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GreenTacklebox ,

What would you suggest Palestinians do in the face of the genocidal monster known as Israel?

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Stop targeting Isreali civilians and target the Israeli military/state only, like every other independence movement that gained widespread international support.

Madison420 ,

You know aside from proto isrealis like Lehi which bombed ironically enough a mandate of Palestinian embassy killing civilians.

If you’re not aware they’re heros of Israel and were absorbed directly into the Israeli military and given medals for terrorist acts as Israel became a nation.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

If you’re not aware they’re heros of Israel and were absorbed directly into the Israeli military and given medals for terrorist acts as Israel became a nation.

I mean yeah I knew about that, but literally all of Israel’s neighbors hated them, I wouldn’t say that’s being successful in gaining support from the broader international community, hasn’t the UN been condemning Israel for all of its actions against Palestine since 1948?

I was thinking more of the ANC and Mandela, who tried to avoid civilian deaths throughout the fight against Apartheid.

Madison420 ,

They didn’t have neighbors! They weren’t a fucking country they were an ethnic minority taking offensive action against Palestine to force the mandate to make a country for them. Sure the UN condemns it in the same way they condemn illegal settlements and settler’s killing of Palestinians, ie. In word only

You can avoid conflict to some extent but when they’re striking food gatherings, refugees and a statistically unlikely amount of “accidental” deaths of journalists and often their entire families the whole turn the other cheek thing just leaves you with two black eyes and an entitled abuser.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

They didn’t have neighbors! They weren’t a fucking country they were an ethnic minority taking offensive action against Palestine to force the mandate to make a country for them.

They did have neighbors after they won the war in '48, that’s what I was referencing, iirc there wasn’t very much international support for either side pre-Israeli statehood, most of the weapons the Zionists used in '48 were smuggled from Czechoslovakia or stolen from the British for example.

Sure the UN condemns it in the same way they condemn illegal settlements and settler’s killing of Palestinians, ie. In word only

That’s really all the UN can do when Israel’s powerful international sponsors will veto anything more than that. My point is that a majority of nations on earth have condemned Israel, and that doesn’t feel like widespread international support to me.

the whole turn the other cheek thing just leaves you with two black eyes and an entitled abuser.

I’m not suggesting Palestinians should “turn the other cheek” I’m saying that killing civilians does nothing for their cause except give Zionists something to point to and say “See we were totally right, we have to keep displacing them because they’re violent and can’t be trusted with statehood”.

If Hamas only targeted the Israeli military and state, then there would be no massacres for the Zionists to point to.

Madison420 ,

Yes yes, history benefits you of you don’t look too deeply, gotcha. Germany had never had any racial issues… Just ignore ≈1850-1945.

Not stopping it at some point becomes support, it’s an invasion and occupation of a non peer nation.

Oh I’m sure there was never any religious zealotry in the middle east before 1948… Not one.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Yes yes, history benefits you of you don’t look too deeply, gotcha. Germany had never had any racial issues… Just ignore ≈1850-1945.

Non-sequitur?

Not stopping it at some point becomes support, it’s an invasion and occupation of a non peer nation.

Yes which is why Hamas is perfectly justified in targeting Israeli military personnel under international law. Shooting up random gated neighborhoods full of civilians and random music festivals, however, is completely and unequivocally unjustifiable and needs to stop if they ever want to succeed in their goal of an independent Palestine.

Oh I’m sure there was never any religious zealotry in the middle east before 1948… Not one.

Non-sequitur?

Madison420 ,

Nope, direct comparison. Don’t draw random lines in the sand, history is history we don’t get to cut out the inconvenient parts.

No one is supporting that what people are saying is that a military that is essentially an insurgency manages to kill fewer civilians than Israel even when they go after civilians. You point fingers at Hamas killing civilians yet again but make no mention of the fact that Israel by their own Numbers have killed like twenty times as many civilians and that’s ignoring settler’s murdering Palestinians in a whole other country that they aren’t at war with.

Again no. You say everything stops if Palestine does, historically that isn’t the case and that history spans like 2000 years.

wildbus8979 ,

More power to them. Someone has got to fight back against the aggressor.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Is that what October 7th was? Was that really an aggressive music festival?

girlfreddy ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

The strawman argument has arrived.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Is it really a strawman? The “resistance” were the ones who did October 7th, and the ones who shot up the music festival. I don’t think there’s any way to defend a group that does that, other than trying to argue it was somehow justified.

wildbus8979 ,

So what about before Oct 7th what about the hundreds of dead Palestinians in the last year in the West Bank? What about the 2014 massacres in Gaza? 2006? Is that also because of Oct 7th?

Get lost apartheid apologist.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Do those justify what Hamas did on October 7th? It’s possible to criticize both sides when both sides have been repeatedly committing atrocities on each other since 1948.

I believe that without one of the sides stopping and saying they’re done and want peace, and the other side being forced to not capitalize on that situation by the international community, that both sides will constantly feel justified in their violence on eachothers civilians.

Llewellyn ,

Get lost, Oct 7th apologist

NoIWontPickAName ,

That doesn’t make killing or kidnapping innocents right.

Both sides of this are bad people and the only good ones are the innocents caught in the middle

wildbus8979 , (edited )

One side is a genocidal apartheid state. The other is the recipient of that. And you, a very smart person, think it’s ok to both side this issue and criticise oppressed people’s meager means of resistance. That makes you an apartheid apologist. You’re the same type of person who called Mandela a terrorist, but probably praises him now. You’re on the wrong side of history.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Am I? I feel safe just going with fuck hummus and fuck Israel.

Good people don’t attack music festivals and kill innocents that have nothing to do with it.

Good people also don’t demolish cities and kill innocents that have nothing to do with the fight.

wildbus8979 ,

Only one group is demolishing cities here.

You sound like someone who would have told the Jews in the Warsaw ghettos that you can’t agree with their methods when they took up arms and that because they did it’s reasonable for the Nazis to eradicate them.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Yeah the Israelis are demolishing cities and killing innocents.

Hummus attacked innocents and kidnapped CHILDREN.

They could have turned around and released them the next day and said something like “ They got dragged along in the moment, we recognize that these children are innocent and would like to return them because we are fighting back against oppression, not children.” and I personally would have a shit ton more respect, they should have gave back the old people too, but at least they are adults.

Israel’s response and previous action one are without justification, so is kidnapping toddlers.

So yeah, both are bad.

wildbus8979 ,

They have offered to release the hostages MULTIPLE TIMES already.

NoIWontPickAName ,

On what conditions?

wildbus8979 ,

Ceasefire.

NoIWontPickAName ,

So why should the release of the children have been predicated upon that?

wildbus8979 , (edited )

Because it’s literally the only leverage they have? How hard is that to comprehend?

Why won’t Israel release the thousands of hostages? Kids as young as 12, held with no trial for years on end in “administrative detention” in military prisons.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Ok. Israel is bad as well.

How does that justify not handing over the kids for free to show that you don’t want kids involved.

The adults are one thing, we can talk about how valid some of them are all day and still have more to talk about.

There is absolutely no valid reason not to immediately remove the children from the horrors of war and hostage taking.

Don’t give me any bullshit about how Israel does it too.

Just because someone is law does something wrong doesn’t make it right for you to do so.

So, I want you to explain to me how it is moral to involve children in this and why CHILDREN should not have been immediately released and why we had to bargain to get the CHILDREN.

I give zero fucks about adults.

I await your reply

NoIWontPickAName ,

I’m still waiting on that explanation on why it is ok for hummus to use children as pawns

wildbus8979 ,

Except that Hamas has released the children. As far as we know the only two children still captive are infants, you want them separated from their parents? That does not sound better. You’re more concerned about TWO infants than the literal tens of thousands of dead and wounded children.

Now you can stop with your concern trolling. You’re only goal here is both siding genocide and apartheid. The apartheid and ethnic cleansing has been ongoing for far longer than Hamas has been around and you know that. We’re you vehemently denouncing Israel and asking for the release of the thousands of Palestinian hostages before Oct 7th? I highly doubt it.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Why were they not released immediately?

Why did they have to be traded?

Fuck Hummus and Israel, they are child killing bastards who have decided that they are going to do what they want and damn the consequences to anyone in their way.

Fuck Hummus and israel for involving motherfucking children.

Fuck Hummus and Israel for kidnapping children.

Good enough for you?

My motherfucking comment history is clearly visible and will show how I damn well feel about the Israeli’s

Quit trying to act like Hummus are the good guys here.

There are no good guys on either side of this war and they all just need to fucking stop this bullshit killing and come to the fucking table like adults

wildbus8979 , (edited )

No not good enough for me. Again you’re the type of person who would have asked people to condemn ZOB in the Warsaw uprising. You’re basically tone policing people who are, and have been, actively genocided for decades. Get fucked. No genocide, no hammas, no violence. You don’t want it to exist? Then end Zionism, let the people return to their homelands, and pay reparations.

“The moment is a difficult one. [But] from the historical point of view, the action of the Palestinians is a blessing. We shall finish them off…Gaza will be liquidated; and this city, which is the intellectual capital of a two to three million-strong nation that has blocked our path to the southern seaboard for thousands years, ever since the first battle with ths Amalek, will have ceased to exist. By the same token, the Palestinians themselves will cease to be a problem for our children and for all who will follow.”

See how that sounds exactly like what Netanyahu, various ministers like Ben-Gvir, members of the Knesset, and media pundits have been saying? Well actually it’s a quote from Himmler talking about the Warsaw uprising with the context switched around.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Ok so in your view every action Hamas has taken is legitimate, including the kidnapping of children?

wildbus8979 ,

I’m my view it’s not worth my time criticizing single actions of desperate people.

How do you feel about Nelson Mandela?

NoIWontPickAName ,

That is not the question I asked.

Do you feel that everything Hamas has done is legitimate?

You don’t get to brush stuff under the rug because it doesn’t help your argument

wildbus8979 , (edited )

I’m my view it’s not worth my time criticizing individual actions of desperate people. Whether some resistance actions are questionable or not is not of particular importance. Resistance itself is moral, legal, and justifiable. Including armed resistance as reiterated multiple times by UN resolutions.

How do you feel about Nelson Mandela? Why are you ignoring the question?

NoIWontPickAName ,

I don’t know shit about Mandela, other than the fact that half the world thought he died.

I’ll be more direct for you, do you think it is ever okay to kidnap children, and, if so, why and in what situations?

wildbus8979 , (edited )

I’ve been very clear so let me repeat again. I think it’s the unfortunate consequence of the escalating violence of the occupation, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. You don’t want oppressed people to commit acts of violence, then don’t oppress them.

You’re basically asking what is the level of violence that is ok for a someone to use when defending themselves from domestic violence to the point where they fear for their lives.

No I will not condemn Hamas. There were less violent options before, those clearly did not work. I condemn occupation, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing. Self defense is always ok, even if sometimes it’s messier than we would like. You can leave now, I’ve made myself extremely clear. I don’t know what the fuck it is that you want other than waste my time.

But before you go, let me as once again, do you condemn ZOB?

NoIWontPickAName ,

Ok person who is fine with people kidnapping children.

wildbus8979 ,

Nice strawman.

Do you condemn ZOB?

NoIWontPickAName ,

Did they kidnap any kids?

Notice I have excluded killing kids this whole time.

That I do believe could happen on accident at least, in fact, I change my comment.

Did they intentionally kidnap any kids, if so, did they ransom them, or return them for free?

wildbus8979 ,

You don’t k ow who ZOB is do you?

NoIWontPickAName ,

Jewish resistance

caveman ,

Well, I’m not there, but if I was Hamas I would never kill any children.

I saw another day some signs written “kidnapped” put by some Jewish people and first I thought “it’s Zionist propaganda”, but when I got near and I saw children I felt so so so sorry. I cannot Imagine any parent deserve this, be it Palestinian or Israeli.

I cannot do anything bad to children.

There’s an interview with Palestinians ok the street about what they think of the 7th October, and many seem to disagree on Hamas for hurting children:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_AR71W6l3M

wildbus8979 ,

Considering they were clearly intending to hit military and police targets and that the rave and kibbutz confrontations happened because they got stuck there in a firefight. And that at least half of the casualties ended up being military or police (a legitimate target under international law). I’d say so, yes. It’s a heck of a better kill ratio than the IDF has, that’s for sure.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, lie to justify the terrorist attack why dont you.

Have you not seen a single video from that day? They gunned down civilians running away screaming, they went house to house in the Kibutz and shot or kidnapped anyone they found, literally on camera.

NoIWontPickAName ,

I don’t give a shit what they intended to do.

They killed innocents, they aren’t the good guys either

nac82 ,

If you rave on contested ground during your genocide, you don’t get to complain when the prisoners break the locks.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

So Germans wouldn’t of been able to say anything had Abba Kovner and Nakam succeeded?

That’s feels a lot like collective punishment but just reversed on the original oppressor. That’s not creating any more justice, just reversing the roles in a still oppressive system.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Now defend the children they kidnapped.

Explain to me why children should be involved.

Because Israel did it is not a valid reason, they are kids.

TransplantedSconie ,

They want maximum Palestinian deaths.

wildbus8979 ,

It isn’t the resistance who has killed or wounded over 100,000 in six months.

Dismantle the apartheid state, and stop the occupation and you will have no resistance.

Until then, people who live it every day have a moral and legal right to resistance, even through armed resistance as was declared through multiple UN resolution over the decades.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Does shooting up a music festival and civilian neighborhoods count as legal violent resistance according to the UN?

wildbus8979 ,

As far as we can tell, the vast majority of the damage done at the festival and the kibbutz was done by the IDF. Eye witness accounts recounted that when they arriv d at the festival they were surprised and lost and asked where the military base was.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

And your source is? Because I’ve literally seen Hamas released propaganda videos of them shooting up the Kibbutz and festival.

NoIWontPickAName ,

They just released a video from a hostage that had his arm blown off that was attending the music festival

wildbus8979 ,

Yeah sucks for that guy. Doesn’t change what I said.

WamGams ,

Hamas is the resistance?

That’s a joke, right? It must be, because I can’t stop laughing. Let me know when you get booked on Rogan.

boyi ,

Absolutely! Killed by the Israeli. Women and children. Disproportionately at more than 30:1 ratios.

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