia and put up for adoption to be raised as Russians is genocide.

reuters.com/…/ukrainian-children-abducted-by-russ…

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

Yes, I agree that that is a horrific abuse at mass scale but it is also different from systematically killing those children with nowhere to escape.

disguy_ovahea ,

By definition, it’s genocide. Genocide doesn’t mean “killing children.” It means attempting to eradicate a nation or culture. This wasn’t a discussion of which horrors are more egregious. It’s about the commenter being upset that Harris didn’t label it genocide.

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

Yes, I agree that the cultural genocide aspects are very serious and those responsible should be face punishment. My point is not to minimize the cultural genocides but to say that the physical killing of civilians is a tier above the cultural erasure aspect in the awful calculus that were discussing and Gaza is a much more clear-cut case of that than the others.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Again, the term genocide has nothing to do with severity. Why is it more important to use the term when referring to killing civilian children? Genocide can be committed without killing anyone.

It’s more clear what the atrocities are by referring to innocent women and children being bombed, than it is to simply use the word genocide.

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

Genocide absolutely has to do with severity even if the technical criteria do not explicitly define said severity. That is why more human right lawyers have about been vocal about a genocide occurring in Gaza than have about one occurring Xinjiang. An assessment has to deem war crimes and human rights abuses to amount to genocide along with intent determined through those actions. I urge you to read the OHCHR’s report on Xinjiang and see how they choose their terms carefully despite having evidence for a array of different human rights abuses: www.ohchr.org/…/22-08-31-final-assesment.pdf

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

You misunderstand. I’m saying comparing abducted Ukrainian children to killed Palestinian children is not clarified by the use of the word genocide. They are both genocides. It’s all the more reason that we should be addressing it as the tens of thousands of killed innocent civilian women and children in Gaza.

Are you aware that the Tibetan genocide has been ongoing since 1951? I’ve attended peaceful protests since the 80s on the sinicization of the Tibetan people. They are not recognized as a nation by the UN, so no nations will intervene. Nations around the world just keep buying Chinese products to fund their genocides, and look the other way.

The word genocide describes the intent, not the actions. If the intent is to eradicate a culture or people, regardless of the methods, it is considered genocide. It can be through forced indoctrination of a religion as with Tibetans, through forced adoption of a nationality as with the Ukrainians, through forced sterilization as with the Uyghurs, or through killing people as with Palestinians.

Saying “what’s happening to the Palestinians is worse than what’s happening to Ukrainians, so we should really call that genocide” displays ignorance in both the definition of the word, and comprehension of the events.

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

You’re the one that compared them to imply that if you call this a genocide but not this a genocide then you are not consistent than proceeded to name 3 cultural genocides (with Ukraine’s having potential to become a full blown genocide depending on how the war plays out in my opinion).

If we can’t agree that a killings-based genocide is worse than a cultural erasure genocide then there’s nothing left to talk about. Unless you believe that if the Chinese began systematically killing Tibetans tomorrow that nothing would fundamentally change in your classification.

disguy_ovahea ,

By referring to some as cultural genocide, and others as “full-blown” genocide, you’ve clearly learned nothing from our discussion.

Maybe reading it from the World Without Genocide may help you understand.

worldwithoutgenocide.org/…/china-tibet-and-the-uy…

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

You can apply all of this logic to the Palestinians as well starting from the ethnic cleaning in the 40s and subsequent cultural genocide that culminated in what were seeing today. Clearly it is much worse now compared to all other points barring certain events during the nakba. Everyone involved can see and articulate this which goes back to my point of all types of genocides not being equal.

disguy_ovahea ,

I never said they were equal. The term genocide is what makes them the same. Defining the atrocities in Gaza as the killing of tens of thousands of innocent civilian women and children is what sets it apart. I’ve literally written this in three different comments, yet it’s not sinking in.

Take care.

Sami ,
@Sami@lemmy.zip avatar

You wouldn’t have brought them up if you did not consider them to be at least equal. How many times did you ask people if they called the Palestinian cultural genocide a genocide in 2022 when they brought up Ukraine? Ask yourself why not. Goodbye.

Ensign_Crab ,

Out of curiosity, do you suppose whataboutism is going to make what Netanyahu does suddenly not be a genocide?

Do you think that because Russia and China are doing it, that makes it OK? We’re not selling Russia and China weapons to use in their genocides.

disguy_ovahea ,

Not at all. I’m simply pointing out that the term genocide does not speak to the severity of Israel’s crimes, only the implied intent. Genocide can be committed without killing anyone. It’s important to state that tens of thousands of innocent civilian women and children have been killed by the IDF. The term genocide does not imply those atrocities.

Ensign_Crab ,

Just to make it clear: Do you believe Netanyahu is committing genocide?

disguy_ovahea ,

Absolutely. I’ve also peacefully protested the sinicization of Tibet since the 80s, which is also a genocide. The ignorance around the word being used to imply “worse killing” is maddening. It’s just like the difference between manslaughter and murder. The difference is intent, not egregiousness.

wurzelgummidge ,

It’s easy to say things in the run up to election. I’ll wait and see what she actually does when/if she is elected

Ascyron ,

If only she were the current sitting vice president of the United states of America, I.e. was in a position of power where she and the other members of the executive branch could take action as well as “striking a tough tone”.

Actions, as always, speak louder than words.

Orbituary , (edited )
@Orbituary@lemmy.world avatar

The issue of Palestinian independence has been my longest standing position. I became interested in politics during the second inifada 20+ years ago. It’s been going on longer than that by a longshot.

This is the best we’ve seen in terms of statements. Let’s let her win before we condemn her for shit she can’t act on.

If she gets it and continues to pay lip service only, I’ll agree with your cynicism. Gods know I have enough to go around myself.

feannag ,

Historically the VP has been one of the weakest political positions when it comes to actual power or ability to effect change. Just depends on how much the cabinet/president listen to you.

Shard ,

Unless you were Dick Cheney.

USSMojave ,
@USSMojave@startrek.website avatar

Oh my god, nothing is enough for you people. She’s literally pushing for an immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of the Israeli military and advocating for a 2 state solution. Isn’t that precisely what we want?

disguy_ovahea ,

One state is the real solution. That’s going to take time to rebuild trust. Until then, Biden’s ceasefire agreement and Gaza rebuild plan is a great start.

catloaf ,

Also Israel should pay to rebuild.

sazey ,

How about we start with babysteps of not actively and vigorously committing genocide.

NegativeInf ,

Tell me the actual power of the VP? The buck stops at the top. The decisions of the executive are the final word. She is one voice among many in the Whitehouse and she doesn’t pull the levers. She can’t force Biden to do whatever she wants. That’s now how it works. She can suggest, she can inform, she can advise, but ultimately, until January, it’s Biden making decisions.

schnurrito ,

The Vice President’s only constitutional power is to break ties in the Senate, which is not a very relevant power.

FiniteBanjo ,

Netanyahu: “Please stop withholding weapons and support, please seriously guys cut it out”

TIME Magazine: “Is Netanyahu dragging out the conflict for political benefit?”

Biden: “There is every reason for people to draw that conclusion.”

Kamala Harris: “I will not be silent.”

Hexbear: “Congress gives Netanyahu Standing Ovation, blood on hands of every US lawmaker, US President personally responsible for tens of thousands of deaths directly.”

disguy_ovahea ,

Did you watch the video?

Republicans gave Netanyahu a standing ovation.

Dozens of Democrats abstained, the ones who attended remained seated, and Rashida Tlaib held up a sign that said “war criminal.”

FiniteBanjo ,

I insult Hexbear at every opportunity, bunch of dictator cocksuckers they are.

disguy_ovahea ,

As you should. I saw all the memes before watching the video, and was happy to see that it wasn’t the “four-minute standing ovation” I kept hearing about when I finally watched it.

thefartographer ,

They’d probably yell at you if their mouths weren’t full

SSJMarx ,

Ah yes, the truest sign of liberal enlightenment, casual homophobia,

SexualPolytope ,
@SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I’m sorry that no woman has ever sucked your cock.

SSJMarx ,

“it’s not homophobia, it’s misogyny!” is not the defense of the above comment you think it is.

davidagain ,

Sucking cock is a fantastic thing to do for your fellow human, and a true friend loves and appreciates you for it.

But sucking the cocks of dictators, that’s something sensible people everywhere disapprove of. Pretty much every dictator has awful anti-LGBT+ rhetoric and inhumane anti-LGBT+ policies.

SSJMarx ,

Don’t be dense. The poster above me was using “cocksucker” as an insult, which is a go-to homophobic insult, and I called it out. There’s no nuance or subtlety or dictionary lawyering that perfectly clearly expressed sentiment into being anything other than what it is.

sazey ,

Enough with words. We have had almost 10 months of them. Just another talker I bet.

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