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Haiti: US guns pour into Port-au-Prince, fuelling surge in violence

“All the guns here are from the US, everybody knows it. If the US wants to stop this, they could easily do it one month!” He pleads: “We are asking the US to give us a chance to live, just give us a chance.”

For a country that does not manufacture weapons, a UN report in January found every type of gun was flooding Port-au-Prince: high-powered rifles such as AK47s, 9mm pistols, sniper rifles and machine guns.

The weapons are fuelling the staggering surge in Haiti’s gang-related violence.

There is no exact number for how many trafficked firearms are currently in Haiti.

The UN report said some estimates put it at half a million legal and illegal weapons here as of 2020.

It reported that guns and ammunition were being smuggled in from land, air and sea from US states such as Florida, Texas and Georgia.

Altofaltception ,

Haiti made the wrong choice of demanding freedom from slavery before European powers were ready to adapt to life without human chattel. We’ve never let them forget that.

sugarfree ,
@sugarfree@lemmy.world avatar

They “demanded freedom from slavery”, and then shortly afterwards engaged in slave raids in what is today the Dominican Republic.

Altofaltception ,

That’s literally the opposite of what happened.

Once Haiti declared independence, they invaded Santo Domingo, effectively ending Spanish occupation of that part of the island. Slavery ended up being abolished by default once the Spanish were removed in 1822.

ours ,

They also invaded SD because they were afraid Spain would invade them first.

JimboDHimbo ,

Fuck the European powers of old and fuck slavery. I wish that all my ancestors killed their masters tbh.

How can you say it’s the wrong choice for anyone to try to defeat an oppressive evil such as slavery?

Altofaltception ,

How can you say it’s the wrong choice for anyone to try to defeat an oppressive evil such as slavery?

It was a wrong choice from the perspective of their masters.

Sylvartas ,

Well, Haiti did kill most of their masters when they rebelled against them. (Which I honestly can understand given the especially awful brand of slavery that was going on there)

Also, while France is to blame for the insane “reparations” that have been forced upon Haiti, they ultimately sold their debt to some wall street banks, who pressured the US government to invade Haiti (on more than one occasion iirc) to force them to take loans with high interest rates in order to repay the debt (and create more).

When I learned about that I couldn’t wrap my head around the fact that forgiving the debt was apparently never an option for anyone involved. So, fuck the banks and also fuck the USA.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

But I keep being told that an armed society is a polite society!

BestBouclettes ,

Mutually assured destruction only works when none of the parties involved are batshit insane

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I can’t think of a real-world example of that.

21Cabbage ,

Hell I’d argue mutually assured destruction drives people batshit insane.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I do not disagree at all.

21Cabbage ,

Still, seems like an improvement on the path humanity was on of having periodic global bloodbaths over individual human egos and the nationalism others attach to it. We still have bloodbaths over those issues, don’t get me wrong, just smaller scale overall.

bhmnscmm ,
@bhmnscmm@lemmy.world avatar

It works until it doesn’t. Then we all face annihilation.

21Cabbage ,

In my opinion the only real move is to hope is things keep spiraling upwards.

ours ,

And nobody please mention Switzerland as an example. Yes, we have lots of guns but they aren’t meant for self-defense outside some very narrow exceptions. Thankfully we can trust our police to do their work and they are usually very well trained.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Too late.

lemmy.world/comment/8873503

Unsurprisingly, he also talked about “gun grabbers” in Switzerland.

SupraMario ,

Considering only the gangs have guns here…not really an armed society is it?

taanegl ,

Also known as the Mexican gambit. Who gave the CIA access to pentagon’s stock pile anyway?

nondescripthandle ,

Yeah if they’re getting machine guns its not from civilians. Civs can’t have any manufactured post 1984 and because of that stipulation they go for 20k at least.

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

They are getting smuggled. Full-auto guns are only difficult to do legally in the US. Pretty sure smugglers don’t care about the law.

nondescripthandle ,

Where do the smugglers obtain machine guns? Because something tells me they’re not smuggling individual guns worth 20k to Haiti. The only people with access to newer machine guns would be the government weather its military or clandestine agencies. So your smugglers are government connected.

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Barbeque seems pretty flush.

catloaf ,

Depends, are we talking full auto AR “machine guns” or actual machine guns like the FN Minimi or bigger?

Because full auto conversions for semi-auto rifles are easy to do. Actual machine guns are harder to come by, but still obtainable if you can get the right FFL and SOT license and either make your own or order them from manufacturers for “resale”.

nondescripthandle ,

Depends on scale for me. Like if there are a high number of automatic ARs going to Haiti I’d start wondering who has the capacity to alter that many guns quickly and traffic them. If its like one or two rifles a reporter heard firing very rapidly then who knows how it got there or when it was modified.

catloaf ,

Any competent person with a little mechanical ability can do a conversion: recoilweb.com/turning-your-ar-15-into-an-m-16-150…

Given the size of the US, I’m sure you could find a couple guys to do it. Or even in Haiti, if you got the parts. And the parts aren’t hard to come by, the whole rifle is harder.

kepa ,

ARs are very easily converted, but some other rifles are not so easy. Ultimately any rifle that as an automatic version will be easy to convert.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

or actual machine guns like the FN Minimi or bigger?

The UN Report lists all of the above PLUS “Belt Fed Machine Guns”. Where da fuk are those coming from?

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

Armies are very good at getting their stuff stolen.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

Haiti doesn’t have an Army and it’s not possible to steal THAT much inventory from the US Military without getting caught. It is possible for something to “fall off the back of the truck” occasionally but that kind of opportunity is extremely limited.

Those AK47s are the same way, they can’t be purchased here…at least not in Full Auto form and the weapon that guy in the first picture is holding ALSO isn’t available for over the counter purchase in the United States. They may be “coming” from the US in that they are being shipped from Florida to Haiti but the United States itself almost certainly isn’t the original source.

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

Well there’s stolen and “stolen” if it’s actually the CIA sending it over.

catloaf , (edited )

Haiti doesn’t have an army now. They had several military branches, and paramilitary groups too, up until 1995. Those groups were definitely armed. Where do you think the guns went when they were disbanded?

I don’t know where “here” is for you, but you can definitely buy AKs like that in most parts of the US.

Edit: actually I’m not sure what that rifle even is. It looks like an AK, but has an AR stock and it doesn’t look like an AK magazine… But the ejection port is only big enough for pistol rounds like 9mm. Given that, and the variety of guns in the other picture, I think they’re just getting whatever they can, wherever and whenever they can, so we’re not talking crates full of ARs coming over from the US very recently.

theyoyomaster ,

It’s a Galil Ace in 5.56, the ejection port is larger than the small spot you’re looking at. The original Galil was very close to an AK, the ACE diverged quite a bit more but uses the same basic design. I don’t know enough about them to tell if it’s a civilian SA receiver or not, they’re fairly rare in the US. Definitely a boutique gun for collectors and not something that falls into the black market much. No way to tell for sure but I would guess there’s a decent chance it wasn’t sourced from the US.

theyoyomaster ,

Well, it piqued my curiosity and now I think I have figured it out, which makes this far more interesting. The Galil Ace civilian version was an extremely limited run with less than 1100 total rifles being made, all for the US market and all chambered in 5.45x39. The rifle in the title picture of this article complaining about the flood of US guns depicts a gun that was never sold to any US civilian nor used by any US government agency (there is a slight chance of a handful of highly restricted and tracked “dealer samples” existing). If you look at the list of users for the 5.56 version of the Galil Ace you will notice that it is used by several Central and South American governments/police forces as well as… Haitian police forces.

nondescripthandle ,

In that case I have a song that I think is appropriate www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjhlgdfhfWk

There’s probably nary a Haitian that would be surprised if it turns out the US is arming their gangs. This song is 24 years old now.

kepa ,

I have to say there is no such thing as a full automatic rifle. There are Automatics or Semi- Automatics! Just read it to often and started twitching lol!

Kusimulkku ,

Are they easily available illegally, especially in the amounts that they’d get sold and shipped to Haiti?

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

A lot of semiautomatic mechanisms can be converted to select fire with very little tooling or investment, you don’t need legally detained “machine guns” per the NFA definition to smuggle guns, anything cheap and untraceable enough will do.

TigrisMorte ,

Hint: all the guns here are from anywhere that makes guns. This is sadly not special treatment for Haiti. The US is the source for all the guns including the Russian made ones. It isn't personal. It's just business. And a business doesn't care whom they maim and kill in their lust for cash unless forced by Law to care.

Dudewitbow ,

which export location is actually exporting AK47s?

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

The same one exporting Belt Fed Machine Guns. Half of the stuff covered in the article can’t be bought in the United States so I’d really REALLY like to know where in the hell its coming from.

TransplantedSconie ,

Starts with a R and rhymes with Ussia.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

That’s certainly possible but I’d bet that the regular ol’ Arms Dealers, think Lord of War, are the ones behind it.

To be fair 9mm Pistols and AR pattern rifles could absolutely be sourced in the US and shipped to Haiti so I’m perfectly willing to believe that part of it, but this other stuff? No way.

PoliticalAgitator , (edited )

I love the accidental admission that you only want to know where it’s coming from because it can’t be bought in America, implying you wouldn’t like to know otherwise.

Accross the continent, a huge number of guns recovered in crimes can be traced back to a gun store in America. It’s an incredibly low risk way to source firearms, especially compared to things like “robbing the military”.

But just because a domestic abuser with a room temperature IQ can’t buy one at his local Walmart doesn’t mean they’re not American guns. The “profits first, people never” mentality of arms manufacturers and their pet politicians has resulted in billions of dollars of weapons in the hands of militant groups.

Of course if you genuinely wanted to know, there’s multiple reports on exactly that topic. Be sure to tell us what you learn from them, so we know you’re not just defending Americas gun laws by muddying the waters.

Kusimulkku ,

I think they “really wanted to know where they’re coming from” because the explanation from the article didn’t seem plausible.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

I think they “really wanted to know where they’re coming from” because the explanation from the article didn’t seem plausible.

That’s exactly it. The only fully automatic firearms available for purchase in the United States are going to be used, very expensive, closely tracked by the Federal Government, with very limited quantities available. The idea that these kinds of firearms are being sourced in the US is unbelievable.

Semi-Auto firearms I can believe, although its still wildly illegal, but not the full auto stuff. There’s just no way.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

Accross the continent, a huge number of guns recovered in crimes can be traced back to a gun store in America.

Not fully automatic firearms. The very few for sale in the United States are old, expensive, Federally tracked, and not available in any real quantity.

I love the accidental admission that you only want to know where it’s coming from because it can’t be bought in America…

Yes, because the explanation being given by the article doesn’t match with the reality of firearms in the U.S.

For instance that firearm in the first picture of the original article simply isn’t for sale at any shop in the United States. The only way you are buying it is with a special permit from the US Federal Government itself, the permit is only given to specific military and possibly some police organizations. The permit will only allow the purchase of a pre specified number of an exact model of firearm, and that purchase will be tracked (by serial number) from the time of manufacture through the sale process and delivery to the permitted organization.

Once all that’s done the permitted organization cannot legally sell them, let alone export them, without a whole 'nother pile of paperwork that requires Federal approval.

Be sure to tell us what you learn from them, so we know you’re not just defending Americas gun laws by muddying the waters.

I read the article you posted at the beginning of March. In fact I’ve probably read the majority of the articles, and the studies underpinning them, on this subject for at least twenty years. I even read the U.N. Report linked in the original article. Did you?

The truth is that simple semi-auto weapons like AR pattern rifles and Glocks can be bought here, sure, but a dozen different Federal Laws are being broken in order to get them to the gangs in Haiti. I’m sure it’s happening anyway and I’m not arguing about that.

What I’m saying is that is that the claims of full auto weapons coming from the US are extraordinary and need far more proof than just an AP News article.

PoliticalAgitator ,

I guess it’s the magic gun fairy then, manifesting American-made guns out of thin air and leaving them under the pillows of gang members the world over.

tal , (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Heh, good catch.

There actually was a Kalashnikov factory in the US producing Real Authentic Kalashnikov AK-47s. Was one of the very early victims of sanctions over Ukraine.

googles

kalashnikov-usa.com

Looks like they still exist. I think that it was partly owned by someone who was sanctioned, so maybe they divested.

looks further

Kalashnikov Firearms

Russian Heritage. American Innovation.

Man, this was not a good decade for that particular ad campaign.

I don’t see AK-47s on the site, so maybe they only do other firearms.

googles

Ah, apparently the synthetic-stock thing, the KR-103, counts and was probably what they were selling.

pewpewtactical.com/kalashnikov-usa-kr-103-review/

It looks like they got whacked back after the invasion of Crimea, so some time back.

home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jl2572

According to the above Pew Pew Tactical article, it looks like those Crimea-invasion sanctions were what started the US-based factory – they set up domestic production in the US to provide their US sales, since they couldn’t import from Russia any more.

The American company, Kalashnikov USA, was initially an importer of Russian-made firearms until the US government banned importation.

Using their familiarity and know-how, the importers became manufacturers, creating their own firearms based on Russian specifications.

I guess that strictly-speaking, the term should still be “AK-pattern”, Kalashnikov or not. Says that it’s based on the AK-103, which is really a descendant of the AK-47.

theyoyomaster ,

AK47s were only really produced for about 10 years, the vast majority are AKMs and derivatives.

tal ,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

“All the guns here are from the US, everybody knows it. If the US wants to stop this, they could easily do it one month!”

Man, I’d believe that there’s arms smuggling from the US, but we can’t fully stop drug smuggling through the Carribbean, and we’ve used aerostat radars, helicopter-borne snipers, satellite surveillance, and you name it, have a ton of resources allocated to it, have been banging on that for decades. Why do you think arms smuggling is more amenable?

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

The UN dogma of guns causing violence is ridiculous and insane. Switzerland isn’t Hell.

Civilians can’t easily own or carry guns in Haiti so only criminals are armed.

No one can uninvent guns. No one can stop smuggling. No one can stop illegal manufacturing. Gun control is a fantasy and/or totalitarian nightmare fuel.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Switzerland has far more gun regulations than the U.S. If you’re arguing for purchasing permits and concealed carry only by rarely-issued permits, sure. I’ll go with that. Better than what the U.S. has now.

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

Background checks in the US are practically equivalent to purchasing permits in CH, except the data retention is less specific because the date of purchase and what is purchased is harder to tell. Concealed carry was only restricted in the 1990s by gun-grabbers.

Also the US isn’t a monolith with one set of laws.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

They are in no way equivalent. That’s simply a lie. But then your “gun grabbers” comment shows you’re not here in good faith.

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

They both check you don’t have a criminal record and/or aren’t prohibited from purchasing guns. They both allow you to buy a firearm once they have cleared. You have to pay either way. Purchasing permits you get from the police, background checks are done by licensed dealers but the authorisation comes from executive power as well.

What’s the difference?

EDIT: My good faith is still on less shaky ground than the UN saying guns cause violence but having armed guards whenever and wherever they like.

ours , (edited )

The US has a well-known loophole allowing people to buy guns without any check or registration by buying from a private citizen or at fairs.

Switzerland has no such exceptions. To acquire guns, you need to apply for a permit and register them. Inherit guns? Same. Go to a gun fair? The cops are actually there so you can get an express permit if you had already been giving a valid one that’s less than a year old.

Licensed dealers aren’t allowed to check anything: you bring the permit delivered by the police, they check that and your ID and have to file the registration on purchase.

In Switzerland, there is no legal framework for gun self-defense and it states so clearly on the permit: it’s a permit to buy a gun (and related gear like ammo), you can keep it at home, take it (strictly unloaded including mags) to the range or an armorer and that’s it. Carry permits are only for professionals.

Edit: Switzerland is actually more permissive in the type of weapons one can buy as long as one gets the right permits. Buying a fully automatic short-barrel rifle with a suppressor would be much easier and cheaper than in the US. The hassle would be finding a place to shoot it since taking a full-auto to a range requires an additional daily permit and the range to allow it.

vorpuni ,
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

I meant the checks by dealers are the thing in the US. And the “loopholes” for private sales and transfers aren’t everywhere and their federal laws are harsher than in most of Europe.

If someone has traces of THC in their system they’re automatically a criminal if they handle a gun. If they downloaded a film and they’re a convenient target politically they can also get in trouble (unenforced laws are enforceable).

tal ,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Switzerland isn’t Hell.

That’s Norway.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Or Michigan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

spyd3r ,
@spyd3r@sh.itjust.works avatar

AK-47s coming from the US??? Yeah I’m just going to have to stop you right there, that is complete nonsense.

Sylvartas ,

I mean, maybe not actual AK47s but there are a fuckton of AK pattern rifles chambered in various NATO calibers. Aren’t those decently easy to find in the US ?

ours ,

And they don’t need to be made in the US to be smuggled from the US. I bet they are Chinese-made clones.

spyd3r ,
@spyd3r@sh.itjust.works avatar

There are AK clones available here, but they aren’t "AK47"s, and they aren’t full-auto, and they aren’t a military surplus item here. Perhaps this is just journalistic incompetence, but this seems more like an anti-US hitpiece.

mycathas9lives ,
@mycathas9lives@mastodon.social avatar

@spyd3r @Sylvartas

Ah yes, I had to expand the post as my initial thought was AK47 autoflower. I couldn't have been more wrong.

MyOpinion ,

America as usual spreading the plague of guns world wide.

theyoyomaster ,

The title picture for this article shows a fully automatic gun that is illegal in all forms for civilian ownership in the US and does not come in a semi-auto version that is civilian legal. It is also used by the Haitian police as well as the police and governments of several Central and South American countries. It almost certainly did not come from the US.

werefreeatlast ,

What they need right now is a bag of fruit and burritos! 😄

No more war machines, let’s send food instead.

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