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UmeU ,

Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion. Many hundreds or thousands of people die each year doing the pilgrimage, often times from crowd crushes, literally getting squished to death because there are so many people, or just exhaustion.

There are only a few short video clips on YouTube of the massive crowds and it is sort of unnerving seeing that many people in a moving crowd. Super weird what religion makes people do.

There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.

I do hope they find a way to make it safer because people will never stop doing it, but the whole concept just seems absurd to me.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.

If they’d died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C’d movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?

There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.

So much of the modern Saudi state sees the Hajj as little more than a massive tourist attraction. They’re heavily invested in Disney-fying the experience, such that the maximal number of high-paying visitors can slide through the building frictionlessly.

Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren’t supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You’re intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.

What we’re seeing isn’t some toxic religious ideology that Saudi administrators need to cleanse for mass consumption. Instead, we’re seeing a commercialization and stratification of ideology, by which elites get a bespoke Hajj experience and Saudi officials get to operate as gatekeepers of tradition at some astronomical markup.

Zetta ,

Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.

If they’d died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C’d movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?

Well I think religion is one of the few things you can get enough uneducated/dedicated people to die in the hundreds from heat stroke without people being like"I should probably leave"

All the examples you gave, of course except being trapped on a bus, people would realize there is a serious issue and start leaving once the first handful of people died.

“I’m not leaving the theater till I see the end of Iron man 2, I don’t care that half the theaters dead and I’m next!”

EDIT

the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event.

lol, weren’t women not allowed to go alone until recently or still?

UmeU ,

If they’d died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C’d movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?

What a ridiculous statement. No it wouldn’t be better, but when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC? If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat.

Fact is that the Hajj claims thousands of lives every year, all in the name of religion.

Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren’t supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You’re intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.

Yea as long as you aren’t a woman.

Don’t be surprised that people are using religion to grift the gullible and exploit the poor - that’s what religion is best at.

The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks. It’s not like this was some freak accident. This was entirely predictable and this will defiantly continue to happen until protections are put into place.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC?

The Qatar World Cup killed a minimum of 400-500 project workers during construction.

If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat

I wish that were true. But we’ve got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.

The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks.

I couldn’t agree more. Shane they’re cheap ass fucks

UmeU ,

It’s ironic that you cite a country where the government and ruling family are linked inextricably to Islam, but I digress.

I wish that were true. But we’ve got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.

Name any other ongoing event that kills thousands of people every single year like clockwork.

Not trying to argue or anything… I just think that Islam is a foolish religion in the same way that Muslims might think that Mormonism is a foolish religion.

Mormonism is stupid, but if they had an event that killed thousands of people from Utah every year I would like to think that at least OSHA would step in or something.

Treczoks ,

Why Egyptians? Is there a special reason that singled this group out for some reason?

festus ,

I read somewhere that people who fork over money for a special visa to Saudis Arabia have access to air conditioned stations along the way. Most likely the Egyptians are doing it unofficially, which is likely easier to get away being in the general region already.

Doof ,

Somewhere? You mean IN this very article.

festus ,

I hadn’t read this exact article but still commented because I’ve read about the same events in other publications.

vxx ,

Because Egypt and Jordan reported their numbers.

JTskulk ,

Allah works in mysterious ways.

LifeInMultipleChoice ,

Religion murdered these people.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years. Hyper-aggro heatwaves in June is a new thing however. It wasn’t religion, it was climate change.

kamenoko ,

Then the religion should adapt to the climate.

Hadriscus ,

Climate change is caused by religion, specifically capitalism

VirtualOdour ,

Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly, oh no you don’t belive they are communist do you? Handy.

But let’s imagine a perfectly communist society, are workers all able to heat their house? Able to travel freely? Enjoy hobbies? If you answered yes to these then your either going to need magic or energy.

You can’t just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad, unchecked consumption can happen in any system as can over production, ecological destruction, and all sorts of potential problems. I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I’m not going to pretend it’ll fix the climate on its own.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly

Historically, planned economies have had a better track record preserving ecologies and building sustainable infrastructure. That’s largely because the economic planners deal with long-term timelines (five year plans being the standard) rather than quarterly business cycles.

When you’re running a logging company and you have to ask where you’re going to get your next batch of trees in five years or fifty years, you engage in more sustainable harvesting practices than a for-profit fly-by-night that only cares about growing the number of trees chopped down after every round of investment is depleted.

You can’t just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad

Capitalists do a much better job of scaling up industrial infrastructure rapidly, because they do fixate on the short term much more narrowly. Profit-driven practices have rapidly converted our coal-based electricity economy to a natural gas economy. And private speculation has created a booming industry for new technologies - from batteries to cryptocurrencies to LLMs.

But when you run up against the limits of your natural resource supplies, that rapid growth isn’t an economic advantage anymore. You generate far more waste than your communist peers. You spark lots of international conflicts attempting to increase your rate of extraction. And you end up with a very top-heavy unprofessional administrative state, as power consolidates into the hands of financialized aristocrats with little real expertise in the businesses they administer.

In the modern moment, that produces a lot of problems directly attributable to capitalist business practices.

I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I’m not going to pretend it’ll fix the climate on its own.

If the US were to adopt more Communist-championed energy, housing, and transportation policies, it would immediately benefit the global climate.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Here you go buddy: www.celinekeller.com/who-is-afraid-of-degrowth

Hadriscus ,

why are you suddenly attacking me lol

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Good point. Muslims should actually start making this argument against hydrocarbon-based economies.

LifeInMultipleChoice ,

So let me ask you. When some Russians stripped people of their clothes and made them march into the frozen tundra, do you really believe those Russians werent guilty of murder, it was all the tundra’s fault?

Kusimulkku ,

The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years.

With people dying on it, yeah. Religion is why they’re making the trip to the desert

whyalone ,

They all know the consequences and they think God will protect them from whatever… Yeah, religion killed them.

VirtualOdour ,

Yeah that would be a good story and support some preconceived notions but Mecca has always been incredibly hot, you can’t just rewrite history to suit the message you want to send.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Precisely. Mecca has always been incredibly hot and yet pilgrims have not been dropping like flies. Ostensibly because over the centuries certain common religious/pilgrimage practices have helped them cope with the heat. But when climate change moves the needle to 11, those centuries old religious/pilgrimage practices no longer work to protect people.

That is the message I’m trying to send; what’s yours?

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Mecca has always been incredibly hot

What even is the difference between 40°C and 50°C? They’re both “incredibly hot” aren’t they? Quit your complaining.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

I have no idea if you’re joking or not.

BruceTwarzen ,

When a skydiver died skydiving, do you really blame the pilot of the airplane that got him up there? These are adults who choose to believe in fairytales

LifeInMultipleChoice ,

Did the pilot push them out without a parachute? Then yes.

If religion starts condemning people doing this, then they won’t be responsible.

Cyberjin ,

Oof

zerog_bandit ,

How could Israel do this???

NosferatuZodd ,

I don’t see any references or sources at all in the page, and I couldn’t find other news sites with comparable numbers, I call bullshit.

it was reported that there was 41 jordanians who died trying to get to mecca without permits and they slept outside in the sun so that part was true but inflated number, the Egyptians thing is just a lie.

WoahWoah ,

theguardian.com/…/hundreds-of-hajj-pilgrims-die-i…

You can also read the AP or AFP reports, which are easily accessible.

wanderer ,

The new deaths bring the total reported so far by various countries to 577, according to an AFP tally.

The do cite their source.

At least 60 Jordanians also died, the diplomats said, up from an official tally of 41 given earlier on Tuesday by the Jordanian government.

Do you think it’s impossible that 41 people could die, reported on, and then more people die?

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

What’s wrong with you?

Gork ,

They should build a giant enclosure over the Kaaba so it can be air conditioned. Or at the very least put in those mister-fan combos all over the place that are in amusement parks.

NosferatuZodd ,

they do a pretty decent job cooling the place, the problems are outside the kaaba area though, as they can’t cool down all the city,

the jordinians who died were sleeping in the desert as they were without permits and wanted to hide from the authorities.

the Egyptians though were not mentioned on any other news sites I know and I don’t see any references or sources, so I call bullshit.

brbposting ,

Why stop there?

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/d54971b8-d9e0-420e-ab4f-600cfb82d8bc.jpeg

sunzu ,

A small price to pay to worship a pedophile.

geneva_convenience ,

The blatant Islamophobia is what I really missed from Reddit. Thank you for filling that hole

sunzu ,

According to traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad,[94][95][96][97] with the marriage being consummated when she reached the age of nine or ten years old whilst she still played with dolls.[98][b] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty."[106] Beginning in the early twentieth century, Christian polemicists and orientalists attacked what they deemed to be Muhammad's deviant sexuality, for having married an underage[c] girl; acute condemnations came from the likes of Harvey Newcomb and David Samuel Margoliouth while others were mild, choosing to explain how the "heat of tropics" made "girls of Arabia" mature at an early age.[108][114] While most Muslims defended the traditionally accepted age of Aisha with vigor emphasizing on cultural relativism, the political dimensions of the marriage, Aisha's "exceptional qualities" etc., some — Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad in Egypt and others[d] — chose to re-calculate the age and fix it at late adolescence as a tool of social reform in their homelands or even, mere pandering to different audiences.[108][115][e]

In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad

Don't get me started on the current Muslim practices...

Before you start spazzing... this aint Islam specific as we can see Catholic church is notorious pedo org too.

With that being said, I am sorry bad facts hurts your feelz dear.

daniyeg ,

from your comment it seems like you think they deserved to die, and immediately copy pasted your wall of text when someone accused you of racism. not a good look i must say.

sunzu ,

I was mocking the religious practice to honor a pedophile that resulted in people dying. I was accused of being wrong, I provided citation to support my position.

Nice try tho :)

daniyeg ,

yeah your empathy is really showing here.

sunzu ,

i never provided any empathy here...

geneva_convenience ,

When people start dropping Anti Semitic comments everyone gets up in arms. Blatant Islamophobia gets unequivocal praise.

A true Reddit moment.

nonailsleft ,

*pedophobia

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Fear of children?

geneva_convenience ,

Yes all Muslims are married to 9 year olds this is clearly observable by anyone not falling for them trying to hide it in public.

Thanks for your racism.

geneva_convenience ,

The pelgrimage to Mekka where Muslims worship uuuuuhhhhh…

Mohammed! Their God!

Which uhhhh

frantically pastes generic poorly researched Wikipedia article full of contradictions

Pedophile!

Don’t look up the history of anyone from before the 20th century when these supposed Christians suddenly reached enlightenment. The inclusion of Christians is especially weird since they always pushed for younger ages of marriage than Muslims in the middle ages. Back then the Muslims were supposedly prudes.

Wonder why everyone didn’t wait until they were 35 to get married in a time where the average life expectancy was 31 years.

nonailsleft ,

If my life expectancy drops I don’t think it’s going to suddenlyb make me stick my dong into a 9 year old

geneva_convenience ,

Presentism is the fallacy you are looking for.

Humans have even changed their bodies since the middle ages. Menstrual periods are later. Maturity goes slower. People don’t die in 30 years.

Children having their parents die when they are 10 and get married at 20. Or children getting married at 10 and having their parents die at 20. All great choices which we don’t have to make and can moral high ground about.

I could ask why you think dating an 18 year old is fine but a 17 year old is not. Because modern research suggests the brain only finishes development at 25. But of course our sense of “morals” is solely based on arbitrary laws in < present time > in < present location >.

nonailsleft ,

Ah, the Great Cascade of excusing pedophilia

It didn’t happen

Her age was ‘unclear’

Her 9-year-old body was ‘ready for it’ <-- You are here

He had to plow her, as her parents could die any day <-- Moving here

Why would there be a problem with a 50-year old ‘dating’ a 9-year old <-- Nice to see that thrown in

She loved him

She was begging for it

Furthermore, your excuses just confirm Sunzu’s allegation that ‘modern’ Muslims have not ‘moved on’ from these practices - they use them to excuse legalizing and enabling pedophilia today. Muhammad set the bar for them. And he set it very, very low.

geneva_convenience , (edited )

You striped away points never mentioned and did not answer the question about the age of 25.

100 years ago the age of consent in Delaware was 7 years old. Your argument has been a non issue for the entire history of humanity until last 100 year until your magic universal definition of a chil turning adult at 18 took place.

And let’s not forget the age of consent being 12 in many American places up to recently.

But nonetheless nobody takes this dumb moral highgrounding serious as the secular west is currently committing a Genocide on mostly children in a concentration camp in Gaza. But those are of course not children they are “terrorists” who are allowed to be killed.

nonailsleft ,

Seems I forgot the last line:

Try to change the subject

geneva_convenience ,

You are doing that indeed

Anamnesis ,

Muslims do not generally believe in cultural or moral relativism. Allah is the one true God, his moral teachings are objectively correct. Why offer them a way out that they themselves aren’t able to coherently accept?

Besides, cultural relativism is nonsense. If someone tells me it’s okay to molest children, their perspective is not “just as valid” as mine. They’re a monster.

Yes, this means a lot of people in the past, and today, are monsters. That’s extremely plausible.

geneva_convenience ,

Society committing Genocide on children and calling them terrorists suddenly are very worried about when a girl of menstrual age willingly gets married.

sunzu ,

Bro this melt down... stop.

  1. Calling 10yo a girl mestrual age is really stretching what that means. Stop digging your own hole. You really need to consider what you are really saying here. The optics are beyond bad. I hope you really don't think that.
  2. This has nothing to with the Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign in Gaza. Pretty sure most people can agree that Mohammed was a pedo and Israel is a committing war crimes.

Frankly you mixing the two together is not appreciated.

geneva_convenience ,

Who is having a meltdown, you?

If she had a menstruation she was of menstrual age. And if she then willingly got married that’s her own decision.

You were bringing up moral “evolution”.

Simply pointing out that a society electing leaders knowing they will commit Genocide on little babies does not appear morally evolved really hits a nerve.

Would you suggest I refer to all Americans as “baby murderers”?

sunzu ,

Age is just a number... Prison is just a place.

I am assumining you would let 50yo geatric clown fuck your child at 10?

Obviously as long as she consents!

sunzu ,

Not sure why in 2024 we still making excuses for pedohiles...

Christian clergy notorious pedos, nothing is done...

Other cultures bending out of shape to explain away their own pedophiles as this thread shows...

I am assume these are adult people and likely men. Are they pathetic or are they just pushing pedophilia?

claudiop ,

the history of anyone before the 20th century

Does it count when talking about prophets, deities, gods and such? Weren’t they meant to be perfect?

I don’t recall the possibility of god and his messangers being imperfect, in any century.

We humans, we are flawed and have societies whose notions are not static because we evolve. God can’t afford the excuse of “errors of the past, I evolved”

geneva_convenience ,

You are ascribing evolution to a society of warmongers committing Genocide on children in Palestine. A society addicted more to wealth than human suffering trying to lecture people on what correct morals are.

A society with an abundance of food where people are starving.

I would reconsider how correct the Wests morals are.

claudiop ,

I didn’t even specify any religion. I just said that god, any god, by definition, can’t evolve.

This ain’t Hercules adventures where gods are just sky humans with perks. Mainstream gods (&co) are all perfect in their “mysterious ways”.

As such, if a prophet was into pedophilia, then either pedophilia is right (which I personally find odd… but them I’m merely human…) or that prophet wasn’t exactly the most exemplary lad.

Whatever the case, people’s lives are worth of dignity, be it Palestinians, Israelis, South Africans or Santa. That’s not what I was arguing against at all. We can defend people while, at the same time, pointing the finger out at some bullshit they do.

The west is also full of bullshit. So what? We can also point the finger at that. Be my guest. I never said that we were perfect.

geneva_convenience ,

The discussion is so shunned in Western society that it is well understood one should always repeat your opinion in public and never question it.

I would once again ask why teenagers having sex is regarded as totally normal as long as long as the person they are having sex with is not 18 yet.

If teenagers truly should not be subject to sexual experiences because they are not ready then surely this would not be normal. Or is it okay if a victim performs the deed?

claudiop ,

That’s not the case in my western country but sure, hit that scarecrow. I personally know underage people dating 25-ish people.

What is frowned upon is people in completely different levels of maturity creating a tremendous imbalance, and usually abuse. DiCaprio dating teens is not a “we stand on an equal footing and love each other” kind of thing, is a “I’m famous and will use this fact to mess with teenagers”.

An elderly hardly has a healthy relationship with a teenager, and this is particularly true for arranged marriages.

This western civilization thing of your already had that in the past. We stopped doing that rather recently as we figured it creates more trouble than not. Let’s not pretend that “western” is some sort of axiom that just appeared and not the product of the evolution of some society. Just like eastern societies have such evolutions in some aspects. For example some eastern civilisations figured that clean spaces are better and so they try real hard to try to keep them that way. Of course you’re free to argue that this cleanliness is not needed so it is a purely subjective thing of these societies and not necessarily better, but sociologists night disagree.

As for “ok if the victim preforms the deed”, that’s irrelevant. The same criteria applies. Promoting healthier relationships promotes a healthier society. If some 14/yo teenager is obsessed with dating way older men for whatever reason, chances are people are going to judge it, legal or not, no matter the society.

geneva_convenience ,

Society had no issues with this for the past millenia. This new social construct of adulthood and finding it weird is far more recent. Mohammed’s first wife was 41 when he was 25. Age differences at the time were far more usual.

Granted that our culture now changes so fast that it would mean someone that grew up with Madonna and someone that grows up with Skibidi toilet would get together. The generational cultural gaps are far greater than in the past. But this is overcome when people spend time together.

The only real reason that people can use is that a younger person can be easier to manipulate. Which holds an element of truth but the question remains at what age we allow a person full control over their actions. Currently this is 18. Yet research suggests the brain is only fully matured at 25. So will the new age be 25?

The Leonardo DiCaprio example is a classic one. Most people that say they would never act similar to Dicaprio will do so once they are actually presented with the option. It is moral highgrounding purely based on never having been presented with the option.

claudiop ,

Everyone considers stealing wrong. Everyone condemns big fat pigs robbing millions from the financial system wrong. If I had to place a bet, most people would of they had the chance. The fact people are hypocritical doesn’t mean it is not condemnable. DiCaprio is a piece of shit in a lot of people’s mind, just not in the judicial system.

No shit that a lot of middle-aged or maybe elderly man would enjoy 16 year old teasing them. Not so much for woman but if I had to bet it would happen as well. Our sex drive plays a lot here. Back in the we’re animals in nature thingy, putting dicks into young women was almost always a “good thing”; propagating genes and stuff. Just so happens that we’re trying not to behave like wild beasts anymore.

The brain would ideally be fully matured before one is to take life-long decisions, however 25 years is an awful lot of time. My armchair sociologist says that people would not tolerate that for the same reason people do not tolerate expecting for their kids to be 25 before allowing them to cross the road by themselves. Maturity is not a linear thing. At the age of 5 you’ll try to kill yourself every now and then. At the age of 10 you barely do that. 18 is an arbitrary line, yes, because it is believed that most people at that age are able to figure life long decisions well-enough. People still get some sparks of development after 18, but it is nowhere compared to the 5-10 or the 10-15.

You state that age differences at the time were far more common. Well, at the time most marriages were arranged and considered plenty of things above the wellbeing of the brides.

In any case, we’re working around my key argument. We’re all silly animals, but god and it’s prophets are supposed to be perfect. You can point a finger at them for that. Yes, fuck Francis. That guy is a piece of shit as well and points fairly well at the bullshit that Christianity is. This is not a anti-muslim rant; it is a “can we condemn condemnable people that were supposed to know what they were doing as they were ‘perfect’?”

geneva_convenience ,

You are correct in your assessment of perfection. But the question is what is perfect morality. And mostly one of where to draw the line. The equation with stealing and murder is questionable as that has been a moral wrong through all of humanity. Whereas this debate is mostly one of the last 100 years. In the past this objective morality had never existed thus I question whether it is as objective as you make it seem. When you go a few generations back you’ll usually find your great-great grandfather was a 25 year old dude that married as 13-15 year old.

Flipping to the modern age I knew a 19 year old guy that was ashamed of dating a 17 year old because he felt other people thought there was too big of an age gap. A mere two year difference. The “objective morality” on this subject really appears to be “whatever everyone else thinks about it”. Even funnier is that a 60 year old dating a 30 year old is suddenly becoming predatory too. The last 10-20 years people are starting to condemn two “mature adults” with a large age gap for having a relationship. DiCaprio is a perfect example of this. He violates no laws nor “morals” but somehow is wrong.

The brain would ideally be fully matured before one is to take life-long decisions, however 25 years is an awful lot of time.

If were morally consistent we would acknowledge that if the brain is “fully matured” at 25 that the age of consent would be 25…But as that is currently not the societal norm we see no reason to accept this. If society had already changed into this logic I am quite sure you would adhere to it as well. Especially seeing that there would now be a “scientific reasoning” behind it. And it would be even more difficult to convince you because now I would have to argue with science. Yet we stick to this very arbitrary number of 18. Even you are saying 18 is okay and 16 is weird. I cannot comprehend this. Make it 25.

Just so happens that we’re trying not to behave like wild beasts anymore.

The question of consent is a very emphasized one that was introduced back then. Before the prophet consent was an arbitrary cause. Women were regarded as property at that time. Suddenly men had to actually appeal to a woman to marry her. Even in modern day if a woman does not wish to get married at a young age there is absolutely no reason for her to do so. The legal permissible age refers to the age at which a woman gets control to decide. It does not force her to get married. It only presents her with the right to do so.

We still condone sexual intercourse between teenagers and accept that when they reach puberty some have a desire to become sexually active. We have not mitigated this in fact we promote safe sex in schools and say experimenting is totally fine. We have only restricted it to other “children”. We made the age gap a defining factor in what we deem okay, and don’t say that “children” are being “raped” by other “children”. Once again, I can’t find moral consistency in this. If the brain’s finished age is 25 why do we condone a 17 and 15 year old, but not a 19 and 17 year old? And now even between “adults” this age gap is coming into play.

There appears to be no coherent argument. Everything that is deemed okay is based on current traditions and the “science” is ignored.

el_abuelo ,

Isn’t the average life expectancy caused by infant death? Anyone living through pubity probably had a good chance of living to 70.

geneva_convenience ,

Back then you would die of what are now easily treatable diseases.

el_abuelo ,

Yes. And that’s why life expectancy of a 20yr old was 60yrs not 80+.

Source: ourworldindata.org/its-not-just-about-child-morta…

geneva_convenience ,

The average age going up appears to directly correlate with the heightening of the definition of adulthood.

If humans could live to 1000 we would call a 600 year old dating a 40 year old a pedo

el_abuelo ,

In 1885 the legal age of consent in the UK was raised to 16. The average life expectancy of adults had barely changed.

So while this disproves your correlation theory, it’s also important to remind the reader that correlation is not the same as causation. Society, the role of government, the rule of law and its encroachment on personal choice changed hugely from the 13th Century and 17th Century - I would therefore claim that society would not have been accepting of paedophilia in the 13th Century despite the lack of law.

Sexual desire of prepubescent children has, as far as I know, never been considered the norm.

geneva_convenience , (edited )

According to random internet person you are incorrect. Though I have not fact checked this much your comment sounds extremely improbable.

…stackexchange.com/…/what-is-the-earliest-age-a-b…

'You will find a lot of confusion in the discussion of this legislation on the web. My understanding is that, while they did introduce an element of parental involvement in approving a marriage, the Acts left the accepted minimum ages where they were in traditional canon (that is church) law. So it was possible for a girl to marry at 12 and a boy at 14. Even if the parents disagreed with the decision, there were perfectly legal ways in which the marriage could take place.

And we are still all teaching teenage “kids” about sexuality and “experimenting” is totally fine. Do the sex thing “kids”! As long as they do it with other “kids”…

As for the rest of the Euro moral high grounding I don’t know which history books you have been reading but marrying young and the monarchy was a rather popular combo. Plenty of kings with brides even younger than 9.

Even now our leading Elites enjoy private Epstein island visits filled with girls not considered legal age.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

Okay setting aside the tons of other problems with this statement, "worship" him? Really?

sunzu ,

Not following the point you are trying to make.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

Muslims do not worship Muhammed, at all. Shia do have a weird obsession with his family that can reach worship according to my knowledge as a Sunni Muslim, but no serious sect of Islam worships Muhammed. "We don't worship our prophet, unlike what the Christians did to Jesus" is an important part of Islamic identity.

sunzu ,

I see fair point from religious doctrine perspective.

I don't buy the sky daddy thing so to me its the same all the same thing and acolytes make my argument for me it seems

Kusimulkku ,

To an outsider it does feel a lot like worship. But I guess that’d require him to be viewed as a deity to be correct

geneva_convenience ,

It is forbidden for Muslims to worship any prophet or anything that outside of God. That would be idolatry.

Kusimulkku ,

It is forbidden for Christians to kill. However…

geneva_convenience ,

Is it the fault of Christianity when a Christian does not abide by its rules?

TokenBoomer ,

I don’t know whether to upvote or downvote, good job. 👍

Badeendje ,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

What is a pilgrimage without risk and suffering.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s June in Saudi Arabia. I’m surprised it’s not way higher than that every time.

NosferatuZodd ,

they do a good job cooling the place, the floors are cooled and there’s a lot of water sprayed everywhere and lots of fans and stuff, with the number of people going there there needs to be ample preparation.

PlexSheep ,

Actually it’s June here too, what a coincidence!

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Lies!

BruceTwarzen ,

So what you’re saying is that the earth is flat.

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