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Linux Inventor Says He Doesn’t Believe in Crypto

  • Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, does not believe in cryptocurrencies, calling them a vehicle for scams and a Ponzi scheme.
  • Torvalds was once rumored to be Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto, but he clarified it was a joke and denied owning a Bitcoin fortune.
  • Torvalds also dismissed the idea of technological singularity as a bedtime story for children, saying continuous exponential growth does not make sense.
Suavevillain ,
@Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

He is just like me. I don’t mess with the chucky cheese token money.

Alenalda ,

What you don’t want to buy my Disney dollers? How about if I throw in some monopoly money?

JackbyDev ,

You know what’s hilarious? Disney dollars were more regulated than most cryptocurrencies.

Tachikoma741 ,

Oddly enough lots of people do mess with V-Bucks for FortNite, Riotpoints for League of Legends, and/or CoD points for Call of Duty. Damn you chucky cheese money in my video games!

drathvedro , (edited )

There are two types of people: those who had their money stolen by the government and those that did not.

UPD: Screw gamblers and shills, though, with that I can at least agree.

Snapz ,

True.

Allero ,

Cryptocurrency is a useful technology that has some real-world use cases - for example, living in Russia, I use it to circumvent sanctions to donate to some of the crypto-friendly creators, pay for a VPS abroad, and I keep calm knowing I can transfer money to my relatives abroad.

However, it is obviously not the answer to how we should build the financial system. The problem is not environment, actually - many Proof-of-Stake blockchains allow to transfer crypto with minimal environmental impact - but the poor on-chain regulation (including taxation, too) and potentially excessive infrastructure, as well as little protections against malicious and fraudulent actors.

Besides, inability to control emission, while helping maintain the value of the currency over the long run, also means that many interventions that can save economy in a crisis are simply not available. And a deflationary nature is known to cause bubbles.

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

Exactly! My usecase is exactly the same as yours.

While massively flawed, for now it is the most viable alternative financial system we have.

ahriboy ,

Russians working abroad might find cryptocurrency useful.

itsmect ,

And a deflationary nature is known to cause bubbles.

I mean centuries of inflationary monetary policy also caused bubbles, sooo…

Allero ,

Yes, but that was caused by other factors, while deflationary policy directly leads to them as it punishes spending, but rewards accumulation. As a result, everyone sits on a pile of cash, and they either don’t spend it, like, ever, grinding economy to a halt, or start buying, strongly depreciating the currency and forming a death spiral.

itsmect ,

I am aware of the basic arguments behind inflation/deflation, and neither is good in excess.

Typically central banks targets inflation of 2% these days, but we all know the real inflation for necessities is far higher (>4%). Inflation disproportionately affects the poorer - rich people have the fast majority of their wealth “stored” in stocks or real estate, which rise in valuation as people rush into these markets to protect the little they have. I’d argue that inflation rates are artificially pushed far higher then is sustainable, simply because those who decide are the same people who benefit the most.

I consider a low but predictable inflation rate about 1% ideal (0-2% is acceptable short term variation) for the following reasons:

  • No one has to worry about debasing/devaluing your currency by injecting more supply.
  • Nobody “passively” gains wealth by sitting on it.
  • If you want to keep your wealth, you have to take some risk and use it.
  • Inflation rate is not so high, that you need super high risk investments to keep up, making it more accessible to small players.
  • Large player can not as easily game the market by skimming of value from the lower to upper middle class.

Yes, this idea is not without risks. But the way I see it the forced “we have to improve value by 2% every year” exponential grow can only go on so long before we (humanity) hit the finite limits of this planet.

Allero , (edited )

Absolutely! Inflation has to be lower, that’s for sure. I’d even argue that the need for inflation is more of a feature of a capitalist economy.

Having to force spending/investment is only important as long as the very economy is built around overconsumption and private investment.

We can absolutely live with a more or less stable currency if we focus on sustainability and put the people first. Money should return to be the means to just get what we need, and we should stop building the economy around creating artificial demand.

iAvicenna , (edited )
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

Lets see, cryptocurrencies involve tech bros, fin bros and lots of money. I am not surprised it is on its way to become the most disgusting money making scheme in the world.

kn98 ,
@kn98@feddit.nl avatar

I only like two cryptocurrencies.

Nano: free transactions, each wallet runs it’s own blockchain, so it’s got no negative impact on the environment.

Monero: allows for anonymous transfers

___ ,

Then you like Bitcoin too, since it pegs them.

kn98 ,
@kn98@feddit.nl avatar

No, because I’m not a trader. It’s not all about the exchange rate for me, but about the utility of the coin.

Most coins exist because other coins exist. Nano and Monero not necessarily.

___ ,

BitCoin was the progenitor of those projects and rapidly gained value after strong usage (aka utility) and the ensuing scarcity. So you like BTC?

kn98 ,
@kn98@feddit.nl avatar

No, because one transaction uses as much energy as a normal household in a year. Or something like that.

___ ,

Right, so fork it and make BTC Lite.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I ask this sincerely, what have you personally needed an anonymous currency for?

shortwavesurfer ,

Buying groceries. Personally, I guess I don’t need an anonymous cryptocurrency, but why wouldn’t you have an anonymous cryptocurrency? That would be the equivalent of letting everybody in the world see your bank account and your withdrawals and deposits. And who would do that? That and while people would like you to believe otherwise, you still have a right to privacy.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

In the case of groceries, use cash? I understand the overall privacy issue, and I don’t fall into the “I have nothing to hide so why should I care” category, but I struggle to find a real world example of where an anonymous digital currency would be required outside of illegal purchases. There are certainly “illegal” purchases that shouldn’t be illegal, depending on your area. Birth control will be a big one.

shortwavesurfer ,

The problem is that cash suffers from the same thing that digital money does being inflation by the government, whichever government you happen to live under. Ask people in Argentina or Venezuela how good cash is. The answer is it’s not. The government cannot be allowed to print money because they will abuse that power and hurt everybody.

redisdead ,

I’m sorry, do you think inflation doesn’t apply to prices just because they are using a different sign?

shortwavesurfer ,

Inflation occurs when governments print money and so with these cryptocurrencies, at least the good ones, the amount that is printed is known in advance and will never exceed certain boundaries. So even though the greedy people may wish to print more for themselves, they cannot do it because the system will not let them. And right now the system is perfectly happy to let them and fuck everybody else.

redisdead ,

That is such a poor understanding of how inflation works but I suppose it’s par for the course when talking to a cryptobro

Have a nice day

shortwavesurfer ,

You do the same. Have a wonderful day.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

And remember, crypto is super stable 🙄

Honytawk ,

It instead gets inflated by crypto exchanges which have no regulations and only exist to make a quick buck.

shortwavesurfer ,

The big difference, though, is that if a crypto exchange says that there’s more crypto than exists, they have to make good on that promise. Or they, you know, go bankrupt because they don’t actually have the money they say they have. Where would they government? That’s not the case. There are only 21 million Bitcoin available. If a crypto exchange tries to make it sound like there are more than that, then people will pull their money off of that exchange and then exchange will go bankrupt because they can’t produce the money.Also, real crypto people don’t rely on centralized exchanges anyway. They either trade peer to peer or use decentralized exchanges that can’t be manipulated like that.

witx ,

I read somewhere that someone was using anonymous currencies to buy life saving medicine from “non traditional” markets because they were much much cheaper. Let me see if I find the article

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Well, that might be the only form of payment they take, and so you’ve got to use it I suppose. But the anonymous part really isn’t a huge factor here.

I would be a little cautious of buying “non traditional” medication from someone who doesn’t want a paper trail.

Unless you mean drugs, and then yes a paper trail is bad haha.

witx ,

Haha no drugs in that article at least. I can’t find it but I think it was either for diabetes or asthma

itsmect ,

In most countries it’s illegal to purchase or sell non-OTC medicine without a doctors note (buyer) and license (seller). Even if government doesn’t care, I’m sure that big pharma would like to keep their profit margins.

kn98 ,
@kn98@feddit.nl avatar

I like it as a way to donate to creators without revealing my identity. It comes close to handing over cash.

You could also use it to pay for a VPN, but since the VPN provider sees your original IP address anyways, I don’t think that’s useful.

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

Another use I can think of is paying for a domain and registering it with fake info. Registrars require pretty sensitive information, and apparently can check if it is real by comparing it to the info tied to a card used to pay, which crypto eliminates.

Wish there were more XMR-accepting registrars though.

itsmect ,

One time phone numbers are another good thing, to avoid the ever increasing tracking we are all exposed to.

itsmect ,

Love it for donations. Monero specifically is also super fast: open wallet, scan QR, enter amount, hit send. Easily done in 30s or less.

It’s also good for VPNs, because now the VPN provider needs to figure out who owns the IP, rather then looking up the clear name in the payment info. Doesn’t make you anonymous, but reduces risk of data brokers buying your personal info.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

I use anonymous currency daily without issue. It’s called cash.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

You can’t use cash online tho

Blackmist ,

You just have to fold it really small to poke it down the wires.

DickFiasco ,

It’s a series of tubes, actually. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

True. Although you can put cash on a debit card and spend that online. Pseudo anonymous because there is some degree of traceability.

Aux ,

In which fairy tale cash is anonymous?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

All fairy tales. Stories are awash with bags of coins and no-one ever worries who owned the cash previously.

Aux ,

Yeah, tell that to the officers who investigate fake cash and money laundering.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Sorry. Which fairy tales have officers who investigate fake cash and money laundering?

Neither of which have anything to do with the anonymity of cash.

Mo5560 ,

The obvious one is buying drugs. I don’t feel like arguing the morality of doing that but anonymous money is definitely useful for that.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I’ve bought drugs online and in person so don’t worry about judgement. Drugs are fun.

EngineerGaming , (edited )
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

I used Monero to pay for my domain and VPS while under sanctions and thus failed by the mainstream payment system. And in daily life I use pretty much only cash.

Also the phrasing of this implies some “nothing-to-hide” mentality. Would I be in danger if I paid for my stuff with a KYC method? Not really, I connect to my VPS and request my domain daily from home, their existence is not secret. Do I benefit from the transaction being anonymous? Still yes, the less data you trust the third parties with, the better. Same as to why I encrypt my chats even though they are mundane. Just because they are nobody’s business.

itsmect ,

nothing-to-hide

In most civilized countries the law is “innocent until proven guilty” - and if I (and the vast majority of people) are innocent, why the fuck is tracking a thing?

itsmect ,

My preferred lemmy instance is funded with xmr.

Laser ,

Omg we’re cryptocurrency twins. I hold exactly these two for the same reasons

shortwavesurfer ,

I only use Monero, but still, it’s a very good one.

lemming741 ,

Hold? Or use?

Laser ,

Mostly holding Nano, used Monero quite often - should probably spend some Nano at one point… But vendors accepting it here are rare

Psythik ,

What about ETH? It also doesn’t use electricity.

explodicle ,

Isn’t Nano the one where they distributed the coins by CAPTCHA, but there was a central party that verified all these CAPTCHAs? They could just have given themselves 51% of the coins for free.

kn98 ,
@kn98@feddit.nl avatar

Initial distribution was through a captcha-protected crypto ‘faucet’. The faucet is still up. Did the developers keep a large part of the coins themselves? I’ve never heard that.

explodicle ,

There’s no way to audit that.

hector ,

I mean yeah… Linus may not like it but people will still build on top of Ethereum & others

erwan ,

Crypto means cryptography, stop using it to talk about cryptocurrency.

englislanguage ,

Yeah, that headline is very misleading. Crypto(graphy) is essential for the digital world to exist whereas the other stuff is a pyramid & money laundering scheme.

Emmie ,

It’s useful for buying drugs online on the dark web so I for one like it

datelmd5sum ,

my man

SHOW_ME_YOUR_ASSHOLE ,

Which market are people using nowadays? I haven’t kept up to speed over the last few years.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

All the fentanyl you can snort.

shortwavesurfer ,

So the equivalent of the population of the United States plus 40% are money-londerers. Because somewhere between five and seven percent of the world’s population uses cryptocurrency and that’s 400 million to 550 million people.

kaffiene ,

I doubt it

shortwavesurfer ,

statista.com/…/global-cryptocurrency-user-base/

This is more Australia-focused, but www.forbes.com/…/cryptocurrency-statistics/

www.bankrate.com/…/cryptocurrency-statistics/

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Increasing demographics might initially be attributed to a rise in the number of accounts and improvements in identification. In 2021, however, crypto adoption continued as companies like Tesla and Mastercard announced their interest in cryptocurrency. Consumers in Africa, Asia, and South America were most likely to be an owner of cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin, in 2022.

That’s functionally the nut of it. People in countries that lack a traditional western banking sector but enjoy internet access can piggyback on the network of banks with crypto-interfaces. This is more a consequence of the unregulated wing of the financial sector than an raw utility of cryptocurrency itself.

If WellsFargo won’t ratify me as a client, but Coinbase will, I’m stuck dealing in bitcoin simply because I can’t get a credit card denominated in USD.

saigot ,

No some of them are the marks.

But if we want to play bad faith statistics games then 5% is roughly the percent of Americans who have gone to prison.

retrieval4558 ,

It’s not “misleading,” because the vast majority of people understand what the current colloquial use of crypto is.

Screemu ,

Not the nerds on Lemmy.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

A certain irony in a synonym for “secret” being a term everyone’s implicitly familiar with.

dQw4w9WgXcQ ,

“Have you invested in crypto?”

Do you think anyone anywhere will misunderstand this as investing in cryptographic research/development?

The mainstream usage of the word isn’t always aligned with what is good for society or even the original usage of the word.

englislanguage ,

I guess I’m getting old then 😜

pyre ,

good luck, I’m sure this comment will change how everyone talks from now on.

oce ,
@oce@jlai.lu avatar

Crypto means hidden, stop using it to talk about cryptography.

SOB_Van_Owen ,

It’s also sometimes used as shorthand for crypto-orchidism -undescended testicles.

ExFed ,

Ahh, so… crypto, which is based on crypto, can be used to pay for treatments to crypto.

Got it.

erwan ,

Crypto currencies doesn’t mean “hidden currency”, it means currency based on cryptography.

ExFed ,

Do you mean to say that crypto is based on crypto? Crazy!

TheFriar ,

They meant that choosing one possible definition and saying it’s what the word means is stupid. Words mean pretty much what everyone agrees they mean. Look at all the words that have basically flipped definitions since their inception. Just because the modern derivative of a word means something literally everyone understands but is slightly different than what it used to mean doesn’t mean the oldest answer is the correct one. Unwad your jock.

Mango ,

Did you just defeat your whole original point yourself?

MalachaiConstant ,

Is it not clear which definition of Crypto he’s using?

Linus coming out against cryptography seems so unrealistically silly to me that it’s not even worth considering.

Magnetar ,

The security of Linux 2000 will be based entirely on steganography, Linux founder announces

suction , (edited )

Never heard it commonly used as a short form for “cryptography”. But did hear it commonly used for “Cryptocurrency”. Why not let the morons have it? Do you have a scam running that relies on “Crypto” being short for “Cryptography”? Using “cool” brevs is the mark of the amateur anyway, if someone said “crypto” to me when he meant cryptography, I’d forever judge them as a silly person.

11111one11111 ,

Wait… whose the moron here? Lol

Natanael ,

Before 2010 it was almost exclusively used to refer to cryptography, outside of some even more niche fields (parts of biology, political sciences, etc)

I run /r/crypto on reddit, for cryptography, and the spam is horrendous and the flood of idiots is never ending

Cosmicomical ,

You are aware that the “crypto” part of cryptocurrency is short for cryptographic, right?

suction ,

No I’m not

Cosmicomical ,

Ah ok, sorry

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Cryptocurrency is a currency based on cryptographic keys.

Kalabasa ,
@Kalabasa@programming.dev avatar

cryptoisnotcryptocurrency.com

aesthelete ,

Ok based upon one dude’s opinion I’ll purposely create a communication problem between me and anyone who ever tries to discuss this stuff with me.

Or I could just toss this opinion in the garbage…

Decisions decisions

shotgun_crab ,

That’s like asking people to say kilograms instead of kilos

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

The focus of what Torvalds said is the concept of tech singularity. TL;DR “nice fiction, it doesn’t make sense in a reality of finite resources”. I’ll move past that since most of the discussion is around cryptocurrencies.

Now, copypasting what he says about cryptocurrencies:

For the record, I also don’t believe in crypto currencies (except as a great vehicle for scams - they have certainly worked very well for the “spread the word to find the next sucker holding the bag” model of Ponzi schemes). Nor do I believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the Easter bunny.

For those who understood this excerpt as “Tarvalds thinks that cryptocurrencies dant ezizt lol lmao”: do everyone a favour and go back to Reddit with your blatant lack of reading comprehension. When he says that he doesn’t believe in them, he’s saying that he does not see them as a viable alternative to traditional currency. (He does not say why, at least not in that message.)

And for those eager to babble “ackshyually ponzi schemes work different lol lmao”: you’re bloody missing the point. He’s highlighting that a large part of the value associated with cryptocurrencies is speculation, not its actual usage. Even cryptocurrency enthusiasts acknowledge this.

I apologise to the others - who don’t fit either category of trashy people I mentioned above - for the tone. Read the comments in this very thread and you’ll likely notice why of the tone.

helpImTrappedOnline ,

Nor do I believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the Easter bunny.

How we supposed to get people to switch to Linux with this guy spouting nonsense? /s

madsen ,

Nowhere does he say that he doesn’t believe in Wunterslash, so I’m cool with him.

AI_toothbrush ,

I think crypto does have its place in anonymous transfers and stuff like that but the current form of crypto isnt that. First of all it would need to be something stable and crypto is everything but stable.

shortwavesurfer ,

All currencies fluctuate against each other, but in most cases the currencies all fluctuate downwards in value within very close proximity to each other. You only see cracks start to appear when one currency becomes much weaker than the other ones. Look at the Japanese yen in the most recent days for an example. The big difference is that with the major cryptocurrencies the supply is either capped or very seriously constrained so it actually goes up in value while every other fiat currency in the world goes down in value over time.

AI_toothbrush ,

Inventor sounds funny but i guess its correct

SwingingKoala ,
@SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

It’s not surprising tbh. Most millionaires like Linus or tech people in general have so much money that the problems of the financial system don’t impact their lives.

Torvalds also dismissed the idea of technological singularity as a bedtime story for children, saying continuous exponential growth does not make sense.

Continuous exponential growth is actually something our financial system was DESIGNED FOR. It it makes no sense our inflationary money makes no sense.

Wootz , (edited )

Crypto is not going to fix the financial system, nor will it make you a millionaire.

SwingingKoala ,
@SwingingKoala@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Like I said, privileged people who don’t think that bitcoin is useful.

explodicle ,

And if it did, then that’s why you’re selling it!

itsmect ,

Continuous exponential growth is actually something our financial system was DESIGNED FOR. It it makes no sense our inflationary money makes no sense.

This is the most hilarious part. One system literally has exponential growth, while the other is literally created to combat this.

rottingleaf ,

I hate the word “inventor”

chemicalwonka ,
@chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

comrade Torvalds?

kuroda ,

Its just a big money laundering scheme

Yawweee877h444 ,

And/or a fucking casino

shortwavesurfer ,

So you are saying more than the population of the United States as money launderers because somewhere between 400 and 550 million people use cryptocurrency. I kind of doubt they are all money launderers.

explodicle ,

Why not? Couldn’t crypto be enabling money laundering on a massive scale?

shortwavesurfer ,

This one is a bit old, but… medium.com/…/privacy-coins-debunking-myths-about-…

I can’t find it at the moment, but I saw a report for 2023 or 2024 that something like 0.4% of all crypto transactions are illicit activity. So that would mean roughly 1.9 million people use it for such activity, which is a far cry from 400 million.

Lucidlethargy ,

A bad one, at that. I think the reason many governments are going with it is because it’s far less untraceable than some idiots like to believe.

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