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Georgia Senator Vows to Protect Girl, But Then Runs Away After Learning She Is Trans

During a visit to lobby legislators on transgender issues, Senator Carden Summers ® knelt down and told a child he would protect her. When he learned she was trans, he backed away.

On Feb. 6, a group of families met to lobby senators on issues affecting the local transgender community in Georgia. One mother, Lena Kotler, decided to take her two children with her to give the topic a human face. While waiting to meet with Democratic Sen. Kim Jackson, who they had heard was a big supporter of LGBTQ+ rights, another senator passed by — Republican Sen. Carden Summers, the primary sponsor of the state’s bathroom ban bill. Little did he know that one of the children he would be interacting with, Aleix, 8 years old, was a transgender child.

According to Kotler and other families who were present, the senator stopped to say hello. That’s when Kotler spoke to Senator Summers about how she was there with her kids to “talk to legislators about keeping her kids safe.” Although she did not mention that one of her children was trans, they were present with LGBTQ+ signage - something the Senator apparently missed when he knelt down in front of Aleix and said, according to Kotler, “Well you know, we’re working on that and I’m going to protect kids like you.”

Kotler then replied, “Yeah - Alex is trans, and she wants to be safe at school, she wants to go to the bathroom and be safe.”

That is when, according to multiple witnesses, Sen. Summers stood up and fumbled his words, repeating, “I mean, yeah, I’m going to make sure she’s safe by going to the right bathroom,” continuing to use the correct pronouns for Aleix. When asked if he would make her go to a boy’s bathroom, he then allegedly backed away, saying, “You’re attacking me,” turned around, and walked off quickly.

read more: erininthemorning.com/…/georgia-senator-vows-to-pr…

maness300 ,

How are children mature enough to realize they are trans?

Seems like children are too impressionable to be able to make decisions like that.

trafficnab ,

That’s why children have parents and medical professionals to ultimately investigate and make important decisions for them

maness300 ,

Yeah, because neither group has ever been manipulated into making the wrong decisions for other people.

trafficnab ,

You’re right, we should instead trust the well-known-as-100%-infallible politicians to unilaterally make those decisions for us instead

maness300 ,

Those are your words, not mine.

trafficnab , (edited )

Well what are you proposing? In my mind we either trust parents to be able to ultimately make decisions like this for their children, or we don’t and we make it illegal?

Every time I see someone bring up “why are we trusting kids to decide that they’re trans”, I remind them that they’re not making decisions by themselves, they have parents and counselors/doctors/professionals making decisions for them, which either is not engaged with (most common response) or is met with “We can’t trust parents and doctors either”.

Frankly, if we can’t broadly trust parents and childcare professionals to have their children’s best interests in mind, we’re already fucked, so we might as well do nothing and hopefully at least let the actual trans kids live their life in peace anyway.

FlyingSquid , (edited )
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

“I mean, yeah, I’m going to make sure she’s safe by going to the right bathroom,” continuing to use the correct pronouns for Aleix.

Gotta love that he doesn’t even realize he’s saying Aleix is a girl and girls should be using the girls’ bathroom.

Edit: I really want to know if the people downvoting me are anti-trans bigots or don’t understand that an anti-trans bigot accidentally took her side even after realizing she’s trans?

doggle ,

Worth noting he’s a senator in the state legislature, not one of Georgia’s federal senators who are both broadly pro LGBT+

grayman ,

8 year olds have an IQ around 20. There’s zero chance an 8 year old comprehends being trans. The mother is a narcissist.

UraniumBlazer ,

Have you actually met trans people? Have you talked to them about their childhoods?

grayman ,

Yes and yes.

Landsharkgun ,

You do not need a high IQ to experience gender dysphoria. There are huge piles of evidence showing that children that young can, in fact, have a gender identity. Actually, significantly younger than 8. You are woefully ignorant of the fundamentals of the topic being discussed.

mellowheat , (edited )

Saying that 8 year old has an IQ of 20 displays a misunderstanding of IQ and intelligence, but otherwise it’s indeed very probable that the girl(?) is very confused.

I thought this article describes the still ongoing problem pretty well: npr.org/…/two-families-grapple-with-sons-gender-p…

Zucker has come to believe that taking the view that kids are born transgender ultimately produces more transgender people.

“By declaring the child as transgendered at, say, age 3 or age 4 or age 6, and then saying in a sense, ‘Go with the flow,’ … that will impact, I believe, on how the kid’s gender identity differentiates,” he says.

The article was from 2008. Recent data shows that he was right on the money.

slappy ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    mellowheat ,

    Recent data shows a sharp rise (at least double the amount since 2017) in children identifying as trans. But I believe it’s still controversial as to why this happened.

    captain_oni ,

    The same reason there was data more showing people identifying as left-handed once it stopped being taboo and “something to get corrected”.

    But I guess you think left-handed people brainwashed our youth as well.

    mellowheat ,

    Yes, I know that that is one of the possible explanations of this controversy. But just because you have one explanation, and you think strongly that it’s the correct one, doesn’t mean it’s not controversial.

    But I guess you think left-handed people brainwashed our youth as well.

    “But I guess you think” never ends up in a happy place.

    captain_oni ,

    Yeah, sorry, that’s why I edited my original comment. Was very unfair of me to put words in your mouth (or I guess “fingers” in this case).

    Most likely just a gut reaction from all the people I see trying to argue a variation on the “we didn’t have so many trans people before this, so something must be turning people trans” idea. Since most people just argue in bad faith, and are not actually looking for an answer.

    (Actually I edited 3 times because of grammar, my brain was just not cooperating when it comes to typing).

    slappy ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    mellowheat ,

    Yep. I think it’s fascinating how this can be a generational phenomenon when I believe the understanding is that you get your sexual and gender identities more or less at birth. I mean if the liberalization of attitudes is the reason why more people identify as LGBT, shouldn’t that affect the older generations as well?

    I think the truth and sort of a non-answer is that the brain is a very complicated organ and everything affects it.

    kilgore_trout ,

    That “previous understanding” is still correct, despite new desires to feel special.

    Sexual orientation is defined up to the first two months after birth, and homosexual population in humans is around 5-10%.

    SuddenlyMelissa ,

    I’m 40, I have know I’m trans my whole life. I have been to afraid to cone out and face that because of people with your false beliefs. I have struggled immensely in life for 35 years because I didn’t feel it was safe to talk about or explore. I’ve decided it’s finally time to take my life back.

    You do not know what you are talking about, at all. Stop assuming you do, and start learning.

    mellowheat , (edited )

    I’m 40, I have know I’m trans my whole life. I have been to afraid to cone out and face that because of people with your false beliefs.

    Please explain what in my comments in this thread is a false belief that would make you be afraid to come out.

    You do not know what you are talking about, at all. Stop assuming you do, and start learning.

    I suggest you stop assuming things about people you don’t know as well. It only generates ill will and really nothing positive. Besides upvotes in this place, I guess.

    HawlSera ,

    That’s not how IQ works

    BorgDrone ,

    Someone here has an IQ of 20, but it’s not that kid.

    crackajack ,

    I don’t know the full story of the kid’s family, but some people already realise their sexuality at early age.

    Vytle ,

    Jesus christ that headline is the most satirical sounding headline ive ever seen period. It spunds more satirical than actual TheOnion h eadlines

    maness300 ,

    There’s always someone…

    108 ,

    So brave

    _sideffect ,

    At 8 years old… Does she actually know if she’s trans or did the mother tell her she was?

    ThatFembyWho , (edited )

    full disclosure: I’m trans - my story at the end.

    It doesn’t really work that way… if she was told “you’re trans” and wasn’t, she would experience the opposite type of gender dysphoria over time and would want to express masculine/boy identity in line with her birth gender and physical traits.

    She’s young enough that it’s not infeasible she might change her mind. Ideally she has been to a licensed therapist and/or psychologist who verified she met the latest DSM diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria (the only successful treatment for which involves transition), and they are helping the parent manage this process. They’ll be in no hurry for medical intervention since puberty would be 4-5 years away most likely.

    That being said, if you meet enough trans people, it’s not uncommon to hear stories about “knowing since I was 4”. Oftentimes it’s accompanied by a regret that their feelings were suppressed and they had to go through the torments of puberty “in the wrong body” as it were.

    My own story is different. I didn’t “know” until my thirties, even if I can see signs going back to childhood in retrospect. Apparently at three years old I told my mom “I’m a butterfly and I’m going to be a girl”. She never told me that, I found out after she died last year, looking through her old notes. She assumed I meant reincarnation. Ironic considering I have adopted a butterfly metaphor to express my transition to a woman.

    Anyway, yes, an eight year old can absolutely tell adults they are a different gender than they were assigned at birth. Whether they literally say “I’m trans” is kinda beside the point.

    _sideffect ,

    Thank you for explaining things without jumping down my neck right off the bat; it’s very appreciated (and hard to come by nowadays).

    I guess because I personally never thought of those things as a kid that I can’t picture an 8, (or 4) year old, that would worry (or even think) about that issue at such a young age.

    It’s why people argue too much over religion, and personal experiences; just because it didn’t happen to you, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    ThatFembyWho ,

    Oh hey, I have also met many cisgender folks like yourself. And yes, you have literally no reason to think about gender, because it aligns with your body, your hormones, and your life experience. It “just fits”. If you can imagine, that sensation is exactly how it feels for me to be transitioning now – a welcome change from despair :)

    _sideffect ,

    That’s great to hear; I’m glad you finally feel like you belong in your own body and can live a happier life :)

    TJDetweiler ,

    Thanks for the candid response. I appreciate the honest discussion.

    mellowheat , (edited )

    Anyway, yes, an eight year old can absolutely tell adults they are a different gender than they were assigned at birth. Whether they literally say “I’m trans” is kinda beside the point.

    I think the mistake parents might make is take this super seriously and start hovering on the issue (either validating or opposing), instead of letting the children grow naturally.

    ThatFembyWho ,

    Well, it doesn’t take long before a child needs to use a multi-occupant bathroom… so which do you suggest the child in the story to use? Or they participate in some other gender-segregated activity, like sports. A choice has to be made.

    Little Bobby says he is a boy, but the school won’t let him in the boy’s bathroom. Little Alice says she’s a girl, but she isn’t allowed to join the girl’s soccer team.

    You see it’s not really possible to grow naturally when half of US states try to dictate which bathroom a child uses based on psuedoscience and definitions that erase gender completely.

    But yes, of course, unrelated to the story there are many mistakes a parent could make. Honestly though if I have a child, and the state decides to bully my child for political-religious agendas, yeah that’s a hill I’m going to die on

    kescusay ,
    @kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

    This reads as transphobic, but I’m going to leave it up for two reasons:

    • First, your subsequent comments don’t show any malice, just a lack of understanding.
    • Second, that lack of understanding appears to have been rectified by others’ comments, and I think seeing that could be valuable for onlookers.

    I’m not trans myself, but my son is, and he explains how he felt something like this…

    Imagine you’re a pretty average boy, and interested in stereotypical boy things. You like boy clothes, you want to hang out with your friends who are boys, you look forward to growing muscles and a mustache when you’re old enough, etc.

    Now imagine that at the same time, all your clothes are girl clothes, your name is girly, and everyone around you thinks you’re a girl.

    That wouldn’t match up, would it. It would feel incongruous and wrong.

    If you’re cisgender, you can absolutely prove you’re a boy to everyone’s satisfaction, and you’re unlikely to get dressed in the wrong clothes or given a mismatched name in the first place. So you probably don’t ever have to think about your gender and whether it’s being expressed by your body incorrectly.

    But for trans people, it’s not uncommon for them to become acutely aware of gender when they’re young in ways that their cisgender counterparts don’t, precisely because of the mismatch.

    That’s how it was for my son. He didn’t figure out he was trans until he was around thirteen, but he knew something wasn’t right long before then.

    HowManyNimons ,

    “You’re attacking meeeee”

    It’s never not projection with these doofs.

    WaxedWookie ,

    In response to an 8 year old existing.

    Given his fragility, cowardice, lack of self-assurance and failure to defend himself - all feminine traits (to these ghouls anyway) are we sure the good senator isn’t trans himself? He’s certainly not the picture of brave, confident masculinity.

    DeSantis wears high heels - I’m pretty sure Trump does too (though smaller) - projection indeed.

    PeckerBrown ,

    Aleix is trans, but Summers is a pussy…does that mean that he’s transitioning, as well?

    Mycatiskai ,

    He is no pussy, they take a pounding while providing pleasure to all involved.

    Summers is a scrotum, thin skinned, can’t take even a light strike without assuming an attack, and he shriveled away when he realized the temperature was a bit cold to him.

    VaultBoyNewVegas ,

    Some people do enjoy some CBT though. He’s scum.

    TheLowestStone ,
    @TheLowestStone@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m going to have to remember this.

    profdc9 ,

    If Summers was really serious about “protecting” trans children, he should have said he was going to place the child into state custody. If there was an actual threat against the child, that’s what he should do, but there is not and Summers knows it.

    otp ,

    When asked if he would make her go to a boy’s bathroom, he then allegedly backed away, saying, “You’re attacking me,” turned around, and walked off quickly.

    LMAO

    Is he a moron, or is that a strategy? Lol

    CeruleanRuin ,
    @CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world avatar

    He’s a coward, just like everyone else in his party. Afraid of a fucking child. His ancestors would be ashamed of him, and his descendants will disown him.

    aStonedSanta ,

    This is what facism looks like imo. Through and through.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    “Will your bill do what it says?”

    “HOW DARE YOU!”

    And this is a legislator.

    Anamnesis ,

    Remember those pics of Goebbels, one before learning the photographer was Jewish, and one after?

    A_Random_Idiot ,

    Thats exactly what popped into my brain while reading this.

    attached for reference.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e613ec19-15b3-4b55-8f2d-d0d8058449b7.jpeg

    acetanilide ,

    Here’s a before pic https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f89120f2-c41f-47ee-8376-32aa47688186.jpeg

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Christianity really messes people up.

    gardylou ,

    Christianity Fascism really messes people up.

    They aren’t interchangeable.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    The Bible is very clear. Christianity is fundamentally anti-LGBT. Stop following it if you want to be a good person.

    CobblerScholar ,

    I’m not going to argue the point that homosexuality and at least the modern interpretation of the Christian faith are adversarial at best but the Bible is anything but clear on anything let alone LGBTQ. You quoted one of dozens of different English translations let alone any other language. Hell in one of the most popular translations, the King James Bible, the man had the word “tyrant” removed from it so the peasants wouldn’t get ideas

    cheese_greater ,

    What is the field or area of inquiry that focuses on in inconsistencies like that? What is him removing the word tyrant reprrsentative of in terms of a field that exists to root out that kinda bullshit?

    Like biblical scholasticism or like what focuses on examining the original language primary text and comparing the authenticity/integrity of the translated comparison target?

    David_Eight ,

    I don’t think the Bible was even written down or at least there aren’t any surviving copies from that time. This seems to be the oldest copy of the Bible, it’s in Greek and from the fourth century. So it’s already been translated and it’s from at least 300 years after Jesus died. So we’ll never really know what “the original Bible” said.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Textual analysis is the blanket term. There isn’t really primary text, there are a bunch of slightly different ones that get combined together. What’s more the process seems to have started way in the beginning. The first gospel shows signs of being multiple texts/traditions that were combined.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Completely disagree. The Bible is clear on almost nothing except the LGBT. All the games of translations won’t change the repeated commandments of the OT against the LGBT, the endorsement of the rules of Moses by Jesus, the repeated and clear statements by Paul, the +20 centuries of understanding of the meaning of those OT passages, or how Christianity has traditionally understood them.

    Yeah I quoted KJV. So what? Here is as many translations as you want

    biblehub.com/romans/1-26.htm

    Stop apologizing for the text, you know what it says. You know why Sodom was destroyed, you know why Jonathan’s “friend” was described as such, you know what Elijiah said about the destruction of Sodom, you know what Leviticus says twice about consensual LGBT relationships, you know what Deuteronomy says about the trans and what Leviticus says, you know what Paul said twice, you know what famous commentary writers like Philo said, and you know that Jesus consistently supported the sexual norms of his culture and argued they didn’t go far enough.

    I did the same thing you did when I was finding my way out of religion. “It wasn’t really slavery”, “it wasn’t really genocide”, “it wasn’t really anti-gay”,… I didn’t want to believe what was right on the page. The Abrahamic religions have been clear and are still clear to this day about what their texts say. They are irredeemably hateful.

    CobblerScholar ,

    You misunderstand. I think the Bible in any form we can understand it in today is utterly meaningless and is impossible to apply practically to any situation regardless of context. It can’t be used by bigots to justify their hatred of any given minority and it can’t be used to globally define the Christian ethos.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    But it is used. This is not on me. They are the ones dragging this book into our time. All I am doing is pointing out what the book actually says.

    Sure you can make the argument that the Bible is a product of Christianity and not a blueprint for it. Hence the text does not have to be followed and you can still be a Christian. Now who is making that argument? I certainly have never heard anyone who identified as a Christian make it. The very closest are the Catholics who at least are willing to admit the text isn’t perfect which is really not in the same ballpark.

    Live by the sword die by the sword right? Ok well they have made their religion about their book. I didn’t tell them to do that, they choose that. So turns out the book is shit. What does that make their religion?

    tehlaughing1 ,

    Christ never knew you.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Given that he never existed I am positive of that. At most he could only “know” me in the sense the Easter Bunny could. You know, not at all.

    Now instead of talking about me why don’t you address what I said? Might be more fruitful

    tehlaughing1 ,

    I think I responded to the wrong poster. I meant to say that to the person saying (falsely) that the Bible condemns queerness.

    Have they never heard of David and Johnathan? Does Jesus taking twelve men and washing their feet mean nothing? Was John not the Beloved disciple?

    I am a queer Catholic, and it deeply angers me when people believe that the two are mutually exclusive. The current wave of LGBT hatred (in the USA, at least) started with the Evangelical church in the 1940’s. It is not some ancient and infallible dogma.

    Forgive me for causing you anger, I spoke only to gently admonish and correct the sinner.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    The Bible does condemn being LGBT.

    Have they never heard of David and Johnathan?

    Sure and why doesn’t the Bible say explicitly what their relationship was?

    Does Jesus taking twelve men and washing their feet mean nothing?

    Means nothing. Clearly a call back to the references in the OT of the same act.

    Was John not the Beloved disciple?

    And?

    The current wave of LGBT hatred (in the USA, at least) started with the Evangelical church in the 1940’s. It is not some ancient and infallible dogma.

    The Catholic Church had literal torture devices specifically for male homosexuals.

    I think if you scroll up you will see a decent breakdown of all the references to homosexuality in the Bible, but if you want you can just look at what Paul said twice.

    Forgive me for causing you anger, I spoke only to gently admonish and correct the sinner.

    No worries. Save you some time I have been an open atheist since 2018.

    tehlaughing1 ,

    Hatred begets hatred.

    I spoke to inform both the believer and the non-believer.

    There are Christians in this world who have taken Christ’s words to heart and strive to live in His image daily. This way of living inevitably leads to compassion.

    There is the Church of Peter, and the Church of John.

    The Church of Peter is the Earthly institution that instructs the faithful and leads to a life filled with Love.

    The Church of John is the Church of the Beloved disciple who put his head on Christ’s chest and listened to the heartbeat of the One who Created Love.

    These two Churches are present in all people, at all times, throughout history. They shall never fail, as long as there is suffering in the world. This is why the faithful call them eternal.

    When these two Churches are in harmony in the soul of the individual, and in the soul of the World, there is harmony. When they are in disharmony in the soul of the individual and the soul of the world, there is chaos.

    Christ has Illuminated the soul of this individual, and there is only harmony.

    This harmony is available to all, whether Jew or Greek, male or female, believer or non-believer.

    Forgive me for being unclear in my communication, and I pray your soul knows this peace.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Right lot of assertions here without a lot of evidence to back any of it up.

    As I pointed out the text is clearly anti-LGBT and the historical application is as well. Sure if you pick and choose verses you can get different results, that doesn’t mean the other verses aren’t there. It just means that you went about it buffet style.

    Big part of the reason why I left. Got tired of defending the Bible.

    tehlaughing1 ,

    The scripture is a perfect mirror of the human heart.

    One with a heart in alignment with God will use the scripture for goodness. One with a heart out of alignment with God will use the scripture for evil.

    It was written by mortals, who are intrinsically flawed. The message it strives to convey is absolute and incorruptible.

    Errors in scripture are inevitable, the Bible is a literary device, but the essence of the teaching is incorruptible.

    All humans strive for perfection, but the concept of perfection is illusory. Anything truly perfect is inconceivable to the limited human mind.

    The history of those that have used the scripture for evil is long. The history of those who have used the scripture for good is equally long.

    Christ commanded us to love one another, do we not fulfill the commandment when we are in love?

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Gotcha so the text is anti-LGBT. Which is my point. It is not a matter of perspective, it is what it literally says.

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    Ah you’re tangling with this guy. I wouldn’t worry about him. He’s very angry and set in his ways. You can argue until he has nothing left, he just wants to pass his pain along wholesale. Stay safe my friend.

    lambalicious ,

    The Bible is very clear

    Yeah I’m always reminded of this piece www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CPjWd4MUXs .

    Flumpkin ,

    One of my favorite fantasy shows 🙂

    CileTheSane ,
    @CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

    Sounds to me that the passage is saying “God made people gay”.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Well I don’t see that but it really doesn’t matter. “and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.”

    Paul wasn’t a top thinker. Even when it seems to occur to him that if God is the architect of all things no one can be punished for doing the wrong thing he just invokes the devilish forces (that God allows to operate) to step in. His conception of free will and judgement are not complicated they just aren’t thought out very well.

    CeruleanRuin ,
    @CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world avatar

    Organized religion is one of fascism’s most important tools.

    MojoMcJojo ,

    I agree with you that they are not interchangeable. A large swath of Christians are appalled by fascism.

    But, they have historically used each other for their own means, and that can be difficult to ignore. I think once again people are seeing the two get back together, and we all know how that relationship turns out.

    wildginger ,

    Theyre pretty fuckin interchangable

    The_Lopen ,

    Ah yes, I’m sure Kim Jong Un attends his local Baptist Church every Sunday like a good fascist.

    kilgore_trout ,

    All of you misuse words.

    Zirconium ,

    Sounds like two neurons in his brain actually met for once and he felt empathy for someone he knew he was too young to understand why she’s getting fucked over by her government.

    Deceptichum ,
    @Deceptichum@kbin.social avatar

    It doesn't sound like that at all, at any point in the story?

    Sounds like he he thought he could score a quick lil' political win with the group of families, before realising she was the target his hate, and expressing his bigotry to the child before fucking off.

    nomous ,

    “You’re attacking me!” complains attacker.

    Zirconium ,

    Well I meant to say but forgot. That the empathy he felt turned into confusion and then anger and then he rubber banded back to his bigotry where he feels safe

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    I disagree. He saw the danger of him standing there when someone could take a pic. That is why he bravely screamed out at the 8 year old girl to stop attacking him.

    CeruleanRuin ,
    @CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world avatar

    He felt empathy for the first time, and it was an unfamiliar sensation that he recoiled from in his cowardice.

    jj4211 ,

    Nah, it wasn’t empathy, it was a photo-op. He could be seen “caring” about the plight of kids who feel unsafe in school (his assumption was almost certainly school shooting). So he was there to vaguely promise to make schools safer, presumably by having fewer doors, since that is what causes school shootings evidently.

    AnActOfCreation ,
    @AnActOfCreation@programming.dev avatar

    I think it’s the opposite. I think he saw her as a girl whom he was protecting from trans girls using “her” bathroom.

    feedum_sneedson ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Darkblue ,

    Nice choice of the word/idiom cudgel, since a cudgel is a small (child?) version of a weapon.

    feedum_sneedson ,

    It’s a good word, isn’t it. I’m not saying the politician is in the right here, I just don’t like parents using their children in this kind of way. I feel the same about child actors, really.

    kofe ,

    Are you 100% devoted to the mentality that she’s being used or is there evidence you’d accept to demonstrate she wants and deserves to be involved? I’m personally on the fence given limited information, but I lean toward trusting and respecting the parents, as I had political opinions that went against my parents at that age and had no one to help advocate for me.

    feedum_sneedson ,

    No, I’m not really that devoted to anything.

    platypus_plumba ,

    Didn’t read the article but I agree. A kid thst age shouldn’t have a defined gender or sexuality.

    My niece seemed to be lesbian for some years, and we were ok with it. She recently said she actually likes boys.

    Nobody pushed her to do anything or say anything, or represent any political group or social cause. She chose by herself 100% of the time. Nobody guided her or said anything to her. Her mother just listened and said “whatever makes you happy”.

    I can’t believe this woman is involving her child in politics like this.

    tryptaminev ,

    The difference here is that children often lack a concept of sexuality, because they don’t feel sexual attraction yet. That liking someone or being attracted to someone is two different things, is something children usually learn in puberty.

    But children very well understand, the social constructs we create for boys and girls, and can express whether they feel that fitting them or not.

    Finally you said:

    A kid thst age shouldn’t have a defined gender or sexuality.

    This is exactly what the issue is about. Let the children use the bathroom they feel most comfortable with and not impose a gender and sexuality on them.

    feedum_sneedson ,

    Whether or not you fit the social construct doesn’t determine whether you’re male or female. You’re putting the cart so far in front of the horse it’s about to lap it.

    otp ,

    But the bathrooms are not “male bathrooms” and “female bathrooms”. They’re “Men’s” and “Women’s” washrooms. Which are determined by the social construct.

    feedum_sneedson ,

    Toilet Wars

    echodot ,

    I’m glad you feel comfortable with agreeing with no information. That shows real courage that does.

    mriormro ,
    @mriormro@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

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    platypus_plumba ,

    deleted_by_moderator

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    braxy29 ,

    i mean, it’s cool that your family supported your niece by giving her time and avoiding assumptions, but that doesn’t mean that children never have a sense of their gender or preferences, never have political opinions, or aren’t affected by politics.

    look at Greta Thunberg.

    if your niece had wanted to advocate for herself in a political way, how do you imagine your family would have responded? would you have been supportive?

    platypus_plumba ,

    If she has the initiative, sure. In this case it was the mother who chose to take her kids there to say to everyone “Hey look, my kids are Trans, look at them”.

    Just let them grow and label themselves. At that age these things are not written in stone.

    braxy29 ,

    fair enough. i appreciate your response! i think i had misunderstood your meaning.

    Holyginz ,

    If you didn’t read the article your comment is worthless and contributes nothing.

    platypus_plumba ,

    I didn’t have to read the article to see that this mother told her kids what to do and how to feel.

    Holyginz ,

    And that’s why your opinion is merit less.

    platypus_plumba ,

    So her kids read the news and said “mother, we need to act, take me there so we can teach this politician a lesson”?

    CeruleanRuin ,
    @CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world avatar

    Those “politics” this woman is “involving her child” in are actively seeking to harm her child. The child is fully involved already even if she was left at home, because the GOP can’t keep themselves out of children’s pants.

    platypus_plumba , (edited )

    Just because you’re using the same word (involve) it doesn’t mean it has the same semantics.

    She is exposing and labeling her children herself. She’s probably telling her kids what to feel and what they are. At that age a kid isn’t like “Mother I have become transexual, we need to fight the Republicans, bring me to the nearest politician”.

    Don’t get your kid involved in politics, don’t tell your kids they are transgender, don’t you dare giving them surgery for their gender… let them grow and figure it out themselves. Just be supportive and loving. You can fight for them, but don’t get them involved in something that isn’t necessarily permanent to them.

    Schmoo ,

    That’s a lot of assumptions you’ve just made about this random mother and child you know nothing about.

    platypus_plumba ,

    It’s a kid. Do you think a kid knows what transexual means without an adult telling them? Or what a politician or laws mean? Or that the politician was going to be there? Did the kid tell the mother what to say?

    Please explain to me how this could have happened, a likely scenario, in which the mother didn’t push this on the child.

    Schmoo ,

    You wouldn’t know what transexual means if you hadn’t been told or read or heard about it somewhere. That is as true of adults as it is of children. What you seem to be implying is that a child could not possibly understand the concept, and that is where we clearly disagree.

    You don’t give children enough credit. Children are capable of understanding how they are different from others, even if they don’t have the words to describe it. They can understand that there are people with authority who make the rules, even if they don’t know the details. They are able to recognize when things are unfair and feel indignant about it, even if they’re unsure of why or how.

    The mother can give her child the words to describe how they feel, the details of the world we live in, explain the whys and hows of it, and the child is capable of comparing that to what they know and thinking for themselves. Children are impressionable because of their lack of prior knowledge with which to make that comparison, but that does not mean they lack agency.

    It is certainly possible that this mother manipulated her child, put words in her mouth, shielded her from information that could provide a basis for comparison, but that is an assumption for which you have no evidence except that you can’t imagine the alternative.

    The alternative being that this mother raised her child lovingly, taught them all they could, trusted them with information from other sources, trusted them to make their own judgements with their guidance, and supported them when they came to their own conclusions.

    platypus_plumba ,

    So, the kid read the newspaper and asked to go there?

    Schmoo ,

    Don’t know and it doesn’t matter. The point is the kid, if informed properly and given the choice to go or not to go, is capable of making that choice.

    CeruleanRuin ,
    @CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world avatar

    Kids know what they are.

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    An anecdote of any specific individual is really not particularly helpful. Some kids very solidly identify and some do not. Externally it’s sometimes ambiguous but also sometimes it can be incredibly obvious you aren’t dealing with just a temporary exploration.

    A lot of trans parents of those who are very solidly trans generally have their proof in certain ways. If trying a different gender presentation suddenly stops a child from being painfully shy, fidgeting and having emotion regulation problems… Often that’s your clue that it’s a need not a want.

    I can also understand the parent’s desire to put a human face on the issue. Very often trans issues are talked about in the abstract or treated like a political token to be traded. The human cost is hidden from veiw. It can be overall a very dehumanizing experience. I have reached out to transphobes who just never met one of us before and while some of them have settled on a very misguided “Well you’re just one of the good ones… Not the bad evil slutty bad ones” you can tell that at least there’s at least a crack in their armor through which the idea of human empathy can reach.

    platypus_plumba , (edited )

    Yeha, but how do you know if it is something permanent or not for the kid? You don’t know, at that age they are fluid in these regards. So why frame them as “transexual” if they like having long hair or play with “girly” toys.

    When I was a kid I thought I was a girl, I would always refer to myself with femenine terminology until I was like 7. If my parents pushed the idea of being transexual instead of letting me figure out that I was actually a boy who likes girls, I’d probably be very fucked up today.

    I’m really against telling a kid what they are or allowing them to change their bodies permanently. Once they turn 18, they’ll be able to make these choices with a better understanding and perspective. A 10yo kid doesn’t know shit, they barely understand the world (in general), that’s why they can’t make choices like having sex with adults, getting pregnant, having tattoos, consuming drugs or alcohol, gambling… the list goes on. They aren’t mentally prepared for these decisions.

    I understand that it is important to preach love to others, but don’t solidify these ideas in your kids just to make a political point. They may feel later that they can’t change because they became the face of this issue.

    Don’t tell a kid what they are, just tell them they can be whatever they want to be, but permanent choices only at 18, once they have more perspective and understanding. That’s it.

    Drivebyhaiku , (edited )

    First off nomenclature “Trans sexual” is pretty outdated terminology that no longer is used in the DSM for kind of good reasons.

    Also generally speaking gender presentation is independent of actual gender. It’s a common mistake made but what toys kids play with and how they like to dress has very little to do with identity and is only at best tangentially related. The idea that “Little Timmy likes Barbies get him to a gender clinic” is going to actually render anything other than a “some kids like Barbies” response is just anti trans hysteria.

    Gender questioning is a known phase of development that may or may not stick particularly at a young age like seven. Heck gender questioning is something anyone can go through at any point in one’s life and you may come out of it realizing that nope, you are actually cis. Inside the trans community we advocate for adults a good experimental phase by degrees and not to look at medical transition as the first potential solution until you feel solid in knowing yourself better.

    For a kid a regular questioning period is around a few months to a year long. If they basically are consistent by the end of that year the evidence is that there’s roughly a 95% chance that will be consistent over the next 5 years… With a little wobbling between binary and non-binary trans identities to be accounted forhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/…/PMC9936352/#:~:…. With trans people in general there’s usually something seemingly unrelated that gets fixed by a successful social transition. Anxiety and depression can sometimes have physical symptoms. In trans accepting environments Social transition can target the root causes of stress so usually you can physically recognize the difference in someone suddenly flourishing…

    Also 10 year olds do not make permanent body changes. If you are taking puberty blockers at age 10 the chances are better that you are doing so because you are experiencing precocious puberty. In Canada where I am treatment options for trans kids are limited to blockers so they can basically watch the kid. If you have a child who has a consistent identity over a span of years then they might recommend horomone treatments at age 16 to go through a puberty. This is done only with parental consent but requires a team including a social worker, psychiatrist/psychologist and endocrinologist and a pediatrician who basically have monitored the kid for several years. The first surgeries aren’t available until legal adulthood at 18. There are no “children of 10 making unilateral decisions to change their bodies”- its a child of 16 and a panel of about 6 adults (assuming two legal guardians) doing a risk assessment and long term life planning that can be vetoed by any participant at any time.

    Even when the door is open for medical help for trans kids it’s still stacked against trans kids transitioning. Kids in the system have to stick to their guns against a lot of forces that look at them as a legal risk for suing the system for any permanent damages. It’s less risky for institutions generally to just not intervene in natural puberty so they set a very high burden of proof to be absolutely sure beyond all reasonable shadow of a doubt that the kid is gunna be fine. If you hear anyone talking about it being as easy as just scheduling an appointment quite frankly they are full of shit.

    platypus_plumba ,

    For me the problem is that parents can sabotage their questioning period by steering them. Just let them be. For me, this mother taking her kids to something political like this is steering and not letting the kid figure things out themselves.

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    I mean… Is it though? The kid and others like her regardless of how she might identify in the future is going to be impacted from kindergarten onwards by the laws being voted on. She may have just been there to speak with someone representing her and her parents fight with words of encouragement. It sounds from the article like Republican representive just approached these two just sort of assuming she was a cis kid being brought in as part of the “parental rights” crowd and he initiated the encounter blindly not finding the presense of a cis child in chambers particularly unusual.

    I actually tend to see a lot of youngsters given anti trans signs to shake that they are probably too young to understand and probably enforce a lot more restrictions on how free that child feels to be themselves than any politically active trans parent fighting to not have to pick up their lives and retreat like a refugee to a non-hostile state where they have to build their support networks again from scratch.

    There are very real stakes in this fight for families.

    platypus_plumba ,

    Stakes are real, but still, don’t use children for politics.

    People understand what a kid is without having to expose them to the world as trans at such a young age.

    Did they really change this politician’s mind?

    Drivebyhaiku , (edited )

    “Expose them to the world as trans”? I don’t know if their intention was to make the news but the article doesn’t frame this as a carefully constructed political stunt. They weren’t exactly storming the chambers their parents could have been there to speak on their behalf and just couldn’t leave the kid with a sitter for all we know. They were also waiting in line to speak to a Democratic senator… Probably for a heartfelt thank you. This confrontation seems entirely accidental.

    Also… Why would there be any particular change to this kid’s gender journey just because this happened? This idea that we should be cloistered away where hopefully we will revert to a cis identity because we are just being influenced astray somehow is still assuming that being trans is somehow a failure state. You seem to believe some perceived pressure will cause them to somehow double down on their convictions to fight the tide as a targeted minority and is going to damage the child… Bit Gender doesn’t work like that. We don’t pretend to our genders solely due to spite. We don’t do what we do to strictly perform for other people’s benefit. Most of us know exactly what that is like and it is quite frankly fucking exhausting and untenable on any long term. Kids know they can detransition at any point because even if their parents are accepting they all have contact with adults who keep trying to “correct” them and they know that being openly trans isn’t going to be a cakewalk. I know trans kids who are 4 years old that already intimately understand these concepts.

    The reaction of the politician definitely did not show any potential for him to change his mind. That he felt attacked by them just saying “My kid is trans and we’re not here to support you” is telling about how people like this react to trans people but we pretty much know they are hypocrites. This one just didn’t have a canned response ready to save face. This isn’t really news, it’s just a more bald faced transphobic reaction than usual.

    jj4211 ,

    But it is helpful, as sometimes the pressure on someone who has “come out” is immense the other way. That if they back away from the controversial identity they declared, then they rose a fuss over nothing. It should be emphasized that people can be flexible with core pieces of their identity. Also, in my opinion, that they don’t need to pick just one or the other because of some select preferences they have that are incongruous with one choice or the other.

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    It’s definitely a case inside the trans community that we recognize there is a lot of external pressure from the general atmosphere of doubt regarding trans peoples convictions that incentivizes people to stick to their guns.

    But that pressure ultimately doesn’t come from inside, that is a force exerted from outside. “Being bad for the movement” internal policing is a fear reaction born out of being under someone else’s heel and trying to do what you can to stop the boot coming down. Cis hegemony is lining up to use the case of detransitioners to limit everyone else’s medical and social options. Yes, there are some not particularly great trans people who look at detransitioners as essentially a threat to us all… but the general concensus of the community is that if our ethics become shit because outsider pressure destroys our culture by forcing us to eat our own then we have already failed.

    The end goal inside the trans community of folks is always comfort and happiness even if that means someone walks back out the door having come to the conclusion they aren’t trans. If we have a goal it is in part we want to lower the social cost of experimentation so that identity can be freely explored regardless of what identity you find. There isn’t a lot of harm in taking a year to understand yourself a bit better. Ideally there shouldn’t be any harm in taking a gender rumspringa and figuring out if maybe you’re a little bit non-binary or something. That is real freedom. It’s all the bloody idiots who don’t get the basics who make it about there being massive stakes and a bullet dodged because they only think in terms of medical transition.

    To our eyes it’s everybody else who wants to make doing that somehow “political”. It can’t just be about what makes us feel like we’re actually living at 100 percent because we have to fight tooth and nail just to exist.

    riodoro1 ,

    Using your 8 year old in any argument is awful, but here it is also stupid. The mother realizes that the child might still change her mind on this, right? Like it is not a for life decision she made at 8 years old.

    Doing what the mother is doing and making her into an activist might back her into a corner of being a girl if she might not want to in the future.

    tryptaminev ,

    How tf. is it making a child into an activist?

    “You have an issue you feel uncomfortable about, and feel your safety is threatened? let’s talk with a democratic representative, so they better understand you.” Is not “activism”. It is normal political process in a democracy and it should be endorsed, especially for children. They have rights too and they have opinions too and since they cannot voice their opinion in elections it is all the more important that they can be heard by politicians. And there the bar is also different. A child cannot be expected to form a conscise political argument, leave alone lobby for it, what would be activism. But children have legitimate concerns that need to be heard nonetheless.

    By this definition raising any issue with any politician is “activism”. Also who the fuck would deny a child to change its mind as it grows up?

    otp ,

    Look at it differently.

    Your child is trans.

    Two competing politicians have differing policies. One is against trans people, one supports trans people. Which politician would you be inclined to support?

    Would you discuss these issues with your child? If so, would you bring your child to meet the politician who is “fighting for her”?

    Zirconium ,

    Sounds like he was taking her daughter to the Democratic senator in support of him and the other senator happened to come by. Def not a cudgel

    CeruleanRuin ,
    @CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world avatar

    The kid’s future is at stake with the legislation these GOP phonies are constantly pushing to exclude and shame her. I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to loop her into the process of protesting and fighting back at a young age.

    What’s disgusting is when politicians use children in the abstract as fuel for their own campaigns, as the entire GOP is doing all the time. They prey on the ignorance of their base, and use anonymous people who can’t defend themselves as cudgels; that’s very different from what this parent is doing.

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