In fact, I’ve heard Google is especially bad here. You only get ahead by shipping a product, and getting a project approved is largely politicking. It’s one of the more political business environments around.
My company seems a lot better. We don’t have aggressive ladder climbing like the big tech firms, we instead value consistency.
You only get ahead by shipping a product, and getting a project approved is largely politicking
Yep - I had a friend who worked for three years at Google, none of the products he worked on ever shipped and eventually he gave up on ever receiving a good salary (bonuses/stock options/etc are supposed to be most of the pay, but you only get that by working on a successful product)
They have ten major campuses worldwide that focus on product development, but only one of those actually ships products regularly.
Indeed ! This Would be much easier to take seriously if Sundar hadn’t meet with Sunak, Modi, Biden et al. In the first year or so since getting the job.
If I’m not mistaken there’s a more long winded watered down version at the end of a bunch of bs now. I may be misremembering or out of the loop on subsequent updates and changes though
Discussing politics at the work place has been an HR violation for some time, but speaking against the company policy or its customers has always been a fireable ofense. I’m not sure why this surprises anyone.
Sure, google is an evil corporation and there’s lots of reasons to hate them, but why are we focusing on this specific thing which is common across all workplaces?
And yes, if you find out your employer is constructing concentration camps and you openly speak against that, you’re probably going to lose your job. Why is this even a question?
Lol you’re getting tossed in jail doing this in a communist society…this isn’t about capitalism at all. It’s about keeping people from creating a hostile work environment, look how polarized politics is online, shit gets heated in a work setting? It’s a no go for any sane company wanting to keep the peace between employees.
No one said it hasn’t helped it some, but until you have magical replicators like in star trek, people will still be people. You cannot stop human nature to want more.
I think maybe you’re conflating capitalism and politics.
The need for workers to voice out against company policies and actions often necessary for safety of workers, customers, etc. This is required for capitalism to work to any standard.
Its not hard to see how firing employees for noting safety problems can cause problems. The obvious case for this is Boeing where they started punishing people for doing basic quality control work.
In what country do you think you’re allowed to violate company policy?
Lol did you already forget what you said? Or did your original comment actually say, “Violating company policy at the work place has been an HR violation for some time…” Because yeah, no shit. Somehow I don’t think that’s what you were going for…
Did you purposefully completely change the topic, or was that some kind of “sly” attempt to pivot? Shit is real weird.
Maybe you were about to ask the actual logical follow-up question of, “In what country do you think you’re allowed to discuss politics at work?” before doing a quick google search and realizing you’d make yourself look even stupider.
As if the entire conversation wasn’t about whether or not something should be allowed to be a company’s policy. Not whether or not employees should be able to break their work’s HR policy. Do you not see the distinction here?
You must be very confused. I did not forget anything. I’m simply making the claim that your impression that this happens only in my “shitty” country is wrong and if you tell me what country you live in, I can give you multiple examples of it happening there too. You’re probably misinformed or ignorant of the law if you think it doesn’t.
“A company should not be able to make X part of their policy.”
In what country is an employee allowed to violate their company’s policy?
That’s you. If only there was a word for this… Shmallacy?
The actual question would be,
In what country is an employer barred from firing a person for talking about politics?
Maybe I’m giving you too much credit, but I feel like you knew this and realize how stupid you sounded. The better thing to do would probably just have been to quietly exit the conversation.
By the way, check usernames, I just entered this thread.
Even if we ignore what @prole wrote, in civilized countries you’re allowed to break company policy if it infringes your rights, regardless of what a contract says.
Discussing politics at the work place has been an HR violation for some time, but speaking against the company policy or its customers has always been a fireable ofense. I’m not sure why this surprises anyone.
Looks like a navel-gazing USA thing. Here in Europe I cannot imagine that there’s many companies who’d fire workers for protesting or tells them to shut up forever.
You should be aware of the fact that Google & the others have offices in Europe and they have the same policy here too. These type of policies fit well within the legal framework in most EU countries. And I guarantee that people would get fired over protests disrupting the workplace if found unwarranted.
That’s not actually true. Even in Sweden, employees can be fired for misconduct and what constitutes misconduct is a complex matter. But more importantly, in the Tesla case, those employees are on strike which is a different issue.
They can be fired for misconduct, yes, What makes you think protests or giving opinons on work related mtter, possibly supoorted by a union, would be interpreted as “misconduct”? Can you give an example of a case like that where misconduct was having an issue with selling products to war criminals or similar?
Publicly labeling customers as “war criminals” is misconduct and will get you fired anywhere in the world, yes. Stop pretending you misunderstand this simple fact.
That’s stupid. How can I show you an instance of someone talking against a customer publicly is Sweden? Calming that employees cannot get fired for damaging the business in any country is completely false. Thinking that the situation in Sweden with Tesla is similar to what happened in Google is completely ignorant.
I understand simple facts extremely well. The problem is that you’re trying to make this situation into something it isn’t
You should be more careful on how you let information reach you. You have to be pretty ignorant to think that there exists a country which doesn’t allow business to fire employees.
Fair grounds for dismissal means that an employee is behaving in an undesirable way and is aware that the behaviour is not acceptable. As an employer, you are therefore obliged to make the employee aware that you consider their behaviour to be improper.
Misconduct, such as failure to cooperate, incompetence and poor work performance, can be fair grounds for dismissal on grounds of misconduct.
So yes, again we agree, there is a law of misconduct. Can you demonstrate any reasonable example where an employer in Sweden was fired on such grounds because they protest peacefully against their own company making an unethical deal with a questionable government or the like?
We both agree that misconduct is a thing. We disageew on what miscobduct means. I hope that makes it clear.
Have you read that article btw?
I am not sure what exactly you are asking me to show… in Sweden (as said in the link you posted and as I already know by actually working in Sweden for years) is that you have to warn workers of msiconduct and they can appeal your decision if it’s dumb as fuck (like what Google did). Do you have any reason at all to believe that workers in Sweden would be fired in a similar way? I don’y think so. This shit does not happen here, and there are mechanisms that give employees and unions power to stop it.
Like read this shit:
Google fired workers who willingly left the sit-in when asked by company officials, and also fired some workers who “had just stopped by to chat,” Hasan Ibraheem, one of the Google workers who was arrested and fired, said Monday during a news conference.
so do you have any case whatsoever that shows that this shit would fly at a Swedish company? One where it was legally challenged at least? If no, then what exactly is your point?
PS: sorry can’t be bothered to fix spelling lol. Your tone was so crap that it even put me off trying to explain my point. You cannot fire people in Sweden for doing whay those employees at Google did.
so do you have any case whatsoever that shows that this shit would fly at a Swedish company? One where it was legally challenged at least? If no, then what exactly is your point?
The fact that I don’t have an example doesn’t mean that it can’t happen. It just means that it hasn’t yet or that I don’t know of it. Just because you can’t show me an example of an atom bomb attack in Sweden or of me getting punched in the face in 2024 does not mean that these things can’t happen, does it? This whole thread started with people saying that this can’t happen in Europe. It absolutely can. And having worked in various corporations across Europe (though not Sweden specifically), I can tell you that they all have clauses in the work contract saying that you can be fired for conduct while representing the company, especially for conduct in relation to customers. So if Google employees would block the headquarters in Stockholm to convince the company to stop trading with Israel because it’s a genocidal state, I guarantee you they’d not be safe from disciplinary measures including termination.
I want to say I understand your point. You sre saying misconduct laws are vague and that allows employers to fire employees for BS. You also seem to think those Google employees committed some kind of ‘misconduct’. I disagree.
The issue in my opinion is that you are basing it on the law sounding vague… and ignoring the part where employees would receive warnings that first and foremost makes it clear to them that such a thing is regarded as misconduct and could lead to.termination… and you are ignoring that in is able to appeal the decision with the help of a union representative. Then you are ignoring all free speech laws and the fact that this is not a common culture or occurrence in Sqeden .
I work in Sweden and have read the law a million times. I also raised problems at work and challenged authority and was never fired nor sent to HR or anything like that. There are laws in Sweden that act as a safety net to prevent employers from firing a person for such trivial shit. Has this ever happened? If no one seems to interpret this as misconduct in Sweden, then where is your claim coming from?
So allow me to rephrase the question to you in a more civil way: aside from the “law being vague”, do you have reason(s) to believe that staging a sitdown as protest in Sweden or having coffee and a chat with people staging a reasonable peaceful and coordinated protest in Swede would get you fired?
This may be the case for some European countries (I have no idea and won’t speak our of my asa about places I don’t know much about) but not Sweden. If you never worked here, then you may not understand how Swedish law and unions work exactly with cases like this. I am quite thankful to live in this kind of society where my employer cannot fire me just because they would rather fund the literal mutilation of thousands of children and be complicit in international human rights violations.
And for the example you cited: as someone who has worked in Stockholm specifically and works there now: no, that would not be grounds to fire you, and you can appeal by law and get help from your union representative.
If you are unaware of Swedish law, I would advice that you avoid generalizing European laws to Sweden
I feel we need to discuss this first, because I completely disagree with you:
Then you are ignoring all free speech laws and the fact that this is not a common culture or occurrence in Sqeden .
Free speech has nothing to do with this situation. Nothing guarantees you there will be no consequences if you use your place of business for personal agenda. That’s not what free speech is about.
staging a reasonable peaceful and coordinated protest
I’m sorry, but you’re misclassifying the situation. Abusively occupying an office is not peaceful or reasonable. It is an attention forcing action and it can have consequences. They weren’t arrested for their views on the genocidal Israel state, they were arrested for being in a place they’re not legally allowed to be in. And they weren’t fired for their views on Israel, they were fired for criticising a company customer from the position of an employee
I think you misread Swedish law and are (on purpose?) misreading what happened at Google. I have nothing more to say other than the above in my previous comments. Have a nice day.
Not being able to discuss politics at work is not really the case for everyone though, it’s worker politics that aren’t allowed, if the politics agree with the owner class they’ll set up a PAC for it. Whoever heard of an executive or board member fired for discussing politics that paint the organization in a positive light? I also think it’s worth pointing out most companies would fire for this and are authoritative in structure and don’t allow for democratic practices like elections, petitioning, protesting, etc. Just because it’s that way now doesn’t mean it always will be with good labor protections.
I don’t get the comment here, they didn’t ‘express their opinion’ about Israel. They behaved like a bunch of lunatics within Google’s offices. If you want to protest Google’s actions send a signed letter of resignation stating the reason, send it to the press and form a union of techies that won’t work for companies that work with Israel recursively.
On a side note, I like how none of them mind building mass surveillance tools, pushing ads, Google-China relations, etc… But Israel’s genocide is trending, so they jump on that. What a bunch of shallow fucks.
I don’t get the comment here, they didn’t ‘express their opinion’ about Israel. They behaved like a bunch of lunatics within Google’s offices.
Yes, they did express their opinion on the ongoing genocide. They did that in a fashion that disturbed the workplace - which some comments seem to deem holy ground that should never be disturbed by anything - but they did express their opinion.
If you want to protest Google’s actions send a signed letter of resignation stating the reason, send it to the press and form a union of techies that won’t work for companies that work with Israel recursively.
Iirc they tried some regular stuff before resorting to this method. Also, it’s always funny how when people try to change things, they never seem to do it the right way.
On a side note, I like how none of them mind building mass surveillance tools, pushing ads, Google-China relations, etc… But Israel’s genocide is trending, so they jump on that. What a bunch of shallow fucks.
Well congrats on being less of a hyprocrite than the rest of us.
The world is shit, nothing goes in the right direction, and some of us are more sensitive to some issues than others.
I mean I despise alphabet and their business model, but I also understand than people are less horrified by their work being used to serve ads than it being used in a genocide. And again, I hate that ads exist.
Protestation and strike are supposed to inconvenience the higher ups, please stop advising to use methods that don’t disturb anything.
If you want to actually make a difference, leave Google, go do bioinformatics (am biased here), exact agriculture or any other shit that actually solves real problem.
All I see in those rallies a bunch of people that work at Google to maximize their earnings that are mad when Google does the same.
In the real world, not enough techies are willing to work on solving problems related food shortages (for example), while people are starving to death.
That’s because in the real world we’re all fighting to escape the threat of homelessness and starvation which is a constant spectre haunting any “techie” who is paying attention enough to see what’s going on.
Personally speaking: when me and mine are safe I’ll be dedicating 100% of my remaining life to outreach, teaching and non-profit work.
But as long as you’re dependant on another man to feed you every week you’re not safe: you’re helpless. That’s true regardless of if that man is a non-profit or if it’s a megacorp.
Starvation is not the same as Hunger, it’s a significantly more advanced stage of the thing.
I believe there’s even a 5-level UN scale for it and Gaza is at the worst level.
PS: Not seeing why it’s not valid to worry and act on both, by the way: doing something about World Hunger is not in any way incompatible with doing something about the Gaza Genocide.
Your whole point is grounded on the Falacy called a False Dilemma Falacy that you used a few posts ago, hence why it’s not logical - it’s really not an EITHER-OR choice, especially for people working at Google which is a company that does absolutelly nothing at all when it comes to reduce World Hunger.
The newest solution I know of is using optimization algorithms to vastly reduce the cost of experiments on vegetables storage. They not only showed how to optimize storage, they also showed how to store certain types cheaply for 4 times long.
One of the issues is food distribution, and that will help there.
Except that the issues with distribution have nothing to do with efficiency, they have to do with politics, economics, and corruption. Last I checked, we had or could produce enough food for everyone on the planet, but getting it to the right places was impossible for reasons that can’t be fixed with technology.
Improvements in storing vegetables can reduce waste, which is a good thing in and of itself, but aren’t going to feed people in famine-stricken areas that have no vegetables to store.
The point is, the main problems in most places with serious hunger issues are food being confiscated by government or militias, turned back at borders, or left to rot in port warehouses because no one’s sure what set of palms need to be greased before distribution will be permitted. Tech can’t fix those problems. As for improvements in local agriculture, that helps when the cause of the famine is natural, but not so much when the issue is farmers getting shot at in the fields or having their produce stolen at gunpoint.
Laudable, but highly ineffective when the org is Google. A few people rallying in the street against Google are not gonna change it, from inside or out.
I’m not saying the protest solved the issue, I was merely explaining why I disagreed with your arguments. Please don’t try and make me say things I didn’t.
As for the protest achieving nothing, I’m not sure how you back up that claim. It definitely changed how google is perceived by a few people who care a lot more about the genocide than they do about online privacy and ads. It also, sadly, probably made more employees afraid to express themselves on their workplace.
If you want to actually make a difference, leave Google, go do bioinformatics (am biased here), exact agriculture or any other shit that actually solves real problem.
There are countless ways to try and make a difference. I could argue that your work in bioinformatics is meaningless in a capitalist world and that you should either take up arms and organize raids to execute CEOs or do nothing (I actually disagree with this point, it’s just an extreme example).
Let’s not discourage the people who try and do things. Maybe they make mistakes, maybe they could be more efficient… but at least they try.
All I see in those rallies a bunch of people that work at Google to maximize their earnings that are mad when Google does the same.
Of course they’re mad. They went to work at Google, not Lockheed Martin or “insert other weapons manufacturer here”. And it’s a good thing ! Of course they still sold their time and skills to a shitty company and had an overall negative impact on the world, but they still care about human suffering when they are aware of it, and I prefer that to people who don’t care at all.
If you want to actually make a difference, leave Google, go do bioinformatics (am biased here), exact agriculture or any other shit that actually solves real problem
People get to decide what is a “real problem”.
I don’t see how finding out your labor supports genocide isn’t a real problem.
Iirc they tried some regular stuff before resorting to this method. Also, it’s always funny how when people try to change things, they never seem to do it the right way.
Did they resign though?
If you’re an employee protesting your own company you’re surprised they’d fire you?
Shouldn’t they have resigned first? Or did they really expect random employees with posters would make Google change their mind?
They got a blip in the newsfeed, woohoo. Google’s gonna continue to be evil, a few employees short. The world keeps turning.
They could resign and throw out an open letter, that would’ve netted them the same level of publicity. They probably new they’d be fired and opted for that instead.
It is ineffective regardless of whether it annoys me or not. (FYI - not that i give two shits about your opinion on me, i don’t - randos protesting amuses me at best, Israel killing people with the blessing of the world for over 70 years does annoy me).
On a side note, I like how none of them mind building mass surveillance tools, pushing ads, Google-China relations, etc… But Israel’s genocide is trending, so they jump on that. What a bunch of shallow fucks.
Billions of Google users will not comment to your comment nor be critical about Google but will continue sleeping watching their YouTube videos, use Google Gmail and do the most horrible things which we will never know about. Meanwhile the planet is burning by climate crisis and ridiculous wars in the so called civilized world. Yes, let’s be silent about Google and instead point fingers to those who dare to be critical for a few moments.
The pendulum is swinging back hard. Let’s just hope we don’t end up way deep into the danger since zone just because woke idiots couldn’t leave “good enough” alone.
That’s kind of a word salad there. In 2012 things may have been generally better for women in the USA due to Roe v. Wade standing, and there were more Confederate monuments than there are standing now, and trans people were generally not accepted by society as well as they are now. So I’m not sure what your point was.
The mixture is my point. Some things are better. Some things are worse. I specified for women because the backlash against woke has already hurt women badly.
The republiclowns taking away womens rights and blaming trans and gay people for their problems is much worse now than in 2012. This country lacks education which would solve all these problems, but educated people won’t blindly follow fox “news” and as a result there wouldn’t be many republicans in office which is why they’re doing everything they can along with help from Russia to hurt the education system and keep people ignorant. The result of better education would likely mean we’d step out of third world territory and get healthcare for all, including mental health which would increase the blue votes even more all the while decreasing mass shootings.
That doesn’t fly with the rich. Why do you pay more taxes than the rich? Trickle down? How’s that working out? They piss in your face and tell you it’s a trans persons fault, or an immigrant and the cult gets their pitchforks. It’s silly. It’s almost as silly as the gop backing a fucking domestic terrorist with 91 FELONIES.
Lol I can’t help but laugh at the disparity between the left vs. the right, when it comes to just general ability to speak coherently. Like is this even a coherent thought?
Like this is the best they’ve got. I guess it’s no wonder then that charlatans like Jordan Peterson can sink their hooks in so easily.
@theluddite@jeffw Since most people spend most of their best hours at the workplace, what this person is really saying is that there shouldn't be any politics at all. I.e., this is a confession: "I am an authoritarian".
“Google isnt the place for your politics. It is only a place for my politics. So get in line with my thinking or get the fuck out!” - Googles Chief Cunt.