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ASDraptor ,

Hard to say what would have been better.

There’s no doubt removing a Hitler from the US elections would benefit everyone.

But given how dangerous his cult is, can you say without a doubt they would stay calm and just accept their leader got killed? And, above all, that the one coming to take his place would be a less fascist person?

Evotech ,

There level of martyrdom would be insane

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

They’re already delusional and obsessed about their new prophet, what difference would it make.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

Most likely they would take significant action. There’d be a lot of terrorism.

Though, probably not much more than if he loses.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

You’d think that but significant action required significant coordination. Coordinating these people without their guru would be like herding cats. Possibly, the leaders and influencers would tear each other apart, leading to mixed messaging, leading to apathy in the ranks.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

ion required significant coordination. Coordinating these people without their guru would be like herding cats. P

You mean like the attempted coup?

Or like the guys that were hitting substations?

Or like the guys driving through peaceful marches?

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

The attempted coup made sense because they were united under their leader. Even then, while it was shocking, it didn’t accomplish any of their immediate goals. Without Trump, my guess is the high level individuals that effectively coordinated it would be too busy fighting each other to accomplish anything significant.

The other examples are individuals committing criminal acts, not significant actions. Maybe you’d see a flare up of those, but probably not that much as crazy individualists get bored quick.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

I disagree with “significant action required significant coordination.”

One person can take significant action, as we saw in the news the other day.

I’m not agreeing with you and then saying that single people were coordinated; I’m saying that coordination isn’t necessary to perform significant acts.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I think we’re not talking about the same thing. Individual acts of terrorism are not significant in my view, the US gets a bunch of politically motivated shootings every year and it accomplishes absolutely nothing. They are horrible tragedies, but not political drivers.

I’m not Nostradamus but my guess is that if Trump were to suddenly up and die, his movement would fizzle out pretty quickly. His lackeys would fight for power Game of Thrones style, which would fragment the movement and make it essentially toothless. His fans would be agitated for a while, most wouldn’t do shit about it, a few would attempt shootings, even fewer would succeed and make headlines for a couple days. But nothing politically significant would happen. Just my $0.02 !

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

“Individual acts of terrorism are not significant in my view”

You can go find someone else to ‘argue’ with.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Pfff haha. Read the comment again. Slowly. You can do it !

alcoholicorn ,

OK, but if it did trigger a civil war, it’d be better to do that now than after they hold the government.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

But given how dangerous his cult is, can you say without a doubt they would stay calm and just accept their leader got killed?

His cult will (and already does) do damage if gets in, so it doesn’t matter if they might if he doesn’t.

And, above all, that the one coming to take his place would be a less fascist person?

The current one already is a fascist person, at that point it doesn’t matter if they’re more or less, any fascist needs to go.

ASDraptor , (edited )

There are levels of fascism. A fascist like Trump is dangerous, but given his lack of intelligence, he’s less dangerous than a fascist that’s smart. You don’t want a smart Trump.

Edit: typo

timewarp ,
@timewarp@lemmy.world avatar

If Trump is stupid, what does that say about the person losing to an idiot?

doughless ,

You can be popular without being intelligent.

bradorsomething ,

There’s a popular misconception trump is an idiot - he’s under educated and has a learning disability that discourages him learning further. He’s very clever with people and can charm them for 5 minutes while stealing their wallets. Remember he runs his own brand, and surrounds himself with people like himself… clever with people but with no strong logic or science background.

Our real problem is that he is good at fooling people like himself; people who are functional in society but could not flip their own breaker when the lights go off. There are a lot of those people, and they have no concept of long term consequences for their short term actions.

timewarp ,
@timewarp@lemmy.world avatar

I’m going to agree with this although I actually think he’s smarter than that. I believe he’s a narcissist which a lot of people think is an idiotic position and in a wholesome functional idealistic society with equality it would be. However, that has never been America. America prides itself on inequality. From differences in education, opportunity, healthcare and quality of life, that is just free market capitalism doing what it does best.

We live in a society where most people equate and idealize money more than ideas, and if you have good ideas … how little can they buy you out for. Will preventing climate change and living in harmony hurt corporate profits. People may have moments of clarity or hope and inspiration if they believe things can and will change, but a majority of people believe it is too late. That America has chosen this path and there is no going back.

ASDraptor ,

About the person losing to him? Nothing. But about the voters? It means that at least half of the people voting (and also a good portion of those who can vote and don’t) are either Nazis or dumber than a rock (or both).

Gradually_Adjusting ,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

For the forgetful, I write to remind us that Biden beat Trump last election - and Trump did not even have the small consolation of having been the smarter man.

blargerer ,

Trump has an amount of media savvy to him which matters a lot in popularity contests. He's also incredibly intellectually lazy and unwilling to put in the work to get things done. The signs of this are all over his first presidency and a matter of public record.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Trump embodies fascism on an instinctive bedrock level. By the time he saw the democracy, he was already a man, and it was nothing to him but stupid.

It’s unlikely that the person that replaces him will be as spiritually aligned with fascism. On the other hand, just like with Hitler, Trump’s pure stupidity and laziness is the one bright spot in what would otherwise be an unbroken landscape of horror that we’re currently driving into.

I think replacing him, atop the machinery that’s been created at this point, with someone who really knew what to do with it and could apply themselves to getting it done, would be probably the worst catastrophe possible out a set of possible futures that doesn’t have any shortage of catastrophes.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You remove Hitler and you get Chancellor Göring. As you suggest, it’s just not that simple.

PepperoniNipple ,

Then remove the Chancellor too, and then the next one, and the next one too until they learn that fucking with humanity is not possible anymore. As it should be.

I mean, it works for the mexican narcos down here. We don’t have guns to defend ourselves, but they do to threaten us and control us. We fear them because they can happily kill us whenever they want.

Why can’t that fear be flipped instead already? Have them fear the people, so they cease to exist. Educating people for that shouldn’t be hard either, either you care about every single human being in the world, or you’re simply not a human. If you only care about yourself, or your family and friends only, you are not human. As simple as it gets, politics and everything else is just a waste of time, excuses for evil people to hide the fact that it is that simple, just so that they can continue being assholes.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It gets harder every time. Do you think it’s going to be anywhere near this easy to take a shot at a major presidential candidate again?

knightly ,
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

Yes, because presidential candidates insist on holding rallies and pressing the flesh. There’s only so much you can do to defend someone who insists on putting themselves in situations like that.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

“Only so much” and “more than they’re currently doing” are two different things.

PepperoniNipple , (edited )

Who gives a fuck about their violent cuiltists? We’d just deal with them properly and that’s it.

You rather instead allow them to grow more in power, until it literally becomes impossible to beat them.

You have to be a MAGA supporter or russian bot to not change your mind on something as basic as that. If I was Putin, this is what I’d do, fill social medias with comments like yours in the hopes it kills the americans’ will to fight evil, so that they crumble more quickly, get destabilized and whatever for me to attack you and conquer you more easily. It’s already happening, more than half of the Internet are apparently bots, this whole hysteria and stress the media is provoking on people with henious comments, fake news, exageratted bs is not random, they’re not dumb or ignorant about it either as much as we love to believe people are better than that, that there’s good in everyone when in fact that’s not true. There are a lot of mentally ill sociopaths and psychopaths that only care about social acceptance, money and power, you just haven’t met one personally in your life yet, probably never will.

As a mexican, a lot of us are already falling so, so bad for russian propaganda thanks to Trump and his supporters. We are starting to openly welcome China and Russia to come here and do whatever they want, because you refuse to change, to stop being so racist towards us. Seeing you say this shit, “no, leave the poor racist MAGAs alone, they can harm us, but we can’t harm them” is just pathetic. We are dying because of people like you. Maybe the only way you understand and finally take some action is when something as big happens to your country as well. It’s sadly the only way

ASDraptor ,

You really can’t see how a smart Trump would be the worst possible scenario? Trump is dumb. A person as evil as him but with half a functional brain would make the world tremble. Of course the world is better without Trump but do we want an alternative that could be more dangerous than him just by the fact of being smarter (something really easy at this point)?

APassenger ,

An organic cause would play out different than an assassin’s bullet. Both candidates have the best Healthcare available, so I dunno that organic is likely tho.

ASDraptor ,

Him dying of an illness or simply old age would remove a good portion of the followers ire (not 100% because I’m sure there would be an interesting portion thinking the cause is fake and someone killed him; and of course some nutjob would try to capitalize it). The problem of a potentially worse successor remains.

The solution is by no means simple and, to do it well, you need a long term plan that includes not only defeating him but also a shock plan for anyone trying to copy him until they return to being a moderate right party.

The solution must include too opening the elections to a more complex system with more than 2 parties and actual alternatives that make people able of voting for something that’s not just “the lesser evil”.

dan1101 ,

I think we’d be better off dealing with the illegal actions of some unhinged Trump mourners than dealing with a legal second Trump administration for 4 (or more?) years.

radivojevic ,

And on the other hand, DeSantis vs Biden? Uh ohhh

PepperoniNipple ,

DeSantis is a massive loser, even Joe Biden could kill that guy with his own hands

dmtalon ,

I disagree with this completely. I believe if he had been killed his supporters would massively ramp up the division that exists now, which would be bad. Revenge, and Retribution are terms used by trump and his followers. I think under that reality it would have triggered some awful things.

knightly ,
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

They’re doing that anyway, the only difference is that their martyr is still alive to lead them.

dmtalon ,

Would love for you to expand “already doing that” in relation to what I was suggesting. I do not see political opponents being physically attacked, I do not see/hear of any armed mobs actively physically trying to ‘take their country back’.

I think that because of 1) trump is still alive and 2) this cook kid doesn’t seem to fit the narrative of their enemy has kept things ‘civil’.

knightly ,
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

Would love for you to expand “already doing that” in relation to what I was suggesting. I do not see political opponents being physically attacked, I do not see/hear of any armed mobs actively physically trying to ‘take their country back’.

You already forgot about Paul Pelosi? The plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan? January 6th? Gabby Giffords? The Proud Boys? Charlottesville? Austin Combs? Kyle Rittenhouse?

Do you need me to keep going? I can name the armed mobs trying to ‘take their country back’ until the cows come home and barely scratch the surface.

dmtalon ,

I’m talking about as a response to him being murdered vs. not. Didn’t think i needed to explain the context of my comment.

I disagree with this completely. I believe if he had been killed his supporters would massively ramp up the division that exists now

Editing for the literal context from my original comment.

knightly , (edited )
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

That is exactly the point I’m referring to.

There is nowhere to “ramp up the division” any further, it’s already at the point where the news simply can’t keep up with all the political violence in this country.

You already don’t ever hear about the FBI and Secret Service following up on death threats to politicians anymore, that stopped being a story decades ago. Bomb threats against institutions like schools are so common that word of them rarely escalates beyond the local area. Mass shootings occur regularly, but only the most egregious ones make the news.

America has been collapsing for decades now.

Wytch ,

I’m inclined to agree.

When a sudden power vacuum appears, two things are likely to happen. One, there’s a mad scramble to grab that power and two, they’ll turn on each other in the attempt. But that’s all that seems certain.

Leadership would change hands and divisions would deepen, but they’ve been on a path of retribution and violence for a long time now. Trump’s exit wouldn’t end that.

MeekerThanBeaker ,

He’ll likely die of a heart attack or stroke and MAGA folks will still blame the left for it.

dan1101 ,

Bring it on, get it over with. The Civil War would have been much worse if Jefferson Davis was president instead of Lincoln.

xc2215x ,

Jon is completely right.

Today ,

The (unhinged, dumb as a rock, self absorbed) devil you know is better then the (smarter, psychopath) devil you don’t.

PepperoniNipple ,

Nah, he’s wrong. The country and the entire world would be better without Trump and his supporters

LikeTearsInTheRain ,

The supporters aren’t going anywhere though, even if the bullet hit. And JD Vance has essentially inherited the MAGA base now such that the movement doesn’t die with Trump anymore. Pence was never going to really do that when he was VP. But Vance could carry the torch as running mate and gave the party a more clear view of what succession looks like.

Jax ,

I didn’t realize that all of Trumps supporters were psychically linked and would fall like dominoes once the Great Orange One falls.

treadful ,
@treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

Maybe they’re like warewolves. If you kill the first one, all the others change back to normal people.

androogee ,

Why do people act like Trump supporters are even tangentially connected to reality? They’re not.

If they want to do some awful thing, and the reason doesn’t exist, they’ll make up a reason. They’ll shoot up a pizza restaurant over a basement that doesn’t exist. They’ll storm the capital to deny the reality of an election. They do not give a fuck about reality.

They are already doing every single awful thing they want to do. Refusing to resist them because they might continue to be the exact same people they already are is so fucking stupid and infuriating.

ryathal ,

He’s not wrong. If you thought the last debate was bad for Biden imagine if there was a DeSantis or Haley up there to really hammer the age difference and speak in complete sentences. That person also gets to carry out Trump’s vision and honor his memory. Once they won the election, they also get the opportunity to pass legislation that was Trump’s dieing wish.

PepperoniNipple ,

Nah, if Trump got killed, the chances of Joe Biden getting replaced by someone even better than DeSantis and whoever that whore is would increase, and even someone like Joe Biden would shit on someone like DeSantis

ryathal ,

That’s wishful thinking, Biden already flopped against Trump he’s not going to crush someone that’s not equally demented.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m just glad he decided not to go in person to the RNC.

Because he dodged a catastrophe.

return2ozma OP ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

Direct video: youtu.be/u8yL3I_6Oco

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