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Supreme Court unanimously rules against government in No Fly List case

Fikre alleges that he traveled to Sudan in late 2009 in pursuit of growing an electronics business in his native East Africa. The FBI questioned him while in Sudan, according to court filings, telling Fikre he was on the No Fly List and could be removed if he became an informant.

Fikre allegedly refused and moved to the United Arab Emirates, where he claims he was then abducted and tortured for months by the country’s secret police at the FBI’s request. After leaving the United Arab Emirates, Fikre says he moved to Sweden, filed his lawsuit and sought asylum.

dogslayeggs ,

While I’m very much in favor of a No Fly List in principle, the way it is implemented is just obviously unconstitutional.

I get that if you make the list publicly available, or even only available if you ask if you are on it, that lets potential enemies know they’ve been identified and possibly infiltrated. There’s a reason why certain pieces of seemingly inconsequential information is classified, because if the enemy knows we know, then they know we’ve put a spy in their ranks. And depending on the information, it might be easy for them to identify WHO the spy is. But this has real-world impacts on real people, and if you have no idea why you are on there, that you are even on there, or how to get off of there, then that is horribly unconstitutional.

DAMunzy ,

Why have a no fly list? If it was for unruly people that went through the court process that would be one thing (still would be unfair but less so than what we have).

brygphilomena ,

9/11. 80s plane hijackings. Numerous plane bombings.

It’s not just unruly passengers.

DAMunzy ,

And the TSA was put in place for that… No?

brygphilomena ,

And we passed the patriot act.

Those incidents lead to more than one attempt at a solution.

frezik ,

By the 90s, hijackings were already way down, and deaths due to hijjackings were rare. 9/11 shows up as a big blip on the death scale, but other than that, it was already running up against zero.

ourworldindata.org/airline-hijackings-were-once-c…

And those are worldwide numbers, not just the US.

brygphilomena ,

He asked why and I gave 3 reasons. I didn’t say they were good reasons, or that I agree.

Leading up to 9/11 hijackings were mostly for ransom anyway. But just because hijackings were decreasing doesn’t mean that wasn’t a reason they were implemented.

Its hard for me to conceive of a hijacking today with some of the changes that have happened in the airline industry. But that could be a reason that a no fly list might continue to exist.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

The “No Fly List” is unconstitutional garbage. The list is secret, you can’t get the fuck off of it, and it’s absolutely riddled with errors.

I applaud SCOTUS for not allowing the Federal Government to retract Fikre’s listing and then claim the issue is “moot” to avoid a potentially unfavorable ruling.

The No Fly List needs to be de-invented. Immediately.

PhlubbaDubba ,

I think the concept has merit, the problem is the complete lack of accountability and transparency.

Fix those points and you have a fairly reasonable way to stop people with criminal histories from just skipping the country and running to a no extradition country to escape justice.

John_McMurray ,

deleted_by_moderator

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    PhlubbaDubba ,

    Imagine being the kind of loser that unironically uses statist as an insult.

    John_McMurray ,

    deleted_by_moderator

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    Liz ,

    Can’t you just have a “no leaving the county” list instead? If you can enforce one, you can enforce the other.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    … that’s the exact same thing?

    somethingchameleon ,

    No it’s not.

    echodot ,

    Well yeah except boats exist

    uis ,

    Trains and cars too

    Hylactor ,

    If you examine the situation very closely you may be able to spot a few differences between flying from Michigan to Las Vegas, versus flying from Idaho to Egypt.

    RaoulDook ,

    That would be fine if it were backed up by warrants, proper due process.

    brygphilomena ,

    Who cares if they leave the country? It’s no longer our problem so long as they don’t come back.

    It was used, at least partially, for high risk individuals that they considered might be a terroristic threat akin to the 9/11 hijackings.

    Liz ,

    There’s plenty of crimes that affect people inside your country and can be perpetrated by people outside your country. If the criminal happens to be inside your country, don’t let them leave.

    uis ,

    Buying knife abroad is still preparation outside of country, still to commit crime in some country you have to be in that country.

    Liz ,

    “Perpetrated,” not prepared.

    You can become a gang leader and decide the fuz are getting too close to your trail, then move to Honduras and keep advising your gang members back home. You could also just scam people out of their money over the internet and the country in which the victims live is going to be interested prosecuting you, regardless of where you are.

    uis ,

    “Perpetrated,” not prepared.

    Derp. Then you have crime commited outside of jurisdiction of US.

    Liz ,

    Yes and no. It’s a crime committed across international borders. The US can’t go into the other country to go get the perpetrator, but if they step foot inside the US the feds can arrest and charge them. If their home country is decent the perpetrator will get charged at home or extradited to the US, but some countries don’t do either, for a variety of reasons.

    brygphilomena ,

    We don’t need a no fly list for that. We can use the same info that would prevent them from flying to arrest them instead.

    Liz ,

    Agreed. I only said "don’t let them leave. "

    Badeendje , (edited )
    @Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

    Same as the sex offender registry in the US. If it was only for a very select group of high risk people… but they put people on there for so many small things, it has lost its purpose.

    echodot ,

    Why, what did you do?

    Badeendje ,
    @Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

    LoL… you ass! :D.

    Just in case, people that publicly urinate get put on there as you have your genitals out in public meaning you must be a sex offender.

    corsicanguppy ,

    There’ve been stories of people landing on the list for mooning someone. I don’t know about you, but I was 18 once, and it’s a tough age for showing everyone your bum.

    Badeendje ,
    @Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

    This! The American obsession with infinite punishment is weird. They should just clear out a nice rectangular state, fence it off and call it a prison.

    uis ,

    The list is secret.

    Secret document affecting people’s rights? Are you sure we are not talking about Russia?

    Buelldozer ,
    @Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

    Are you sure we are not talking about Russia?

    People have been making that point since the thing was created and yes IMO the No Fly List really is un-American.

    uis ,

    I think it’s more American than European

    yesman ,

    There was a golden moment, after the raid on Trump’s club, when reactionaries were openly calling to de-fund the FBI. Dems should have taken them up on that offer.

    Whenever the FBI “disrupts” a terrorist plot. Until proven otherwise, I assume that the FBI masterminded the plot, provided all the materials and funding, then arrest the people they recruited. And you watch, now that focus has been shifted to reactionary terrorism, they’re going to do the same shit, except replace Islamist suckers for militia patsies. It’s important to remember this because these tactics shift resources to railroad dumbasses (easy) instead of investigating the actual threats (hard).

    Strong arming Fikre to become a snitch reminds me of what happened to Randy Weaver.

    Late2TheParty ,
    @Late2TheParty@lemmy.world avatar

    When I was an Afghanistan analyst, people would ask me about the role of their NDS. My 10 second speech was to say they are like the FBI, but without any tradecraft. Guess I should have stopped after FBI. Cuz they, sure as shootin’, don’t have any either.

    jordanlund ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Wait, this guy got OFF the list?

    Somebody better tell David Nelson.

    www.washingtontimes.com/…/20030616-104109-4241r/

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    “In at least some instances, requiring the Government to disclose sensitive information regarding its grounds for placing or removing a person from the No-Fly List could undermine the Government’s significant interests in airline safety and the prevention of terrorist attack,” Alito wrote.

    Horseshit. I don’t know what part of “due process” people don’t understand. If the government is limiting your right to movement, they need to prove why when questioned. No exceptions. Especially so if the individual(s) in question have not been charged with any crime.

    Shirasho ,

    Agreed. Public safety is making everyone aware and allowing them to make informed decisions. Public safety is not hiding information hoping the problem solves itself.

    AstridWipenaugh ,

    You must have forgotten about the Patriot Act. “Terrorists” don’t get rights, and we don’t have to tell you why we think you’re a terrorist. (And that’s super fucked up and unconstitutional)

    Minotaur ,

    A terrorist is whoever says something that the current administration doesn’t agree with. And the internet makes it very, very easy to “find” terrorists

    PP_BOY_ , (edited )
    @PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh yeah, and they’ve got to be brown too. When white people do that they’re patriots or lone wolfs.

    Liz ,

    Cop City is trying to change that.

    frezik ,

    Most of the Patriot Act has sunset at this point. Doesn’t really exist anymore.

    brygphilomena ,

    While I agree that this should be handled with due process, I disagree with your conclusion that this is infringing on someone’s right of movement (outside of international flights.)

    It would affect your access to a mode of transportation, but not the transportation itself. Something that we already have restrictions on outside of air travel, such as drivers licenses.

    Regardless, it’s still a fucked up authoritarian list and process.

    uis ,

    It would affect your access to a mode of transportation

    What if you have sea sickness?

    such as drivers licenses.

    Name country that requires driver’s licence to be passanger.

    catloaf ,

    The government should not be allowed to make a case moot just because it would be inconvenient for them. I’m pretty sure that by the time SCOTUS grants cert, it’s because there’s a genuine legal principle that needs resolving, not just for the individual case. (At least in normal times, current court notwithstanding.)

    kescusay ,
    @kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

    2009 was the first year of the Obama presidency, and changes at the DOJ and FBI are slow. So my first question is: Who signed off on his mistreatment? Whose name is on the order, and did that person start at the FBI with Obama, or in an earlier administration?

    FlowVoid ,

    The director of the FBI from 2001 to 2013 was Robert Mueller. Yes, that Robert Mueller.

    kescusay ,
    @kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

    Interesting. It may not have been a director-level signoff, but he certainly would have hired whoever did.

    Bonesince1997 ,

    Fuck the federal police

    Minotaur ,

    Also the regular police

    Lemjukes ,

    What about the fashion police?

    Minotaur ,

    Anyone who says I can’t wear my JNCO jeans can be defunded

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