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skymtf ,

In general for me, I think mission critical systems breaks, engine etc should be physically isolated from the infotainment system. Infotainment systems should also prioritize using off the shelf hardware and running stuff like android, also prioritize android auto and apple car play, since these can be updated without automaker input for the most part.

skulblaka ,
@skulblaka@sh.itjust.works avatar

I dream of an open source car. Something simple but reliable, say a legally-distinct 2004 Honda Accord, bog standard, no frills, no detail package options, just A Cheap Car with standardized parts and open source software. It’s the only car the company makes, you can buy one for 10k or build your own for 6k out of parts and a couple months worth of weekends, car nerds will fork the software for infinite tuning customization, and it doesn’t report your location back to headquarters. Parts are standardized across every car we’ve ever made so your local parts store will have them in stock. The new model year is the same car as last year, we just built some fresh ones for people to buy new.

I have no way of making this dream a reality. But I dream of it nonetheless. American car culture has gone off the rails, and the number of people I see already driving around old 5-owner Hondas and Toyotas and Buicks tells me that there is definitely a market for a cheap basic car that runs.

technocrit ,

Car dependency is a dead end. It’s inherently wasteful, privileged, inefficient, unsustainable, unhealthy, etc. I would much rather have free, extensive, public transit and safe infrastructure for pedestrians, bikes, and light EVs.

nyan ,

Building out transit and infrastructure takes time. In the meanwhile, people still have to get places.

laurelraven ,

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but continuing to say that as a reason not to work towards that goal makes no sense

BearOfaTime ,

And isn’t necessarily the best approach

firadin ,

Great, lmk when there’s a regular train from Boston to my office in Boxborough, which currently requires it’s residents to drop off their own trash at the facility. I’m sure that’ll be frequent and efficient right?

InternetUser2012 ,

Tell us you don’t live in the US without telling us you don 't live in the US.

Eccitaze ,
@Eccitaze@yiffit.net avatar

Or anywhere relatively rural. I just got home from a long weekend in rural Minnesota/Wisconsin, and there’s literally no viable way to run public transit out there in a manner that wouldn’t either be so restrictive as to be useless, or would lose so much money it would be first on the block for service cuts (and therefore become useless). I’m talking “town of 600 residents, most people live on unincorporated county land on a farmstead, and the only grocery store in a 50 mile radius is a Dollar General” rural. Asking these folks to give up cars is an insane prospect.

SwingingTheLamp ,

Paved roads don’t just naturally occur, though. That lifestyle is already an insane prospect, unsustainabke but for the large tax subsidy required to enable it.

SwingingTheLamp ,

I live in the U.S. That comment is 100% true, no matter where one lives.

frezik ,

Creating a FOSS EV is all do-able right now with off the shelf motors and batteries. Welding a frame would take some skill. How to title it would depend on the local government rules; many states in the US have a kit car designation for this sort of thing, but not all do.

If it’s built rigid like a race car with a roll cage, four-point harness, and at least a DOT rated helmet for everyone inside (if not Snell), it could be safer then most cars on the road. If it’s not very large, then it’s probably safer for pedestrians and bicycles, too.

I don’t expect air bags to be viable. It takes a lot of tuning to get them right, and they can be worse than nothing if not done right (they’re basically a controlled explosion). However, the race car-like design above, plus helmets, would keep you safer than any air bag. Road cars converted to track cars often disable or remove the air bags. The rules of the event may even require it. They’re counterproductive dead weight when you’re packed in this way.

Other creature comforts are going to be what you put into it, but keep in mind that many of the things we take for granted in modern cars–A/C, stereos, padded seats, etc.–add a whole lot of weight.

What also adds weight is how many passengers you want to carry at once. Two passengers won’t add much weight, but four or more would. All that extra frame material adds up.

Building a traditional frame would take some welding skills. I have just enough welding skills to make some shelves, but anything structural (which my tutor defined as “anything where somebody’s life depends on the weld holding”) is not something I’m comfortable doing. That is to say, it’ll take more than a quick tutorial and a little practice.

However, one interesting possibility is epoxy. Lotus did this for the Elise, and I once tracked down the epoxy manufacturer they use (I’d have to search around to find it again, though). The instructions for it didn’t seem to need anything particularly out of reach for a hobbyist (doesn’t need a big autoclave or anything like that). Lotus did reinforce certain sections with bolts/rivets. It will take some knowledge to design a frame around this, but it’s one time design work by an engineer and then everyone can copy it.

One advantage Lotus had over a welded frame was thinner material. A weld itself is very strong, but it weakens the metal around it (meaning you usually get breaks around the weld, not on it). You have to use thicker metal to compensate for that. Since Lotus was using an epoxy, they could use thinner material for less weight, and it was stronger in the end.

Since it’s also getting rid of a whole lot of weight around the frame, the range you get out of those batteries could be extreme. It could also be extremely quick with a modest motor.

This is basically all to say that you can have any three: safe, creature comforts, enough space for passengers, range.

HelloHotel ,
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

I want that so badly.

boonhet ,

For legal reasons it might be easier to take an existing car, throw out all the tech, and add your own. You won’t own the chassis design, but you can at least use open source software everywhere.

Difference between getting a modification certified, vs a self build.

ApollosArrow ,

I assume car manufacturers would try to stop this by saying people would just load up video games or netflix on their dashboards while they drive. Even though you could probably do that now already, if you really wanted to.

laurelraven ,

Hell, I could just bolt a laptop to the dash if I really wanted that

markon ,

Yeah I want my autonomous electric town car to be fully open. We should be able to have sustainable cars if any cars at all. Cars you can’t easily repair or maintain are not sustainable.

InFerNo ,

That would have been the Sono Sion, but there was too little interest. Not enough preorders meant they ran out of money to continue development.

96VXb9ktTjFnRi ,

Off topic: I’d argue Love Exposure by Sion Sono is the best movie ever made.

wewbull ,

You don’t need a computer in a car, especially an electric one. Sure, you want some electronics, but do you think 1970s milk floats had computers in them. Today’s EVs are basically the same thing with better motors and batteries.

Software control should be kept for luxury aspects of the vehicle. Nothing critical.

derpgon ,

Software control should be kept for luxury aspects of the vehicle. Nothing critical.

Tesla would disagree, lol. But then again, for the price, the whole car is a luxury.

Go to hell Elon

Codilingus ,

I have never heard of a vehicle that was referred to as a milk float, ever. What they is?!

wewbull ,

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float

Basically how milk men would deliver fresh milk to your doorstep in the early hours of the morning.

spyd3r ,
@spyd3r@sh.itjust.works avatar

Wellllll… you rip all that computerized shit out, disconnect the ECU out and strap a carburetor on the engine and make the car what it should have been all along, an entirely mechanical machine.

ByteJunk ,
@ByteJunk@lemmy.world avatar

Someone surely tried this on a Tesla by now…

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org avatar

Nothing wrong with ECUs and other electronics as long as it's not designed to fuck you. Computerized regulation of engine processes is a good thing, locking things down and making them unrepairable is bad.

IphtashuFitz ,

Hell, I’d be happy with the manufacturers ensuring buggy ECU software is kept properly up-to-date. Long story short I spent months dealing with dying batteries in a pre-owned Honda CR/V that I bought from a dealer. After multiple dealer visits, jumpstarts from AAA, etc. I finally found references to two recall notices on my own that described my symptoms perfectly. The only problem was that my cars VIN wasn’t in the list of those affected by the recalls.

I took printouts of the recall notices to the dealer, and they agreed it sounded like issue I was having. They updated the ECU software and I never had battery issues any more as long as I had that car.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

Locked bootloaders should be illegal. Manufacturers should have to provide enough specs that third parties can write code that runs on the hardware.

0x0 ,

Manufacturers should have to provide enough specs that third parties can write code that runs on the hardware.

“But Crowdstrike” would probably be an argument against.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

“Security” as an excuse for self-serving bullshit isn’t new.

Sure, there’s a risk of breaking things. I can do that with a hacksaw and a soldering iron too, and it’s widely recognized that it isn’t up to the manufacturer of the thing to keep me from breaking it. We need the same understanding for devices that depend on software.

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

Without right to repair, there will be planned obsolescence.

My Citroen EV developed an on board charger fault. It wouldn’t charge. The part was a “coded part” which meant it had to specifically programmed with my EV’s ID by Citroen at manufacture. It took months to finally be fitted and ready. So basically, not only does the coded parts system make service shit, but also means when the manufacturer is done making the part, the car is dead. You can’t swap parts between cars and there is no third party parts. It’s meant to be about car theft, but it’s very convenient it blocks competition and long product life…

derpgon ,

If it was a carburetor (which EVs do not have), I’d be okay with a DRM. But boards? Is there an organized crime group that steals EV boards? Next time it will be funking wipers with DRM.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

How would carburetor DRM make any sense? Those are super common to take apart and rebuild or replace (like step 1 of every old restoration).

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

They DRM it all if we let them. We must not. It should going the other way. More open, repairable and upgradable.

Wanderer ,

Hopefully self driving cars take over the world and all the idiots get off the road anyway. No one will have to be concerned.

I would hope for public transport and cycle paths but the public have repeatedly shown to be against that.

amanda ,
@amanda@aggregatet.org avatar

The public are usually very for that after it’s been implemented. They hate it before, assuming you include people who live outside the area where it’s being built but imagine they might want to some say drive there in “the public”. It’s much more of a mixed bag if you don’t.

Wanderer ,

Until it needs to be funded. A large part of the public think public transport should be entirely funded from tickets and if it isn’t profitable from that it should be shut down and turned into more space for cars.

Where as the true profit of public transport is in other things. E.g. the land valuation around a railway station is way higher than it would be without. The public also seem to be against land value taxes.

The worlds doomed by idiots.

fubarx ,

It’s not just cars. Anything with electronics (appliances, smarthome devices, healthcare, transportation) that is designed to last more than three years will hit a wall.

The host devices are designed to last 10-15 years, but the electronics will be out-of-date in 3-5 years.

The processor manufacturer will have moved on to new tech and will stop making spare parts. The firmware will only get updated if something really bad happens. Most likely, it’ll get abandoned. And some time soon, the software toolchain and libraries will not be available anymore. Let’s not think of the devs who will have moved on. Anyone want to make a career fixing up 10-yo software stack? Where’s the profit in that for the manufacturer?

So as an end-user, you’re stuck with devices that can not be updated and there’s still at least 10-20 years of life left on them. Best of luck.

Solution: go analog. Pay extra if you have to. They’ll last longer and the ROI and privacy can’t be beat.

wewbull ,

The problem isn’t analogue Vs digital, or even software controlled or not. It’s about the design assuming:

  1. The manufacturer will always exist
  2. The manufacturer should be the only one to maintain the device.
  3. The manufacture will define what the owner will do with the device.

An analogue device can be at fault too. Proprietary parts. Construction techniques which don’t allow for dissambly without destroying things. All that stuff.

…but you’re right. Buy the items that let you service them, that don’t rely on cloud servers and software updates, that use standard parts, etc, etc. Right to repair legislation is good too, but the companies understand purchasing power more. So educate those around you too.

AnarchoSnowPlow ,

Analogue doesn’t have firmware that can reject a device based on id.

So you can reverse engineer a replacement part if you absolutely have to.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

A lot of what’s driving these decisions is the mass switch to subscription models. Everything’s designed so you have to keep coming back to the manufacturer.

It used to be making a high quality, standalone product meant you could spend less on customer service and RMA’s. Now they’ve figured out they can sell you service contracts and make money off you being locked in.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yes and no. My “smart” TV is still doing just fine a good decade since I bought it… by never connecting it to the internet.

AlexWIWA ,

I’ve been screaming about this for years and no one listens. My old car will run longer than my new one because I can change the head unit in the old one

1984 ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Noone listens because they want people to buy new cars every 10-15 years. Capitalism endgame where companies don’t care about what the consumer wants anymore, as long as they make sure consumers don’t have choices.

wewbull ,

Your family members want that?

No, they don’t listen because they don’t understand.

helpmyusernamewontfi ,

Some people don’t care enough to try and understand

AlexWIWA ,

I think no one listens to me because I’m just some dude, lol. You right though

Bertuccio ,

Now?

frigidaphelion ,

Headlines now are now not even now proofread now

jeffw OP ,
@jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

To be fair, I used the Lemmy auto-generated title. They did fix the title that actually displayed on their website.

But thanks, I fixed the post title

NegativeInf ,

It’s not a computer if it can’t run doom. And I look forward for Linux variants specific to vehicles.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

Phones are supported well beyond their average ownership lifetime.

Are they?

NegativeInf ,

Supported in the sense that “We will update your device and deliberately slow it, break it, or brick it because fuck you.”

subignition ,
@subignition@fedia.io avatar

My hunch is that "average ownership lifetime" for mobile phones is MUCH lower than you or I (or anyone who is careful with their phone) probably expects. There is probably a too-big segment of the market that is trading in yearly for a newer model.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Some certainly are. Most consumers keep their phones 2-3 years. Many are supported well beyond that.

simplejack ,
@simplejack@lemmy.world avatar

Many now. Up until recently it was pretty common for manufacturers to leave you SOL after 2 major Android releases.

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

By communities, but not the manufacturer. Custom ROMs is the only way to keep it up to date for long enough for the hardware to become too old to be worth it.

No custom ROM for cars anytime soon.

dgriffith ,

There’s plenty of custom ROMs for cars from all major manufacturers, you just don’t know where to look.Google “ECU remap” or “dpf delete” for an idea. ECU remapping has been done by bold individuals ever since there were programmable ECUs, around 1985.

Apart from engine/drive line tinkering, there are also plenty of third party software that can tinker with body computers for “lifestyle” adjustments.

Is it easy and accessible? No. Because of environmental laws - and vendor lock in - you can’t generally and easily dick around with the control software in your car. But it does exist.

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

I know, but there us as quiet war going on between the chippers and manufacturers. EV is a new battle front and we the consumers are losing right now.

Law makes need to join this century and get involved ensuring competition and longer product lives.

mox ,

I’m disappointed to find this article is mainly about losing premium subscription features that use mobile internet, which I see as little more than expensive spyware. I don’t want them in the first place, and although I believe that some people might, it doesn’t seem like one of the important issues around car technology or transportation in general.

The promise is a “smartphone on wheels”: a car that automakers can continue to improve well after an owner drives away from a showroom.

I feel a more worthwhile discussion would be about how a long a “smartphone on wheels” will remain useful compared to one that doesn’t depend on continually updated software. How much more often will they need to be replaced? How much more will that cost people? How much more waste and pollution will be generated because of shorter car lifetimes? What sort of right-to-repair laws do we need here?

Seems like a missed opportunity.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

I hate these proprietary systems because companies have very bad track records in terms of maintenance, since they’d rather you buy a newer product.

In 2022, the automaker told drivers of the affected cars, some only three years old, that a technical solution was delayed by the pandemic. Now, more than two years later, those drivers still don’t have access to telematics services. […] Vehicles from Hyundai and Nissan, some as late as model year 2019, also lost some features after 2022’s 3G sunset.

In a country with good consumer rights, this would be a valid reason to return it and get a replacement or refund: It’s no longer offering functionality that was advertised and that you paid for as part of the purchase price.

FrostyPolicy ,
@FrostyPolicy@suppo.fi avatar

In a country with good consumer rights, this would be a valid reason to return it and get a replacement or refund: It’s no longer offering functionality that was advertised and that you paid for as part of the purchase price.

In the EU this would probably be a no-brainer.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Same in Australia, where I’m from. I’m living in the USA now and it’s a lot harder to get refunds for things like this.

norimee ,

The mandatory warranty for any product in the EU is 2 years. It doesn’t take into account products like cars that you would expect to be usable for 10+ years.

I doubt you could claim anything in the EU either after more than 2 years.

I’m not an expert on this, if there are some regulations I didnt take into account, please correct me.

dan , (edited )
@dan@upvote.au avatar

The mandatory warranty for any product in the EU is 2 years

I don’t know a lot about EU policies. In Australia, products must last for as long as a reasonable consumer would expect them to last (for example, 10 years for a large appliance like a fridge), including advertised features or features a sales rep told you about, regardless of the warranty period. A company removing features only three years after purchase would absolutely qualify for a refund or replacement.

I think Australia’s policies are stricter than the EU though. As far as I know, Australia is the only country where you can return games on Steam if there’s a major bug, even if you’ve had it for months and have hundreds of hours of game time. Valve got sued by the government and fined AU$3 million because they tried their “no refunds after 2 hours of game play” approach in Australia, which is illegal there (you can’t have conditions like that on refunds if the refund is for a major issue). pcgamer.com/valve-posts-a-notice-about-australian…

norimee ,

products must last for as long as a reasonable consumer would expect them to last (for example, 10 years for a large appliance like a fridge),

I never heard about anything like this in the EU. If my fridge or washing machine breaks after 2 years and 1 week I have no legal claim towards the manufacturer.

Actually most big electronic retailers try to sell you additional warranty with the product you buy. So you pay extra to extend warranty to 5 years.

I like the Australian aproach better, though.

anivia ,

No, it wouldn’t. The same thing happened when 3G was shut off here and there was no recourse for consumers.

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