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Recommend me a scripting language

I’ve been looking around for a scripting language that:

  • has a cli interpreter
  • is a “general purpose” language (yes, awk is touring complete but no way I’m using that except for manipulating text)
  • allows to write in a functional style (ie. it has functions like map, fold, etc and allows to pass functions around as arguments)
  • has a small disk footprint
  • has decent documentation (doesn’t need to be great: I can figure out most things, but I don’t want to have to look at the interpter source code to do so)
  • has a simple/straightforward setup (ideally, it should be a single executable that I can just copy to a remote system, use to run a script and then delete)

Do you know of something that would fit the bill?

Here’s a use case (the one I run into today, but this is a recurring thing for me).

For my homelab I need (well, want) to generate a luhn mod n check digit (it’s for my provisioning scripts to generate synchting device ids from their certificates).

I couldn’t find ready-made utilities for this and I might actually need might a variation of the “official” algorithm (IIUC syncthing had a bug in their initial implementation and decided to run with it).

I don’t have python (or even bash) available in all my systems, and so my goto language for script is usually sh (yes, posix sh), which in all honestly is quite frustrating for manipulating data.

lord_ryvan ,

Why aren’t python and bash be available in all your systems? Which languages would be?

I would’ve recommended python, otherwise perl or Haskell (maybe Haskell’s too big) or something, but now I’m worried that whatever reason makes python undoable also makes perl etc. undoable

gomp OP ,

Why aren’t python and bash be available in all your systems?

Among others, I run stuff on alpine and openwrt.

I don’t need to run these scripts everywhere (strictly speaking, I don’t need the homlab at all), but I was wondering if there’s something that I can adopt as a default goto solution without having to worry about how each system is packaged/configured.

As for python, I doubt the full version would fit in my router plus as said I don’t want to deal with libraries/virtualenvs/… and (in the future) with which distro comes with python3 vs pyton4 (2 vs 3 was enough). Openwrt does have smaller python packages, but then I would be using different implementations on different systems: again something I’d rather not deal with.

As for perl, it would be small enough, but I find it a bit archaic/esoteric (prejudice, I know), plus again I don’t want to deal with how every distro decides to package the different things (eg. openwrt has some 40+ packages for perl - if I were doing serious development that would be ok, but I don’t want to worry about that for just some scripts).

lord_ryvan ,

Is compiling scripts an option? Aka compiling them in C, C++, Rust, whatever for your router on another machine, and copying and executing those binaries on your router?

mbirth ,

Sounds like you want MicroPython. It’s definitely available on OpenWrt and AlpineLinux and has a very small footprint.

If you don’t like Python, have a look at Lua/luajit.

flubba86 , (edited )

You might be interested in Raku. It is Perl6, or what used to be called Perl6, but it deviated too far away from the original perl and it ended up with a different team of developers than perl 5, so they forked it, changed the name and turned it into a new language.

Shareni ,

if there’s something that I can adopt as a default goto solution without having to worry about how each system is packaged/configured.

Go is probably your best bet. Simple to use, and you can compile it so it runs everywhere

WatTyler ,

Mate, I came on here to post Haskell as a semi-ironic ‘joke’ and it’s included in the top comment. You’ve made my day.

lord_ryvan ,

I mean, it’s a functional programming language and an incredibly good one. But it probably has a far too big footprint for their use-case…

WatTyler ,

Oh, I know. I adore Haskell.

bc3114 ,

luajit is small, fast(well, it can jit), and has a small but complete standard library and can do FFI pretty easily, should be ideal for most homelab usecase


<span style="color:#323232;">ldd $(which luajit)                                                                                
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffee9dc7000)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        libm.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0x00007fb4db618000)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007fb4db613000)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007fb4db5f3000)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007fb4db3ca000)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fb4db799000)
</span>
cmhe ,

What about Lua/Luajit?

In most scripting languages you have the interpreter binary and the (standard) libraries as separate files. But creating self-extracting executables, that clean up after themselves can easily be done by wrapping them in a shell script.

IMO, if low dependencies and small size is really important, you could also just write your script in a low level compiled language (C, Rust, Zig, …), link it statically (e.g. with musl) and execute that.

slembcke ,

I use Lua for this sort of thing. Not my favorite language, but it works well for it. Easy to build for any system in the last 20-30 years, and probably the next 20 too. The executable is small so you can just redistribute it or stick it in version control.

bastion ,

Micropython.

davel , (edited )
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

That does seem to be just one, maybe two small files, and no dependencies. And a built in map() function.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

Only 5 years ago, everybody would be singing and shouting “perl”.

Nowadays it is python that has taken this position (even though Perl is still there and can do so much more).

Shareni ,

More like

20 years ago - perl

10 years ago - python

Nowadays - go

possiblylinux127 ,

Go isn’t a scripting language

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Go isn’t a scripting language, and it isn’t a system language either, despite what Wikipedia currently says. To be a system language, a language should support assembly language and shouldn’t require an embedded garbage collector. And if you’re going to make a compiled language anyway, why not make it capable of system work? Go is a platypus that’s popular with devops for some reason—probably Google’s clout in the industry.

possiblylinux127 ,

Perl is a pain to work with

Python is a lot less pain

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Why would you say that Perl “can do so much more” than Python? That assertion sounds indefensible.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

LOL It is one of the most well known things about perl that the language is as mighty as probably no other programming language.

en.philosophy.perlzemi.com/…/20190911130832.html

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Right, so you’ve got nothing to back it up. Sure, 1990s, let’s get you back to bed.

vzq ,

I can’t really think of anything that’s less frustrating than sh and ticks all your boxes. You can try TCL but it’s bound to be a shit show. It was painful to use two decades ago.

Perl is a step up in terms of developer comfort, but it’s at the same time too big and too awkward to use.

Maybe a statically linked Python?

digdilem ,

Perl is a step up in terms of developer comfort, but it’s at the same time too big and too awkward to use.

How do you mean?

It’s already on nearly every distro, so there’s no core size unless you lean into modules. The scripts aren’t exactly big either.

vzq ,

He doesn’t have bash. I’m not sure I’ve seen a system this millennium with Perl but not bash.

possiblylinux127 ,

Python is what you want. You can install it on just about any system.

Other than that maybe Lua but that will be hell.

digdilem ,

Python is what you want. You can install it on just about any system.

Perl and bash are already there, no need to install anything.

Nibodhika ,

Realistically whatever problems you see in python will be there for any other language. Python is the most ubiquitously available thing after bash for a reason.

Also you mentioned provisioning scripts, is that Ansible? If so python is already there, if you mean really just bash scripts I can tell you that does not scale well. Also if you already have some scriptsz what language are they on? Why not write the function there?

Also you’re running syncthing on these machines, I don’t think python is larger than that (but I might be wrong).

gomp OP ,

Also you mentioned provisioning scripts, is that Ansible? If so python is already there, if you mean really just bash scripts I can tell you that does not scale well. Also if you already have some scriptsz what language are they on? Why not write the function there??

Currently it’s mostly nixos, plus a custom thing that generates preconfigured openwrt images that I then deploy manually. I have a mess of other vms and stuff, but I plan to phase out everything and migrate to nixos (except the openwrt stuff, since nixos doesn’t run on mips).

I don’t really need to run this specific synchthing-ID script except on my PC (I do the provisioning from there), but I have written scripts that run on my router (using busybox sh) and I was wondering if there is a “goto” scripting that I can use everywhere.

atzanteol ,

I don’t have python (or even bash) available in all my systems, and so my goto language for script is usually sh (yes, posix sh), which in all honestly is quite frustrating for manipulating data.

Why are you making it hard on yourself? apt/dnf install a language to use and use it.

x1gma ,

The smallest footprint for an actual scripting probably will be posix sh - since you already have it ready.

A slightly bigger footprint would be Python or Lua.

If you can drop your requirement for actual scripting and are willing to add a compile step, Go and it’s ecosystem is pretty dang powerful and it’s really easy to learn for small automation tasks.

Personally, with the requirement of not adding too much space for runtimes, I’d write it in go. You don’t need a runtime, you can compile it to a really small zero dependency lib and you have clean and readable code that you can extend, test and maintain easily.

furzegulo ,

i use mostly python and lua.

possiblylinux127 ,

Lua

Shutters

RedWizard ,
@RedWizard@hexbear.net avatar

Powershell, yeah I said it!

Toribor ,
@Toribor@corndog.social avatar

Unironically Powershell is great and learning it has propelled me through the last 12 years of my career as a Sysadmin. My biggest complaints with it are generally Windows complaints or due to legacy powershell modules.

Tovervlag ,

Wanted to say this too but it really depends on what you’re using it for.

possiblylinux127 ,

Only good on Windows

digdilem ,

Oh dude, you are so wrong!

Powershell is available for linux and will run the same modules that have made it such a success on Windows. Want to fire up vmware containers or get a list of vms? Want to talk to Exchange servers? Azure? AWX? $large-corporate-thing? Powershell is a very good tool for that, even if it smells very Microsofty.

The linux version works well - it has some quirks (excessive logging, a MS repo that needs manual approving that breaks automatic updates) but aside from those, it just works. I have several multi-year scripts that tick away nicely in the background.

Lemmchen ,
@Lemmchen@feddit.org avatar

No one has mentioned PHP yet? Man, times really have changed.

possiblylinux127 ,

For data processing?

digdilem ,

I used it for scripting a decade after everyone else, but even I have to admit PHP is rarely the best choice now.

fubarx ,

Tried bash, Make, and awk/sed. All hit brick walls. Finally landed on pyinvoke. Two dependencies to install on any new machine. Never had problems. Also, easy to debug and modify as projects evolve.

gomp OP ,

I use just for that usecase - highly recommended

silasmariner ,

If you can, just use Perl. Probably installed on your systems, even the ones without python.

digdilem ,

So often the right answer, perl. It’s a shame that it’s so unfashionable these days.

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