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Asafum ,

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/2d860e49-4b63-45e4-ab0e-f944939ef8d9.png

My feed right now lol

chitak166 ,

Why do people think this will have an impact at all?

Republicans vote for and fund these reps specifically to do things like withhold aid to Ukraine.

This is literally just an opportunity for them to appease their base by texting/sleeping while Zelensky is there.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Should bring him for lunch at the Hungarian embassy so they can explain to his face why exactly they’re stabbing him in the back by strategizing with republicans on how to stop the aid.

Cannacheques ,

Yeah I’d be keen to hear why.

fluxion ,

Because they have Putin’s hand up their asses

slaacaa ,

Not sure what happened, but the pro-Russia trolls seem to be out of the woods in the last few days under Ukraine news posts. They must be really desperate to even try their astroturfing on lemmy

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

A lot of them are genuine useful idiots rather than astroturfing, I think. Tankies, Chomskyites, and far-right 'isolationists' who jerk off to Russian propaganda about defending White Christian Civilization™

TheOriginalGregToo ,

Or, you know, it might simply be people with a different opinion from you. That exists too.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Yeah, Tankies, Chomskyites, and far-right 'isolations' are people with different opinions than me. That's the point of me labeling them useful idiots instead of astroturfing.

I believe their views are genuine.

I just also believe that their views are easily manipulated dogshit that serves fascists at home and abroad.

affiliate ,

oh, how i long to live in a better world

dangblingus ,

There was a massive wave of new conservative users/bots sign up for lemmy.

someguy3 ,

Sad that it comes to this.

slaacaa ,

Exactly. How is this even a fucking question?

After all the fucking unjust wars initiated and fought, this one time they would just need to write a fucking check. For a war of self-defense, that is as just as it can reasonably be.

chitak166 ,

How is this even a fucking question?

Have you ever considered Ukraine could lose?

TransplantedSconie ,

Russian is fucked. 350k dead or wounded, another million plus able-bodied men fled, the best military shit destroyed, and the oil spigot shut off to Europe.

Only thing holding that country together is the lies.

And those are starting to unravel.

chitak166 , (edited )

Have you ever considered Ukraine could lose?

It’s a yes or no question.

Edit: Since he just downvoted without answering, we can safely assume his answer is ‘no.’

He has never considered Ukraine could lose.

MediciPrime ,

Silly chitak166, don’t you realize anyone who disagrees is a Russian bot.

galloog1 ,

Trick question. Ukraine has already lost the second Russia invaded. They’ve lost an entire generation. They could still lose territory but I don’t see them ever compromising at this point and Russia would have generations of insurgencies to deal with. Ukraine will eventually gain back their territory, if not within the current conflict.

That’s not why the West is supporting them though. They are supporting them because Russia is fighting an aggressive land grab not seen since WWII (or arguably Kuwait but not by a nuclear power) and using the exact same tactics. Every major world institution set up since WWII was to prevent exactly this type of aggression.

So, to answer your leading question, yes Ukraine could still lose the current conflict. They already have and that’s why they need the aid so that Russia can be as punished as possible to maintain the current deterrence for any other states that would seek to do the same thing.

chitak166 , (edited )

It’s not a trick question at all.

Ukraine is still defending its territory. Ukraine thought, at one time, that it could even take back Crimea. I’m sure many of you thought it could as well. At what point do you admit when you were wrong and acknowledge you could be wrong in the future?

Now it’s clear they can’t take back Crimea, regardless of how many people believed otherwise. I’m trying to suggest to those same people that maybe, just maybe, it’s possible Ukraine is unable to defend its remaining territory as well.

The propaganda machine is in full-swing. Don’t fall victim to it, on either sides.

galloog1 ,

700 Russian casualties yesterday and the kids in the Black Sea naval war says this situation is still significantly dynamic. Failure to advance does not mean Ukraine has lost the way anymore than it means Russia has lost the war in their failure to take Avdivka. People matter. Attrition matters.

War is politics by other means. Germany lost WWI due to a political failure, not anything on the frontlines. French Soldiers were mutinying up to the day of the armistice. There is a lot of political will in Ukraine and Russia didn’t seem to get the memo that this has turned into an attritional fight. You interpret that as stalemate. They have interpreted it as needing to kill as many Russians as possible. With an average of 800 Russian casualties a day for the last two months, I’d say they are absolutely not losing this war but showing they can consistently be trusted to take the actions that are most sounds towards winning the war.

Don’t think I don’t understand propaganda and that both sides do it. You do match the Russian narratives perfectly though. Suspiciously so, actually.

chitak166 ,

You do match the Russian narratives perfectly though. Suspiciously so, actually.

Yeah, I just skipped to the end cause I knew you were going to do this.

Anyone who is not unwavering in their support of Ukraine is a Russian troll in your mind.

Forget all the comments I make about diverting resources from Israel to Ukraine, lol. The fact I suggested Ukraine might lose is enough for me to “match the Russian narratives perfectly.” Suspiciously so, actually.

Nice tribalism. I don’t expect you to rise above it or acknowledge it.

Don’t think I don’t understand propaganda and that both sides do it.

You’re doing it right now.

galloog1 ,

You skipped all the parts where I provided supporting evidence. You make yourself look ignorant. Sorry, I didn’t read anything after the first sentence. (Actually I did read it but it doesn’t actually expand on anything)

Yes, Ukraine is losing because they have not made it as far as they hoped is exactly the Russian narrative. It’s not unwavering support but you completely ignore the rest of my comment so I don’t know what to tell you. You look like an idiot because you are not addressing my points and just continuing the exact Russian narratives. I’m not entirely certain that you aren’t a bugging bot that couldn’t deal with an actual military political assessment.

Maalus ,

Have you considered “who gives a shit” as a response to that question? Each tank destroyed in Ukraine is a tank that won’t need to be destroyed in the Baltics, in Poland or Finland.

chitak166 ,

Got another one who hasn’t considered Ukraine could lose.

Why are you people so afraid to answer this simple yes or no question?

Maalus ,

You do realize that simplifying an issue to a “yes or no” is bad debating? Life isn’t black and white. Yes, Ukraine might lose in the end. They also might win. As I said - I don’t give a shit send them all that is possible so they can win.

chitak166 ,

No actually, it’s not ‘bad debating’ when the point is that people are succumbing to propaganda.

Maalus ,

You try to make it about “people succumbing to propaganda” when most people don’t give a shit. They want old weapons to be sent to a country that is currently defending itself from Russia. That’s the point of this entite thread, post, whatever.

chitak166 ,

They want those weapons to be sent because they believe(d) it would enable Ukraine to do things like take back Crimea. Which it hasn’t been able to do.

Now we pivot to them needing more to do what? Slow their loss?

I don’t think Ukraine can prevent a Russian victory without foreign troops. Not just volunteers; coordinated, foreign, military aid.

Russia has too many men. Their propaganda machine is too strong. Even if Ukrainians can kill more Russians per Ukrainians lost, the numbers simply cannot be ignored unless you are succumbing to propaganda.

mrnotoriousman ,

You seem to thinking asking that is some gotcha but it's not lmao. Yes, pretty much everyone has considered the possibility. What is the exact point you are trying to make here? Stop obfuscating and just say it.

chitak166 ,

Yes, pretty much everyone has considered the possibility.

It doesn’t seem that way. Look at how mad people get at the mere suggestion of it.

mrnotoriousman ,

People are mad because you're acting like a troll and not engaging just repeating a dumb question that doesn't even make sense in context of anything anyone is talking about

chitak166 ,

Okay.

TransplantedSconie ,

Man, what the hell happened?

I take a break from work and I see some bitch complaining about downvotes like they matter here.

Look, homey, you obviously have a hard-on for oppression and hate freedom. It might be from your shitty life choices you’ve made or where the GFSM decided to plant you. Honestly, I don’t care.

Let me give you a piece of advice: no one wins in war except the grim reaper. This mad quest for power that Putin is rushing to complete will only end in misery for the common people of Russia. Ukrainians will never give up, nor should they.

fosforus ,

Edit: Since he just downvoted without answering, we can safely assume his answer is ‘no.’

Lemmy works in such a way that anyone can downvote comments, not just the one you’re answering to.

Zpiritual ,

Yes. And the ramifications of that eventuallity is why it can’t happen.

SCB ,

Yes.

And this is why I support sending them money. No investment is certain, but “the concept of democracy” is a pretty good one

chitak166 ,

I’m all for giving them support. Heck, give them all the support Israel is getting and has been getting for years!

Just, I’m not in favor of a blank check. There are stipulations to that. One of which is “Ukraine might lose.”

SCB ,

In what way have we given Ukraine a blank check?

chitak166 ,

We haven’t. I don’t think we should.

SCB ,

I don’t believe that’s ever been proposed.

FontMasterFlex ,

if that’s all it was then why do we need to keep sending millions upon millions of dollars to Ukraine?

TransplantedSconie ,

We are not sending millions and millions to Ukraine.

In fact that money doesn’t leave the country.

FontMasterFlex ,

riiiiight. ok dude.

TransplantedSconie , (edited )

Here you go. A map of all the production facilities in the US manufacturing weapon systems for Ukraine with the money congress appropriated. A good chunk are high paying union jobs as well.

One has to ask, why do the Republicans want an end to all this when it’s literally a massive money earner?

Because they need it to fail to make the economy take a nosedive to get people to vote republican. It’s another “break everything to prove government doesn’t work.”

I’m willing to bet even if Joe Biden were to agree to their demands on the southern border, they would simply pick up and move the goal posts again because they want the economy to fail.

FontMasterFlex ,

make the economy take a nosedive to get people to vote republican. It’s another “break everything to prove government doesn’t work.”

Is this some kind of joke? The economy is in the tank already. IDGAF what they say on the news. the stock market =/= the economy. just walk outside. look around. ask your neighbors if they think the economy is better or “good”. if you’re really open minded (which i doubt, given your posts) think back 4 years and ask yourself how much further your dollar when then, compared to today. The GOP doesn’t need to do ANYTHING to prove that government doesnt work. our entire system is broken and has been for decades.

FontMasterFlex ,

i mean, when it’s all 1’s and 0’s…

Daxtron2 ,

It’s either they will lose without support or they may not lose with it. Only one option results in a chance of Ukraine existing.

TransplantedSconie ,

It’s not even a check, lol. We are giving Ukraine our outdated and obsolete weapons! Shit is gonna rot in a wearhouse anyway and in turn the weapons are being replenished with new stuff BUILT RIGHT IN AMERICA! It’s a win win except the Republicans are horrible assholes who are in the pocket of Putin.

Remember, both the DNC and RNC got hacked back in 2016. The Russians have the locations and names of the RNC pedophile rings in DC.

fpslem ,

Even where US military aid is brand-new material, the American military contractors are the ones profiting from it, spurring the American economy. It’s almost more an economic shot in the arm than it is international aid.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Stop sending our money to other countries’ wars.

MrFappy ,

If our money doesn’t go there now, our troops’ lives will continue the fight in the future.

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

Not to mention many European countries and countless civilian lives. Russia doesn’t give a shit about even the thin veneer of conventions.

0110010001100010 ,
@0110010001100010@lemmy.world avatar

So you want Russia to become more powerful by conquering Ukraine?

This is a US wet dream, we shut down Putin without a single US causality. Not to mention we get field-testing of weapons that have never been deployed on a battlefield.

This is a win, win, win for the US to keep funding Ukraine even outside the fact that we are helping a country fight-back against a maniac dictator.

xkforce ,

All they do is make worthless comments like this about Ukraine. I wouldnt bother trying to reason with them.

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

Shut down…any day now, for going on 3 years.

HerrBeter ,

Ukraine had the lesser army from the start. Only Russian incompetence, and their own good minds, kept them from losing. Investing in the defense of Ukraine is vital for a free Europe. It is a marathon, not a sprint

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

The world’s largest, most well funded military in the world can’t take down a military more than half its size? The US goal isn’t to win, it’s to extend it to make as much money as possible for the MIC

HerrBeter ,

Three days to Kyiv. Book a room!

The military industrial complex does not need a reason to get more money. The politicians could simply say that they want to sell old stuff and get new stuff. The most cost effective is to send all old stuff and replace it

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

If I wanted to go to an authoritarian country run by Nazis I would go to Tel Aviv

HerrBeter ,

You have three options: China, North Korea, or Russia. I like that you imply that the elected government of Ukraine are nazis, whilst Russia attempts a genocide lmayo

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

The democratic government of Ukraine that’s suspended elections, has outlawed all but the government sanctioned political party, and state run media? Sounds a lot like the US

HerrBeter ,

This is a healthy thing to do when the nation is under a genocidal war. Done to have the government running.

It is also healthy to kick out the literal shills from the invading country from the room of politics.

This sounds like China, North Korea, and Russia to me though.

I don’t see how the US has suspended elections or any of the other accusations?

wandermind ,

I can imagine back in 1942 you’d been like “Shut down Hitler…any day now, for going on 3 years”

chitak166 ,

Is that really a 1:1 analogy?

wandermind ,

No analogy is 1:1.

chitak166 ,

Amen to that.

evatronic ,

They’re a troll. The answer to your question is yes.

SeducingCamel ,

No US casualties just the poor saps on the front lines of the meat grinder

SpaceNoodle ,

Well, it’s not going to fucking healthcare

Hyperreality , (edited )

Not questioning your intentions, but that's a false dilemna. Common logical fallacy, often used rhetorical device.

Reality: the US doesn't have to choose between healthcare and military spending. The US spends more on healthcare per capita than any other high income country.

That means the US could spend less on healthcare, spend significantly more on defense, still have better healthcare than you do now AND save money doing so.

It's a bit like brexit. UK politicians found it useful to blame foreign governments and the EU, as it helped distract from domestic corruption and profiteering.

In fact Boris Johnson promised the UK £350 million a week for the healthcare system in the run-up to the brexit referendum, pushing a similar false dilemna. UK voters were told that they had to choose between EU membership or funding their healthcare system. Of couse, after brexit voters ended up with neither. It was a lie.

Surprisingly common rhetoric device. Eg. quite common when discussing the green transition and the economy/jobs. People are told by fossil fuel interest groups that they have to choose between saving the environment or saving the economy/jobs. In reality, the World Economic Forum suggest that the green transition would create millions of jobs, not cost jobs.

SpaceNoodle ,

I was mocking them but OK

Silverseren ,

Any war with Russia is our war, as they've been actively trying to harm democracy across the world, including buying off our major politicians in this country.

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

So you fell for the "US saves democracy’ bullshit too?

Silverseren ,

What? No, that's literally the opposite of what I said. Our democracy is fundamentally compromised and Russia has played a major role in that.

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, Russia with their 1000 facebook posts killed US democracy. Voters did that by allowing capital to take over government.

Silverseren ,

I'm less worried about their social media activities and more with their active working with and paying off of Republicans to side with them over the past decade. And their working together to push all of the human rights rollbacks that conservatives have been rolling out on the state level in the past few years.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Don't bother, tankie cretins don't argue in good faith. They're like Republicans.

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

Translated to ‘they dont contribute to our echo chambers’

wandermind ,

Our pro-democracy, pro-peace “echo chamber” > Your pro-genocide, pro-war, pro-dictator echo chamber

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

Democrats are not pro democracy, pro peace, except in the land of doublespeak.

wandermind ,

They might not be but our echo chamber is.

Also I don’t see you denying being pro-genocide, pro-war, and pro-dictator.

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

Your echo chamber is nothing but war, poverty, genocide, and authoritarian. But they are waving pride flags so you overlook it

Argonne ,

Funny that’s exactly how I would describe Russia 🪆

K1nsey6 ,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

Thats the US

PRUSSIA_x86 ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3ef1666a-f76f-4d34-8f7d-db92ccead340.png

Burn_The_Right , (edited )

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    K1nsey6 ,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    zenitsu ,

    Nobody’s a bigger loser than the hammer and sickle simps

    ArtVandelay ,
    @ArtVandelay@lemmy.world avatar

    Found Neville Chamberlain’s account

    PugJesus ,
    @PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

    Hey, just thought you should know there's a pic of you and your friends floating around the internet

    remotelove ,

    You really don’t know how our military industrial complex works, do you?

    We are sending very little cash to Ukraine. Most of the money goes to our workers, in our country, to replenish our stockpiles. It would cost magnitudes more to refurbish our own rapidly aging stockpiles, if that can even be done at all. Explosive compounds degrade, and our missiles are even only rated for a certain number of flight hours before they have to be replaced.

    Our stockpiles across Europe are a prime example of this. We have warehouses filled with different vehicles that are just sitting around collecting dust. Rubber seals and hoses are degrading and metal is rusting. It needs to get used for what it was built and stored for in the first place: A war with Russia.

    Ukraine has a vast supply of resources. Not only do they supply a huge portion of the world with grain, they are sitting on massive natural gas reserves. If you think for a second that we won’t benefit from that after this conflict is over, you are very much mistaken. Did you notice how simple instant ramen prices have been increasing lately? That is one tiny window into some of the much more major implications of letting Russia have their way.

    Stop screaming that ignorant rhetoric. It’s not a good look. It’s almost like you were told to parrot that line from a politician or something.

    While I am 100% behind US support for Ukraine, I have mixed feelings about Israel. The only thing that country is good for is a strategic position for us in the event of another war in the middle east, which seems to always boil down to oil anyway. I don’t want to get into the political bullshit about that conflict, but I am just pointing out it’s strategic benefit here.

    HerrBeter ,

    It would be as easy to support Israel too if they didn’t do the indiscriminate bombings and the like

    Wahots ,
    @Wahots@pawb.social avatar

    Israel has a number of high-tech products, cyberweapons, some cutting edge stuff such as anti-missile DE (Direct Energy/laser weapons). Cyber security firms, too, some of the best outside of the new axis countries. Those also protect businesses worldwide. They also have nukes, which we (the world) really really don’t want hamas or Islamic jihad getting their hands on for obvious reasons.

    If you want anti-nuke missile shields, outside of the US, Israel is probably the best candidate. Since their neighbors are always shooting rockets and artillery at their cities, they have a near perfect success rate. Iron Eye is their latest DE project, which was rushed out after hamas attacked. Although I hesitate to call new weapons “good”, DE is great because it only uses electricity and doesn’t leave unexploded AA/anti-munition warheads lying around if one fails to detonate. It also doesn’t mean we are wasting $20k+ per AA missile.

    We have DE ship guns in testing, as well as a DE Stryker, but either we are pretty quiet on the details, or we just don’t have general missile shield tech yet. Definitely want them as allies as climate change and stupid decisions like the one child policy will further destabilize authoritarian countries. China is below replacement rate for population, severely skewed towards young men with few young women, and anti-immigrant with an aging population. People are going get desperate as droughts make more areas unlivable or not farmable. And as we saw with Russia, war distracts the population when your country is going to shit and the dictator wants to keep power. I hope that people follow logic and prioritize science, but so far, common sense seems scarce.

    K1nsey6 ,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    If this war started under a GOP President, shitlibs would oppose it as much as non shitlibs do

    uberkalden ,

    What’s your proposition? Let Russia take Ukraine?

    zenitsu ,

    They never have any propositions, all they can do is spam “america bad” while masturbating to Stalin or something

    HerrBeter ,

    No, since they don’t act as kids as often as republicans.

    K1nsey6 ,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    BlueMAGA is as deranged as MAGA.

    uberkalden ,

    Haha wtf is blue maga

    K1nsey6 ,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    Indeed

    dangblingus ,

    The tankie shit doesn’t accomplish anything and in fact only muddies the leftist waters. Some of us here are trying to have a functioning society, while yall jerk each other off over Stalin and Mao.

    K1nsey6 ,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    Sounds like you’re talking about Democrats. Leftists, actual leftists would not be supporting duopoly, trying to justify it by saying functioning society. There is no functioning society if your society is run by capital and their minions

    JeffKerman1999 ,

    I’m still having a laugh about how there still is a republican party after a republican president allowed the worst terrorist attack on American soil.

    someguy3 ,

    But please continue buying our weapons since we are the biggest weapons exporter on the planet.

    dangblingus ,

    That’s literally how Ukraine becomes part of Russia and then Russia decides where to invade next.

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    US President Joe Biden has invited his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelenskiy to the White House, days after his administration warned it would run out of money for Ukraine aid in weeks unless feuding US lawmakers act.

    The meeting on Tuesday is intended “to underscore the United States’ unshakeable commitment to supporting the people of Ukraine as they defend themselves against Russia’s brutal invasion,” the White House said in a statement Sunday.

    Republican senators last week blocked $106bn in emergency aid primarily for Ukraine and Israel after conservatives balked at the exclusion of immigration reforms they had demanded as part of the package.

    The stakes are especially high for Ukraine, secretary of state Antony Blinken said during two television interviews Sunday, given that “we are running out of funding” for the Ukrainians.

    Republican senator Mitt Romney said there was bipartisan agreement that something has to be done to address record numbers of migrants crossing into the US from Mexico.

    Republican senator JD Vance said the administration had yet to justify additional aid to Ukraine.

    The original article contains 606 words, the summary contains 173 words. Saved 71%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

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