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amanda ,
@amanda@aggregatet.org avatar

I think this part:

Our volunteer ambassadors will [list of tasks performed]

And

Ambassadors need to [list of properties]

Along with

Bonus points if [list of properties]

Are what makes this read like a job ad for a job they’re not paying for. If they’d have posted a much shorter version with less demands, selection criteria, etc, not worded as a job ad, I’d have been a lot more charitable in my interpretation. In this case, I find it difficult to read it as anything else than “work for us, a profit-driven company, for free”.

I don’t think it’s a massive problem, but it for sure is bad communication. Ironically.

I generally don’t like this. Company fandom is bad, companies encouraging fandom is worse. Someone mentioned “but OnePlus does this!” as a counter argument and I think that’s telling something because I think they’re slimy as hell. And I had a OnePlus One and liked it.

sbv ,

Our volunteer ambassadors will attend local Linux and open-source events, meet with other Framework laptop users and potential community members, answer questions, gather feedback, and showcase Framework laptops and parts to those interested. Ambassadors will be in close touch to Framework employees and they will represent the Linux community, feedback and requests directly to our engineers and to our internal Linux team.

That sounds way too close to unpaid labour. I’m all for recognizing community members with perks, merch, and other freebies; but this looks more like soliciting volunteers for unpaid PR.

rottingleaf ,

Everybody was doing this in 2007 for Google, Facebook, Apple. They seem to think times haven’t changed.

I don’t like something about Framework. I’m not sure what.

TheDarksteel94 ,

So they’re just trying to form an official connection with the people that are already passionate about Framework. Nothing wrong with that.

witx ,

I’m a big fan of what they are achieving, but if they want free labour they can just eat shit

invisiblegorilla ,

Could at least give them a framework laptop.

BetaDoggo_ ,

I feel like they should at least provide them with a laptop If they’re going to do unpaid promotion.

Hule ,

showcase Framework laptops and parts

I’m pretty sure they don’t expect you to bring your own…

Aatube ,

OP, just call them "unpaid volunteers", jeez.

lnxtx ,
@lnxtx@feddit.nl avatar

“Volunteers” are unpaid by the definition.

Aatube ,

It seems like OP wants to stress this.

Ilovethebomb ,

Not always, in military contexts it’s used to differentiate between conscripted and those who voluntarily applied.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

OP, just call them “unpaid volunteers”, jeez.

If that was for a non-profit community-driven organization, what would be the correct term. Framework, however, is a regular for-profit company that is looking for people to promote their commercial products.

Aatube ,

I just really hate clickbait titles when you could easily put your clickbait in the description.

This isn’t a program to get people to go to conferences and rep Framework, it’s a program to give people who are already going to conferences and showing off their Framework some swag and opportunities to talk with the team. It’s not assigning work, it’s just saying thank you to people who are excited about Framework and active in the Linux community.

They already have volunteers for this cause of repairable products they believe in, hence looking for volunteers.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Exactly. If I was in that situation and Framework tried to pay me, I’d be offended. If they instead gave me an inside track on what’s going on, I’d be stoked. The difference between an employee and a volunteer is the obligations attached.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Those “ambassadors” are expected to take appointments via social media to show off the hardware and answer questions. That’s a job.

Aatube ,

No? The only thing ambassadors will be required to do on social media is to list the events they'll be attending.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Fist: Yes. “Where do I find the ambassadors in an event? Please reach out to the ambassadors on their social media if you have trouble locating them at events.

As an event attendee, what can I get from meeting an ambassador? You can get your questions answered, share your feedback, and get Framework stickers and other goodies. In case you haven’t before, you will also get to see a Framework Laptop in person.”

It’s written down black on white: ambassadors need to be available on social media to schedule a meeting, reply to questions, and hand out “stickers and other goodies” (=those aren’t even for the ambassadors to keep).

Second: so there are, by your own admission, requirements tied to getting some stickers.

That’s a job. It’s not a full time job but it most certainly is a job.

Pika ,
@Pika@sh.itjust.works avatar

please reach out to your ambassadors on social media

That != “ambassadors are required to reply”

I expect it’s layout is much like twitchcon, where you could reach out to your content creators for questions and meetups, but there is no obligation to respond.

In the case of this, these people already were attending regardless, so it’s not like they wouldn’t want to mix and mingle via social media as is.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

So they have to make their social media profiles public, open up their DMs but replying to those DMs is supposedly optional? Where does it say that in the FAQ?

Pika , (edited )
@Pika@sh.itjust.works avatar

where does it say it’s mandatory? It’s only stating things that they would have done regardless, I see nowhere where it says ambassadors are required to. The only requirement I saw was that they need to state what events they will be present at, and that’s only so they can distribute the items(primarily stickers) that they supplied the ambassadors and to actually use the program.

It seems like your typical enthusiast volunteer program if you ask me.

edit: rereading it they also reiterate that fact

Thanks for sharing your concern. We definitely don’t want anyone to go out of their way to represent us. There are individuals who are already chatting with other event attendees, sharing their own experience with Framework Laptops and answering questions at various events without any affiliation to us, and we just want to get in touch with them. I guess “showcase” was the wrong word here. We are looking for ambassadors who would show what a Framework Laptop looks like to others who are interested. We are definitely not looking for a laptop salesperson. Hope this makes sense.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

where does it say it’s mandatory?

Read the FAQ. “Where do I find the ambassadors in an event? Please reach out to the ambassadors on their social media” <-- That’s impossible if disclosing social media profile wasn’t mandatory, duh.

We are looking for ambassadors who would show what a Framework Laptop looks like to others who are interested. We are definitely not looking for a laptop salesperson.

A sales person makes sales, ie. signed contracts. What they are looking for is a PR person. Chatting about the product and showing it off is PR.

Aatube ,

I'm assuming that we agree that ambassadors are not required to answer questions other than location on social media nor schedule appointments now.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

I’m assuming that we agree that ambassadors are not required to answer questions other than location on social media nor schedule appointments now.

No. “Our volunteer ambassadors will attend local Linux and open-source events, meet with other Framework laptop users and potential community members, answer questions, gather feedback, and showcase Framework laptops and parts to those interested.” <-- Right there in the second paragraph. It’s an unpaid PR job.

Aatube ,

Where in that paragraph does it say they have to do that and take appointments online?

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Where in that paragraph does it say they have to do that and take appointments online?

You guys are really grasping at straws when you have to resort to the social media appointments not being in that specific paragraph. For the 10 time: “We will be announcing the events on our community platforms, also the ambassadors will share them on social media.[…] Please reach out to the ambassadors on their social media”

THIS IS A PR JOB. NO AMOUNT OF DERAILING BY SPLITTING HAIRS REGARDING VERY SPECIFIC SUBSECTIONS OF PARAGRAPHS CHANGES THAT. The part I quoted in the last comment was about the claim that ambassadors would have no obligation to answer questions when the “answer questions” bit is very early in the job description. It’s really not so hard to understand.

Aatube ,

Picking at my words, fine. Your point is that this is enough responsibilities for a job because the ambassadors will have to be terminally online to answer every single question (and somehow make appointments, which isn't mentioned at all. The locations are predetermined.). My point is that the only questions they'll have to answer is about what locations they'll show up to: that's the context that precedes the "reach out on social media" part; questions are only answered at physical locations while attending conventions. I think that's a pretty big reduction in responsibilities.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

My point is that the only questions they’ll have to answer is about what locations they’ll show up to

… to then promote a commercial product in person by show hardware, answer questions, and hand out stickers. In the end nothing what you guys said negates this being an unpaid PR job for a commercial company.

Aatube ,

Because it's not a paid job and you're not the social media manager, you're not representing the entire company with your PR.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Because it’s not a paid job

I’ve said all the time that it’s an unpaid job, duh.

and you’re not the social media manager

Never claimed that. It’s an unpaid job to promote the product.

you’re not representing the entire company with your PR.

Entire company? No. Promote the hardware, a commercial product: Yes, very much yes.

Aatube ,

My point is that you don't have as much responsibility to take on. If it was a paid job and a position, then it could arguably stir up controversy and give a lot of burden to the potential employee to not freak up their mouth and have people believe they said what the company believes. They also wouldn't have to purge their social media account for iffy views.

Pika , (edited )
@Pika@sh.itjust.works avatar

I’ve read the FAQ, it fails to disclose it as a requirement anywhere, actually it says opposite on the application itself, it allows for marking social media platforms as NA, if it was a hard requirement they wouldn’t allow you to do so. Screenshot_20240805_115254_Firefox Nightly

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

actually it says opposite on the application itself, it allows for marking social media platforms as NA

OK, so I was wrong about this specific bit. I accept that and will no longer say otherwise. Does it make the entire point untrue that Framwork is looking for unpaid PR people? No. It still is very much about “show what a Framework Laptop looks like” and “answer questions”.

Armok_the_bunny ,

That’s a bit of a disingenuous way to put it, it’s reads to me more that they want to reach out/make official what some people were already doing.

conciselyverbose ,

Yeah, allowing enthusiasts to represent the community and get perks isn’t crazy.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, allowing enthusiasts to represent the community and get perks isn’t crazy.

It’s not a community (like Debian), it’s a for-profit company.

conciselyverbose ,

It the community of their customers. That’s who these people are representing, to the company. If this was a paid position, they would no longer represent the community.

It’s the same premise as interacting with a subreddit (before Reddit went insane) and recognizing the mods there rather than trying to force the community to one controlled by employees.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

It the community of their customers. That’s who these people are representing, to the company. If this was a paid position, they would no longer represent the community.

It’s PR work for the company. Nothing else and no amount of downvoting changes that simple fact.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

it’s reads to me more that they want to reach out/make official what some people were already doing.

So pay them?

Rayspekt ,

Well not “that” official.

conciselyverbose ,

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if paying them meaningfully lowered their pool of applicants. I would be very surprised if it didn’t lower the quality of the feedback.

Being an “employee”, regardless of amount paid or frequency of interaction, is something that would cause issues with some people’s real jobs, especially in tech fields, and especially if they’re people who want to encourage their employers to buy Framework in the future.

It also changes the nature of the relationship with Framework, how they interact with the community, and the feedback they’re willing to pass on.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Being an “employee”, regardless of amount paid or frequency of interaction, is something that would cause issues with some people’s real jobs

So does going on business trips for other companies, paid or unpaid.

conciselyverbose ,

Going to an event is a business trip if and only if you get paid for it. People go to conventions all the time.

The people I’m talking about would absolutely be disqualified from a paid position and have absolutely no issue with an unpaid role.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

have absolutely no issue with an unpaid role.

Then clean my house in an unpaid role. Brainwashing people to accept unpaid jobs for for-profit companies are unpaid workers, no matter if you make up excuses for that or not.

conciselyverbose ,

It’s not a fucking job, doesn’t resemble a fucking job, and if it was a job, most people couldn’t do it.

It’s an acknowledgment of members of the community to open a line of communication.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not a fucking job, doesn’t resemble a fucking job

Oh jeez, I hit a nerve.

conciselyverbose ,

I just don’t like morons spreading world class stupidity.

Your position isn’t just wrong. It’s completely deranged.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I clean up local parks for free, but if the city tried to pay me for it, I’d probably stop doing it. I don’t want to do it as a job, but I sometimes get in the mood to do it for free.

If I’m in the mood to clean up your house, I might just do it. But there can be no expectations on how or when I do it, and if I throw out that thing you really like, well maybe you shouldn’t have given me the keys.

The important thing is that there are no expectations. As soon as there are expectations, it becomes a job and I should be compensated for it. But if I can come and go as I please, say and do what I please, and there are no expectations on either end, I shouldn’t be paid.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Cool, did the city put up an ad asking people to apply for that unpaid job? If not, it’s not the same.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Sort of? There’s signage asking people to clean up the parks, and there are official volunteer projects (unpaid) to do park cleanups. I’m acting on my own on my own time.

For something more directly relevant, my city has an official “fiber ambassador” program for the upcoming muni fiber rollout, and they are actively seeking unpaid “fiber champions” to post signs and tell friends about it. I didn’t do that (don’t want an obligation), but I do hype it up with neighbors and whatnot because I’m excited about it. The fiber program won’t be free, but it should be very competitive with existing infra (we have a local fiber-backed ethernet ISP, cable, dsl, and fixed wireless). If the city approached me and tried to pay me for that, I’d turn them down and probably champion it less because I don’t want the city to bother me.

And the situation in the article isn’t even like that “fiber champion” program, it’s just an invitation to meet the team. There’s no on-going obligation, just an invitation for a special event for people with an outsized influence on the community. It’s more of a “thank you” than an agreement to keep doing it.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Cool, where can I put up a sign so you come clean my home for free? How about some renovations where you even buy the utilities yourself?

What you’re describing is unpaid labor.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

What I’m describing is volunteer labor. As long as there’s no obligations, I’m free to do it or not, at my leisure.

If you want to put up a sign, go for it. Maybe I live near you (doubt it), or maybe there’s another busybody that likes to organize stuff. You might get robbed, or you might get some free labor, you never know! But an invitation is a prerequisite. I have helped people clean up stuff because they asked nicely, and I would do so again if more people asked. It turns out, I like helping people, and I don’t really care if they’re making a profit or not (I’ve cleaned up for-profit businesses as well, because I like the service they offer).

It’s the same general idea as those “free small libraries” people put out. They put in some amount of effort to keep it orderly, and invite community members to do the same. Sometimes it works out and people exchange books and keep the “library” orderly, and other times people take advantage and steal the books to resell online or something. Which one happens depends on your local community.

If you pay someone, you’ll probably get the results you want. If you don’t, well, it depends on who chooses to do the work, if any.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

The Framework job definitely has obligations attached. If you think your city cleaning is somehow the same, yet totally different, it’s up to you but again: there are obligations to become a Framework ambassador.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Exactly. If I really liked Framework laptops and Framework was forced to pay me, I’d refuse and probably stop posting about them. Getting paid for something makes it a job, and a job has expectations. I do hobbies because there’s no expectations, so I can be as consistent or as inconsistent as I want.

For example, I absolutely love Pine64 products, but I would hate Lukasz Erecinski’s job (their official “community manager”) because it takes the fun thing and makes it work, complete with expectations and whatnot. I think someone should get paid for that job, but it shouldn’t be an expectation for prominent members of the community to transition to paid positions.

That said, I wouldn’t say no to some merch as a “thank you,” but I’m not interested in merch as an expectation of future work. Maybe give me new products early to test, but not with the expectation that I’ll post a review or something (I probably will, but again, I don’t want it to be a job).

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