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bear ,

Many people believe that too much immigration causes the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group by means such as the disintegration of its political and social institutions, of its culture, language, national feelings, religion, and its economic existence.

Cryophilia OP ,

Ok, but how?

HKPiax ,
@HKPiax@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, people want to keep their customs and traditions, so immigrants will bring their own customs and traditions, and if you have lots of immigrants, their customs and traditions will become the main ones in that place.

Cryophilia OP ,

You’d need to bring in more immigrants than the current population, which I don’t think any country is anywhere close to.

HKPiax ,
@HKPiax@lemmy.world avatar

True that, but you see the effects locally. Also, you need an arguably small portion of the population being immigrants for them to become relevant in the society, no need to replace everyone. Relevant minorities get legislation protecting them and their traditions/beliefs.

HelixDab2 ,

Mostly to avoid having infrastructure and social safety networks overwhelmed. Yes, you will also see wages be depressed by large-scale immigration, but that’s something that could–in theory–be controlled by strengthening unions and labor regulations. That’s not where we are though; right now, unions and labor regulations are fairly weak, and are being gutted by courts even as the NLRB tries to strengthen them.

Housing takes time to build, and good city planning is necessary to ensure that cities are sustainable rather than being sprawls. (Not many cities do that, BTW; it’s usually, “oh, we’ll just add another lane to the existing 20 lane interstate”). Given that we’re currently in a situation where there’s insufficient low- and middle-income high density housing, and few companies are willing to build any more, competition for most of the immigrants that we’re seeing–people that are trying to get away from deep economic woes–would be fierce for housing.

Cryophilia OP ,

and few companies are willing to build any more

I don’t think this is actually true. At least in my area, developers would LOVE to build condos and apartments all over the place, but local laws are holding them back.

I suppose even in a perfectly willing area that upgrades its infrastructure to support more people, you don’t want to move people in too quickly, before that infrastructure is available. But it’s easy to see that become a self fulfilling prophecy: we don’t take immigrants because we don’t have the infrastructure, and we don’t build the infrastructure because there’s no demand for it.

small44 ,

They eat people pets \s

zipzoopaboop ,

Housing is already unsustainable, more people means more demand for it

Cryophilia OP ,

Very good point. Having a local government that is willing to allow more housing to be built is absolutely necessary if you want to let immigrants in.

superkret , (edited )

If you provide real social security for anyone in the country and don’t limit immigration at all, you attract people who aren’t willing or able to work and want to live off social security.

norimee ,

Poppycock.

It’s the same argument than if you provide social security people don’t want to work anymore. Its classist and racist.

Congrats. You hit two right wing propaganda points with one scentence.

Feel free to prove me wrong with reliable sources and real numbers.

RightHandOfIkaros ,

Regarding potential societal issues:

When multiple cultures mix together, one of two things can happen:

  1. The cultures mesh well and either coexist or mutually mix into something new
  2. The cultures do not mesh well and this leads to all sorts of problems, especially increased crime

The second usually happens when both cultures place opposite value in something. For example, one culture places a high value on self and the other places a high value on being in a group, this can lead to a divide between cultures. Eventually, the resentment each group has for each other will lead to violence and other sorts of crime. One culture may think “I made the money for myself,” while the other thinks ,“we should all share the money.” If people don’t learn how to get along, you can probably see how that would increase criminal activity. In most cases, it is usually the expectation that the immigrant adapt to the culture of the new place they have moved to, rather than the new place’s home residents being expected to adapt to every immigrants different country cultures.

It also isn’t good when immigrants enter a new country and do not know the laws of the country they have entered. They may commit crimes that could have been legal wherever they came from, but now someone may be a victim to a crime and the immigrant did not know. Now, usually immigrants that legally enter a country do learn about the basic laws of the country and the basic culture, but ones that enter a country illegally may know nothing about the place they are in. They may continue to act the same as they did in their previous home, which may have very different laws, leading to further divide.

Flax_vert , (edited )

Housing, job availability and potential erasure of culture. I think it depends on what migrants you let in though. Also some groups forming bubbles and refusing to integrate as well.

Personally though, I think kids watching american media on their mum’s ipads is a greater risk to our culture than Mohammed and his family down the street

Also, some immigrants are more racist than white people. Which is sometimes kind of funny. Although my white friend got beat up in Bradford, so sometimes it isn’t.

jeena ,
@jeena@piefed.jeena.net avatar

It depends a bit on how you define immigration. Is what the Spaniards and English did to the Americas immigration or something else?

If the influx of a different culture is so big that it displaces you and your children like it did to the Native Americans, then I understand that you'd want to stop it.

Cryophilia OP ,

Is what the Spaniards and English did to the Americas immigration

Uhh

No.

Weird place for your mind to even go.

pmk ,

What would you call it instead?

Cryophilia OP ,

Colonialism? Invasion?

pmk ,

I could be wrong, but to me those words describe the initial phase. Once established as a society, the rest involves people moving into this society, which I would call immigration.

Cryophilia OP ,

More Englishmen moving to the 13 colonies, I would call immigration. More Americans pushing into Native land is imo more accurately an invasion.

pmk ,

That’s how I think about it too. I guess the original description was a bit vague, what they did to the americas. It includes both. First invasion, then immigration.

jeena ,
@jeena@piefed.jeena.net avatar

The thing is, invasion without immigration following it might kill a lot of the original people but doesn't displace them as a whole.

Bigfish ,

There’s also the carrying capacity of the area they’re emigrating to. Housing in particular is one aspect of it that’s already very very tight in most of the Western world. Even without immigration per se, this problem plays out every time a major company moves headquarters to a new city/state. Lots of new people, and a very slow to respond housing stock means surging prices. Schools and other social services also get stretched - but they’re much quicker to respond to the demand.

Cryophilia OP ,

This might be me projecting, but I think lack of housing stock is driven by NIMBY policies intentionally restricting stock, and not by some unchangeable market force. It doesn’t have to be a limiting factor, at least not as much as at present.

eatthecake ,

When i was a kid even poor people had a 3 bedroom house on a quarter acre block. I know someone who rents the balcony of a 2 bedroom flat and shares with 7 other people., all of them are migrants or international students. Oddly enough, i live in a house that was built in a backyard. A cheap, crappy new investment property made to capitalise on the housing crisis. We’ve had more than two dozen tradesmen visit in a couple of years so i wonder how that investment’s working out. This is not progress.

taiyang ,

Historically, US actually was quite welcoming of immigration, including from Mexico. It tends to ebb and flow. I was taught by an economist that typically you open the flood gates when you want the labor, while restricting it when you don’t. To him, labor works just like goods in supply/demand curves. Flooding a market can drive down value of labor, etc., which can be bad for local workers. Obviously it’s a little more complex, but that’s the jist.

The trouble is, with globalization, one must wonder if that S/D curve is still valid. I imagine it is in some sectors, but in others, those jobs have been outsourced. If this is a bigger strain on demand, then it’s better to keep immigration on lock. That would at least help explain why it’s so hostile currently, but I’m just thinking out loud. I don’t necessarily agree with the economist approach.

Cryophilia OP ,

Flooding a market can drive down value of labor, etc., which can be bad for local workers.

That makes sense, but in the long run/bigger picture, having a bigger employable workforce results in more consumers, which means a growing economy.

I’m not well versed enough in macroeconomics to explain how to promote the economy without lowering wages, but surely it can be done. “They’re taking our jobs” just sounds way too reductive.

PlzGivHugs ,

Immigration in excess and esspecially in combination with exploititive or unenforced labour laws and mismanagement of other resources and infrastructure, can decrease wages, and cause shortage of key resources. For example, if there is no new housing being built, but there is very high immigration levels, housing prices will rise, and availability will be limited.

Cryophilia OP ,

Well sure, but then why not build more houses?

PlzGivHugs , (edited )

Usually because those responsible for regulating housing are heavily invested in it, and like the fact that high immigration is pushing prices up. In the case of more blatantly malicious governments, it can also be used to encourage divisionism, or to weaken the power of the working class. At best, its just because building housing (esspecially in more extreme climates) is slow and expensive. As usual, most things lead back to corrupt governments and capitalism.

Cryophilia OP ,

Fair point. I say “why not just build houses” as if it’s easy, but it’s really not. If I were King of America I could force simultaneous policy changes (more immigration + more housing) but that’s unlikely to happen in reality.

RightHandOfIkaros ,

It is probably impossible to happen because the United States does not have a king.

Cryophilia OP ,

Thanks for pointing that out

ackthxbye ,

Typically these quickly built housing is of such crappy quality that only immigrants will want to live there (because they can’t afford anything else anyway). This leads to the development of ghettos, with leads to the typical problems from crappy schools (that traps the kids in the lowest social class) to no cultural assimilation.

Cryophilia OP ,

So have and enforce building codes. Sounds like a simple problem with a simple solution.

ricdeh ,
@ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

If immigration leads to more unemployment, then that is an economic problem, especially in the hypothetical case where the social benefits system is getting more and more strained by an influx of unemployed people. But generally, I think that you can expect that the immigrants will soon find employment. Besides that, there’s the cultural aspect that @jet mentioned. You could also make the point that the country’s infrastructure is more and more stressed as the population grows, but that is fixable and potentially counteracted by the labour potential of the immigrants themselves (i.e., qualified immigrant work forces can make a large-scale infrastructure overhaul possible that will lead to greater national capacities and a net benefit for the entire population).

Aside from these things, I would argue that most of the other reasons boil down to xenophobia or racism.

Cryophilia OP ,

but that is fixable and potentially counteracted by the labour potential of the immigrants themselves

That’s how I would deal with immigration in my power fantasies. I’m sure in reality it’s much more complicated than that, but the basic idea of bringing in immigrants and using their labor to build more infrastructure (and paying them a fair wage for it) seems sound. Coupled with pro-housing policies and free education - not necessarily college but trade school and language classes.

chemical_cutthroat ,
@chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world avatar

Infrastructure is a large issue. Border towns can become saturated, which will reduce living conditions, and when immigrants move to larger cities, they can often have trouble finding places to live. A lot of this can be because of a communication barrier. Sometimes that is because there are too few to translate, but there can also be educational issues. As much maligned as the US education system is, it is better than some others, and when your culture eschews school for an early start at earning a paycheck, communication in any language becomes a challenge.

Many issues can be overcome, or at least minimized, by compassionate workers, which many that work with immigrants are, but there isn’t enough funding to get compassionate people where they are most needed. Supporting increased budgets at the border isn’t always about putting guns on the border, it can be about improving the infrastructure that helps get people where they need to be in more efficient ways. I’m starting to ramble, though, and I think I’ve given a partial answer to your question.

Keeponstalin ,

From an economical standpoint, immigrants bring in more taxes and labor, which can go towards infrastructure and social infrastructure like education and housing

chemical_cutthroat ,
@chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world avatar

Just gotta make sure those taxes are going to the right place.

xmunk ,

Immigration only really causes economic issues with bullshit employee specific visas like H1Bs - those visas trap immigrants in powerless positions where they’re unable to advocate for fair compensation and drive down overall wages.

Everything else is fucking bullshit xenophobia.

Cryophilia OP ,

Would more supply of workers (even naturalized ones) not drive down wages too?

xmunk ,

Eh, it doesn’t really seem like that tends to happen… economies are weird and if you keep adding people you tend to just get more and more service jobs.

howrar ,

Doesn’t sound that weird. More people means more people to serve, so more service jobs are needed.

obinice ,
@obinice@lemmy.world avatar

But where does the extra money and infrastructure come from to provide everything they need?

More people means more mouths to feed, more strain on the limited housing market driving prices and inaccessibility up, more capacity required at hospitals, doctor’s surgeries, schools, all public services (meaning everything from more doctors, nurses, consumables, locations, etc needed), and so on.

Where does the money come from to provide for the net influx of 500,000+~ people a year, a population increase of some 0.75%?

I’m not against immigration, welcoming people from other cultures with fresh ideas and outlooks on life is great and I love it, but the strain it places immediately on our already failing societal systems, such as healthcare, education, housing availability, job availability, etc, is very real, and needs to be addressed.

Cryophilia OP ,

more capacity required at hospitals, doctor’s surgeries, schools, all public services (meaning everything from more doctors, nurses, consumables, locations, etc needed)

So, skilled, high paying jobs? More architects, more plumbers, more software developers, more of all kinds of jobs

Acamon ,

An increase in supply would reduce wages, unless it also increases demand. If you think about wages in cities vs rural areas, you’ll see that most of the time more people = more economic activity = higher wages.

Where this breaks down, is if there’s barriers of entry that prevent immigrants from participating in the economy fully. If immigrants aren’t allowed to legally work or start business (as happens with some asylum seekers or ‘illegal’ immigrants) then they are forced to compete over a small pool of off-book / cash-in-hand jobs, which could see a reduction in wages without a significant increase in overall economic activity.

Cryophilia OP ,

Sounds like an argument for amnesty for illegals honestly. And more relaxed legal immigration pathways.

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